Fred Phelps' daughter on Fox News

[pnggrad79]

OK guys, you have to look at this link. My 18 year old daughter sent this to me, and commented that she couldn't believe this woman calls herself a Christian the way she talks about God and how much He hates America. This woman says that 9/11 and the subsequent war in Iraq is God's judgment on America for its toleration of gays/lesbians. She and her family at Westboro Baptist Church in Topeka, KS advocate execution (Leviticus style) for GLBT people. She also said that her family was picketing the funerals of dead soldiers as a celebration of God's pouring out his angry wrath on America.:mad:

My question is-exactly how is America tolerating gays/lesbians when we still can't get married in this country?

Click on this link. It is an interview with the Phelps' woman and Hannity and Colmes.

http://media.spikedhumor.com/24864/insane_woman_on_fox_news.wmv

[NathanATX]

That video clip needs to be played over and over to respond to "good Christians" who think they are being loving while condemning gay people. Maybe then they will "connect the dots" that very closely link their "loving disapproval of homosexuality" to the Phelps' inbred putrid hostility.

[Emproph]

Slam on Fox, slam on Phelps, slam on Westboro.

They all just need to keep "unifying" and they'll destroy themselves. And in the process, those in the "moveable middle" will decidedly, decide to take sides.

I'm not sayin' it's gonna be pretty... :(

[tdogg]

I guess we're 'tolerate' by the mere fact that we are allowed to live. The Phelps family are sickly twisted, and I think more than a little dangerous. It's disgusting to me what they do and how they think, and it has nothing to do with God, only their own inground fears and hatred that is perpetuated in that family.

[keltic63]

I guess we're 'tolerate' by the mere fact that we are allowed to live. The Phelps family are sickly twisted, and I think more than a little dangerous. It's disgusting to me what they do and how they think, and it has nothing to do with God, only their own inground fears and hatred that is perpetuated in that family.

ever see their website? :eek:

[Venari]

My favourite part, in response to the Iowa law requiring 500ft space from a funeral;

"The legislative Taliban passes an unconstitutional amendment preventing up from putting the cup of God's fury and wrath to your lips and forcing you to drink."

I believe in the inherit goodness of all people, but when I see things like this ... I really have to second guess my self.

-Venari

[Dash]

:eek: Creeeeeeepy!!

Ok, first of all, let me say that I watch waaaay too much SciFi Channel.

Secondly...She reminded me of some scary zombi movie or demon movie... Sitting there all dead-faced, grinning horribly at the camera as she listened to them blast her family and herself. Like a puppet possessed. Hidden strings pulling back the sides of her mouth into that perpetual, obscene smile.

Perelandra by C. S. Lewis has a character that she reminded me of as well.

:eek:

[NathanATX]

Some have suggested that Phelps & his crew are a "plant" to make the far right look bad. Because of my personal confrontation with them, but moreso because of the sick, violent, criminal, abusive, addictive behavior of the Phelps clan which is documented several places, the Wiki article being one, I think they have created their lunacy on their own. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_Ph...nd_abusiveness

I don't think a person who truly wants to be like Christ would have anything to do with them.

Also, knowing some of the horrible abuse Phelps inflicted on his family, who's to say they are not carrying out his commands because they are living in abject terror he will hurt them or someone they love?

I think a relevant question for the Church is "How is our anti-gay stance any different than the WBC's?" Both use the same texts to back up their opinions. Most churches aren't going to advocate abusive languange or giving glbt people the death penalty, of course. But the essence of the Church's message is the same: God doesn't approve of homosexuals and will not welcome them into heaven, i.e. God will send them to an eternal hell.

That is the real abuse, in my opinion.

[Jamie McDaniel]

I think a relevant question for the Church is "How is our anti-gay stance any different than the WBC's?"
I created a booklet comparing the teachings/rhetoric of Fred Phelps with those of Southern Baptists. We distributed it outside the 2003 Southern Baptist Convention in Phoenix.

www.soulforce.org/pdf/sbcandphelps.pdf (http://www.soulforce.org/pdf/sbcandphelps.pdf)

[dewdrop_world]

That video clip needs to be played over and over to respond to "good Christians" who think they are being loving while condemning gay people. Maybe then they will "connect the dots" that very closely link their "loving disapproval of homosexuality" to the Phelps' inbred putrid hostility.
I don't think this would have the effect you intend. I suspect more middle-of-the-road anti-gay Christians would feel like their position is justifiable because it isn't as venomous as Phelps. "Well, he obviously just hates, but we 'really do' love the sinner"...

hjh

[awediot]

ever see their website (http://www.godhatesfags.com/main/index.html)

"I created a booklet comparing the teachings/rhetoric of Fred Phelps with those of Southern Baptists."

