Hate and the brain

[Zerbie]

Stumbled, quite accidentally, upon this book citation while surfing the internet for other reasons. . . .

I have only glanced through it, but I suspect this book will prove fascinating as an outline of the neuro-physiology of hate. I may very well be ordering this book.

It seems my idea that there is some important difference in brain function between individuals such as our forum regulars and those who promote things like Prop 8 out of an emotional basis of antipathy towards gay folks may in fact be quite real. We may all be functioning from different brain centers, creating entirely different interpretations of the world because our physiologies process information differently. I'm making a flying leap there, since I haven't read the book yet, but it's a suspicion I've had for a few years now.

Take a look, and if anyone here has read this book and can offer a review, that'd be great.

http://books.google.com/books?id=q_mCtra-a5IC&pg=PA6&lpg=PA6&dq=explosive+emotion&source=bl&ots=bRaCepMDkH&sig=L4xFtm9sWhv2yA218GpTc5HvMlY&hl=en&ei=16StSe2RLJWksAOAyo3JBA&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=10&ct=result#PPP1,M1

[Rick336]

Thanks Zerbie. Lately I've been fascinated in psychology and neuroscience and how the brain works. From what I've found so far, we humans have very little free will. Our past environment, our brain structure, and our memory all play a part in what causes all of us to think and behave the way that we do. The good news is, we can change a lot of it.

This book looks interesting. I might have to check into it.

Rick

[Zerbie]

Thanks Zerbie. Lately I've been fascinated in psychology and neuroscience and how the brain works. From what I've found so far, we humans have very little free will. Our past environment, our brain structure, and our memory all play a part in what causes all of us to think and behave the way that we do. The good news is, we can change a lot of it.

This book looks interesting. I might have to check into it.

Rick

One word: neuroplasticity

Yes, we do have free will, but it can be fooled with. The good news is also the bad news: we are highly programmable. That's bad news because we can be programmed rottenly, but it's also good news because we can be re-programmed. We can choose to re-program ourselves, and that is the ultimate in 'free will.'

[Rick336]

We can choose to re-program ourselves, and that is the ultimate in 'free will.'

I agree. But many people have been programmed so "rottenly" for so long that it is nearly impossible to change. Their free will is severely limited because their brains have been programmed one way for their entire lives.

Think about Fred Phelps. Do you think he will ever say to himself, "Maybe I need to re-examine my position on gay rights. Maybe my thinking is flawed about homosexuality and equality for gay people is actually a good idea."

I don't think so. I think even if we gave Fred Phelps thousands of reasons why equality for LGBT people is completely rational, he will go to his grave saying, "God hates fags!"

Rick

[Zerbie]

I agree.


But many people have been programmed so "rottenly" for so long that it is nearly impossible to change. Their free will is severely limited because their brains have been programmed one way for their entire lives.

Think about Fred Phelps.
Rick

Rick,

Oh yes, true. Believe me, I know more than I would like to know about rotten programming.

But very few people have been pushed into that kind of extreme. It is exceedingly rare.

The problem seems to be, rather, that many people are programmed so subtly and with so little of the extreme surface insanity such as Phelps demonstrates, that they are less likely to have occasion to even OBSERVE their conditioning. They may not even know it's there.
And if they do, they do not perceive it as obstructing their life in any way. They funnel it away as part of the overall meaning of the world, or a philosophy or ideology which they believe determines reality. Or even IF they do perceive it as an impediment in their own life, they perceive the effort involved in re-programming their conditioning to be too much work.

The problems are as follows:

1. to recognize one has been programmed (which probably includes recognizing how it occurred, and learning to understand why)

2. to discover that one's conditioned responses can be changed

3. to determine that one wants to invest in the work to change conditioning.

4. to learn how to go about producing such a change and then implement it in step-wise (but not linear) ways over a long period of time.

Probably, most people are content to live with their discontents.

For those of us who have noticed this, that we are living in little Hells in our own minds, we can choose to re-pattern our own thoughts and emotions, piece by piece. We can create new emotional patterns that will be healthier for us, and which are ultimately healthier for those we come into contact with.

We can choose to take ourselves down a new road.
I say this for our own benefit, not for Fred's. We can make new choices. Every day, we can make new choices that will re-route our thoughts and emotions to places where we would rather be.

[Rick336]

We can choose to take ourselves down a new road.


Yes. We can make choices.

I can choose to go to work tomorrow or I can choose to stay home and sleep all day. But my past experiences (that are nothing more than a collection of thousands of memories from the past 57 years) tell me that if I choose to stay home and sleep all day that the end result will not be to my best interests.

