Accepting "EVIL"

[Jennifer5]

This discussion started in the "Rick Warren..." thread.

I don't believe that any person is evil, but that their actions may be.

I believe that accepting that some people are evil, is the first step to losing faith that anybody can change.

What are your opinions when it comes to accepting that some people are evil?

[BruceChris]

And theologians have been asking for a long time. First, we have to define "evil", and define "sin".

I m going to insert here that I must admire your faith in people, and in their ability to grow, and learn from their mistakes.


I would define evil as "knowingly, and in our right mind" harming another person, or animal. Can we ever be completely in our right mind, when we harm another? Very likely not.

Sin is defined many different ways, in the bible, or by church doctrine. And of course, not everything that is apparently defined as a sin harms another person or animal. Like homosexuality, for example.

Now if you get into the purity codes found in Leviticus, you will find many behaviors that are called sins, or Abominations, even, that do not harm anyone. So we have to accept the possibility that there may be many things that seem to be sins, that do not harm anyone, but which may possibly offend God.

The Ten Commandments address only things that offend God, or harm another person.

Then we have the word of Christ, who seems to be defining sin, (or kindness), as "that which you have done unto the least of me" In other words, the important thing is, in the end, have you helped someone, or harmed them?

Google "Situation ethics", and see what you can learn.

I am going to stop here, as I am sure that many other people will have much more to add. Jen, you have asked a question that learned people have been discussing, and arguing for centuries.

Any one else? Bruce Chris

[Daniel]

Taught that our essential nature - our very essence- is that of enlightened beings. And as such, this nature- or as the Tibetans say- our Rigpa- is obscured by ignorance. Not only that, the Buddha also taught that everything that we think and do leaves a trace upon the mind, so that one is lead either towards or away from the awarness, if not the actual experience of enlightenment. As such, the mind can be trained.

I've met some seriously screwed up people during my life-time. One might consider them evil if only by the pleasure they took in causing another person pain. However, the assertion that there is such a thing as evil is misguided in my view. That gives a certainty - a concreteness - to darkness. This is, I believe, an illusion.

While it may indeed seem that evil is a real 'thing', once one starts to experience- and not just posit- the nature of reality through meditative awareness, one starts to see that things are not as they seem.

Our thoughts, like the coffee table, actually have a great deal of space around them.

This speaks to the nature of reality and the role of perception.

[Pablo Rafael]

I think that we live in a world where nothing is perfect and nothing intrinsically evil. I think the key factor as to whether something is good or bad comes from motivation. Something is evil when people are motivated in some way to help themselves at the expense of others. Why people do things tells more about them than what they do. Is the motivation one of love or hate?

It is handly to label people and ideas that disagree with me as evil. I think of President Bush's infamous "axis of evil" speech that singled out Iran. Yet in Iran many view the United States as the evil one. Dividing into good and evil is a simplistic idea. Good and evil exist in both American and Iranian societies.

In the struggle for gay rights it is also really easy to try to label the two sides as the good side and evil side. However, I am sure that many homophobic people do not have evil intent; they are just uneducated. I do think someone like Fred Phelps, however, could be considered evil. He makes it clear that his message is one of hate.

The statement "God is love" sums up the essence of God in my view. We come closer to God when our actions are directed by love. We become more evil the farther we get away from that love.

[Eugene]

I believe that people do evil things because there is a measure of evil in their hearts. And if people continue to choose evil, they become evil themselves. I think you need look no further than a history book or the newspaper to find proof.

[Zerbie]

I've met some seriously screwed up people during my life-time. One might consider them evil if only by the pleasure they took in causing another person pain. However, the assertion that there is such a thing as evil is misguided in my view. That gives a certainty - a concreteness - to darkness. This is, I believe, an illusion.

While it may indeed seem that evil is a real 'thing', once one starts to experience- and not just posit- the nature of reality through meditative awareness, one starts to see that things are not as they seem.


You're correct, but be very careful. "Evil" AS a thing may be temporary, partially (or wholly) subjective, or 'concrete' only in so far as the mind is affected, but let's not dismiss how very "real" its effects in practical terms. Remember. Even a meditator can be taken by surprise.

To dismiss the sometime actuality of evil is misguided, not the other way round.
To dismiss it, well that's like the little kid who responds to a house fire by hiding in the closet where he can't see it, in order to be safe. Hey - it's not accepted by his awareness, therefore it isn't "real" and it can't get him! Only, it was 'real,' and closing it out of perception is what causes his death by smoke inhalation.

Evil, best I can figure it, is an energy. Here's where I go all Star Wars on ya, but think of it as the 'dark side of the force' if you will. It isn't concrete; it does not have a body of its own. If it 'lives' at all, I suspect it lives on in the mind.

