Ousted because I'm gay?

[keltic63]

hey friends,

a few of you know this already, but I thought I'd put this up and open it for discussion.

Yesterday, I resigned my position as music director for my church, Christmas Eve will be my last service there. I will also be taking a break from church work, with the exception of doing some substitute organ work. I figure that I can handle walking in, playing, taking my check, and leaving.

Our interim minister has been making my job difficult for the past 8 weeks (since he arrived) and yesterday he put me in an impossible situation: follow his orders and ruin the Christmas eve service with poorly rehearsed young musicians, or don't follow his orders and let him tell everyone that I'm not doing my job. Nice Catch 22....

After I tendered my resignation, I learned that our search committee didn't bother to check any of his references when they hired him. I did a little Google search of my own and discovered why I'm being targeted:

http://www.pres-outlook.org/opinion/43-letters-to-the-editor/7742-re-218th-general-assembly.html

the author of this little letter is the same man who is now our interim pastor.

Prejudice is shrewd, finds way to hide itself.

and yeah, I'm more than a little bummed.

[Petrese]

Sorry to hear this. I have often said before that bigots can be very creative in exacting their prejudice on others. This is one big reason why I don't have a lot of faith in GLBT 'rights laws' as currently written. The bigots just become more crafty.

[Emproph]

http://www.pres-outlook.org/opinion/43-letters-to-the-editor/7742-re-218th-general-assembly.html

the author of this little letter is the same man who is now our interim pastor.

Prejudice is shrewd, finds way to hide itself.

and yeah, I'm more than a little bummed.

That letter took me a bit aback, anything below that may cause imaginings of fear is meant to confront the pastor, and should not necessarily be taken as an assumption of its truth on my part. Except for this:

The only possible understanding of a god of love is the understanding that anything that is not of love, must be an illusion designed to increase the understanding of the magnitude of the onlyness of God Love.

That said, Interim pastor, forgive me...

I have no problem deleting statements from the Barman Confession (ah, another confession) that are editorial additions and weren’t originally there. Make it pure! I do have problems with ignoring cogent statements in the New Testament regarding homosexuality (Romans chapter 1 seems rather clear.)

Do you honestly think that consensual intimacy between two adults of the same gender is exactly the same as the description in Romans 1:28-32 ?:

28Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 29They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

The Scriptures have to be our final authority about the actions and directions of God.

Boy howdy:

Deuteronomy 22:6 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy%2022:%206-7;&version=31;)

6 If you come across a bird's nest beside the road, either in a tree or on the ground, and the mother is sitting on the young or on the eggs, do not take the mother with the young. 7 You may take the young, but be sure to let the mother go, so that it may go well with you and you may have a long life.

Jesus nor only said, “Then neither do I condemn you,” he also said, “Go and sin no more.” Too frequently we choose one without the other.

Jesus was speaking to an adulteress, someone, or the SAME AS someone who may have divorced and remarried (http://www.ph.unimelb.edu.au/~jlc/stuff2.html).

So, Renny, tell us, what are you doing to influence your parishioners on how to prevent divorce and remarriage - lest those that practice the sin of remarriage think they are safe from the flames of eternal hell?

I hurt for gays and lesbians who have in the past been wrongly excluded from the Church.
You can place that sentiment on this planet (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uranus).

We do not now exclude homosexuals from church membership; but our ushering in their ability to be church officers and ministers will usher out other true believers from the whole church.

In other words, “true believers” are ONLY those who are wholeheartedly anti-gay.

How…not exclusive of you.

My letter is not to grouse or complain.

Grouse (2): complain: to complain regularly and continually, often in a way that is not constructive

Well clearly we’ve established that your complaints are fully sincere and/or productive, and might I add, not at all flamingly hypocritical or offensive.

There were times in the past when portions of our Presbyterian Church supported slavery. There were times when we excluded folks from the Lord’s Table because they weren’t of our ilk. There were times when we Presbyterians haughtily looked down on those who were not like us in faith and practice. There were times when women could not be ordained. We overcame and grew through those parochial sins.