"I think a relevant question for the Church is "How is our anti-gay stance any different than the WBC's?"

"Maybe then they will "connect the dots" that very closely link their "loving disapproval of homosexuality" to the Phelps' inbred putrid hostility."

"Well, he obviously just hates, but we 'really do' love the sinner"...

"Some have suggested that Phelps & his crew are a "plant" to make the far right look bad."

"They all just need to keep "unifying" and they'll destroy themselves."

The law stipulates that any person who works in counseling, psychiatry, psychology, social work, teaching, and so on, who merely suspects that an illegal sexual relationship may be going on, must report it to the authorities. Investigation, harassment, hysterical and inaccurate publicity, arrest, and imprisonment are the likely result. Ten or twenty years ago, the gay movement would have been a source of support for such relationships. Today, it is virtually indistinguishable from the heterosexist dictatorship itself.

The gay assimilationist want to become part of an existing, inequitable capitalist society, not change that society in any fundamental way. Their approach is inherently selfish, not altruistic. They seek minor adjustments in the status quo, not radical social change. They have been co-opted by the heterosupremacist power structure.

Freedom is indivisible. The liberation of children, women, boy-lovers, and homosexuals in general, can occur only as complementary facets of the same dream. -- David Thorstad

They murder our love and yet it lives.
They throttle our cry and it echoes back from the future.


I regret this post already, being so good at making friends. It is done only to defend Christianity and illustrate the ease of ill founded connections. Just how out of context comments are taken, from who and why, you are welcome to research and analyze, but the point will not change.

Comparing Westborough to Christianity is like comparing SoulForce to NAMBLA.

I e-mailed Phelps about two months ago, and said only that, "I Truly do hope that you lead more people to Christ than you drive away." I hope the same for SoulForce.

Where is the difficult empathy for this tortured man or recognition of fatal damage he is doing in the name of Christ? And not just to gays...


It's disgusting to me what they do and how they think, and it has nothing to do with God,

she couldn't believe this woman calls herself a Christian...

I don't think a person who truly wants to be like Christ would have anything to do with them.

"Well, he obviously just hates, but we 'really do' love the sinner"...

Isn't that what it's all about?

Okay. let me have it... or cut me off before I post again.

[NathanATX]

Awe... I submit that there are very concrete similarities in the message of homophobic "mainstream" christians and the message of the Westboro Baptist Church. WBC is more vitriolic and vulgar, but the essence of the message is the same.

God gets mad at sin and eventually punishes the sinner.

Phelps and his crew take it to the extreme, but really... are they that different?

[NathanATX]

After reading Fred's bio at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_Phelps and then watching that tv clip several times... it seems that his daughter's behavior, views of God, and "why don't you just behave" kind of thinking give credence to the premise that she and many in that family have suffered much abuse at Fred's hands.

Can anyone else comment? Therapists, pastors, etc.?

[awediot]

I do not know if you have checked out their site... Please do, and then compare them to the mainstream... I've never seen anything that compared to counting up the days someone is burning in hell...

[NathanATX]

I do not know if you have checked out their site... Please do, and then compare them to the mainstream... I've never seen anything that compared to counting up the days someone is burning in hell...

I've also encountered them face-to-face.

I know that 99% of Christians aren't going to vomit up the abuse that Phelps does.

However. The essential core beliefs about sexuality are quite similar.

God doesn't approve of homosexuality, therefore gay people will go to hell.

Phelps appears to be more honest and outspoken about them.

[awediot]

God doesn't approve of homosexuality, therefore gay people will go to hell.
Phelps appears to be more honest and outspoken about them.


I fear you doubt the claim of many Christians that they hate the sin/love the sinner (given the disagreement as to 'sin') and prefer to assume they are all cut from the same cloth. But the open minded, more forgiving ones just deceive themselves.Those who claim to flat out Damn us are rare, though it may not feel that way. The majority mistakenly lump our 'sin' with the sin they know they are also guilty of, and acknowledge we both are in an on going battle against temptation. "God Hates Fags" is a unique proclamation and the association between mainstream believers and this extreme is exactly like our being linked to the 'noble, liberating' efforts of NAMBLA. The leaps and blurred lines and dismissal of critical differences is classic. If you indeed see Christianity as a whole represented by Phelps, there is no middle ground to strive for.

Do you believe that over used Hate sin/Love sinner is actually possible?

[NathanATX]

I am saying that when you boil away the niceties of anti-gay theology, the core element is this: God doesn't approve of homosexuality, therefore gay people are sinning, therefore they are going to hell.


Do you believe that over used Hate sin/Love sinner is actually possible?

In a word, no. It is an inauthentic representation of someone's desire to condemn another person while having the appearance of being Godly. It is unloving and unchristian.