Evil may not be concrete, but when its energy causes harm, pain, destruction, and further evil-like actions -- it is having a severely deleterious effect despite how non-concrete it is. Some people never recover from evil-like acts perpetrated against them. That damage counts enormously.

Denying the possibility of evil puts us in very grave, very REAL, danger.
Unfortunately, so does too quickly adopting the view that something is 'evil.'

And that is the evil of evil. That whatever course of action you take in the attempts to evade, avoid, escape, deal with, or heal from it, your action may likely be to some extent dangerous or morally or ethically wrong.

Evil encourages you - no, it *demands* you - to abandon your kindness, your empathy, your individual godly conscience, your belief in anyone, your connection to the human species. Yet, and here again is the evil of evil, evil twists even the greatest action of love in order to produce more evil.

Most of what we run into on a regular basis is NOT some kind of non-dilute evil like I described above. Mostly we run into garden variety negativity or evil actions as distinct from non-dilute evil motivations -- greed, selfishness, laziness, 'twisting' truth to serve a mental agenda, things of that sort. These things do enough harm!!

Please read what I wrote above with the caveat that it applies only in extreme situations.
There is relatively little heavy 'evil' in the world. Most of our experiences are going to involve mixtures of qualities.

But please remember what I've told you: there is an extremely dangerous 'force' out there, which the word 'evil' seems to fit, which will always, always take the wrong path. To refuse to recognize it puts you and others in danger.

That said, the best thing to do about it is to not think about it, but instead to shine the light of your mind on to the most positive thoughts and actions you can think or imagine.

[Zerbie]

This discussion started in the "Rick Warren..." thread.

I don't believe that any person is evil, but that their actions may be.

I believe that accepting that some people are evil, is the first step to losing faith that anybody can change.

What are your opinions when it comes to accepting that some people are evil?

BTW Jen, don't "accept" evil. Just know it might be real.

Now, I think your position is the safer one than a quick readiness to name some people evil. Maybe no person is ever evil, but they die inside when evil gets strong enough to take over. I suspect that when we meet an 'evil person,' the real person is no longer there. So, in that sense, no one is ever evil.

Most people can change at any time at any catalyst, and usually not when asked to. You don't ever have to forfeit your faith in goodness. Your faith and your hope are among your strongest assets and you are correct to preserve them.

Just add a morsel of openness to the possibility of badness beyond all reason *sometimes* existing. Know that, in order to stay away from it, and to steer your loved ones clear of it. And may you never have to.

[Rick336]

I would define evil as "knowingly, and in our right mind" harming another person, or animal.

This seems like a good definition of "evil." But how does one distinguish between an action that is "evil" and one that is just bad? Where does one draw the line?

Is beating an animal evil? Many would say yes. But what about using a whip on a horse or kicking a dog that is crapping on your carpet? Evil or not?

What about slavery? Is it evil? I think it is, as do most people. But the Bible says slavery is okay. So is it evil or not?

Sin is defined many different ways, in the bible, or by church doctrine.

Sin is supposed to be God's law. But in order to believe in sin one has to believe that God wrote ancient scripture. There's no trustworthy evidence to support this belief. Therefore, sin is subjective.

The belief that homosexuality is a sin is nothing more than a subjective opinion just as believing that washing your car on Sunday is a sin.

Rick

[Rick336]

Evil, best I can figure it, is an energy. Here's where I go all Star Wars on ya, but think of it as the 'dark side of the force' if you will.

There are actually a handful of physicists that believe that everything in the universe is controlled by a force. Most physicists however, do not support this theory.


[Evil energy] isn't concrete; it does not have a body of its own. If it 'lives' at all, I suspect it lives on in the mind.

I agree with this. Evil doesn't float around in the air. If there is evil at all, it is created in a dysfunctional mind.

Rick

[Zerbie]

There are actually a handful of physicists that believe that everything in the universe is controlled by a force. Most physicists however, do not support this theory.


I agree with this. Evil doesn't float around in the air. If there is evil at all, it is created in a dysfunctional mind.

Rick

Actually, it wouldn't surprise me if it does float around in the air. 'Nuff on that.

RE the first statement above - this is an interesting topic. Where might I find more information about that? (I LOVE cosmology but my exposure is pretty limited to TV shows. Would love some book recommendations.)

Speaking of books, back to the evil topic: M. Scott Peck published a book some years ago called "People of the Lie" in which he attempts to tackle the subject of evil. It's been so long since I read it: I think he posits his definition of an evil person as one who expends energy deliberately avoiding true, accurate information to the extent that they become a menace to others. But again - it's been a lot of years. I might be distorting his premise.

[Zerbie]

Evil doesn't float around in the air. If there is evil at all, it is created in a dysfunctional mind.