In other words, BY supporting the emotional “slavery” of LGBT church members, BY excluding LGBT “folks from the Lord’s Table,” BY “haughtily look[ing] down on those [LGBT persons] who are not like you, you will overcome and grow through those sins again?

Let us stay together as the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.): to teach one another, to pray for one another, to love one another in the name of Christ. Running away only waters down the proper voice of Christ. We grow in life not through accedence but through adversity. The Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) seems now poised to have a growth spurt. Both sides, victors and vanquished, please stay and pray for one another. We can do more for Christ united together despite our diversity in important areas. …

And now for the first draft:

Let us stay together as the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.): to teach one another, to pray for one another, to love one another in the name of Christ [except when it comes to gay people]. Running away only waters down the proper voice of Christ [except when it comes to gay people]. We grow in life not through accedence but through adversity [except when it comes to gay people]. The Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) seems now poised to have a growth spurt [except when it comes to gay people]. Both sides, victors and vanquished, please stay and pray for one another [except when it comes to gay people]. We can do more for Christ united together despite our diversity in important areas [except when it comes to gay people]. …

Prejudice is shrewd, finds way to hide itself.

[keltic63]

emproph,

did I mention that he's divorced?

[u-dog]

Steve,

I'm really, really sorry that this has happened to you. It sucks in an ultimate and total way. To be shoved out of your job is bad enough but to be shoved out by an incompetent MORON is even worse. On behalf of competent interim pastors everywhere may offer my abject apology?

Others have responded to his drivel about the scriptures. What galled me is his utter contempt for the confessions. a) he doesn't know what a confession of faith IS or what it is for. b) he doesn't know WHICH of the confessions was involved in the recent General Assembly actions which suggests C) He has never actually READ any of the confessions. HOW DID THIS BOZO EVER GET ORDAINED ??????

The General Assembly began the process of amending the Book of Confessions last June. The Heidelburg Catechism (not the Declaration of Barmen) was found to have a translation "error" embedded in it. Actually, the two translators who translated the version that is included in our Book of Confession just unilaterally and on their own authority ADDED text to the confession about homosexuality. Nothing remotely like it exists in the original 1563 German text. No one noticed the "error" back in 1968 when the Book of Confessions were adopted by the church. Now friends and allies of GLBT folks in the church are attempting to have the "revision" removed.

The declaration of Barmen is a statement adopted by the Confessing Church Movement of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in Germany during the time of the Nazi's.

Pastor Renny is a Moron. He is also a fool. In "Bad Ideas in Pastoring 101" we learned this essential lesson. "Never fuck with the Organist or Music director in the exercise of their duties" Unless you were teaching the kids bawdy drinking songs and having them present them in worship he should have bowed to your discretion in this matter.

Sigh,

U-dog

[Daniel]

In "Bad Ideas in Pastoring 101" we learned this essential lesson. "Never fuck with the Organist or Music director in the exercise of their duties"

The pastor in question, that is. The man may be a fool or fox, depending on how one views the situation. If he is a fool, or merely unskilled at working with others, that is one thing. However, if he meant to create an impossible situation for Steve, then something else is involved.

Malice of forethought.

We can't know his motivations from here. And he may not know his own if his life is an unexamined one.

My own experience as a church musician has shown me that Steve's situation is all too common. And my husband could curl your ears with the many tales of organists who have been fired or forced from their jobs for being queer (it's happened to him thrice), sometimes right before retirement.

A new pastor or priest arrives. And everything that isn't geared towards making them shine is gotten rid of.

We like to think that the church is where the best and brightest go to serve. But sadly, while many preach about the Kingdom of God, many are intent on creating their own little kingdom, around their own person of course.

[Gennee]

I'm sorry about what happened, Keltic. From what I can see your pastor seems to have his own agenda rather than the interests of the congregants at heart. Like Daniel says, many are intent on creating their own kingdom.

Gennee

:mad::(

[u-dog]

I am sure that your husbands experience is just as you describe it... and that totally sucks.