[awediot]

I am saying that when you boil away the niceties of anti-gay theology, the core element is this: God doesn't approve of homosexuality, therefore gay people are sinning, therefore they are going to hell.

And all I am saying, that once one removes their Rosie O'Donnell colored glasses and grows beyond it all being about the gay thing: God doesn't approve of (X), people who do (X) are sinning, therefore they are going to Hell. Well---Christians are the first to acknowledge that they themselves are guilty of (X), and sinning. As such, do rightfully condemn the act of sinning, but not the soul doing it. The definition of (X) has nothing to do with the larger principle. This is not a problem with the likes of Phelps or fundamentalism, but with Christianity all together.

"Do you believe that over used Hate sin/Love sinner is actually possible?"

In a word, no. It is an inauthentic representation of someone's desire to condemn another person while having the appearance of being Godly. It is unloving and unchristian.

How do you know? I have hated another person's actions and not only continued to love them deeply, but even had the empathy stirred by understanding the power of temptation they were fighting, make me love them more. Haven't you ever encouraged a friend to quit lieing, drinking so much or sleeping around without writing them off an irredeemable lier, drunk or slut? And don't you appreciate the loving, hard to hear criticism of a friend pointing out the ways in which you are being an ass, while understanding that you are in fact, not one? Is it not love that causes them to even bother?

I believe that my adversary's motives are as pure as mine and of no relevance to our discussion.

[Dash]

How do you know? I have hated another person's actions and not only continued to love them deeply, but even had the empathy stirred by understanding the power of temptation they were fighting, make me love them more. Haven't you ever encouraged a friend to quit lieing, drinking so much or sleeping around without writing them off an irredeemable lier, drunk or slut? And don't you appreciate the loving, hard to hear criticism of a friend pointing out the ways in which you are being an ass, while understanding that you are in fact, not one? Is it not love that causes them to even bother?
All true...but most people who preach this banal platitude leave out the critical factor which you do not...they don't bother to actually be a friend in the way you describe.

Love is not one side of an aphorism...

[Kathleen]

People like Shirley truly scare me. One reason is that zealots like her are able to get on national television to pass along their message of hatred. There are only 100 members of this church and look at the impact it has had by having a few members show up with signs spouting hatred and intolerance. One piece I did find interesting; when the interviewer asked her what HER sins were, she would only reply that the interviewer was sinning for not lmake his "neighbor" aware of the sins he or she was commiting. People like Shirley never look within themselves. Perhaps it would be too frightening. The question really didn't need to be answered anyway, it is obvious what her "sins" are.

[NathanATX]

http://www.rslevinson.com/gaylesissues/features/collect/phelps/bl_phelpsmain.htm

An unpublished book on Phelps "Addicted to Hate."

[NathanATX]

And all I am saying, that once one removes their Rosie O'Donnell colored glasses and grows beyond it all being about the gay thing: God doesn't approve of (X), people who do (X) are sinning, therefore they are going to Hell. Well---Christians are the first to acknowledge that they themselves are guilty of (X), and sinning. As such, do rightfully condemn the act of sinning, but not the soul doing it. The definition of (X) has nothing to do with the larger principle. This is not a problem with the likes of Phelps or fundamentalism, but with Christianity all together.

Actually, it does look to me as if this entire conversation is primarily about "the gay thing" and the fundamentalist condemnation of homosexuality. Other than that issue, you're right, is an issue of the theology of sin and hell.

By showing fundamentalists how some of their core beliefs are the same as those of Phelps and his crew, I hope to prompt them to evaluate whether they truly believe the things they say.

A) Homosexuality is not a sin.

B) The bigger issue is what does God do to "sinners," and therefore what should we do them.

Haven't you ever encouraged a friend to quit lieing, drinking so much or sleeping around without writing them off an irredeemable lier, drunk or slut?

When a friend is messing up their life through irresponsible or unloving choices, yes it breaks my heart. I lead the young adult ministry at my church and I've dealt with all kinds of things in the lives of the young people... promiscuity, drug use, intentional unsafe sex, etc... They all know they will never hear judgement from me. They know that when they share with me what is going on in their lives, what they're doing, that I will listen and hear them as people who are committed to a more healthy & loving way of living. I will ask them questions about the impact of their actions. I will get them thinking about how they dream their life could be... about what kind of person they want to be. And I reinforce those things. I encourage them. I hold them accountable to being the person they want to be.

People don't need to hear condemnation and judgement when they're doing something wrong. They already hear it because they are speaking it to themselves. They need to hear how God sees them. They need to hear that their past has nothing to do with who they really are. They need to hear that they can take responsibility for their lives and for being the man/woman that God is calling them to be.

And don't you appreciate the loving, hard to hear criticism of a friend pointing out the ways in which you are being an ass, while understanding that you are in fact, not one? Is it not love that causes them to even bother?