Rick

The problem I have with this, now that I reflected for 10 seconds, is that a dysfunctional mind can (and will!) come to wrong conclusions and maladaptive behaviors in an attempt to produce good. This takes motivation off the table. I think if we are going to attempt to define evil, motivation has to be part of the picture. Otherwise, it is innocence gone horribly, horribly distorted. Which is how I think most evil actions come to happen. But the quality of evil, that quality has to possess ill intent.

[Rick336]

The problem I have with this, now that I reflected for 10 seconds, is that a dysfunctional mind can (and will!) come to wrong conclusions and maladaptive behaviors in an attempt to produce good. This takes motivation off the table. I think if we are going to attempt to define evil, motivation has to be part of the picture. Otherwise, it is innocence gone horribly, horribly distorted. Which is how I think most evil actions come to happen. But the quality of evil, that quality has to possess ill intent.

Yes. But some people are motivated to do wrong or "evil" because they believe what they are doing is right. Take revenge for instance. A person is "getting even" with someone because they believe it is the right thing to do, even if this "right thing" means killing someone or burning down a house.

Someone else may shoplift from a store because they believe shoplifting is "right" because they deserve nice things or because the store owners are jerks or because they want to impress their friends.

There was a great two-hour documentary on the History Channel in November about how scientists are discovering how the brain works including why some people are good and others are "evil." A description of the documentary "The Brain" says:

"Although today’s computers can make calculations in one-100th of a second and technology can transport us outside the bonds of Earth, only now are we beginning to understand the most complex machine in the universe. [The documentary] takes us inside the mind of a soldier under fire to see how decisions are made in extreme situations, examines how an autistic person like Rain Man develops remarkable skills, and takes on the age-old question of what makes one person good and another evil."

This documentary also examines Extra Sensory Perception and how a few physicists believe that ESP could be connected to a force in the universe that connects brain activity to this universal force. ( I'm still waiting for more convincing evidence on this theory )

The DVD will be available on January 27th. You can order the DVD here:
http://shop.history.com/detail.php?p=74261

Rick

[Zerbie]

Yes. But some people are motivated to do wrong or "evil" because they believe what they are doing is right.


Well, yes, I think we're mainly saying the same thing. I think if we're going to call the motivation evil, then we have to be talking about someone who knows that what they're doing is wrong but wants to do it anyway, fully knowing it is not 'right.' I think if someone believes that they're doing right, then while the action can be an evil action, they are not an evil person but a person operating off of incorrect data. These blinded actions can cause terrible horrors, and I believe this is 90% of what's wrong in society -- our actions based on faulty beliefs or blinded by greed, etc.


Someone else may shoplift from a store because they believe shoplifting is "right" because they deserve nice things or because the store owners are jerks or because they want to impress their friends.

That's actually not the sort of thing I had in mind, close though it is. Those are more examples of a skewed value system. Wanting to impress friends is not a "good" intent. I was referring more to extreme sorts of things than shoplifting and impressing friends.

For one specific example of the sort of thing I mean, I think of the story of Dave Pelzer. He has several books on the subject of recovery and empowerment. He was horrifically abused for years and years by his mother. Much later when in adulthood he confronted her about it, her response was something along the lines of "I had to fight the evil and I did." My interpretation of that bizarre response is that something triggered her mind to perceive her little boy as evil, and made her believe that by doing horrible things to him, she was fighting evil. That's the sort of horrible dysfunction I was thinking of. . . Starving and torturing your offspring and not evening 'getting' that it's wrong.
As problematic as skewed values, selfishness, and shoplifting are, they are simply not the same territory, which is why they didn't come to mind in a discussion of 'evil.'



There was a great two-hour documentary on the History Channel in November about how scientists are discovering how the brain works including why some people are good and others are "evil."


The DVD will be available on January 27th. You can order the DVD here:
http://shop.history.com/detail.php?p=74261

Rick

Interesting discussion - I might get that DVD. Thanks, Rick.

[sarahbina]

The statement "God is love" sums up the essence of God in my view. We come closer to God when our actions are directed by love. We become more evil the farther we get away from that love.

I add to this statement and observation,

God is Love, God is the Creator of all that is, was, and will be. And so evil is? Evil is the opposite of the the Creator. God is giving, man is egoistically receiving. Man is evil by that virtue, but not evil llike we think of Darth Vadar, satan, etc. Not evil because we sin. Certainly not evil because of who we love or how we love them.

We simply are humans who are born with the will to receive and we need to yearn to be like God, to achieve His qualities (and we can still do this while choosing to live our lives partnered with someone of the same gender). God made us this way. God made us with the human quality of the will to receive, with this ego, and God made us love women even if we are women, etc. So, why did we get made with the will to receive, in this way opposite of God? God wanted to give and so He needed creatures to give to. And so that we could not feel shame from only receiving, He gave us the ability to use the will to receive to transcend it with the desire to be like the Creator, to be giving of love as well.