Fred Phelps can choose to keep picketing funerals as a protest to the acceptance of homosexuality in the US, or he can choose to stop doing that and accept homosexuality as a natural sexual orientation. But, his past experiences since his birth more than likely tell him that to stop protesting homosexuality will go against the will of God which would be a bad thing.

What many scientists now believe is that our choices and behavior are a result of everything we've learned since birth. I don't think that this means that Fred Phelps is not responsible for his actions just as I'm responsible for my actions. We all have to take responsibility for what we do. It also doesn't mean that we need to accept Fred Phelps' behavior.

However, I do think it may mean that we have little (if any) free will. If we choose to behave in a certain way it is a result of our past learned experiences, even if we choose to change our thinking. In other words, the mere act of changing our thinking is a result of past experiences.

We also have to take brain structure into consideration. Neuroscience is finding that not all brains are equal. They're discovering that some people who do "evil" things have different brains than normal people. Some of these people don't have the capacity to feel sympathy or compassion because the part of their brain that produces these feelings is much smaller than a normal brain.

I think that by his extreme behavior, there is a chance that Fred Phelps has a neurological disorder. However, my brain tells me that labeling him as a bigoted moron is a perfectly acceptable way in our society to express my anger and frustrations about his behavior. At least, that's what I've learned from my past experiences.

Rick

[Rick336]

We also have to take brain structure into consideration. Neuroscience is finding that not all brains are equal. They're discovering that some people who do "evil" things have different brains than normal people. Some of these people don't have the capacity to feel sympathy or compassion because the part of their brain that produces these feelings is much smaller than a normal brain.

Scientists have found that the Amygdaloid Nucleus (or Amygdala ) in the brains of serial killers are much smaller than a normal brain.

http://12angrymen.files.wordpress.com/2008/04/w320-brainadd.jpg

Rick

[Zerbie]

I gather that what science is finding is that neuroplasticity involves possible change in brain structures. There have been some who say that PTSD untreated over time leads to a permanent change (for the worse) in a certain brain area. I believe that area is the hippocampus (but don't go blindly trusting my memory on this point -- my knowledge of brain anatomy is extremely scant and vague.)

The amygdala mediates our emotional responses, yes? So the question then becomes, what shapes the amygdala? Does experience alter it? I think science is going to find that early learning experiences DO affect the function of the amygdala, if that isn't something already found. Perhaps they will discover that killers are, 98% of the time, MADE, not born.

I understand that neuroplasticity does not mean we can just wake up one day and say, "Hey, I'm filled with faulty beliefs, let me trade 'em in for new ones," and just go 'buy' a new wiring system. I have deep understanding of how difficult the process of change is. Everything is wired to resist change, and that's on a survival level. Before change can happen, you have to throw a log jam into the entire "I must believe X in order to survive" program. That's harder than anything. But it CAN be done, and it is SO worth it.

Forget about Fred. He may never change, and while it's possible, I won't bet on it. I am saying, focus on us. Focus on ourselves and making ourselves whole and free. If we can get out of crappy programming, the world opens wide to possibility.

[Zerbie]

BTW, Rick, where did you find that map of the brain? I would like to learn more.

[Rick336]

I gather that what science is finding is that neuroplasticity involves possible change in brain structures. There have been some who say that PTSD untreated over time leads to a permanent change (for the worse) in a certain brain area. I believe that area is the hippocampus (but don't go blindly trusting my memory on this point -- my knowledge of brain anatomy is extremely scant and vague.)

From what I understand, neuroplasticity involves the adding or removing of interconnecting brain cells as a result of learning, so yes, it does involve changes in brain structure. As far as the effects of PTSD, I don't know if that can or cannot be changed over time but I think the longer it is left untreated the longer it may take to change.

The amygdala mediates our emotional responses, yes?

Yes, especially fear and empathy. A person who has an amygdala that is much smaller than a normal brain does not have the ability to feel empathy or to feel what it may be like to be abused or taken advantage of. They simply don't care as much as a person with a normal brain.

So the question then becomes, what shapes the amygdala? Does experience alter it? I think science is going to find that early learning experiences DO affect the function of the amygdala, if that isn't something already found. Perhaps they will discover that killers are, 98% of the time, MADE, not born.

I think environment and experience probably does play a part, but I think science is finding that in some cases, at least with psychopaths, brain structure may play an even bigger part. I think a lot of factors are probably involved in why some people behave irrationally and self-destructively.

I understand that neuroplasticity does not mean we can just wake up one day and say, "Hey, I'm filled with faulty beliefs, let me trade 'em in for new ones," and just go 'buy' a new wiring system.

