United Methodist Judical Council Meets [Archive]

Steven E. Webster

04-29-2006, 08:51 AM

Here's a link to the Methodist Federation for Social Action (MFSA).

http://www.mfsaweb.org/

They led a direct action at the United Methodist Judicial Council this past few days urging the Council to reconsider their decision #1032 allowing United Methodist pastors to exclude LGBT persons from membership.

Although MFSA has not always had the smoothest of relationships to Soulforce, it appears that they are more and more taking up the methods of Gandhi and King. Good for them! Soulforce obviously can't do it all.

The next United Methodist General Conference will be about two years from now. If the Judicial Council does not reverse its decision #1032, there will certainly be a big struggle over the issue of membership of LGBT persons in the United Methodist Church (UMC). The United Methodist Church is a "mainline" Protestant denomination like the United Church of Christ (UCC). It would be a shame to seen the mainline Protestants go two different directions: the UCC to greater inclusion and the UMC towards exclusion and more Fundamentalist control.

Steven Webster

Steven E. Webster

04-29-2006, 09:40 AM

Here's a link to a good opinion piece:

http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/news/opinion/14445762.htm

Steven E. Webster

05-01-2006, 06:51 AM

Friends,
Either Monday or Tuesday May 1st or 2nd the United Methodist Judicial Council will announce it's decision on a motion to reconsider decision 1032. If they vote to reconsider, than there may be further proceedings later this year. Or they may make an immediate decision either to set-aside or to uphold their decision no. 1032. Please pray for those of us who are United Methodist!

keltic63

05-01-2006, 08:22 AM

I've been reading this Steven and thinking about a response. So far, I have nothing to offer. I do want you to know that this thread isn't being ignored.

and of course, prayer is good, you've got that from me.

Vanessa White

05-01-2006, 11:14 AM

Hi Steven: I also would like you to know that I have been reading your posts and following a little bit. I am feeling rather powerless right now, however. My family and I just made an active choice to join a Methodist church two years ago, believing that they were an embracing denomination. It almost feels too close to consider how that could be damaged for us. Haven't really known how to post before today. I will follow the coverage of what is decided or upheld by the council. Prayers for all, Methodists and non alike. Peace be with you all, my friends, Vanessa:pray: :pray: :pray:

keltic63

05-01-2006, 01:10 PM

I find it interesting that this is not being discussed on the UMC discussion boards.

suzer1013

05-01-2006, 02:48 PM

I'm sure it will be discussed, once a decision is rendered.

I have left the UMC, with the November Judicial Council decision being one of the primary reasons. Like Vanessa, I had joined thinking it was an embracing church. I haven't read the boards here or over at UMC lately -- just checked them today. I've been feeling a need to protect myself from all of this lately -- it just hurts too much. In fact, I think I'm distancing myself from Christianity or any organized religion altogether -- there's just too much pain involved for me.

Still, my curiosity gets the better of me, so I'll be keeping an eye on things at least for a while.

I'm so glad some Soulforce voices were added to the discussion on the UMC boards -- it makes them a bit more bearable.

Love to all....

Susan :)

awediot

05-01-2006, 03:17 PM

Suzer1013,
I do understand the need to distance... please though, keep in mind the difference of distancing from organized religion, Christians, and Christianity all together... They are quite different things. Ya know baby/bathwater, nose/face thing...

Jesus save me from your followers...

NathanATX

05-01-2006, 03:41 PM

I find it interesting that this is not being discussed on the UMC discussion boards.

I fixed that. :)

Steven E. Webster

05-02-2006, 01:20 PM

Friends,
Here's the decision just posted.

http://archives.umc.org/interior_judicial.asp?mid=263&JDID=1120&JDMOD=VWD&SN=1001&EN=1042

As you read the decision and the dissent you will see that our United Methodist Judicial Council is bitterly divided as is the whole denomination. From the signatures, it looks like it was a 5-4 decision (9 voting members of the Judicial Council.

This will be the big battle leading up to the next General Conference.

I have some ideas for a direct action that individuals might take involving exposing oneself to a church trial. Lay persons are also subject to church trials in the United Methodist Church although such trials have been very rare for the last century (I don't know of any, as a matter of fact).