And so then, what about all the bad stuff you guys cited? Wait a minute, if God is only giving and only Love and there is only God what is all this bad stuff. Yes, it is here, but not because the doer is evil or sinful, but rather because God administers suffering and blows to get us to desire Him, to realize the ego alone, the will to receive alone doesn't get us the happiness we desire.

We have to want with the bottom of our hearts to be like God so that we can be. To really reveal God while we are here on Earth.

[tymejumper]

To me, Evil is a very subjective thing.

I will not say that I am a Christian, I do not consider myself one, although I do have a great amount of faith in a guiding force. Therefore I believe that I have a pretty philosophical view on the subject.

I do not believe, for instance, that demons can inhabit a person like on the Exorsist, that to me would be pure evil. The world is not all black and white and therefore there are not that many cases of pure evil out there. I used to believe that there were, but as I have lived my life I find it is not so.

For instance, most all of us would agree, I assume that Nazi's are evil and it was a horrible thing they did. It was not until I had a client that WAS a Nazi that I began to understand that not all Nazi's were evil. This particular persons family was threatened if he refused to enter Hilters army. What choice would you make? Your children's lives or being a Nazi, which you abhor? Does that make him evil? Or does the sin of evil fall on Hitler and his tactics?

What about the official that has to make a decision to sacrifice 1,000 persons or only 10? Surely it would be evil to the 10 and their families that they were sacrificed. What about to the 1,000 saved? Is that evil?

What about the serial killer? Let's say, just for fun here, Dexter? He is a serial killer that kills serial killers that harm children and that escape the law. He always makes sure that he has evidience of the persons wrong doing first, does that make him evil? What about Ted Bundy? Was he evil or was it society that was evil for ignoring his mental problems that surely gave off red flags, and not getting him the help he needed to prevent the murders?

Drug dealers are evil, right? Especially when they sell to children. What about the father whom has lost his job, can't get help and sees no way to feed his children? Is that evil?

This is what I mean about evil. I try to judge evil on the scale of amount of innocence is harmed vs. amount that is helped. The more innocent that pay, the more evil I feel the person or entity is. That is how I make my decisions. The boss that fires people and is nasty is not evil, the person that molests their child is very evil(ie: the innocent are harmed beyond fixing most times). Children are innocent so therefore anything that harms them or steals their innocence is higher on the scale of evil to me than things that harm adults.

Warren? Evil? nope, sadly misinformed, nasty and very ignorant, yes. Yes he will harm children of gay and lesbian families, but not in such a way that can't be fixed or delt with. I don't believe that most gay haters are evil either. They are very sad and frightened people, I try to keep that in mind when I classify them as evil or not.

To me you can't just classify others as evil without weighing different factors.

That's my opinion and I'm stickin to it.

[BruceChris]

Tyme, Charles Bronson played a victim/charactor who beat up (or worse) criminals who attacked him, in a couple of movies, some years back.

Zerbie, the best book on cosmology for non-physicists that I have found is Stephen Hawking's "A Brief History of Time". It was written for non technical people, and is very un-eletist. However, I have read it 10 or more times, and my head still spins. Good luck.

BC

[Jennifer5]

BTW Jen, don't "accept" evil. Just know it might be real.

Now, I think your position is the safer one than a quick readiness to name some people evil. Maybe no person is ever evil, but they die inside when evil gets strong enough to take over. I suspect that when we meet an 'evil person,' the real person is no longer there. So, in that sense, no one is ever evil.

Most people can change at any time at any catalyst, and usually not when asked to. You don't ever have to forfeit your faith in goodness. Your faith and your hope are among your strongest assets and you are correct to preserve them.

Just add a morsel of openness to the possibility of badness beyond all reason *sometimes* existing. Know that, in order to stay away from it, and to steer your loved ones clear of it. And may you never have to.
You have no idea much this response meant to me. :'(:love:

Tonight over dinner a lot of hard things came up from the past, along with many other things that were a bit challenging to process. When I read this response, I felt oddly relieved. The paragraph that I bolded, I completely agree with.

To me, Evil is a very subjective thing.

This is what I mean about evil. I try to judge evil on the scale of amount of innocence is harmed vs. amount that is helped. The more innocent that pay, the more evil I feel the person or entity is. That is how I make my decisions. The boss that fires people and is nasty is not evil, the person that molests their child is very evil(ie: the innocent are harmed beyond fixing most times). Children are innocent so therefore anything that harms them or steals their innocence is higher on the scale of evil to me than things that harm adults.

Warren? Evil? nope, sadly misinformed, nasty and very ignorant, yes. Yes he will harm children of gay and lesbian families, but not in such a way that can't be fixed or delt with. I don't believe that most gay haters are evil either. They are very sad and frightened people, I try to keep that in mind when I classify them as evil or not.