My experience from the pastoral point of view is that any pastor who plays power games with the music director is a fool. In all of my churches over the years the organist/ music directors have had long-standing emotional ties with the congregation and could have made my life a misery by manipulating those relationships. Consequently, I have found it to be far happier to play fair and communicate openly and give my musicians their head. I have always had far better music in my churches than I had any right to expect.

I did once have an organist who tried to manipulate ME by offering his resignation when we disagreed about the direction that our worship was going to take. He was very surprised and shocked when I took his letter and said thank you. Several parishioners came to me afterward to ask me to allow him to retract his letter. I declined. Mostly because he was a pain in the ass.

SO... while Pastor Renny may believe that he was acting shrewdly ... I still think he is a fool. Just my opinion.

[nmwolfboy]

Oh, Steve, i'm so sorry to hear about this. And the way he chose to put you on the horns of a dilemma about the Christmas Eve service really shows what kind of a guy he is. What was up with the congregation not checking this guy out? i note from the linked letter by Renny that he formerly pastored a church in Washington, PA. My hometown. Eck!

i think u-dog nailed it - the guy's a fool. Probably studied under Gagnon. :eek:

[Rick336]

Steve,

I'm sorry that you're going through this, especially at this time of year. It's tough when we have to deal with other people's neurosis.

I hope you can still have a Merry Christmas and that 2009 is a good year for you.

Rick

[keltic63]

the good news is that today, I woke up as excited as I've ever been to get to church! why? it's the last sunday morning that I have to go to this particular church and experience what has been happening there.

I dressed the way I wanted to, not how I'm expected to.

I played some great music, including a very spiritual rendition of "I Will Survive" with bits and pieces woven into the music for communion, and followed by the full blown version for the Postlude.

I informed my small choir that I'm done. and not surprisingly, they are upset. I told them what had been going on, what happened Friday, and how he set me up for failure. They asked me if I'd gone to anyone for help. I recounted my experiences from the 3 people I went to: be loose and flexible, it'll all work out, hang in there.

The board chair called an emergency board meeting after church. It was announced to them there. I, of course, did my job and left immediately so as not to hang around and be interrogated.

It's been 5 hours since they found out. Not one phone call or email from anyone associated with the church.

[Matt Algren]

It's been 5 hours since they found out. Not one phone call or email from anyone associated with the church.
They won't call. If it's anything like my experiences with leaving a church over things like this (not from staff, but because of major disagreements with the pastor), they've already closed ranks and don't want to say or do anything that could be interpreted as against this Reny guy. They might be talking to each other about it (Gossip is fun!), but they won't talk to you.

[pnggrad79]

Keltic honey,
I am so sorry for that stupid decision the pastor of your church made. It is just plain ignorant. How long had you been there? Did anybody come to your defense? If they didn't, they don't need your kind of talent in there. I hope your successor leaves them wanting you back.

What would the world do without the talent of gay musicians? Be very black and white and that's about it. Very dull and godawful boring!

I hope you find another church where you can be yourself and play your music with as much heart and soul as you want.

God Bless you!:(

[tdogg]

When one door closes...

Another opens.

Steve, may 2009 bring you many open doors to chose from, none of which lead to closets. :love::love:

[keltic63]

Keltic honey,
I am so sorry for that stupid decision the pastor of your church made. It is just plain ignorant. How long had you been there? Did anybody come to your defense? If they didn't, they don't need your kind of talent in there. I hope your successor leaves them wanting you back.

What would the world do without the talent of gay musicians? Be very black and white and that's about it. Very dull and godawful boring!

I hope you find another church where you can be yourself and play your music with as much heart and soul as you want.

God Bless you!:(

I've been employed by and a member of this church 2 separate times: the first stint with them started 19 years ago. I left after about 7 years. I worked a few other places and returned again in 2002.

I asked 3 people for help, and kept quiet with everyone else. Those 3 people were a bit patronizing, giving me a pat on the head and saying "stay loose and flexible" or "just hang in there, things will get better." Well, things got worse.

at this point, I'm not looking for another church. too hurt to do that. and I'd like to start having real weekends.