My mentors and I have very open and trusting relationships. When I mess up...not if, but when... they call me on it. And I don't hear judgement from them. I hear them as people who believe in me and love me and want me to become all that God is calling me to become.

[awediot]

Actually, it does look to me as if this entire conversation is primarily about "the gay thing" and the fundamentalist condemnation of homosexuality. Other than that issue, you're right, is an issue of the theology of sin and hell.

Okay, then I'll stick with that. But you must realize, you will never get them to change their mind, unless they perchance are gay themselves or have someone very close to them force the issue. (off topic- did one campus change anything substantial in policy?)

By showing fundamentalists how some of their core beliefs are the same as those of Phelps and his crew, I hope to prompt them to evaluate whether they truly believe the things they say.

Some of my core beliefs I share with Phelps. Same with fundamentalists, mere Christians, non Christians, many on this site and I would bet even you. Those beliefs won't change just because some psychotic uses them in abominable ways. They have already been deeply evaluated.

When a friend is messing up their life...They all know they will never hear judgment from me. ...I hold them accountable...

You use judgment to arrive at the terminology "messing up". And what else does a judge do but hold accountable?

People don't need to hear condemnation and judgment when they're doing something wrong. They already hear it because they are speaking it to themselves.

True, IF they have reached that introspective phase of speaking it to themselves. As a councilor, it is those who already recognize something's gone awry that seek you out. What of the ones who merrily, blindly wreak havoc around them? Judging, discerning, pegging or whatever their actions is a first, imperative step to any solution. Judging their person or Soul is a very different matter. The criticism, or judgment against Phelps is what is fueling this thread.

and again...

...they call me on it. And I don't hear judgment from them.

It is because they in fact do hate the sin, but love the sinner... It is possible, just, natural and actually the only way we can tell what needs to be improved at all. This entire site, it's view of nonviolence and correct perspective of the adversary is based on it.

I think there is such a distaste for the word "judgment", it causes an automatic revulsion and is thrust away into that dreaded fundamentalist camp, and we think our hands are washed. When the concept and ideas behind it are dismissed as well, then we cut ourselves from the roots of discernment and the ability to recognize good from evil... I have always taken the biblical admonishment to 'judge not...' to mean: do not Damn or claim to be able to redeem another's soul. We have no right or power for such things. But call each other on the damage you do, then help get beyond it. Phelps fails horribly in this and will have to answer for it. God's gonna be way more pissed at him than us, and I hope he sees the evil of his ways. The same cannot be said for simple Christians...

[dewdrop_world]

Awediot --

There is an alternative -- that is, to love the sinner and the sin alike! (Which I phrase in a deliberately provocative way.)

To love the sin is to recognize my own capacity to sin, and I don't mean in terms of abstract, fluffy concepts like original sin. It's meaningless if it isn't crushingly, shockingly concrete. It's easy to say I would never kill, but would I? What if it's ostensibly to save the life of another? What if my partner were threatened? Or, less nobly, what if somebody cuts me off on the road and I say I want to kill that bastard?

I'm not really free of murderous impulses, or lustful impulses, or proud impulses. On and on... but as I spend time with myself in meditation, I find less and less reason to hate those impulses, either in myself or in others. Just recognizing that they're there, but not feeding them with extra energy (either positive or negative), is enough for them to recede in importance and exert less influence over my actions.

What I haven't figured out is how to love the sin of Fred Phelps... people like that make it really hard! But, if your spiritual path isn't hard, then it's neither spiritual nor a path ("I'm Linda Richman, there's your topic, discuss").

James

[awediot]

James, I'm Verklempt (http://verklempt.com/) (a huh site?)

Uhhmmm, WHY?

I am always open to an alternative, even when I'm not looking or least expect it, but, uhhm, nah, screw sin. My capacity to recognize my shocking and crushing capacity to sin all over the place is just fine without having to love it.

To toot my own horn, I am free of murderous impulses (not anger). I never wish anybody dead. Defense has nothing to do with sin (or road rage). Now lust, pride (I'll leave it at that), sure, GUILTY as charged. I do not "hate" those impulses, I struggle at times to ignore them, block them, up-root and dilute them until they fade away. But you're right, hate takes too much energy, and love? At best they slip in unnoticed with my overall gratitude and joy of experiencing what being a human feels like. They are, however, responsible for the times when that experience sucks. I'll take some of that back, and stick with hating them a little.

God forbid you ever learn to love the sin of Phelps... May I suggest you not seek to make your path harder just because you think that makes it more spiritual. Enjoy the rare times its comfortable. Just trying to love the man, separated from his actions, is tough enough.