To me you can't just classify others as evil without weighing different factors.

That's my opinion and I'm stickin to it.
I agree with you and I think that also brings us back to the question of 'what was the intent?'

I agree that Warren is not evil, but some people will disagree.

I agree that the man who has become a drug dealer to feed his family, is not evil.

I agree that the individual who became a Nazi to avoid having their entire family killed, is not evil.

I believe that the best word in any of these situations is usually "scared." When people live in fear, they cannot think clearly and they can make very bad decisions from time to time. I believe that when considering someone "evil" we forget to look at it from all sides. I believe that nothing can be considered "evil" if the action is actually well intentioned.

[Vortex]

I have not posted here in a long time, but I have been reading posts when I can. This is such a great community whose flow of ideas has been very enlightening to me. Even though you are all strangers to me, your words strengthen me more than you will ever know, so thank you. I was reading the Rick Warren forum as well the other day and seeing the discussion on Evil. And there was Jennifer in there fighting the good fight. Not just a fight for her faith in human beings (which I find quite admirable by the way) but a fight to resist the urge to build boundaries between ourselves. They say the youthful eye comes with a naïve look upon things. Well I say, sometimes it takes the eyes of youth to see past our own hopelessness.

I believe that accepting that some people are evil, is the first step to losing faith that anybody can change.

Thank you Jenn

My thoughts on Evil:

When I tell people that I do not believe in Evil, the usual response varies from a strange stare to outright laughter. Why so? I suppose because they tend to see my position as being somewhat naïve. I take the position that I do, not because I have some overriding belief or faith that human being are somehow inherently good, but for the fact that our understanding of human beings (ourselves) especially as it relates to behavior is quite limited. It is out this ignorance of ourselves that I think arises the need for such labeling as the word Evil.

You of course do not have to take my word on this, ask yourself the questions surrounding what you see as Evil in the world. Think of something, someone or whatever, that you attribute to being evil. Why is it Evil? Is it because we have defined in our own minds a level of understanding for what human nature encompasses (a norm if you will) and therefore anything outside this norm is some sort of aberration that we need not look into. Instead we satisfy ourselves with labeling it Evil and thereby ending any future investigation into said behavior. Do you not see that labeling something as Evil is the easy way out of a problem. You see something that frightens and repulses you and rather than understand what it is and how it relates to who we are as human being, we would rather just call it Evil and be done with it. My friends there is no Love in this. We all here believe in the strength of Love, and probably agree that there can be no Love if it not for understanding. So when you take understanding out of your approach to other human beings it only breeds indifference (we know this better than most) and there is no Love in such an approach.

We see this exampled quite literally when it comes to many people’s approach to homosexuality. We say to them that being Gay is not a choice that we are born this way. In this we possess an inherent truth that is not readily apparent to someone who is straight. There exist ignorance, and out of this we see indifference and the labeling of homosexuality as being not normal or Evil. As I stated before though, this is the easy way out. No investigation required, no understanding needed, if I see something that does not encompass my understanding of human nature I just call it Evil, rather than break down any barriers of ignorance that exist.

We are who we are (as human beings). The good we see, the bad, all of these qualities make us who we are. We cannot just shed that which we do not understand about ourselves and call it Evil for the sake of simplicity. This only works to set boundaries between ourselves, we have too many boundaries in the world today. Love, understanding, truth these are the virtues to which we espouse ourselves, not ignorance. Those who can actually remember any of my old posts know that I put a great deal of emphasis on not allowing fear to be a motivator in ones actions. Well the truth is we are afraid, all of us. Not of the word Evil, or what we think it means or represents, but of knowing. Knowing how the enslaving of an entire race of people could ever be just, how the systematic killing of 6 millions human lives could ever be tolerable, how leaving a young man to die strapped to a fence in the middle of a field could ever be anything more than inhumane, or simply knowing how in a world where Love exist could hate also exist along with it.

We are afraid of knowing.
We are afraid of knowing ourselves.

With Love,
Vortex

[Jennifer5]

I have not posted here in a long time, but I have been reading posts when I can. This is such a great community whose flow of ideas has been very enlightening to me. Even though you are all strangers to me, your words strengthen me more than you will ever know, so thank you. I was reading the Rick Warren forum as well the other day and seeing the discussion on Evil. And there was Jennifer in there fighting the good fight. Not just a fight for her faith in human beings (which I find quite admirable by the way) but a fight to resist the urge to build boundaries between ourselves. They say the youthful eye comes with a naïve look upon things. Well I say, sometimes it takes the eyes of youth to see past our own hopelessness.