Are there any members of the United Methodist Church in this forum? What are your reactions? Ideas?

Steven Webster

Vanessa White

05-02-2006, 01:27 PM

I am a member, although only in the last two years. I am extremely disappointed and saddened by this. I don't have any ideas right now, I feel personally rejected by the church itself, although our pastor has been a tremendous force in helping us to feel welcome in our congregation. I really feel numb about what to do or say.

suzer1013

05-02-2006, 02:11 PM

Well, then, it looks like I made the right decision in January to leave the United Methodist Church. I am not one of the strong ones who can stay and fight for GLBT rights. I just want to belong to a church where I am not called sinful because of who I love, and where a pastor does not have the right to deny membership because of who I love.

At this point, church (any church) is not where I find God, or Jesus' teachings. I find that when I look at the ocean and the sky, when I do a kindness unto others, when someone does a kindness unto me. I find God in the trees, in the veins of a leaf, in the laugh of a baby, in the wind, and in the perfectness of a seashell. I don't need the UMC or any church to tell me my worth. The UMC should be embarrassed and ashamed of its actions, and the actions of some of its members.

Susan

NathanATX

05-02-2006, 02:51 PM

I am so ticked off.

Vanessa White

05-02-2006, 02:54 PM

I agree with Susan that I define my relationship with God and Jesus Christ on the beauty that is around me every day. But I also appreciated being part of a church community that welcomed me along with my family. A part of me believes that knowing the church feels this way sends a message to our daughter that we are devalued as a family in some way. This is really painful.......:(

keltic63

05-02-2006, 03:51 PM

even with the dissenting opinion, which most people will never see (for lack of knowledge that it even exists) the message that is being sent is clear to LGBT people (and others, I'm sure) "You're not welcome here!"

Yes, I know there are groups, churches, organizations, and individuals in the UMC who are welcoming and affirming, but the OFFICIAL word is "Membership is for a select few, and definitely not 'your kind'." Very sad, indeed.

suzer1013

05-02-2006, 04:21 PM

Oh, and yes, when I post expressing my sorrow on the UMC message boards, once again scripture is thrown at me and I am mocked. How on earth can these people consider themselves Christians?

Thank you, Keltic, for your response over there.

I really am not sure I would make a good Soulforce member. It is very hard for me to see the humanity in these people, let alone find any kind of love in my heart for them.

They will NOT make me cry. (But they already have:'( )

Susan

Steven E. Webster

05-03-2006, 07:22 AM

suzer1013

05-03-2006, 04:58 PM

Steven -- I really enjoyed your blog. My brain is on overload right now (it is not so hard to get to that point lately :rolleyes: ), so I'm not sure I have a good response. As for me, I'm in so much pain right now, I can't imagine putting myself in a place to go through a church trial. There are certainly plenty of churches in Georgia that would be willing to serve me up on a silver platter, so to speak.

Wow. It would take someone much stronger than I to do that, and they would have my ultimate love and respect. I got an e-mail from the MFSA today, which had some suggestions on action to take. Did you get that one from them? Perhaps it's a place to start.

I'm afraid I am at the point of "running away" altogether from religion -- it's just the space I'm in. I feel rather guilty about it, too. I once thought I could help work toward a solution (which is how I found out about Soulforce), but now I'm not so sure about that. I feel too weak. Perhaps I just need a good long break.

Do you know whatever happened with the letter written by the 75 GLBT pastors to the Judicial Council? I'm wondering what impact, if any, that has had.

