Any Ideas on Giving Away a Church?

[andrewlittle]

I’ll probably need to unpack that title a little. I was hired, as the minister, to give away the church I serve. It’s not that the congregation doesn’t want it anymore - it’s that they’ve gotten quite small in number - small enough, in fact, that “common” sense would ordinarily dictate closing down and moving in with another church. There’s only basic problem with that - this is the only church found within the community and it’s located close to the center of this particular neighborhood in Schenectady. So, I have been charged with inviting in a whole new congregation who would adopt the church as their own and, in the process be adopted by the current members as heirs of the church. The basic scenario looks like this:

There is this very small, remnant congregation on Avenue A in Schenectady. These are truly very lovely and courageous people - I mean that, I’m not being ministerial. Rather than do what most would do, go into hospice care and close up shop, this group decided instead to suffer the expense and risk of calling a full-time pastor. They are putting the property and modest endowment to use to try to make sure that a church remains in the community once they are - well, gone. I, for one, applaud their faithfulness.

One difficulty is that the current congregation is largely, but not exclusively Scot-American, which is why it’s a Presbyterian Church. Most of the members no longer live in the immediate community, although most are not too far away and sincerely love the community. The area, of course has changed - what really hasn’t in upstate New York. Now the community is made up of a fabulous cultural tapestry of Guyanese of Indian descent, Hispanic, African-American, recent African and Central American immigrants, along with a reasonable remaining contingent of Italian Americans. It also has a sizeable population of HIV-AIDS sufferers, many working and non-working poor, buildings in a wide assortment of conditions, and a great many absentee landlords.

In short, the congregation no longer has, and really hasn’t had for some years, a relationship with the community beyond the food pantry which has been in place since 1998. The congregation loves the neighborhood, but doesn’t know it’s neighbors. We’ve been working on that but, since many members are well into retirement, it isn’t easy to find ways that they can engage with the community.

We are doing quite a few things, which I won’t detail at this point. That is because I don’t want to season the stew before you start adding ingredients. I would really appreciate it if you would offer your thoughts, observations, ideas, questions or whatever to help us think and act through this process. many heads are better than a few - but a few is all we have. So we need you in the worst way to help us determine if there are things we’ve overlooked. No idea is bad - don’t assume we’ve done anything - just throw out possibilities and let’s see where they land. If you don’t have ideas, but have a friend of a friend who is a church giving away guru, give them our site and get them involved, would you?

Will you help? I can provide whatever other information you need - just ask. Let’s use the reply area, if you will, and let’s start now. Please.

[Jennifer5]

I don't fully understand what you're saying. You are trying to sell your church building? Or are you trying to rent out half of it to another congregation? Or...

[andrewlittle]

I don't fully understand what you're saying. You are trying to sell your church building? Or are you trying to rent out half of it to another congregation? Or...

It's like the congregation wants to leave it, in their will, to another ciongregation - building and funds. Except, they want to do that before they die.

That may sound harsh - but it's their intent not mine, and I think it's a very brave thing to do.

My job, then, is to build a "new" congregation to take over the church.

[Daniel]

Is there a 'start'up' community of faith within the surrounding area that is looking for a home? This might entail a co-pastor situation?

Thought of this because there is a congregation in my area (behind Juilliard actually) that has done this. They have different services (Korean and Pres) on Sunday AM, and then get together for big stuff, like Xmas and Easter. I sang at the Easter service.

It's a problem having a big- or nice buidling- and not have a congregation to fill it.

[andrewlittle]

Right now I have a service to do. Don't want you to think I didn't hear you, Daniel.

Is there a 'start'up' community of faith within the surrounding area that is looking for a home? This might entail a co-pastor situation?

Thought of this because there is a congregation in my area (behind Juilliard actually) that has done this. They have different services (Korean and Pres) on Sunday AM, and then get together for big stuff, like Xmas and Easter. I sang at the Easter service.