Thank you Jenn

My thoughts on Evil:

When I tell people that I do not believe in Evil, the usual response varies from a strange stare to outright laughter. Why so? I suppose because they tend to see my position as being somewhat naïve. I take the position that I do, not because I have some overriding belief or faith that human being are somehow inherently good, but for the fact that our understanding of human beings (ourselves) especially as it relates to behavior is quite limited. It is out this ignorance of ourselves that I think arises the need for such labeling as the word Evil.

You of course do not have to take my word on this, ask yourself the questions surrounding what you see as Evil in the world. Think of something, someone or whatever, that you attribute to being evil. Why is it Evil? Is it because we have defined in our own minds a level of understanding for what human nature encompasses (a norm if you will) and therefore anything outside this norm is some sort of aberration that we need not look into. Instead we satisfy ourselves with labeling it Evil and thereby ending any future investigation into said behavior. Do you not see that labeling something as Evil is the easy way out of a problem. You see something that frightens and repulses you and rather than understand what it is and how it relates to who we are as human being, we would rather just call it Evil and be done with it. My friends there is no Love in this. We all here believe in the strength of Love, and probably agree that there can be no Love if it not for understanding. So when you take understanding out of your approach to other human beings it only breeds indifference (we know this better than most) and there is no Love in such an approach.

We see this exampled quite literally when it comes to many people’s approach to homosexuality. We say to them that being Gay is not a choice that we are born this way. In this we possess an inherent truth that is not readily apparent to someone who is straight. There exist ignorance, and out of this we see indifference and the labeling of homosexuality as being not normal or Evil. As I stated before though, this is the easy way out. No investigation required, no understanding needed, if I see something that does not encompass my understanding of human nature I just call it Evil, rather than break down any barriers of ignorance that exist.

We are who we are (as human beings). The good we see, the bad, all of these qualities make us who we are. We cannot just shed that which we do not understand about ourselves and call it Evil for the sake of simplicity. This only works to set boundaries between ourselves, we have too many boundaries in the world today. Love, understanding, truth these are the virtues to which we espouse ourselves, not ignorance. Those who can actually remember any of my old posts know that I put a great deal of emphasis on not allowing fear to be a motivator in ones actions. Well the truth is we are afraid, all of us. Not of the word Evil, or what we think it means or represents, but of knowing. Knowing how the enslaving of an entire race of people could ever be just, how the systematic killing of 6 millions human lives could ever be tolerable, how leaving a young man to die strapped to a fence in the middle of a field could ever be anything more than inhumane, or simply knowing how in a world where Love exist could hate also exist along with it.

We are afraid of knowing.
We are afraid of knowing ourselves.

With Love,
Vortex
I need to say to you, and everyone else who brought it up, thank you. It is encouraging to know that there are people that agree with where I stand on this issue.

Vortex, when you mentioned the reaction you get when you say that you do not believe in evil, I could completely relate. My family has been put through a lot by my father (although, I am always grateful because I know that it could have been much worse)... and every time the stories are told, there is usually at least one person who asks if we hate him for what he did you us (which would really be the exact same thing as thinking he was evil). My response is always "no", and people are shocked by it.

I don't understand how it is that we live in a world where it is so hard to comprehend how someone could not hate anything or believe in evil.

I think very highly of your stand on this. :)

[Emproph]

I haven’t fully digested the posts that have occurred since I started writing this, but I want to post it because it’s as complete a thought on the matter as I’m going to get right now. :)

Ok, someone with sociopathic tendencies is not exactly what I call evil and I suppose we that some people are 'evil' is I don't agree with you on this.

I refuse to believe that some people are "evil", but perhaps you could convince me that some people make these bad decisions because they are sick.

Jennifer, I tend to be blunt when I describe things. I feel that sweetening things up too often just muddies the meaning.

So I see the objection you take to the description of someone being evil. My point with the use of that word is to convey the full impact of the danger behind it.

Sociopathy / psychopathy is diagnosable and is scientific. Some people literally have no conscience to speak of. They live for themselves alone. They feel no guilt or remorse for anything they do, no matter how much they may hurt someone to get what they want.

But from what I’ve been reading about sociopaths/psychopaths, is that it really is something they can’t control. For the most part, they don’t understand what empathy or love is.

Carrying the tranquilzer gun around the wild animal is simply being cautious. We are not assuming that the animal is evil we just know that is has much to learn or that it is against it nature to be nice to us.

Correct, and this is all I’m asking for. Recognize and appreciate the reality of the danger. Which answers your next question:

So, if I can't agree with you that some people are evil... where are we going to find out common ground? Because I know it's here somewhere.

When I refer to people as evil, it’s wrong on my part. But because I have zero tolerance for evil behavior, I naturally make it a point to be stark when describing what I would consider to be evil behavior.

I think the way you put it in the part I bolded above says what I mean, but in the non-violent (Soulforce) / good person framework that you seek. I see nothing wrong with the way you described it.