Susan

Vanessa White

05-04-2006, 09:26 AM

Steven: Although the realities of it are difficult to consider, reading your blog gave me additional information about what this all means. I did mistakenly believe, that, since I have a progressive, embracing pastor, that my family and I would be free of any problems with this directly, although the decision itself was disturbing about the church in general. So, now that I know that my pastor cannot protect me from removal, if a trial were to result in that, I only see my options as leaving the church, and stating fully my reasons for doing so, or to go forward in redemptive suffering, and become fully involved in the process of educating others within the church of the realities of being a gay person and loved by God in the same sentence. The latter holds a tremendous emotional risk for me, because my partner believes that we are sinners by being gay anyway (talk about your polar opposites) and I know without a doubt that she would not even want to publicly admit to being a lesbian, let alone willingly participate in a trial or redemptive suffering. I need many thoughtful prayers on this from whomever is watching and reading. Susan, I hear you clearly about taking a break, and a part of me feels much the same way. But, I have our eight year old child to consider and what kind of message I need to send her to carry her into adulthood. I am so grateful for all of you here, I kind of feel like I can go forward with most anything if I can rely on this support system. Vanessa:love: :pray:

dewdrop_world

05-04-2006, 01:23 PM

Friends,
I refer you to my blog at www.morevile.blogspot.com.

There I've just published my take on the Judicial Council decision. I believe this may be an "opportunity" for voluntary redemptive suffering. That is a serious matter. Anyone want to dicuss how one would approach the current situation in the United Methodist Church using the principles of Soulforce?

Steven Webster

Your article inspired me to Swiftian modest proposal...

"The Discipline allows for anyone in or outside of a local congregation to bring charges against a lay member, a trial would be held not by the local church, but by the district--and all members of the local church in question would be excluded from serving on the trial court."

If any congregant can bring charges against any other congregant, what would happen if hundreds/thousands of divorced and remarried couples got hauled into district court for living unrepentantly in sin? Apart from tying up resources, eventually someone would have to make a choice -- state explicitly that divorced/remarried couples could not be thrown out of the church based on decision 1032 (rendering the biblical logic explicitly hypocritical), or recognize that the decision is discriminatory in its manner of enforcement.

I mean this, of course, with the same degree of seriousness that Swift meant his modest proposal (http://art-bin.com/art/omodest.html) -- and just as his proposal would not have been a wise course of action, neither would this. It illustrates, though, how easy it would be to demonstrate that the church is not serious about enforcing this decision universally.

James

keltic63

05-04-2006, 01:31 PM

Your article inspired me to Swiftian modest proposal...

"The Discipline allows for anyone in or outside of a local congregation to bring charges against a lay member, a trial would be held not by the local church, but by the district--and all members of the local church in question would be excluded from serving on the trial court."

If any congregant can bring charges against any other congregant, what would happen if hundreds/thousands of divorced and remarried couples got hauled into district court for living unrepentantly in sin? Apart from tying up resources, eventually someone would have to make a choice -- state explicitly that divorced/remarried couples could not be thrown out of the church based on decision 1032 (rendering the biblical logic explicitly hypocritical), or recognize that the decision is discriminatory in its manner of enforcement.

I mean this, of course, with the same degree of seriousness that Swift meant his modest proposal (http://art-bin.com/art/omodest.html) -- and just as his proposal would not have been a wise course of action, neither would this. It illustrates, though, how easy it would be to demonstrate that the church is not serious about enforcing this decision universally.

James

you need to get over to the UMC forums and read pastorsteve's response. divorced/remarried get a "pass" from him!

Vanessa White

05-04-2006, 01:47 PM

Yeah, how about that Keltic? Meanwhile, we just need to "get it right" and then we are good to go. I just got brave and emailed my pastor that I need to talk with her about 1032. I have never even come out to her completely, but today is a good day to start, I guess. I cannot be less than I am.

awediot

05-04-2006, 02:21 PM

More power to you Vanessa. Good luck and prayers...

I have been following some of this out of a near morbid curiosity. I am not a church goer. Never have, maybe will be someday. As such, I have no advice to offer. The legalistic references to courts and trials, acceptable member requirements and threats unless one conforms is a stripping away of ignorance that doesn't leave me longing to be embraced. I thought church was to be a retreat from all that real world pressure. Not a free ride or a moral placebo, but not a dictatorial kingdom all unto itself either. I honestly don't get it, and I hope the benefits outweigh the cost.