[NathanATX]

Seeing someone who is doing something malicious or "sinful" and knowing that you could easily be them... had you been brought up in their world, having their challenges, weaknesses, disabilities, etc... will help you have compassion on them.

You can embrace their weakness or sin because you see your own potential for weakness and sin.

Realizing they are you and you are them...

"Love your neighbor as you love yourself."

[awediot]

Seeing someone who is doing something malicious or "sinful" and knowing that you could easily be them...

...then, take it that last step... you already are them. You may not be as bad as them, in that way, but you are worse than them in others...

You can embrace their weakness or sin because you see your own potential for weakness and sin.

...and finally, drop the potential, and you're there.

Realizing we all have to account for pain we have caused is a great leveler. How much better are you than your enemy? How certain are you of your answer? Do you know them so well, and are you so sure you're efforts don't damage? They are just as convinced. Loving your neighbor is easy, we are called to love those who hate you... It is not always done by raising them up to the position of how wonderful you think yourself to be, put occasionally lowering your own defensive pride to see your not that different...

[dewdrop_world]

...then, take it that last step... you already are them. You may not be as bad as them, in that way, but you are worse than them in others...

Yes! That's exactly part of my point... And also that you don't have to be as bad as them in a particular way to have that sin in you.

The other part of what I was trying to get across is that conquering sin is not the only valid approach (which, I think, is implicit in the idea that hating sin is necessary to overcome it). Sin is also frailty, and it seems to me generally true that a compassionate response to frailty just might not include whipping the frailty into submission. If frailty indicates a weak point (at least that's the case for me when I look at my sins in meditation), weak points can be made strong by loving them and taking care of their needs (which is not the same as capitulating to their wishes). When the weak points are nourished and made whole, whenever it was that caused the sin in the first place naturally, gracefully becomes less compelling.

In other words, it's a matter of healing, which in due course produces an ethical life, rather than enforcing morality in the hopes of producing (or at the very least imitating) an ethical life. That's what I meant by loving the sin -- not "loving" as an enabler but as a nurturer, bringing about behavioral change as a side effect of inner growth.

A question that occupies me greatly is, "If neocons are ruled by fear, what can we do to alleviate the fear?" Would reducing the fear reduce the need to judge?

Hence my interest in nonviolence, and in what Thich Nhat Hanh calls deep listening and loving speech.

James

[awediot]

Yea James! you're not insane... :D I was sure I was missing your definition of 'love' somehow, but instead of presuming your point, just managed to tear one off from where you left it...

You bring up a major theme here. In that many people think that man's inherent nature is evil, whereas it seems to me our natural, necessary "flaw', is weakness. And compared to that which created us, how could it be otherwise?

Sin is also frailty,...If frailty indicates a weak point

Sin takes advantage of that weak point. The weak point itself is no sin... Big distinction. I do and will despise the act of sin, I (less than humbly) accept and am grateful for the chance to experience such a weak point. It is what keeps us less than Gods, slaves to our bodies, mortal and sensorial. It will never be healed by our own will.

"If neocons are ruled by fear, what can we do to alleviate the fear?"

Big IF.... I don't see that as their motivating factor. I think, like all of us, they are motivated by a desire to help. Be careful to not so alienate the adversary that you can no longer understand where they come from. Like was just stated, we and them aren't much different. We just wish we were. There are reasons at times to fear. In and of itself, it is no enemy. It is self-preservative and can goad us into correct things we would rather not tackle. It is a powerful and easy to misuse tool, but we shed it at our own peril.

I hate having to say this, but you will have people with power over you, judging you for the rest of your life. SoulForces goals are misguided if all they focus on is changing others to make life easier. It ain't gonna happen. Focus on the other prong of understanding where your enemy comes from first, and how you can "gird your loins" (silly, apt parallel) to deal with them first. We fail if we hinge our joy on their changing to please us.

The advantage, and next step in loving your enemy, is that in seeing the pain they inflict on their own stupid heads, and knowing the divine justice they will inevitably endure, you begin to pity them. As furious as you may rightfully feel toward the things that they do, you can still feel sorry for the battered soul they once were, and still may become. And thats KEY... it is pure, loving, productive to all, defines nonviolent and they HATE it. Pity stuns the most vile and wicked of us, crushes false pride, shines a brilliant light that bounces back on you. That weakness in them, packed with arrogance, judgmentalism and novicane, widens like an infected wound, and being the salt of the earth, is double edged...The difficult, unwanted ability to hurt them for the greater good, begins here.

[Dash]

Oh, I think those you describe are indeed motivated by fear. I think they fear death. I think they fear death for us...we, who they see as facing the ultimate death. They fear judgment...for themselves and for us. So much of their rhetoric against us is marinated in their fears.

I have a friend who once told me that all human motivations are rooted in either fear or love. I was never quite sure he was right, but I agree that this polarity informs a great many of our choices.