Essentially, they’re emotionally disabled. The problem is, as I said before, is that there’s really no way to convince them that there’s anything wrong with them, because feeling only the need for self-gratification is their nature.

Now, that realization eliminates the need to hate part, but not the reality of human behaviors that inspire hatred.

Zerbie puts the impact of its meaning into more palatable terms:
You must not refuse to believe in the possibility of evil overtaking some people, however rarely.

Consider: evil itself IS the sickness. It is very rare, but some few people have been completely covered over by it, and there is nothing functional left of them but the sickness.

To refuse to believe in evil can give evil free range with which to act. It will take advantage of your goodness to hide itself from your notice while it increases the damage it does.

By all means, consider it exceptionally rare, but do not 'refuse' to acknowledge its presence in the world.

A Course in Miracles says: “The opposite of love is fear, but what is all-encompassing can have no opposite (http://www.acim.org/AboutACIM/what_it_says.html).”

Meaning that Love is all encompassing. It says that attack should be seen as a call for love (http://www.facim.org/acim/theory.htm).

Which is precisely how I would define “evil.”

It’s not a force in and of itself. What most of us would consider to be the attributes of evil are the result of a lack of love.

The thing with sociopaths, the marauders of human history, is that they don’t even know what love is. Thus they don’t perceive any lack of it. Any love directed toward them is seen solely as an opportunity to be taken advantage of. And yes, this is scientific and measurable.

My point here is along with what Zerbie said above, that as rare as this may be, the seriousness of the threat needs to be acknowledged.

And that may be where we disagree -- on the seriousness of the matter. And that’s fine, I can back that seriousness up, and I don’t expect you to have surfed the web and sparred with all the anti-gays that I have.

The problem I have is when that seriousness is being aggressively dismissed and minimized without providing evidence.

I think Zerbie really puts things into perspective here:
Denying the possibility of evil puts us in very grave, very REAL, danger.
Unfortunately, so does too quickly adopting the view that something is 'evil.'

And that is the evil of evil. That whatever course of action you take in the attempts to evade, avoid, escape, deal with, or heal from it, your action may likely be to some extent dangerous or morally or ethically wrong.

Evil encourages you - no, it *demands* you - to abandon your kindness, your empathy, your individual godly conscience, your belief in anyone, your connection to the human species. Yet, and here again is the evil of evil, evil twists even the greatest action of love in order to produce more evil.

If the effects of evil can be seen as being the result of the absence of love, then true evil could be considered to be the love of the absence of love.

Just something to keep in mind as far as definitions and concepts go.

And I agree with Daniel and Zerbie from your “Believing” thread. It’s not an all or nothing proposition. It’s a constant challenge.
So maybe a new question is in order:
How do you believe in the best of people, without overlooking the realities? Jen, this is important: when it comes to 'believing in' people, it is NOT an all or nothing proposition. You don't have to choose between having absolute implicit faith and trust in everything a person says or does, and having absolutely no faith or trust in him at all. Every relationship we are likely to have with other people will involve degrees of trust and confidence.being able and willing to hold a paradox

Why do we resort to all or nothing thinking?

My sense is that we all too easily desire to make everything about life as concrete as possible. We even think that our thoughts are like concrete- real- touchable- definite- not to be messed with.

All or nothing thinking is, I believe, the product of a mind which has yet to be able to grasp the profundity what can only be described as paradox.

As the saying goes: “The price of freedom requires eternal vigilance.”

Or in this case, you might say that the price of accuracy requires constant attention.

And yes, it’s heartbreaking to have to hold out the potential worst in people. But to do less than that, is to open yourself and your loved ones up to avoidable danger. And even beyond that, sometimes you just have to let things go and not worry about it - constant worry will drive you insane.

Point being, it goes back to what I was saying, it’s a constant challenge. Essentially, be willing to expect the worst, but hope for the best.

The good news, in my opinion, is that if you put the effort into this challenge, eventually -- through experience -- you’ll get used to assessing people and circumstances, and will know intuitively how to respond, thus taking the arduousness of the effort out of it.

But, I can’t stress enough, it needs to be understood and accepted that some people do not have the brain capacity to feel normal emotions, and are human predators, just as sure as the brutality of any wild animal. And they don’t wear a bell, but often times wear an air of disarming charm.

As christa also said in that thread:
The more friends I make, the more I lose faith in people in general. There are the few that you can trust but they are rare and need to be cherished.

I have found this to be true.

But the redeeming news is in knowing that you’re not one of them. You’re not one of the people who callously or irresponsibly lets people down. And in addition, you’re not alone. And in addition to that, you’re not alone in feeling that you’re alone.
___
P.S. Nice to see you Vortex.