Vanessa White

05-04-2006, 02:37 PM

Thanks, awediot. I have come to believe, and what I need to impress upon our daughter, is that as important as it is to feel part of the church community, if to be part of that community I have to reconsider the expectations/judgments of the church itself, then maybe I don't belong there with my family. Especially since absolution will be given for others whose supposed "sins" measure my own. I know that God and Jesus Christ do not view me in this way, I firmly believe that. It is unfortunate that some of my fellow human beings are just waiting for me to repent and "get it right". Thankfully, I feel like I have a lot of it right already, that's why a part of me is so ready to stand strong and say enough is enough. I can say that today, anyway...... Please keep that love coming, all!!!! Vanessa:love: :love:

Zerbie

05-04-2006, 02:41 PM

Oh Vanessa! That is exciting and scary and all kinds of wonderful! I wish you strong courage and faith in your conversation with your pastor, and I bet it will go great!

Let us know, okay?

Best,

Zerbie
:love: :pray:

Btw - I for one, am *proud* of you!!! :love:

Vanessa White

05-04-2006, 02:47 PM

Thanks, for all that you have offered, Zerbie. I have a good feeling about it, I think that she already knows based on things that she has said in passing to me and to the congregation. I could be sacrificing more than I can comprehend at this point, which I have been fearing for awhile in relation to many things happening in my life. But, I trust it will all be for the good. "Our God is an AWESOME God, he reigns from Heaven above with wisdom, power and love. OUR GOD IS AN AWESOME GOD!" Peace and love to you, Zerbie, Vanessa:pray: :love:

suzer1013

05-04-2006, 03:02 PM

Vanessa --

I am sending my thoughts, prayers, good vibes and everything else I can muster to you!

I tried to gently prod my pastor and congregation on this issue for the three years I attended, and while I got alot of heads nodding in agreement, there was no action taken. Still, I had alot of people thank me for speaking up. You may end up finding at some point that there are other folks in your congregation who will appreciate your openness and standing up for what is right.

From what you have said, I suspect your pastor will be supportive of you. At least, that is what I pray for. You are brave and courageous, and I applaud you!

Susan :love: :pray:

suzer1013

05-04-2006, 03:16 PM

As for what is going on on the UMC boards, I simply cannot understand the logic (or lack thereof) that leads people like Pastor Steve to believe that remarriage after divorce (which Jesus says should not be allowed) can somehow be repented of and the new couple can then continue living a sinless life. Hmmmm. Aren't they entering right back into the "sin" of remarriage. How come in that situation, they can "pass Go and collect $200" so to speak, while homosexuals (for sake of argument, who have "repented", and of whom Jesus said nothing) cannot continue to live in their relationship without continuing the "sin"? That makes no sense to me. Of course, fundamentalism in general makes no sense to me -- I simply cannot understand the Bible in that way.

Sometimes I feel like the time to argue is OVER. Sometimes I feel like these people just get a chance to continue to spew their ignorance and hatred and demean us because they get a response from us. But on the other hand, if no one responds to their spiritual assaults, their viewpoint will remain unchallenged in the church and decisions like 1032 will continue unchecked.

I also have a hard time with the idea of trying to remain unified -- of both sides still sitting down to communion together. After someone has demeaned my humanity, no -- I don't want to sit down to communion with them. It seems a bit to me like a Jew at a concentration camp sitting down with the Nazis to tea just before they are to be gassed. (OK, perhaps that's a bit extreme, but you get the point.) It's like, let's just act all "nice, nice" and forget about all the mean things I just said about you. I admit to a lack of knowledge about the history of MLK, Jr., but I don't think he ever sat down to lunch with the KKK, did he? Perhaps he did, or with some other type of group that was against him, I don't know.

I wish sometimes that I could let this all go, move on with my life and not give one whit about religion. But the OCD part of me, and the part of me that has always fought for what is "fair," compels me back to speaking up. It's exhausting, sometimes.

Susan

keltic63

05-04-2006, 03:44 PM

As for what is going on on the UMC boards, I simply cannot understand the logic (or lack thereof) that leads people like Pastor Steve to believe that remarriage after divorce (which Jesus says should not be allowed) can somehow be repented of and the new couple can then continue living a sinless life. Hmmmm. Aren't they entering right back into the "sin" of remarriage. How come in that situation, they can "pass Go and collect $200" so to speak, while homosexuals (for sake of argument, who have "repented", and of whom Jesus said nothing) cannot continue to live in their relationship without continuing the "sin"? That makes no sense to me. Of course, fundamentalism in general makes no sense to me -- I simply cannot understand the Bible in that way.