It was once said that perfect love drives out fear. I think this a true statement.

[awediot]

I dunno... :disagree: It seems most of the ultra-saved are plenty confident in their own souls destination. The righteousness they speak with exposes quite a comfortable position on mortality, and those I know who fear death, avoid the topic like the plague. These guys thrive on it. This goes for their haughty assuredness toward their own upcoming trial as well... I think it is that very lack of fear that allows them to be so judgmental and flippant in tossing around the ideas of heaven and hell. It only applies to everyone else... Is it just an overcompensation? Can the ultimate fear be so well hidden?... Haven't seen it yet.

If they fear for my soul, is that not out of love for my soul? And certainly the love precludes any worry or concern (bless their misguided little hearts). Odd thing about being driven by fear, its usually a quiet, shameful and isolating motivator you don't draw attention to, and the actions that result from it are usually pretty desperate and innocent... Not quite a description of our moral protectors.

I hope I'm wrong, as fear is much easier to defeat than untouchable, exaggerated self-love. Both of which can be used to destroy.

...and from SF own lips...I believe that my adversary's motives are as pure as mine and of no relevance to our discussion. (http://www.soulforce.org/article/679) (2nd time)

[Dash]

There's this thing that is often called the "great commission"--go make disciples, etc...

A common interpretation of it (rooted in Ezekiel) makes the Christian who does not warn the "sinner" of the coming sword guilty of their death.

I don't know your background...but I was as fundamentalist a fundamentalist as any there are before I was (thankfully) broken. I've listened to this fear-based motivating rhetoric...I've believed it...I've lived in fear because of it...

It is good to understand where they come from, despite what you repeat about their motivations being pure and of no consequence. No...we do not believe them to be "wicked" or "evil" in their motivations and, yes...it is completely irrelevant to label them as such while we try to engage in dialogue. (That, of course, requires vigilance to oppose our own temptations to call them such, because we are horrified again and again at what we face and the abuse of their lips against us.)

Fear permeates much contemporary Christian thought...well historical also. I disagree that fear can come from love as you say... Fear is fear...and love and fear do not mix well.

An example of what I mean: My own father protected his children out of a healthy understanding of the dangers in life...caution, or what one might call "fear." Yet...sadly...he also shared some very irrational fears with me...fears not based in reality...fears of how I was going to make a living when I grew up...fears based in his own limited understanding. By raising these fears in conversations with me, I took them up as burdens. This is different from being proud of and confident in your loved ones' abilities, and has a different effect upon them.

Love heals and strengthens. Fear weakens. I take note of the fear in anti-gay voices and actions, if for no other reason than to not let it weaken me.

The accusing spirit whispers, "guilty...guilty...guilty." Even when Christians are "set free" from sin and "saved", this spirit continues "guilty...guilty...guilty for them as well..." But I will not be a child of that spirit. I recognize the fear for what it is, and it helps me to be strong.

Nor is this recognition something of which I should be ashamed.

Nor do I think fear is easy to defeat. It is pernicious and pervasive. It is a weed that grows ever thicker as often as it is trimmed. The weed always grows faster than the flower.

It takes a very perfect love to drive fear out, and words will likely be of little use.

[awediot]

Aaahhk!!!:eek: :eek: :eek: :lol: :cool: :o yer new av. scared me a second there. (I like it, but you were cuter in the other)


I can see we are going to have to agree to disagree on a couple things. But thats fine. The causing no harm thing seems well in place... As you said, words will be of little use, but they're still a drug I indulge.

Fundementalist? Boy, the longer I hang on this site the more I look like one. And I thought I was a rebel. Who Knew? I do believe in the fundementals of Biblical Christianity, and though no one seems to believe me, it is not simply because my grandmother influenced my mother to try to influence me in her S. Baptist ways, which btw, what little stuck, I abandoned for Carlos Casteneda and what amounted to be Aztec mysticism, the art of stopping the world, stalking, mushrooms and programmed lucid dreaming in order to create my doppleganger. All of which encompassed reincarnation, karma, a method for hopping between ley lines to achieve immortality and the acceptance that the Catholic Church was a cult of witches, Lucifer was indeed the light bearer saving us from a despotic God and Jesus a megalomaniacal fraud... my pendulum doth swung.

Then didn't exactly swing back, but more broke off, spun around and knocked me silly. The Truest light I see out there has apparently turned me into what is called a fundementalist...I have no idea what that is. I just dig the fact that it is what persues me, and remains as bright whether I pay attention or not.

Clearly, the definitions of Love (God is not love, God made Love) Fear ( a mere sense somethings not right) Sin (extra harm) guilt (sense of responsibility for that harm) etc... would need to be hashed out before the deeper ideas could make any progress... We could weave a shroud with the threads it would take. (or pillow shams, place mats... I'm such a downer)

I'll offer this obtuse slice of life above as a rebuttal, rather than pick apart your gracious response...