I think you're right. It takes time with most people. However, I think there are exceptions.


I have deep understanding of how difficult the process of change is. Everything is wired to resist change, and that's on a survival level. Before change can happen, you have to throw a log jam into the entire "I must believe X in order to survive" program. That's harder than anything. But it CAN be done, and it is SO worth it.

It can be done with many people. But I personally know some people who will NEVER consider change even though their lives are a disaster.

Forget about Fred. He may never change, and while it's possible, I won't bet on it. I am saying, focus on us. Focus on ourselves and making ourselves whole and free. If we can get out of crappy programming, the world opens wide to possibility.

I agree. Crappy programming is the reason why so many closeted LGBT people come to this forum from a Christian fundamentalist environment saying that they are desperately unhappy and are looking for support. Some even talk of suicide as a solution. That's why challenging bad programming is so important. Sometimes it can be a matter of life or death.


Rick

[Rick336]

BTW, Rick, where did you find that map of the brain? I would like to learn more.

Google "Amygdaloid Nucleus" in Google images. Dozens of brain graphics pop up.

Rick

[Daniel]

Read through the original line last night. Very interesting stuff, not only for the subject at hand, but also in consideration of my own situation- that is- having tinntus.

The same almond shaped structure in the brain that figure in this current research- the amygadala- also figures large in tinnitus. Research continues, as well as my interest in the matter.

Interestingly- and not to be dramatic- I can understand this research from a personal point of view. After my onset, I experienced suicidal ideation, not only once, but twice (am doing really well- so no need to worry- not something I even thing about now!). It took some heavy duty anti-anxiety medication to get me out of it, give me the space to process what was happening to me.

The amygdala has a lot to do with this! In tinnitus, the amygdala is understood to be the part of the brain which keeps tinnitus going as though it is a software program that cannot be turned off. A continuous loop as it were.

I really identify with this research. It explains in another way what I had read at other sites about my condition, though, of course, the circumstances are entirely different. Same brain structure- different problem.

Thanks Zerbie, for posting this!

[Rick336]

Read through the original line last night. Very interesting stuff, not only for the subject at hand, but also in consideration of my own situation- that is- having tinnitus.

I have tinnitus too. But I wasn't aware that it was coming from the amygadala. I always figured it was coming from the inner ear.

I have several friends my age that also have tinnitus (ringing in the ears). I think it's a fairly common condition that comes with age.

Rick

[Linda2008]

I find it very credible that people who regularly experience hatred (for whatever reason) or excessive anger and rage are dysfunctional and that their brain activity would function differently from a happier person's.

I know when I have experienced rage I usually experience extreme stress and discomfort just after (and probably during) the incident. I mean the incident will literally make me feel physically ill and exhausted and I have to recover from it. I cannot imagine feeling that way all the time.

[Daniel]

I have tinnitus too. But I wasn't aware that it was coming from the amygadala. I always figured it was coming from the inner ear.

I have several friends my age that also have tinnitus (ringing in the ears). I think it's a fairly common condition that comes with age.


I may have mislead you in my post. Didn't mean to say that the origin of tinnitus is in the aymgdala, but rather, it has a role to play in tinnitus. From what I have read, tinnitus doesn't have a single causation or origin. Current thinking is that, while tinnitus may stem from injury to the ear, it can also originate in the brain. For instance, there are many people who have no measurable hearing loss but still have tinnitus.

Here's one persespective.

http://www.hearingreview.com/issues/articles/2007-08_02.asp

Structural changes in the amygdala and the nucleus accumbens may also contribute to the emotional effects of tinnitus, as well as difficulties in sleep and selective attention. It is thought that auditory information ascends to the brain in two parallel pathways, and the "non-traditional pathway" bypasses the primary cortex and has strong/direct connections to the amygdala in the limbic system.

In other words, tinnitus may have a life of it's own, running on a neural pathway separate than the auditory one. As such, perception of tinnitus is both physiological as well as psychological. This is why methodologies such as TRT and Cognitive Behavior Therapy can be effective.

How are you doing with your T? Things going well?

[Rick336]

How are you doing with your T? Things going well?

I went to the doctor about my tinnitus a couple of years ago. He gave me a hearing test and said that I may have some hearing loss but for the most part my hearing is about normal.

He gave me some vitamins that he said might help reduce the ringing in my ears but I decided it was easier to just ignore the ringing than to remember to take the vitamins.

I've learned to live with it and now I hardly notice it. Except....when I think about it. Like now.

Rick