There's your answer! if the divorce rate is at 50%, then it stands to reason that many couples sitting in the congregation are divorced and remarried. What minister is going to call that adultery and rule that they can't be members, when these are the people paying his salary?

Sometimes I feel like the time to argue is OVER. Sometimes I feel like these people just get a chance to continue to spew their ignorance and hatred and demean us because they get a response from us. But on the other hand, if no one responds to their spiritual assaults, their viewpoint will remain unchallenged in the church and decisions like 1032 will continue unchecked.

arguing seems pointless, but these people are doing damage, spiritual violence, AND, they are the ones in charge. They will continue to squash reasonable voices, as has happened and continues to happen in the Southern Baptist Convention.

NathanATX

05-04-2006, 04:15 PM

Wouldn't it be powerful if divorced people started putting themselves on trial?

keltic63

05-04-2006, 04:21 PM

OK, I put myself out there in a big way. Perhaps I should go hide for awhile. :eek:

suzer1013

05-04-2006, 04:40 PM

OK, I put myself out there in a big way. Perhaps I should go hide for awhile. :eek:

Hide? Never! You have been amazingly open, honest and courageous. I'm jealous (in a good way) of your ability to stand up and say what needs to be said, to show your integrity and question those who would oppress you.

Well done, Keltic! You are awesome! :D

Susan

Steven E. Webster

05-04-2006, 06:13 PM

. . .arguing seems pointless, but these people are doing damage, spiritual violence, AND, they are the ones in charge. They will continue to squash reasonable voices, as has happened and continues to happen in the Southern Baptist Convention.

The United Methodist Church is not quite like the Southern Baptists. The Bishops (who actually don't have the authority to overrule the Judicial Council) have spoken out against the Judicial Council's decision and expect there to be a debate about it at the next General Conference. In fact, at the last United Methodist General Conference in 2004 Soulforce was able to negotiate (with the Bishops) a Soulforce-led demonstration on the floor of the General Conference. The demonstration went peacefully and without arrests. It was an awesome expression of our dissent. That could never happen with the current Southern Baptist leadership and structure.

At the Southern Baptist Convention there will be no debate on their anti-gay stand. The Baptists have a powerful presidency (the United Methodist Church has no President and no presiding bishop) that has been under the control of the fundamentalists for a couple of decades. The Methodists have one branch of their church government, the Judicial Council, that seems to be under the control of fundamentalists for the time being--but the decision that just came down was a 5-4 decision. The dissenters on the Judicial Council have given powerful voice to their dissent. Most of the fundamentalists on the Judicial Council will be up for re-election at the next General Conference and there are people working to elect moderates or progressives in their place.

The General Conference (our legislative branch) can overrule the Judicial Council by passing legislation that cannot be interpreted the way the Judicial Council has interpreted (or mis-interpreted) current legislation.

The United Methodist Church is in danger of going the way of the Southern Baptists, but it's not gone that far yet. The fundamentalists are fighting for control, but the moderates and progressives are waking up to the danger. There is still the opportunity to voice dissent and work for change.

NonLemming

05-04-2006, 08:31 PM

dewdrop_world

05-04-2006, 10:28 PM

I allowed myself to get a leetle bit punchy (though I hope compassionately so!) on the umc forums :D

---
Just a few possibly disconnected comments --

Asburyguy:
Spoke like a true Western Jurisdiction Methodist..rules...we don't need no stinkin rules...

This points to something I've never understood -- how it is that religion came to be defined primarily in terms of following the rules. Some external guidance is necessary (but the amount depends a lot on each person's natural temperament -- some people are comforted by a very precise guidelines, while others find for themselves that too much emphasis on the rules strangles the life out of their relationship with God). I feel very strongly, though, that external moral guidance is only the beginning of the development of one's own moral compass. If the rules remain external forever, what has been gained?

In other words, it's entirely possible to follow all the rules to the letter (Ned Flanders: "I even followed the stuff that contradicts the other stuff"), but still draw no closer to God.