[keltic63]

Pastor Renny is a Moron. He is also a fool. In "Bad Ideas in Pastoring 101" we learned this essential lesson. "Never fuck with the Organist or Music director in the exercise of their duties" Unless you were teaching the kids bawdy drinking songs and having them present them in worship he should have bowed to your discretion in this matter.

Sigh,

U-dog

it's not me they should be worried about, it's him. yesterday, in the middle of his sermon, he called up 2 girls, sisters, both under 12yo, and had them "model" their brand new Christmas dresses, do a ballerina twirl, and then he gave them presents to open.


creepy. :eek:

[Zerbie]

it's not me they should be worried about, it's him. yesterday, in the middle of his sermon, he called up 2 girls, sisters, both under 12yo, and had them "model" their brand new Christmas dresses, do a ballerina twirl, and then he gave them presents to open.


creepy. :eek:

Whoa, that does sound weird. Didn't he give the rest of the kids presents??

(shaking it off)
Anyway, Kelt, go and enjoy your weekends from here on out. Sleep in on Sundays.
:love:

[keltic63]

Whoa, that does sound weird. Didn't he give the rest of the kids presents??

(shaking it off)
Anyway, Kelt, go and enjoy your weekends from here on out. Sleep in on Sundays.
:love:

no, he didn't. and I'm not sure if there were any other kids in the sanctuary then, but I do know that there was a 3yo and a toddler in the nursery. the 3yo was in and out of the sanctuary.

[Matt Algren]

no, he didn't. and I'm not sure if there were any other kids in the sanctuary then, but I do know that there was a 3yo and a toddler in the nursery. the 3yo was in and out of the sanctuary.
Let me guess. The two girls are from influential families.

[keltic63]

Let me guess. The two girls are from influential families.

yes. it's the same family that has been mentioned or involved in 5 of this pastor's 8 worship services to date.

[Matt Algren]

yes. it's the same family that has been mentioned or involved in 5 of this pastor's 8 worship services to date.
HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

Oh Jeez. I was hoping I was wrong. What a mess.

Now to figure out what you're wearing for Christmas Eve service. Is it too late to get a replica of Miss Yvonne's dress from the Pee Wee's Playhouse Christmas Special?

[keltic63]

HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

Oh Jeez. I was hoping I was wrong. What a mess.

Now to figure out what you're wearing for Christmas Eve service. Is it too late to get a replica of Miss Yvonne's dress from the Pee Wee's Playhouse Christmas Special?


ah! the most beautiful woman in puppetland......

[Matt Algren]

I just saw the episode from the first season of Queer As Folk where the gang came to the fund raiser at Michael and David's house all dressed up in various stereotype attire. Maybe something similar would be appropriate.

[Vanessa White]

I know that I have not been around these parts much, all for good reasons, but am so sorry to hear of this, but at the same time, so glad to hear that you have enough self-respect to walk away and keep your dignity. I know that had to have ambivalence to it, the leaving, but sometimes, we can't know how things will turn out after we have walked away to hold onto our core selves. I love you buddy; please take good care of yourself in all of this.

Merry, Merry Christmas to you!!!! :love::love::love::love:

[keltic63]

I know that I have not been around these parts much, all for good reasons, but am so sorry to hear of this, but at the same time, so glad to hear that you have enough self-respect to walk away and keep your dignity. I know that had to have ambivalence to it, the leaving, but sometimes, we can't know how things will turn out after we have walked away to hold onto our core selves. I love you buddy; please take good care of yourself in all of this.

Merry, Merry Christmas to you!!!! :love::love::love::love:

thank you dear. I am taking care of myself, and friends, lots of them, are helping me do that. I'm pretty pissed about the way things have turned out, but at the same time, I'm excited about new possibilities. Leaving as I am will eliminate the opportunity for those few people who feel the need to give me a going away party. I don't want it, and it's a hollow gesture. this really is about taking care of myself, keeping my sanity, and truthfully, my physical health has been bad since the beginning of this: chronic sinusitis since october, and this guy arrived Nov 1....I haven't been able to shake the sinus problems since then.