But for something substantial to chew on. Dracula Loves blood, Hitler Loved his race, Dahmer loved those boys, Andrea Yates loved her kids and Bush loves this country. Its just a word too, as personally defined and potentially lethal as many others...

[Dash]

But for something substantial to chew on. Dracula Loves blood, Hitler Loved his race, Dahmer loved those boys, Andrea Yates loved her kids and Bush loves this country. Its just a word too, as personally defined and potentially lethal as many others...

The causing no harm thing seems well in place...

:) Hi... You're right that the word "love" is used in so many ways that we could weave...let's say a summer hat :)...with the myriad threads needed to hash it out.

For my purposes, I do repeatedly fall back on "Love does no harm," which is less a definition than a test, I guess.

The activities of the Phelps clan and the anti-gay rhetoric that issues from the mouths of many "loving" people are perfect opportunities for applying this test. We experience the harm that their words and actions cause and believe that their love is not real love.

Their response would most likely involve words like "surgeon", "necessary", "pain", and "healing." But generally speaking, their ministrations are offered not at the request of those they wound, but forced upon their "patients." Not only so, but the beneficial effects of their medicants are also roundly disputed by many who have experienced a better love.

It's just my contention that they are driven to hasty, and deadly acts by their many fears... Fear of sin...fear of God judging them for not warning us...fear of their nation and culture changing...fear of us and our differences. Their kind of "love" seems terribly self-serving also...it makes them feel better...it assuages their fear and their guilt...it stokes the fire of their own self-righteousness.

What it does not do is build others up...it eshews all kindness, gentleness and patience with their victims. For the sake of holiness and the law, they are prepared to snuff our little lights out and would rather see us in hell than with them in heaven.

[Dash]

From a k.d. Lang song... (awww...I love k.d. Lang!)

Flawless light in a darkening air
Alone...and shining there
Love will not elude you

Love is simple
I worship this tenacity
And the beautiful struggle we’re in
Love will not elude us

Love is simple
Be sure to know that

All in love
Is ours
And love, as a philosophy
Is simple

I am calm in oblivion
Calm, as I ever have been
Love will not elude me
Love is simple
Be sure to know that
All in love
Is ours...
Is ours...

That all in love
Is ours
And love, as philosophy
Is simple...
And ours...

[dewdrop_world]

But for something substantial to chew on. Dracula Loves blood, Hitler Loved his race, Dahmer loved those boys, Andrea Yates loved her kids and Bush loves this country. Its just a word too, as personally defined and potentially lethal as many others...
Yes, and part of this thread is discerning agape love (what Buddhists would call metta) from other mental states or actions that are sometimes called "love" but which stem from different motivations (and have different results).

It's possible (and beneficial!) to hold one's own, or another's, sin in agape love, out of which transformation arises.

James

[awediot]

All righty guys, maybe we are starting to get each other. and maybe not...

'Love' is indeed tossed around like some magical justifier, making all things done in its name instantly for the good of the recipient, whether they are willing to be loved into place or not.

their ministrations are offered not at the request of those they wound, but forced upon their "patients." Not only so, but the beneficial effects of their medicants are also roundly disputed by many who have experienced a better love.

So are SFs'. I doubt many campus admins requested the presence of the riders. We force the issue all the time. And have heard from some of their brainwashees a preference to just be left alone. The cries of the trapped and wounded under their thumb trumps what you doubt to be a less authentic love. Good thing we know better.

It's just my contention that they are driven to hasty, and deadly acts by their many fears... Fear of sin...fear of God judging them for not warning us...fear of their nation and culture changing...fear of us and our differences.

I share in their fear of sin. I'm afraid of being lied to, ripped off, cheated on, bashed. I fear possessing a better way of life and taking it to the grave unspoken. We are meant to warn one another. I fear for my culture's ever growing obsession with violence and cheap sex, imperialism and desensitization, and I fear the ultra-right mindset that can do me great harm. And I fear those who try to kill off all of their fears because it is merely trendy and makes them feel better... But I am not driven by those fears. I acknowledge the logic and guidance behind them, incorporate them and use them for the purpose they were placed there.

It is an intense capacity we humans have to harm for the greater good. And it takes sharp discernment and experience to know when it is in fact a valid and holy action. We would jump at the chance to briefly, productively harm Phelps' cult out of existence. We are right to try and it would be done out of Love. But it would hurt like hell. I also fear being called to do such things, and fear being stopped by the label self-righteous. But I am...

(pretty song. wish I were simpler. feels like something I can rest in someday)

and James, goes without saying. My wonder lies in how easy it is to consider our own love always agaper than those we disagree with.