It's a problem having a big- or nice buidling- and not have a congregation to fill it.

[keltic63]

I'm playing at a church this morning (same place as last sunday) that has this very problem, except that they are in denial about the imminent death of this congregation. The building is huge, beautiful, and so expensive to maintain and heat. and in that community, there are at least 5 other congregations in the same situation.


would the present congregation alter the worship service to accommodate their neighbors? new forms of music, instruments, languages, etc?

[BruceChris]

The same as the church building, fer cryin' out loud. Well, O.K., maybe you are Transitioning a church.

Andy, it would seem at first that your task is pretty obvious.

It would seem to be a matter of finding all of the people, and groups of people who would be attracted to a common church identity, and figuring out as well as you can what that identity would be.

It would seem reasonable, inevitable even, that your church would have to consist of diverse sub-groups, with a goal of much sharing and integration, as time goes on. With each group having a leader, functioning perhaps as a co-pastor of sorts

From what you say of the neighborhood, this would involve a lot of legwork. You will need a great number of helpers, someone(s) on the order of a bunch of ethnically diverse young Barack Obama wannabe's.

A pretty tall order. Life, like politics, seems to be the art of the possible. Are you sure you're up to it? How/where can you get the help you need?

Andy, where I have made incorrect assumptions, please fill me in

Peace and Love, Bruce Chris

[andrewlittle]

Is there a 'start'up' community of faith within the surrounding area that is looking for a home? This might entail a co-pastor situation?

Thought of this because there is a congregation in my area (behind Juilliard actually) that has done this. They have different services (Korean and Pres) on Sunday AM, and then get together for big stuff, like Xmas and Easter. I sang at the Easter service.

It's a problem having a big- or nice buidling- and not have a congregation to fill it.

To go backwards - the building itself is not grand, nor huge. It is manageable maintenance wise, even though its 105 years old.

We do have a pentecostal church who worships in the afternoon. They are really lovely people, but they all come from a distance to go there. They have not attracted local folks. Part of this is that the local folks are those that this church preaches against - we know how that can hurt.

I believe the church that takes Westminster's place needs to be of the community. I am still looking for that possibility, however, of finding a start-up in need of a home.

Jenna and I have also examined the possibility of a joint Presbyterian/Church Within a Church start-up - a hybrid, justice seeking, wholly inclusive church. There is still some reservation on the part of the present congregation to hold onto old notions of church, however. Part of my job is to keep reminding them thta they have to let go.

Anyway, don't stop - make me flesh it out.

[andrewlittle]

would the present congregation alter the worship service to accommodate their neighbors? new forms of music, instruments, languages, etc?

I am working on them in that regard. I believe they would if the changes were in response to new folks, and not just a crap-shoot in the dark.

We have done some with different languages in the service - and an occasional visitor who is from Hong Kong is a member. She now prays in her native tongue whenever we pray aloud. I have incorporated some African and othe hymns, which they will sing - but all the strong voices have died. They need some voices to lead them.

[andrewlittle]

The same as the church building, fer cryin' out loud. Well, O.K., maybe you are Transitioning a church.
That is a far better way of saying it, perhaps. The ideal (theirs, not mine) is for it to continue as a Presbyterian Church. I don't have that condition, though.

Andy, it would seem at first that your task is pretty obvious.

It would seem to be a matter of finding all of the people, and groups of people who would be attracted to a common church identity, and figuring out as well as you can what that identity would be.
I have been working on this and making inroads - trust is something that develops slowly, though. We've talked a lot about how the identity of the church would change, and I have to say that some of the current members are excited about that prospect.

It would seem reasonable, inevitable even, that your church would have to consist of diverse sub-groups, with a goal of much sharing and integration, as time goes on. With each group having a leader, functioning perhaps as a co-pastor of sorts

From what you say of the neighborhood, this would involve a lot of legwork. You will need a great number of helpers, someone(s) on the order of a bunch of ethnically diverse young Barack Obama wannabe's.
Okay, I know whjat you said here, but you added some wrinkles that peaked my interest. Interesting thoughts - I will come back with questions and comments.