At my most cynical I wonder if what's really going on is that people don't want to do the hard work of letting go and releasing the obstacles to transformation (the obstacles don't give up without a fight!). I don't blame them -- I can tell you from my own experience it's searing, at times agonizing work to confront your deepest fears. It may be easier just to have a set of rules, and if you follow them, everything will be okay.

For whatever reason, God has me on a path that does not place obedience at the center. It hasn't been an easy path, but it's been fruitful in ways I couldn't have imagined when I started. There's a lot for which we can rejoice together, but unfortunately it seems some people can't be satisfied unless they belittle people whose life journeys are different from theirs. It's a poignant realization.

True to Him:
I think you would come a long way if you stopped identifying your self solely on the basis of your favorite sin.

I don't think this is quite right. If you look carefully, you can see that it's much more than gay people defining themselves in terms of their sexuality. In fact, society defines everybody very strongly in terms of their gender identity and sexual orientation. It's just that when people conform to expected gender roles, the definition is transparent so nobody notices.

When somebody doesn't fit into societal expectations, either by not being straight or through exhibiting traits of the gender they were not born into, society has a nasty habit of failing them very badly. We can do better.

You might see alot less discrimination also.

To echo one of Jesus remarks to Pontius Pilate -- it is you who have identified it as discrimination, not I!

I'm actually not concerned with what you say about me. My relationship with God is strong -- believe me, with what I've been through, my most painful feeling in this discussion is a measure of sadness that you and others are so completely unwilling to share in my joy. (My hardest struggles had nothing to do with my sexuality, by the way.)

I am concerned with those who are so vulnerable and unsure of themselves that they might put their trust in you, instead of in God. (God does not need your approval or recognition to heal anyone from fear.)

James

Steven E. Webster

05-05-2006, 06:48 AM

Either you embrace the way they vote or you choose to leave and go somewhere else, ne: start your own church, if that's what it takes to bring you fulfillment.

It's obvious all humans do not pray the same way. Find your way, who are they to hold you back?

I know your intentions are good, and you have a point--however, it reminds me also of the saying "America, Love it or Leave It" that was thrown in the face of anti-Viet Nam War dissenters. I don't want to be forced to move to Canada as long as I have a voice and vote for change in the United States. (Still, there comes a time for some people--including friends of mine--when moving to Canada is the best option.)

I simply refuse to give up on the United Methodist Church. Sure, I could cross the street and attend the United Church of Christ (since this is a part of the country that has a lot of UCC congregations). But in the meantime the United Methodist Church will continue to baptize and raise LGBT children and inflict the same spiritual violence upon them.

It is true, that one needs to care for one's own soul, and not allow the church's spiritual violence to do more harm than one can bear. This is why we need the Soulforce teaching and training. The practice of nonviolence should be good for our souls. If it isn't, we might not be doing it right.

Someone from the ML King Center once told Mel White that he could not give up on Jerry Falwell--to give up on one's adversary is itself an act of violence. The practice of nonviolence means telling the truth to our adversary in love relentlessly. This isn't easy, and maybe its not for everybody. That's why I need an organization like Soulforce.

Vanessa White

05-05-2006, 08:56 AM

Steven: Your words ring true to me and are good for me to read this morning. I do not want to give up on the UMC, although I know that if Ifeel defeated or tired, and no longer to raise myself in defense, I may leave at some point. To where, I do not know. But I feel that I have too much to gain, and to offer others in my congregation, adversaries or not, to give up on it. I think that my congregation may welcome the information, and the opportunity to act, or at least support my action. I could be totally wrong and end up being unhappily surprised. But, I feel compelled to give it my best shot. Maybe the fundamentalists will be voted out in a year or two, maybe change will come by the influence of the masses, but I do know that for me to not feel like I can never set foot in my local church again, for the moment I have to separate the higher levels of the church from my local pastor and congregation. And, I need to continue to pray for the best outcome that it can be. Vanessa

NonLemming

05-05-2006, 10:53 PM

I know your intentions are good, and you have a point--however, it reminds me also of the saying "America, Love it or Leave It" that was thrown in the face of anti-Viet Nam War dissenters. I don't want to be forced to move to Canada as long as I have a voice and vote for change in the United States. (Still, there comes a time for some people--including friends of mine--when moving to Canada is the best option.)