[Dash]

[Having an unaccountably difficult time expressing myself...may have reached the limit of my self-understanding...Yikes!]

So are SFs'. I doubt many campus admins requested the presence of the riders. We force the issue all the time. And have heard from some of their brainwashees a preference to just be left alone. The cries of the trapped and wounded under their thumb trumps what you doubt to be a less authentic love. Good thing we know better.

Heheh...I’ve said the same thing to another recently, but flipped around. See, I would say, “We didn’t start the fire.” Our activism is a response (and I think a reasonable one) to the historical and present mistreatment of LTGB people by many Christians and Christian organizations. The doctrines that require proselytizing have sent Christians into the whole world for millennia, without regard for the cultures they disrupt and destroy with their mission work. I think that it is very hard to argue from the position that Christians are oppressed by TBLG people, though certainly that is often their contention. I think the only tenable position they have is that their despite of our kind went unopposed for a very long time, and they feel this gives it some kind of legitimacy.

:p

I share in their fear of sin. I'm afraid of being lied to, ripped off, cheated on, bashed. I fear possessing a better way of life and taking it to the grave unspoken. We are meant to warn one another. I fear for my culture's ever growing obsession with violence and cheap sex, imperialism and desensitization, and I fear the ultra-right mindset that can do me great harm.

I hear you...and I guess, I've just forgotten many of these fears. I seem to remember knowing them and sharing them. I don't know.... What I’m going to say is perhaps a bit mad, but ultimately it’s how I respond to the forces in this world that might cause me to tremble...

They have no power over me.

Nothing this world can do to me will destroy me. Killing me would not change the power and beauty of my being. That's not to say that the world can't cause me a great deal of pain. In truth though, I'm a very, very, very, very...very, very dull person, and I'm quite unlikely to ever find myself in a position to be directly harmed by the world.

This is how I feel personally...for myself.

For others...Yes...I am sorry that we cause each other so much pain, and I am troubled...often...by it. I'm angered by the pain that is in the world, and I'm saddened by the blindness that prevents most of us from seeing beyond our present pain and frustration. I am deeply frustrated by my own inability to offer anything much of value in terms of comfort to the world. Nonetheless, I do not fear for anyone's ultimate destruction. I am confident in God's love for people. I just don't know much about sin and damnation anymore. I can't see beyond the overwhelming passion that the Divine feels for humanity. I realize that we are a degenerate race, and I think we are foolish beyond reason. I think our eyes will be opened, and we will grieve over our foolishness, but I don't think God's gonna flush us down the toilet.

I don't think there is any harm in the love that I know. I can't conceive of any harmful action that I would participate in to rid the world of the Phelps clan. As strange and bizarre as I find them...as distressing as their behavior is...despite the anger that it kindles inside me, I wouldn't lift wounding finger against them. (Lord!!! I suffer from great temptations for hatred and disgust sometimes. This family does, I admit, generate some very ugly sensations within me. Ugh!!)

And I fear those who try to kill off all of their fears because it is merely trendy and makes them feel better... But I am not driven by those fears. I acknowledge the logic and guidance behind them, incorporate them and use them for the purpose they were placed there.

I celebrate the shedding of fears...and yes...it does feel good. But, no...I'm nothing to be afraid of.

Do not fear me, Awediot. :-D

But...you describe yourself as "not being driven by those fears." That makes me think that we may be trying to say the same thing in our own diverse languages.

[tdogg]

From my own 'coming out' experience (as well as throughout life in general), I find that fear and love are two separate emotions that aren't all that related if at all. At times love can push back fear, and fear can push back love.

My aunt is afraid that I am doomed to eternal hell forever and that if she allows dialogue about this between us, the evil spirit of homosexuality will overtake herself and she will lose her own salvation. She may love me, and I don't doubt that she does, but her fear has nothing to do with love. When her love is apparent, her fear is not (and vice versa). My stepmom is afraid of homosexuality because it is basically foreign to her and because she listens to the likes of Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell and company (her entire life), hours upon hours every day, telling her that it is a horrible abomination. So she is afraid to even confront the issue - fear of the unknown combined with what she has heard. One of my sisters (the other has no problem with it at all) has kind of a combo - fear of the unknown and fear of losing salvation.

When their love is apparent, they are comfortable with me and we can have loving peaceful conversations. When the fear is evident, their love is supressed and they preach sin and damnation. My aunt sent me what I call "hate mail" on my birthday - that wasn't love, it was total complete desperate fear. Phelps and gang don't do their protests out of love - it's out of fear, and some hate and anger. It doesn't mean that they don't love this country or each other, it's just that their fear - and hate and anger used as a defense mechanism - take over and push back the love.

Anyway, just my thoughts on it...