A Pattern I'm Noticing.

[Here2Learn22]

I suppose you could describe me as a "Jew adrift." I have very little to hold onto when forging an identity for myself. I don't live with any Jews, I don't work with any Jews, and my school has very few Jews. I've always had to guard and shape my identity for myself, by myself. It seems to me that a lot of people on these boards have gone through a very similar identity crisis. Now, I hesitate to compare the journeys of two different groups (of course there are gay and lesbian Jews), but it's interesting for me to see the interconnectedness of the struggle for identity that many disadvantaged people go through because of race, class, religion, sexuality, gender, sex, age, or their mental or physical health.

Keeping that in mind, I'm beginning to see a pattern between Christian homosexuals, and their struggle for an identity. Now, I've worked with many gay friends who are grappling with their religion and their identity while struggling to except themselves. It is a vicious and terrible process, and I think the problem lies in the way Christian practices and theories are taught and expressed.

So from my expirience, when you go to Church your clergyman attempts to teach you the Christian Dogma. He/She teaches you the rules.

They explain: This is what is what. These are the rules. You have to follow them. I am speaking for God.

Firstly, I understand that I'm generalizing. From what I've gathered I can tell that many of you attend wonderful accepting Churches that simply follow Christ's golden rule: Love God, and love your neighbor as you love yourself. I am not saying that all Christian clergy act this way, but I'm sure we've all wittnessed and seen a lot of this sort of rhetoric.

Reform Judaism is fundamentally different from Christianity. No I'm not simply referring to our differing beliefs on Jesus. In Reform Judaism we are taught to question and study everything. Question our leaders, question God, question your Rabbi. There's a reason why Rabbi means teacher and not leader. Rabbis guide and assist their fellow Jews in anyway they can through wisdom and love (which I'm sure thousands of Christian clergymen do with their fellow Christians), but Rabbis do not claim to speak for god, and that I think is why you find many gay and lesbian Jews much more comfortable with their sexuality. Claiming to teach religious fact is, in my opinion, dangerous. It leaves no wiggle room, no exceptions, and (as is evidence of Mel White's wonderfully prepared Soulforce pamphlet on the bible and homosexuality) allows for poor interpretations of religous texts to not be questioned by a majority of followers. I think that many Christian churches leave no room for a fluid discussion on religious practice, and rather only have discussions on the implication of religious law.

I sincerely apologize if I've offended anyone here out of arrogance. I know that many of you are rooted deeply in your faith as am I. I know I'm generalizing, and I would never think the above is true of all Christian congregations, but I do think that this type of practice is very common, and the source for many Christian homosexual's pain.

Your thoughts?

[Matt Algren]

It depends on the denomination and the preacher, really. I've seen systems where the preacher/priest/whatever isn't questioned ever, and where what he (not usually she) says is gospel. I've also seen systems where the preacher openly encourages people to question things, whether the Bible, church doctrine, or themselves.

I'm fortunate enough to be in one of the latter now. Not terribly long ago he told people to question everything, and he said it from the pulpit.

In the end, I suppose we choose which kind of leadership we want. If my minister were replaced with someone who got his nose out of joint because someone disagreed with him, I'd be gone within a couple months.

[keltic63]

In the end, I suppose we choose which kind of leadership we want. If my minister were replaced with someone who got his nose out of joint because someone disagreed with him, I'd be gone within a couple months.

Amen to that!

and it looks like I'll be turning in that resignation right after Christmas.

[Matt Algren]

Aw, crap. I was hoping things could be worked out.

[antiochian]

Hello Here,

You are right. There are some churches that even consider themselves infallible. I used to blindly believe that about my church, but I had to step back and think, yes think. Institutional religions will never be perfect, because they are made up of people. There are good selfless people in churches and egomaniacal sh*theads.

Yes, many Christians are taught they have no right to think for themselves. It may not be expressed in those exact words, but such is implied. Religious celebrities do not take kindly to people disagreeing with them. The whole thing feels very cultic. I envy the freedom you feel as a Reform Jew (although I imagine your Orthodox sisters and brothers may be in the same boat as many Christians with regards to issues of sexuality).

We were given minds for a reason, dontcha think?

[Gregory_de_Bois]

I definitely see that in many churches. However, the episcopal church I attend is very, very different. Within (most) episcopal churches there is a general spirit of inquiry. Even the Bible tells, nay commands, us to test everything. Thanks for the post!

[Gennee]

I have been blessed to have had ministers who told his flock to know the bible for ourselves. It says in 1Thess. 5:21 to test everything. From time to time I do some in-depth studies ad it has opened my eyes and heart to deeper things in God.


Gennee


:pray::reading:

[Gennee]

Hello Here,

You are right. There are some churches that even consider themselves infallible. I used to blindly believe that about my church, but I had to step back and think, yes think. Institutional religions will never be perfect, because they are made up of people. There are good selfless people in churches and egomaniacal sh*theads.

Yes, many Christians are taught they have no right to think for themselves. It may not be expressed in those exact words, but such is implied. Religious celebrities do not take kindly to people disagreeing with them. The whole thing feels very cultic. I envy the freedom you feel as a Reform Jew (although I imagine your Orthodox sisters and brothers may be in the same boat as many Christians with regards to issues of sexuality).

We were given minds for a reason, dontcha think?

It's part of the reason why the world see Christians as simple and ignorant. I have met and know Christian who are smart, innovative and creative. Every one should keeep studying and learning.

Gennee

[BenL]

Ben,

I find that most of the time the questions are more important than the answers.

I thought about just throwing that out without explanation to see if it resonated. I will only add that the process of questioning is as vital in growing one's faith as it is in growing one's knowledge. The prophets in the Hebrew scriptures were particularly irascible when it came to not accepting the established wisdom of their times. The phrase "speaking wisdom to power" comes to mind.

[Here2Learn22]

Ben,

I find that most of the time the questions are more important than the answers.

I thought about just throwing that out without explanation to see if it resonated. I will only add that the process of questioning is as vital in growing one's faith as it is in growing one's knowledge. The prophets in the Hebrew scriptures were particularly irascible when it came to not accepting the established wisdom of their times. The phrase "speaking wisdom to power" comes to mind.

I agree, often the journey is more important than any conclusions one might draw, but I'm not saying Judaism is perfect. Far from it. My orthodox cousins are proof of this (though I deeply respect them). However, reform Jews do not literally interpret scripture, and many of the problems I see in Christianity arise from such a practice. Including the instances in which scripture is used to condemn homosexuality.

So yes, prophets in hebrew scripture were quite intolerant, but as I said, reform Jews do not literally interpret the torah or bible because of the dangerous implications of those theories turned facts.

I'm not saying Christianity or Judaism is better or worse. That is a discussion not worth having, but I feel that Christianity, as a primarily main stream religion (in America), has changed the most throughout time, and sometimes not for the better.

[BruceChris]

In the United Church of Christ, at least in MY UCC, our members have a certain duty to theology. It's not to learn their theology, so much as it is to create our own, subject to revision, as we learn more about life. I find myself focused not on Christ's "salvation", but on his teaching.

Namaste', Bruce Chris