A pretty tall order. Life, like politics, seems to be the art of the possible. Are you sure you're up to it? How/where can you get the help you need?

Andy, where I have made incorrect assumptions, please fill me in

Peace and Love, Bruce Chris

I like the impossible, but recognize that as God's job. I will keep doing all that I can, believing the impossible is entirely possible. Good question about help, I am working on some people who may just be ready.

No wrong assumptions that I can tell, Bruce.

[andrewlittle]

I wrote this in a newsletter to the public:

I'm guessing that the headline sounds crass to some folks. I can understand that. The reality is, however, that is essentially the job I was hired to do as the minister of WUPC. Invite in a whole new congregation who would adopt the church as their own and, in the process be adopted by the current members as heirs of the church. The basic scenario looks like this:

There is this very small, remnant congregation right here on Avenue A in Schenectady. These are truly very lovely and courageous people. Rather than do what "common" sense would dictate, go into hospice care and close up shop, as many churches do, this group decided instead to suffer the expense and risk of calling a full-time pastor. That should beg the question, "Why?"

"Why", you ask, "would they do this?" Well, thanks for asking.

Essentially, they know a few things to be true. They know that, while they have all been part of this community for many, many years, they no longer represent the community's population. There used to be a significant number of Scots, and therefore Presbyterians, living in this zipcode. Those days are long gone, however. Now, you live here.

Who are you? You are someone who is likely to be of a different ethnicity or culture than this congregation. You are likely to be someone who these people don't know how to reach out to, even in the love they wish to show you - the love that says, "Look! We have a faith tradition upon which you can build a new worshipping community. We know faith has been the stallwort support of our lives, and we want you to have that same kind of strength and love that has nurtured us all our lives, so you can thrive as we have thrived."

This congregation also knows that you may not be attracted by the style of worship they find spiritually inspiring. But they know something else. They know that the style you might find empowering may also feel powerful to them during their remaining years. There are also people here, some of them quite young, who already know that they enjoy a wide variety of worship styles. And so, they also know that you have to be given the wherewithal to help determine what worship looks, sounds and feel like. The trouble is that they can't tell you that unless they can meet you and talk with you.

That is the problem to overcome. They don't know you - you don't know them.

Now I'm going to do one of those sickening things a pastor does. I'm going to reframe the problem into an advantage. It has been said that a problem isn't really a problem, it's an opportunity. See, I told it was sickening. But, it's also true.

The congregation's realization of the problem points to the only sensible solution. We all need to meet face-to-face. Another problem, however, is that this small, remarkable group of people don't really know how to do that except to invite you into their spiritual home and offer you the ultimate hospitality - to give you their church home. That, then, becomes your opportunity. Do you have the solution to it?

Now, if you take this opportunity seriously, there should very quickly be some apparent differences of opinion and small problems to overcome. But, that is why I'm here - to help facilitate imaginative thinking and problem-solving that can lead to a new, vital worshipping home for generations to come.

So, let's say you come to see us, and you find us to be a small number of mostly white, elderly folk who like a certain kind of service with traditional hymns and the like - not all of us, but many of us. You may feel like you don't fit in. Remember, though, that these people want you to take over from them. That means that it won't be any more your job to fit in with us than it is ours to fit in with you. What we would need to do is listen to each other and start to transform the church from what it has been to what it will be.

We already know we're willing to work with you to move towards a service that's meaningful to you. Are you willing to work with us by coming in while the service isn't necessarily your cup of tea? Are you willing to have some say on what changes occur and when, so a different kind of life can grow out of these well established roots and solid walls? Let's face, this church is sitting on a pretty strong foundation of faith.