[Vanessa White]

Yes, I do believe that the opportunities after this will abound for you!!!!! Your blessings will continue, in ways that you cannot even imagine at this point!!!!!

[keltic63]

well, what do you know? 1 couple from the congregation has contacted me to express their sorrow at my resignation. They didn't ask for more information, just wanted to say that they'll miss me.....

[keltic63]

well, what do you know? 1 couple from the congregation has contacted me to express their sorrow at my resignation. They didn't ask for more information, just wanted to say that they'll miss me.....

a little bit more about this:

I sent a reply to their initial email:

Thank you for your kind words. My decision to leave was not made lightly or in haste. I've had an association with this church, off and on, for nearly 20 years and through quite a few pastors. None of them has ever had a problem with me personally. I've always been able to maintain a good working relationship with them. This particular situation runs deeper than I indicated in my resignation letter. Some other information came to my attention on Saturday, which only confirms for me that I have made the right decision.

I do wish the church well, but I fear that things will get worse before growth occurs. But then, there are those who believe the best growth comes from adversity.

God Bless you both as well.


I didn't feel I was baiting them, but here is the reply I got a few moments ago.


Hi Steve,
Thanks for the reply. I think I prefer to be naive. I hope/know our paths will cross again in God's time.


I can't tell you how that hurt.

[Matt Algren]

a little bit more about this:

I sent a reply to their initial email:




I didn't feel I was baiting them, but here is the reply I got a few moments ago.



I can't tell you how that hurt.
Oh, ouch. That hurts.

I'm so sorry.

[Daniel]

Is making me remember when I was fired from my organist job at a Methodist church in New Jersey in 1987. Was it because I was gay? I thought so at the time, but had no proof. I walked into Wednesday night choir practice and saw the board president waiting for me- and no choir. I was given a month's pay, and that was that. Got in my car and drove away.

Shortly after that, I found another organist job a town over and stayed 3 years before finding a job singing in an Episcopal church in NYC where I stayed, off an on, for 15 years.

It hurt, really hurt to be fired and know that it was because of my sexuality.

There oughta be a law....

So sorry this has happened to you Keltic!

[keltic63]

It hurt, really hurt to be fired and know that it was because of my sexuality.





know that it's because of my sexuality, but can't prove that it is.

and partly because those people don't want to know why.

[Daniel]

know that it's because of my sexuality, but can't prove that it is.

and partly because those people don't want to know why.

We live in a day and age where anti-gay actions aren't so easily dismissed. We've progressed in some ways. There is a greater awareness of these matters, even in the smallest towns.

What has changed? People aren't proud of their bigotry anymore. It's losing it's shine. People don't want to think of themselves as being bigots, even though their actions, or lack of them, are motivated by bigotry.

"Nope! Can't be me! I love gay people! I have friends who are gay!"

But if you keep yourself from knowing what the score is....well....you don't have to do anything about it, do you?

Bigotry by default.

[Matt Algren]

Martin Luther King, Jr. once said "In the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends."

He was right.

[tdogg]

Martin Luther King, Jr. once said "In the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends."

He was right.

Amen to that.

What is the saying? All it takes for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing?

[keltic63]

Finally, I've managed to write about this experience.

When You Can't Prove What Is Obviously True (http://keltic.wordpress.com/2008/12/31/when-you-cant-prove-what-is-obviously-true/)

if you're bored, and have plenty of time to read.....go at it.

[BenL]

Steve,

It's clear that you had no choice. You gave a very difficult situation eight weeks, which is more than I could have done, I'm sure.

I know some of the feeling of abandonment you are experiencing. I retired with a buyout at the end of August. I never got a card or a gift or phone call from any of the staff I supervised for nearly 20 years.

The quote about the silence of your "friends" speaks volumes, doesn't it?