[Rick336]

But, I can’t stress enough, it needs to be understood and accepted that some people do not have the brain capacity to feel normal emotions, and are human predators, just as sure as the brutality of any wild animal. And they don’t wear a bell, but often times wear an air of disarming charm.

This is interesting. Is this a physical brain defect? Please elaborate.

Thanks.

Rick

[tdogg]

I believe evil is in the heart of the person. It's the status of the heart, or 'why' something is done that makes it evil. Maybe insensitivity helps further a heart towards evil. Maybe certain hearts have a tendency toward that anyway.

I believe truly evil hearts are not common. Often hurts are done out of inconsideration, ignorance, fear, anger, etc. I'm not confident that makes someone evil. But those who hurt others because they enjoy it, I would call that evil.

I like to trust people and think most have kind hearts. But I'm also wary, and on guard for those who don't. If you are in touch with your self, then you can probably sense another's heart, or at least get some sense of their motives. I only ever met one person that my soul seemed repellant towards. There was nothing on the surface that gave any indication of the repulsion my 'insides' felt towards this person when I shook their hand. It was weird.

My brother is a convicted felon with a strike against him. He assaulted a police officer, probably with a knife (not a gun). It took 5 to finally take him down after they cased him around for a year or so. He served a year, went to truck driving school and prefers to live off my stepmom and dad (and I'm the black sheep of that family!). Evil? No, but deranged thanks to drugs and a lack of self-confidence and self-control. My family that treats me worse than him? Sometimes it feels like evil, but I know it's because they fear what they don't know and are terrified to lose their salvation and possibly face what they've been taught about hell.

[Jennifer5]

Great response Patrick, I agree with a lot of what you said.

I think that you're in the same mind set as I am, since you brought up the "believing" thread, because that absolutely goes with this.

Essentially, they’re emotionally disabled. The problem is, as I said before, is that there’s really no way to convince them that there’s anything wrong with them, because feeling only the need for self-gratification is their nature.
I guess that I do agree with this to some point, the difference was how we look at it.

I think that what Zerbie said about it really not being the person at all at that point, was a good way of putting it. I think that a sociopath has been taken over by a 'disease' in a way and that person is no longer there.

If the effects of evil can be seen as being the result of the absence of love, then true evil could be considered to be the love of the absence of love.
This really stood out for me and I think that you said it perfectly, at least in my opinion.

"True evil is the love of the the absence of love."

I think this may be the best description so far.

[wmanion]

Evil is usually defined much like beauty. It is in the eyes of the beholder(s). For example, the men who flied into the Twin towers are probably viewed by many Americans as being evil because of the many lives that were lost that day. However, among some of those who shared the same Islamic beliefs, these men were heroes and went on to receive an award from God for attacking the evil America. We have to remember that each society defines its own definition of what is evil and what is not. In the Bible Jesus said "you being evil give good gifts, so much more will the father give to those that ask." If you look at the word evil in this verse it is merely pointing to the fact that we are all sinners, not the pure evil that many associate with the word evil. There are people in each society that are considered good while others are considered bad. However, we must remember that good people, often do bad things. Likewise, those considered bad, often do good things. Another example, would be Rick Warren who basically is a good man and does many good things, however his message of hate which leads to violence and destroys lives is a bad thing. Evil may not be the individual, but rather the results that manifested because of the deeds of the individual. I guess it is just a matter of perception based on our personal beliefs and the societal beliefs that are being taught.

Bill

[Jennifer5]

Evil is usually defined much like beauty. It is in the eyes of the beholder(s). For example, the men who flied into the Twin towers are probably viewed by many Americans as being evil because of the many lives that were lost that day. However, among some of those who shared the same Islamic beliefs, these men were heroes and went on to receive an award from God for attacking the evil America. We have to remember that each society defines its own definition of what is evil and what is not. In the Bible Jesus said "you being evil give good gifts, so much more will the father give to those that ask." If you look at the word evil in this verse it is merely pointing to the fact that we are all sinners, not the pure evil that many associate with the word evil. There are people in each society that are considered good while others are considered bad. However, we must remember that good people, often do bad things. Likewise, those considered bad, often do good things. Another example, would be Rick Warren who basically is a good man and does many good things, however his message of hate which leads to violence and destroys lives is a bad thing. Evil may not be the individual, but rather the results that manifested because of the deeds of the individual. I guess it is just a matter of perception based on our personal beliefs and the societal beliefs that are being taught.

Bill
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[BruceChris]

Perhaps one necessary part of someone being evil is for them to be aware of what they are doing, and how it is harming others. By this definition, a lot of people choose to simply opt out.

At times it may be hard for an alcoholic to go swimming in De Nile*, because he keeps getting crowded out by all of the common hypocrites. They're not doing anything wrong, just ask them.

Peace and Love, Bruce Chris

*O.K., denial