Then there's another thing. These folk like to sing - if they have leaders who can help them carry the tunes. The really strong singers have passed. This means that they don't get as much out of hymn singing as they once used to. So, if you like to sing old spirituals, gospel songs or more modern faith songs, and you have a yen to belt out your voice with passion and joy, there will be standing ready quite a few people who would love to join in.

Now, that brings us to the music. And for that, we already have the perfect solution. Her name is Kathy Jensen - perhaps the best church organist in the world. Okay, you may think that's an exaggeration, but we don't. Kathy just loves to play, and she plays with more life than anyone has a right to. She just needs to know what you'd like to sing to. And she can't know that unless you come and tell her.

It should be obvious by now that there really is only one problem. We don't know you - you don't know us. To me the siolution is pretty obvious. Come see us. Come teach us how to be your church - a church that lives into future generations in meaningful and powerful ways.

You are the solution.

It has been pout there about a week, now.

[BenL]

Andy,

It sounds like the congregation considers this transition a matter of urgency even while they don't quite understand it themselves yet. So, the scenario I outline below may seem to take too much time, but I'll put it out there anyway in case some parts of it hold appeal.

At All Saints, Worcester MA, an inner-city Episcopal church, we began a neighborhood ministry almost 10 years ago. We started in the late winter with a 10-week examination of the Gospel of Mark to find the urgent gospel underpinnings for our efforts. Then in late June or early July, when the daylight lasts longest, we started a series of neighborhood walks by parishioners to get to know our neighbors, almost none of whom attended All Saints.

Summer evenings are good times in the city to meet people sitting on their front porches and front stoops. Playgrounds and ballparks are full of youngsters and their parents. Corner stores are meeting places for the neighborhood. Each walk ended with supper at a local restaurant where the group debriefed and talked about what they had experienced.

We didn't go with an agenda; we went to listen. We had someone along who spoke Spanish fluently, but found that Portugese was widespread as well. We listened to people's frustration with landlords, and found out what kids had summer reading lists and then checked in with them about how they were doing on them over the summer. We even found a few Episcopalians from Latin America who hadn't approached us because we were so overwhelmingly Anglo.

It was important that the walks included clergy, sure, but many more laypersons. Like your congregation, we didn't know our neighbors. We thought of them as different. We were surprised to find they were more like us than they were different. (I understand how this might be difficult for older members to do physically, but for our outreach it was important that it was not just clergy.)

The stark difference is that we aren't trying to give the church away. While we struggle with budgets in these trying times, the parish is vital. We are, however, trying to open the doors to people who live in our neighborhood but who have never been invited to join us. We are happy when they come for programs, even when they don't show up for Sunday services. In fact, we try not to impose any strings at all on them.

The germ of this effort was walking the neighborhood. It has led to a Fun Friday program for younger children from 6:00 to 8:00 p.m. A lot of those kids have "graduated" to a newer program dubbed Fab Friday for tweens and younger teens. We have sponsored neighborhood kids at our diocesan summer camp, and for many of them it was the first time they have left the city for an extended period of time. From all this we have welcomed many families into the church through association and, for many, baptism.

We Anglos are still the majority at All Saints, but we honor our diversity. The congregation has many Africans, who were Anglicans in their own countries. Ditto for immigrants from the Carribean. Lots of gay folks, too, some of whom are involved in this neighborhood effort. The Hispanic/Latino membership is growing slowly. The biggest challenge is finding the resources to begin Spanish-language services, or at least incorporate Spanish into the services we have.

This hasn't been an economic boom of new members. These are poor people who give what they can but certainly aren't in a position to solve our financial problems. As I said, no strings attached.

I recognize how different your situation sounds, but I thought that the core of the program might apply: Get to know your neighbors.

Our neighborhood has many storefront Pentecostal churches of several different language and ethnic varieties, so there's lots of competition.

I hope there's something in all this for you to consider.

[andrewlittle]

Andy,

...
I hope there's something in all this for you to consider.

Something? Ben you underestimate the similarities and how useful this might be. Thank you - I'll be back after I banter this around a bit.