Hope you find a new position where you're appreciated for the talented and loving guy you are. Not to mention hunk. :eek: :lol: Did I say that?

[Pablo Rafael]

Hi Steve,

I should have responded to this thread sooner. I haven't been on the forums much lately and missed it earlier.

Sorry to hear about your troubles. The pastor sounds a lot like a pastor that my parents had in their church many years ago. He came in and made a speech telling the congregation that he was the quarterback and he would be calling the shots. That was the beginning of the troubles. The congregation ended up firing him after a few disasterous years. How these people get in the ministry and stay there is a puzzle. It seems like some people get into the ministry because it gives them power. In a lot of churches it seems like the pastor has dictatorial powers.

I hope that you soon will find a place that will value your skill in music. You could come to the little Episcopal church I play for. I will let you play the organ and I can play the guitar. :lol: You do like pump organs, don't you? (Yes the church has an old pump organ. Most of those things are museum pieces. Pretty limiting on what one can play, especially pieces using the pedals.)

The mission congregation that I used to play for in the summer wouldn't let me play piano or organ for them after I "came out", because they "valued music so much". They would let me play along with guitar, however. I guess being gay contaminates keyboard instruments more than it does guitars. :confused: They wanted me to stay they said, but definitely as a second class citizen. I said no thanks. I never had a major position in music in the church like you had. I was just lowly organist. But it still hurt.

Feeling bad for you, my friend. Hope things will be looking up for you soon. I pray that interesting opportunitites will come your way.

Tu Amigo, Pablo

[sarahbina]

Ouch Keltic - that guy is creepy, I read his rant on your link and the other stuff he did.

Good thing - is that all things happen for a reason and even if they aren't comfortable at the moment - growth, in this case unexpected can happen. For you I hope it does.

[BruceChris]

Both sides, victors and vanquished, please stay and pray for one another.

Steve: It goes against the basic teachings of Christianity, as well as the grace of God to assume that there should be, or even can be "victors and vanquished" within the church. And I can see which category he seems to have placed you in.

It is extreemly tempting to say that somebody should toss this guy out on his ass . backside, but not very Christian to do so.

Most churches within the UCC accept gays as equal and beloved children of God, but this probably doesn't do you any good.

You have my sympathy, and my outrage.

Our minister of music often has to arrange a replacement, when he goes on tour with some theatrical production, and my former church has long had the services of Lori Dokken, who works at the piano bar of a local gay bar.

Bruce Chris

[Rick336]

Steve,

I read your blog about the weird intern pastor. He seems messed up for sure. Sorry that you've had to deal with such a difficult situation but I think you made the right decision leaving the church. Working with homophobes is never a good thing. Homophobes are usually always neurotic about other stuff too.

I had a job once where I worked with some really screwed up people. I was miserable. I finally quit and found an even better job with people that were much easier to work with. It was the best move I ever made.

The good thing is, in a few months this will all be behind you.

Rick

[keltic63]

Thanks, everyone, for your support. I've had 2 sundays off now, and while it hurts to not have that money, I'm certainly enjoying my time off and feel like a load has been lifted!

something better is definitely on the way!

[andrewlittle]

Thanks, everyone, for your support. I've had 2 sundays off now, and while it hurts to not have that money, I'm certainly enjoying my time off and feel like a load has been lifted!

something better is definitely on the way!

Sorry I didn't catch this earlier, Steve. I don't know that I would have had much to add when I read the other comments, though. Just know that I feel for you and wish only that you find healing from this trauma. Yet another instance of violence in God's name.

As for Interim Pastor Dr Weasel Buttplug, well - nuff said.

[Kris Johnson]

I am so sorry to hear what you have gone through. Without excellence in music, the church is so diminished, and I would bet that your leadership was exceptional. I would defer to my worship and music director any day in matters of music, that is her training, not mine. the behavior of many of my "colleagues" shames me often when I hear this kind of abuse.

please consider being open to using your gifts in another place sometime in the future. You were blessed with gifts to be used, and i will pray that God opens a door that will allow that to happen freely and joyfully.