I simply refuse to give up on the United Methodist Church. Sure, I could cross the street and attend the United Church of Christ (since this is a part of the country that has a lot of UCC congregations). But in the meantime the United Methodist Church will continue to baptize and raise LGBT children and inflict the same spiritual violence upon them.

It is true, that one needs to care for one's own soul, and not allow the church's spiritual violence to do more harm than one can bear. This is why we need the Soulforce teaching and training. The practice of nonviolence should be good for our souls. If it isn't, we might not be doing it right.

Someone from the ML King Center once told Mel White that he could not give up on Jerry Falwell--to give up on one's adversary is itself an act of violence. The practice of nonviolence means telling the truth to our adversary in love relentlessly. This isn't easy, and maybe its not for everybody. That's why I need an organization like Soulforce.

I hear you and respect what you are saying. If you want to remain a part of that group, then you will indeed have to change it from the inside. The analogy of "America...love it or leave it" was a good one, I had not looked at it that way. There are times when it is worth the work needed inside, and sometimes not worth the effort. Having a particular sect of Christianity approve of me means nothing to me so I'd willingly dismiss it. However it does mean something to you. So you must do all you can to help them see the light. Best of luck!

dewdrop_world

05-05-2006, 11:03 PM

Having a particular sect of Christianity approve of me means nothing to me so I'd willingly dismiss it. However it does mean something to you. So you must do all you can to help them see the light. Best of luck!
It isn't about approval -- like you, I need no more than I have already. It's about speaking truth to those who would turn the church into an instrument of social control (if not oppression).

James

Montanna

05-06-2006, 02:39 AM

It's about speaking the truth to those who would turn the church into an instrument of social control (if not oppression)..

Speaking the truth to those who wish to use the church that way is necessary. Once you have done it, give it time to work. Withdraw. Heal. Love. Care for yourself. Do good works. Avoid further explanation. Even as things move through a bad decision, they will change. Bless you for speaking the truth. I am trying to change some Presbyterian minds myself. It's pretty scary and gut wrenching. No one person can do everything. We just keep chipping away. We'll get there.

NonLemming

05-06-2006, 01:47 PM

.

Speaking the truth to those who wish to use the church that way is necessary. Once you have done it, give it time to work. Withdraw. Heal. Love. Care for yourself. Do good works. Avoid further explanation. Even as things move through a bad decision, they will change. Bless you for speaking the truth. I am trying to change some Presbyterian minds myself. It's pretty scary and gut wrenching. No one person can do everything. We just keep chipping away. We'll get there.

I sincerely hope you will. You have some powerful addicts's minds to change. Who said religion was the opiate of the masses?

Best of luck.

Vanessa White

05-08-2006, 09:27 AM

FYI: I just wanted to give everyone a small update on my Pastor and my going to her regarding this. She was not able to respond to my email, but saw me in church yesterday and said to me that she got my email, and she did want to have a conversation with me about it. She said not to be worried, and that there are many more progressive United Methodists out there to help, or something like that. I felt so much better! Again, I did not even make any full disclosure to her, not even in the email, but she was all ready to assure me that everything would be okay. I know even more now that it will, and that she is on our side. Maybe a trial is not in my future, I hope, but maybe the support that I find in my own backyard will be bigger than I ever dreamed. Praise it! Peace all, Vanessa :love:

Zerbie

05-08-2006, 03:46 PM

I thought as much!!!

YAY Vanessa! :D :love:

I had a very good feeling about your pastor - what a relief that she said that to you about progessive Methodists, and everything working out okay. Now you don't have to hang on tenterhooks wondering how she stands on the issue. I'm proud of you for reaching out to her. And I'm completely convinced that you are going to find more support than you bargained for from the people in your life, even those to whom you haven't yet "disclosed." My sense about all this is, they are all going to rally round you and you will be pleasantly surprised by their outpouring of care and solidarity. I'm glad for you.

:love: :love: :love: