Being put out to pasture

[andrewlittle]

The soap opera that is Andy's life continues ...

Because I missed a couple of Sundays when I was reacting to new bipolar meds - although I arranged for alternate coverage for the church - I thought I should contact the presbytery bigwigs (before the church antagonists did). It was decided, by the powers that be, that I would benefit from two weeks of medical leave until I came to equilibrium on the meds.

The General Presbyter (the closest thing Presbyterians have to a bishop) and the Committee on Ministry (the closest thing to an inquisitor) met with my session to arrange the medical leave. They would represent my interests, I was told.

The next day, I received an e-mail from the GP telling me that it went well, although that is obviously a matter of opinion. While I thought they were "negotiating" a couple of weeks off, I was told that the session voted on the plan for next six months - three months medical leave, followed by three months severance. This would also be retroactive to April 1st, fully two weeks before the notification.

Subsequent to that, I received a copy of the motion that was approved. I do indeed get three months medical leave - whether or not I need or want it - but the severance isn't severance, at all. It is rather a supplement to disability income payments and is predicated on my filing for permanent, or at least semi-permanent, disability. If I don't file for it, the church will pay me peanuts during the second six months.

The rub is that, if the church decided to close its doors (which I know that it did), I was owed six months full severance by presbytery rules. I don't know whose best interests were negotiated, but it wasn't mine. In essence, the church gets a reprieve on the better part of three months salary and I get the "privilege" of filing for disability which should pretty much kill any possibility of getting a pastorate in the PC(USA), if not any denomination.

I feel so blessed by the ethical conduct and concern of everyone involved - just so warmed by the rush to fulfill obligations - that I could just sh-t.

Jenna and I now have the unusual circumstance that we have both been driven out of ministry by unhealhty church folks. Non-church spirituality is beginning to look better and better, as denominations reinforce the errant behavior of those who wrestle for power in local churches.

Now, as I contemplate the future lived on disability, or whatever may turn up from under a rock, I wonder what I will be able to do, if anything.

Pray for me, or just send good thoughts. Just, please, don't put me on a church prayer chain. I could stand not to have that kind of support at this point.

[keltic63]

Andy, I'm so sorry that this is happening to you. This truly sucks.

I came over here to research something for a blog entry that I'm writing at this very moment. One of the things I mention is the very unchristian things that happen to people, especially those in leadership positions, at the hands of "good christian folk". I'd say it's a coincidence, but I no longer believe in coincidence. Your spirit's cry as you wrote brought me to this forum. I offer you my love and compassion, and please know that I wish you every good thing.


Pray for me, or just send good thoughts. Just, please, don't put me on a church prayer chain. I could stand not to have that kind of support at this point.

:lol:

This reminds me of something that happened many many years ago in an AoG church that I attended with my parents. It was prayer request time, and our minister was very nearly deaf. If he couldn't hear the particular request, he kept a list of pat responses that he could say. One Sunday evening, a church member requested prayer for a relative who was experiencing near suffocation as his throat swelled shut; doctors had no idea what was causing it. The minister's reply was "Well, Praise God! this is just the beginning of miracles!" This has become a long-running family joke, in which we threaten each other with having Pastor L pray for someone, or when we hear of someone's poor health, we say "Oh, that must be one of Pastor L's miracles!"

I hear you: Please don't pray for me, I don't think I'm healthy enough to live through it.

[Pablo Rafael]

I am really sorry about the difficulties you (and Jenna) have faced.

I have found that churches can be some of the most hostile environments in which to work. (I think maybe Junior High clasrooms being #1) It always seems that money is the first concern with a lot of church governing organizations. I have heard so often in church meetings, "We are a business" which is used to justify selfishness and always preceds a motion to try to get money from someone.

I will keep you in prayer. And don't worry, the little Episcopal church I go to here in Creede, Colo. doesn't even have a prayer chain.

Tu Amigo, Pablo

[u-dog]

I, too, am really sorry to hear how you are being railroaded by the Presbytery of Albany. I am sorry... but not surprised. Unfortunately, this is S.O.P. for Presbyteries dealing with "complicated" pastors. Whether it is an inconvenient health situation, a case of misconduct, a conflict arising out of an unhealthy system, it doesn't matter. The answer is ALWAYS to simply make the problem "go away". Presbyteries don't solve problems or deal with problems, they simply sweep them out the door and forget about them. When you wrote the words "we will represent your interests" I just just laughed (a bitter laugh) The Presbytery NEVER represents the interests of the pastor. NEVER. The pastor is ALWAYS dispensable (should I say disposable?)

What, may I ask, happens if you apply for and do not receive permanent disability status? They are behaving as though its like ... automatic or something. Do they then owe you three months more of "severance"? or is it just "Oh Gosh... sorry"?

O well ... if its any consolation, the denomination is will be on disability itself anytime. I was kind of hoping it would wait til I retired to collapse, but ... I don't know. Its a goner in any case.

[Matt Algren]

Is there any possibility of challenging this? I'm woefully unknowledgable in Presbyterian rules, but if they decided to shutter the church at the same time as deciding that you have to go on medical leave followed by termination (the rationale of which I don't particularly understand) which saves them six months of severence, it seems like a blatantly obvious end run around the rules of your employment.

Regardless, you have my sympathy. Nothing's worse than church folks who go back on their word. A special darkness comes with that.

(Why did I think you were UMC?)

[antiochian]

How sickening. I'm so sorry and hope things will work out in the end. A great priest I knew was treated in a similar way. He was given the axe by his bishop and left with his family to live in poverty and poor health while frantically searching for jobs, most of which he was way overqualified for. Believe you me, I have little good to say about the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese and the elitist schmucks who run it. It seems like for so many, Christ and being christlike are afterthoughts. :( And religion becomes just one more arena in which to seek popularity and power, kind of like the NBA, Hollywood, and Wallstreet.

[marcdash]

I think you should just ask God for a bit of help, im sure there are other more enjoyable jobs or ventures you could do....This doesnt have to be a bad thing? Change is good, see it as an opportunity.
As for what you said about no longer being part of a church, i never goto church...would you really miss it? Most of them dont know their Bible from their backside and just turn up for the free tea on sunday mornings lol.
I say that the Lord has called you out of there and onto somthing else, and i also say that he will open up new doors if you are receptive to his voice...
"Do not worry", Jesus tells us. Easier said than done, but still, maybe the only way through this bad patch is to see things from a different angle.
The way i see it is this...there are millions of children starving to death right now as we speak that havent had so much as a peanut to eat all day...instead of counting your problems, maybe you should count your blessings and be happy. Lots of love x

[tdogg]

Yes there are problems all over the world. People worse off then us. But it does not negate or lesson the significance of what any of us might be going through at any given moment. There is no reason not to feel bad or be a bit worried or even pissed.

Andy, I feel for you. The church you have served (and by that I mean the people) so lovingly and faithful for so long is not treating you as it should. I don't really have any advice. :( But I feel your pain in your words and will send some positive thoughts your way. No prayer chains. But just my own sympathy, empathy and hopes and prayers for an upturning of events for you and Jenna.

Marcdash, yes, often when one door closes another opens. But we aren't bad people for feeling sad about the door that happens to be closing. there is always hope in the future (sometimes cautious hope) but often we need to get through the grief of the present to grasp the hope.

Love and comfort to you and Jenna, Andy. :love:

[marcdash]

All im saying is that sometimes things in life happen that were stuck with, good or bad.
I just feel more people should be thankful for what they do have and when times get tough they should (as Christians) be able to take the good and the bad and 'Pick up their mat and walk'.
It is easy to be thankful to God when everything is smooth and rosy, but when a trial or test comes along many sink.
Im not saying that is true in this case, but sympathy personally for me doesnt help.
Over here in the west were spending a fortune on 'diet pills' because were too lazy to lose weight by eating less and exercise, while much of the world starves to death...All im saying is that by seeing things as they really are and 'looking at things from a different angle' we can sometimes make our 'problems' dissapear in about 2 seconds.
It sounds harsh but whats the alternative? For me to say -
"Oh poor you...how will you ever manage now? How sad you may have to lower yourself to take another job. What an injustice the church has done to you...How will you ever cope on disability allowance?" Etc.
I know for a fact that God would boot me up the backside if I spoke like that.

[andrewlittle]

There is such a thing as a period to reflect on major life changes. I find it interesting that, while you cannot find anything sensitive to say, you felt compelled to say what you did. Even Jesus took a short time to say, "My God. My God. Why Have you forsaken me?"

[keltic63]

I know for a fact that God would boot me up the backside if I spoke like that.

I'm kinda hoping God boots you up the backside anyway for being so callous with one about whom you know nothing.

[Daniel]

Andy- my heart aches reading your post at the start of this thread. Oh my friend! This is hard to bear. What bitter circumstances. To be so treated by those who profess to follow the teachings of Christ.

I wonder- as others do- if there is anything that can be done? Slim chances perhaps. But the thought crosses my mind: what happens if you don't file for disability? Will you be blackballed? Are the powers that be forcing you into filing? Is filing your only option?

It makes me very angry that you are being treated in this way. Oh....rage rage rage. You deserve better!

Want you to know that you and Jenna have my and Jonathan's love and meditative thoughts: beaming light out from my heart to you. May you be encompassed by the All of the Everything.

[Matt Algren]

All im saying is that sometimes things in life happen that were stuck with, good or bad.
I just feel more people should be thankful for what they do have and when times get tough they should (as Christians) be able to take the good and the bad and 'Pick up their mat and walk'.
It is easy to be thankful to God when everything is smooth and rosy, but when a trial or test comes along many sink.
Im not saying that is true in this case, but sympathy personally for me doesnt help.
Over here in the west were spending a fortune on 'diet pills' because were too lazy to lose weight by eating less and exercise, while much of the world starves to death...All im saying is that by seeing things as they really are and 'looking at things from a different angle' we can sometimes make our 'problems' dissapear in about 2 seconds.
It sounds harsh but whats the alternative? For me to say -
"Oh poor you...how will you ever manage now? How sad you may have to lower yourself to take another job. What an injustice the church has done to you...How will you ever cope on disability allowance?" Etc.
I know for a fact that God would boot me up the backside if I spoke like that.
You're acting like a jerk. If there's one thing we as a group should know, it's that shutting off your emotions is unhealthy.

[marcdash]

Im a jerk, im unsympathetic...etc etc.
How Christian.
I offered some advice, that was all.
There are people over here who have never had the good fortune to be in a job in the first place, never mind collect an allowance when they leave it.
All i was saying is that compared to a lot of people he has it pretty good and he should count his blessings, then his problems (based on the comparision of many people) would pale into significance. Sympathy doesnt help people, and it isnt due here.
Jesus said "My God why have you forsaken me", after he was strung up naked after being torchered beyond belief on a cross...he had good reason!
If i was God in this case I would probably be more likely to be helping a starving persons prayer or someone being murdered than listen to someone complain because they dont have a job...That was all...
I dont mean to sound bad at all, i just wanted to offer my advice.
And Andy...Of course Im grieved that you have this problem to go through and of course i wish it wasnt so, but it is, and sympathy wont help you, youll just have to humble yourself enough to do another job.

[keltic63]

Im a jerk, im unsympathetic...etc etc.
How Christian.
I offered some advice, that was all.
There are people over here who have never had the good fortune to be in a job in the first place, never mind collect an allowance when they leave it.
All i was saying is that compared to a lot of people he has it pretty good and he should count his blessings, then his problems (based on the comparision of many people) would pale into significance. Sympathy doesnt help people, and it isnt due here.
Jesus said "My God why have you forsaken me", after he was strung up naked after being torchered beyond belief on a cross...he had good reason!
If i was God in this case I would probably be more likely to be helping a starving persons prayer or someone being murdered than listen to someone complain because they dont have a job...That was all...
I dont mean to sound bad at all, i just wanted to offer my advice.
And Andy...Of course Im grieved that you have this problem to go through and of course i wish it wasnt so, but it is, and sympathy wont help you, youll just have to humble yourself enough to do another job.

this particular phrase indicates that you know how bad you sound. Your advice just plain sucks.

you, marcdash, know little of the history of this man and his wife. consequently, your advice to "humble yourself enough to do another job" is like asking Mrs. Lincoln "other than that, how was the play?" These 2 have spent years and thousands of dollars on an education that qualifies them to be ministers, have spent years working on that vocation, and have been hurt deeply by the very ones who profess to be Christians, people like yourself, Marcdash, who offer simple, heartless platitudes which allow them to feel good about themselves while they turn the knife into the ribs of God's servants.

[Daniel]

I think not! Andy and Jenna are in Albany NY today, fighting for gay marriage rights. How do I know? Towleroad took their picture and posted it along with news coverage on their much-read blog.

New Yorkers Lobby for Marriage Equality in Albany #ejday

http://www.towleroad.com/2009/04/new-yorkers-lobby-for-marriage-equality-in-albany-ejday.html


Two thousand LGBT New Yorkers are in Albany today to lobby lawmakers on marriage equality for the Empire State Pride Agenda's 'Equality and Justice day'. Here's the view inside the convention center. A rally in West Capitol Park is set to begin in 15 minutes.

The Human Rights Campaign posted these photos to Twitter just a few moments ago. Said Paterson, according to HRC: "We are all coming together to make sure justice prevails for everyone!”

Ejday2 Attendees expected include Governor David Paterson; Assemblymembers Daniel O’Donnell & Richard Gottfried, & other elected officials; Kate Hathaway, PFLAG member & mother of actor Anne Hathaway; Alan Lubin, NYS United Teachers; Bishop Prince Singh, Episcopal Diocese of Rochester; Donna Lieberman, NYCLU; Arrie Moore, Spectrum Transgender Group of Western NY; Rabbi Marcelo Bronstein, Congregation B'nai Jeshurun; Alan Van Capelle, Empire State Pride Agenda.

Families and clergy are also present.
Thank you for being there! HUGE HUGS!

I just hope that the PC in Albany realizes what a stupid mistake they are making!

[Matt Algren]

...like asking Mrs. Lincoln "other than that, how was the play?"
This is off topic, but do you think the people in the audience got their money back? I know it happened in Act III, but still, they didn't get a whole show.

[marcdash]

this particular phrase indicates that you know how bad you sound. Your advice just plain sucks.

you, marcdash, know little of the history of this man and his wife. consequently, your advice to "humble yourself enough to do another job" is like asking Mrs. Lincoln "other than that, how was the play?" These 2 have spent years and thousands of dollars on an education that qualifies them to be ministers, have spent years working on that vocation, and have been hurt deeply by the very ones who profess to be Christians, people like yourself, Marcdash, who offer simple, heartless platitudes which allow them to feel good about themselves while they turn the knife into the ribs of God's servants.

This is just ridiculous.
I gave an opinion, you gave yours (and judged me without knowing a thing about me and were offensive with it), but can we let it drop?
I know a rich woman who was forced to work in mcdonalds to keep her family because their were no jobs left as a doctor...She didnt complain, she accepted things for the way they were and moved on.
Your right, I dont know Andrew and his wife, but I gave an opinion based on the life I have had working with others with massive problems...Andrews problem just doesnt seem like one to me, and if he realizes that it isnt much of a problem after all (hes not starving to death, he can get another job, as far as i know noone is dying from some disease close to him, he has enough money to get by etc etc) then he can move on.
I really dont see what the problem with my comment was at all, people have just made a big deal about it.

[marcdash]

There is such a thing as a period to reflect on major life changes. I find it interesting that, while you cannot find anything sensitive to say, you felt compelled to say what you did. Even Jesus took a short time to say, "My God. My God. Why Have you forsaken me?"

Im very sorry...Poor you, how will you ever cope...That is terrible news, really really sorry about all of what has happend to you...How will you ever get by? Im so sickend at the way you were treated, (even though i dont know you). I agree that you should just take a job thats 'beneath you' because where would the pride be in that? Nope, you deserve better, MUCH better. They dont know what a great christian leader they have lost at that church and again i am DISGUSTED at the way you were treated. May God take time from his busy everlasting life to help YOU FIRST and NOT all the starving and sick innocent children out there.

That better? Didnt think so.

[marcdash]

I'm kinda hoping God boots you up the backside anyway for being so callous with one about whom you know nothing.

Actually, Gods spirit directed me to say it.
You dont think God gets sick of people whinging? You should read the bible...

...Especially Job.

[marcdash]

God tests...
10: But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.

See it as a test...problem gone.
Sound biblical advice...and just for the record, Job lost 'everything'...But God gave it all back and more.

I may seem unsympathetic, but God seems that way as well at times...So Ill take it as a compliment, because like God i desire the greater good for Andrew whether anyone realizes it or not.

I dont really care I only answer to one.

I hope this is an end to this, were all entitled to our opinions.

I could say 'sorry for what happend' to Andrew a million times, but it wouldnt do any good...praying wouldnt do any good either because as far as i see it God has people to help with much bigger problems....

[Matt Algren]

God tests...
10: But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.

See it as a test...problem gone.
Sound biblical advice...and just for the record, Job lost 'everything'...But God gave it all back and more.

I may seem unsympathetic, but God seems that way as well at times...So Ill take it as a compliment, because like God i desire the greater good for Andrew whether anyone realizes it or not.

I dont really care I only answer to one.

I hope this is an end to this, were all entitled to our opinions.

I could say 'sorry for what happend' to Andrew a million times, but it wouldnt do any good...praying wouldnt do any good either because as far as i see it God has people to help with much bigger problems....
That last line is interesting. You think God's power is finite? That He has to mete out how much can go to this or that problem, just so He doesn't run out? That every night God tallies up how much mercy He's given, and how much love, and how much care?

You think He has a problem with people crying out for help because religious people have acted shamefully? Matthew 23 would seem to contradict you. (See? I can pull out verses too!)






P.S. Job didn't really happen. It's allegory. Unless, of course, you believe that God killed a bunch of people after he made a bet with Satan.

[marcdash]

That last line is interesting. You think God's power is finite? That He has to mete out how much can go to this or that problem, just so He doesn't run out? That every night God tallies up how much mercy He's given, and how much love, and how much care?

You think He has a problem with people crying out for help because religious people have acted shamefully? Matthew 23 would seem to contradict you. (See? I can pull out verses too!)






P.S. Job didn't really happen. It's allegory. Unless, of course, you believe that God killed a bunch of people after he made a bet with Satan.


Tell you what...Lets leave it to Andrew to pray to God and well see what happens?
Im not saying Gods mercy is finite, your putting words in my mouth. What im saying is its unlikely God will lift his hand to help someone who is perfectly capable of helping themselves.

Also if you think the book of Job is 'allegory', what is its purpose for being in the Bible?

[marcdash]

This is my last response to this post, because some people are just looking for an argument and I'm not giving one...Im too busy helping people with real problems.
No-one says yous have to agree, allow me to have my opinion and do grow up.

Much love x

[u-dog]

Actually, Gods spirit directed me to say it.
You dont think God gets sick of people whinging? You should read the bible...

...Especially Job.


Marc,

I have spent most of a lifetime studying and preaching the Bible. It is an amazing, rich, surprising thing. God's spirit blows through it in eye-popping ways.

However, I can't find anywhere in it a story where God directs someone to behave like a prick in response to someone else's misery.

And if you think that the theme of "Job" is "Oh quit your whinin' people explode everyday don't they?" then you need to read it again. Pay special attention to what God says to and about the three "friends" of Job whose attitudes and actions bear a STRIKING resemblance to your own. God lets those so-called "friends" have it with both barrels. He doesn't exactly call them "pricks" but he might have done.

In the book of Job God listens very patiently to Job's very ligitimate complaints. He listens for a long time before pointing out to Job that he isn't God and therefore doesn't have access to all the information he needs to understand his suffering. Job "gets it" and after their verbal boxing match God and Job are restored to their former intimacy. God never criticizes Job for complaining, only for imagining that he knows better than God.

So if Brother Andrew (who is a long-suffering and faithful servant of God and humanity) wants to shake his fist at heaven and turn the air blue because of the raw treatment he is receiving at the hands of God's people... I think he's in good company and we can let him rage until he is finished.

[marcdash]

Marc,

I have spent most of a lifetime studying and preaching the Bible. It is an amazing, rich, surprising thing. God's spirit blows through it in eye-popping ways.

However, I can't find anywhere in it a story where God directs someone to behave like a prick in response to someone else's misery.

And if you think that the theme of "Job" is "Oh quit your whinin' people explode everyday don't they?" then you need to read it again. Pay special attention to what God says to and about the three "friends" of Job whose attitudes and actions bear a STRIKING resemblance to your own. God lets those so-called "friends" have it with both barrels. He doesn't exactly call them "pricks" but he might have done.

In the book of Job God listens very patiently to Job's very ligitimate complaints. He listens for a long time before pointing out to Job that he isn't God and therefore doesn't have access to all the information he needs to understand his suffering. Job "gets it" and after their verbal boxing match God and Job are restored to their former intimacy. God never criticizes Job for complaining, only for imagining that he knows better than God.

So if Brother Andrew (who is a long-suffering and faithful servant of God and humanity) wants to shake his fist at heaven and turn the air blue because of the raw treatment he is receiving at the hands of God's people... I think he's in good company and we can let him rage until he is finished.

Job had reason to complain...you missed the point. He didnt just lose a cushy job in a church lol. Also i havent behaved like a prick...what a disgusting thing to say to someone.

[Matt Algren]

Tell you what...Lets leave it to Andrew to pray to God and well see what happens?I don't have time to look it up right now, but isn't there a verse somewhere telling people not to put God to the test?
Im not saying Gods mercy is finite, your putting words in my mouth. What im saying is its unlikely God will lift his hand to help someone who is perfectly capable of helping themselves.
I didn't put words in your mouth, I asked a series of questions. You seem to know a lot about who God does and doesn't care about, so I figured you'd be the one to ask.
Also if you think the book of Job is 'allegory', what is its purpose for being in the Bible?...

For the same reason the Garden of Eden is in there. It's a story with a message that can help people. (I always thought it was too bad that Job's first wife and family didn't get to come back to life. Collateral damage, I suppose, which would lead me to wonder if Satan really lost.)

[marcdash]

So far on these posts ive been called heartless, a prick, and so on...for giving advice, Biblical advice no less...Maybe you should question whether you really are in the faith?

Much love. x

[keltic63]

Job had reason to complain...you missed the point. He didnt just lose a cushy job in a church lol. Also i havent behaved like a prick...what a disgusting thing to say to someone.


again, you are saying things about which you know nothing.

This is a community of friends, many of whom know each other in real time, in person, not just by an avatar and a screen name. You could do well to follow your own advice re your protests about being picked on here (and yes, you've been whining about it) .

listen, I'm glad you have it all figured out, you know chapter and verse, and having only cursory information about any particular situation you are able to offer the final word of advice on any and all topics. Gay or straight, christian or other, those who've come into the forums with that attitude often become persona non grata, with virtually no one responding to their posts. I'd hate for that to happen to you.

[keltic63]

So far on these posts ive been called heartless, a prick, and so on...for giving advice, Biblical advice no less...Maybe you should question whether you really are in the faith?

Much love. x


quit your whining, go read Job! ;)

[keltic63]

This is my last response to this post, because some people are just looking for an argument and I'm not giving one...Im too busy helping people with real problems.
No-one says yous have to agree, allow me to have my opinion and do grow up.

Much love x


ahhh, if only.....

[Matt Algren]

Seriously, I'd be ticked off if I were the actor who got interrupted by the gunshot that killed Lincoln. That would be a terrible blow to the ego.

[marcdash]

I didn't put words in your mouth, I asked a series of questions. You seem to know a lot about who God does and doesn't care about, so I figured you'd be the one to ask.
...

For the same reason the Garden of Eden is in there. It's a story with a message that can help people. (I always thought it was too bad that Job's first wife and family didn't get to come back to life. Collateral damage, I suppose, which would lead me to wonder if Satan really lost.)

And the book of Job can help people...if they understand it.
Also who said God didnt bring Jobs first wife and family back from the dead?
Maybe you should read it again?

42:11 Then came there unto him all his brethren, and all his sisters, and all they that had been of his """"acquaintance before"""", and did eat bread with him in his house: and they bemoaned him, and comforted him over all the evil that the LORD had brought upon him: every man also gave him a piece of money, and every one an earring of gold.

The book of Job is about this according to http://www.online-literature.com/bible/Job/


Purpose of Writing: The Book of Job helps us to understand the following: Satan cannot bring financial and physical destruction upon us unless it is by God's permission. God has power over what Satan can and cannot do. It is beyond our human ability to understand the "why's" behind all the suffering in the world. The wicked will receive their just dues. We cannot always blame our suffering and sin on our lifestyles. Suffering may sometimes be allowed in our lives to purify, test, teach or strengthen the soul. God remains enough, deserves and requests our love and praise in all circumstances of life.


Funny...thats exactly what i said.

Much love x

[marcdash]

again, you are saying things about which you know nothing.

This is a community of friends, many of whom know each other in real time, in person, not just by an avatar and a screen name. You could do well to follow your own advice re your protests about being picked on here (and yes, you've been whining about it) .

listen, I'm glad you have it all figured out, you know chapter and verse, and having only cursory information about any particular situation you are able to offer the final word of advice on any and all topics. Gay or straight, christian or other, those who've come into the forums with that attitude often become persona non grata, with virtually no one responding to their posts. I'd hate for that to happen to you.

Two words...Grow up.

[marcdash]

Im off for the night...should give you two enough time to think of more insults.

x

[Matt Algren]

I have to giggle whenever I find someone who thinks they have it all figured out. Not because I'm mean, but because I remember when I was like that. How silly I was.

[u-dog]

The book of Job is about this according to http://www.online-literature.com/bible/Job/





Funny...thats exactly what i said.

Much love x

Gosh! Its on the internet someplace AND it agrees with you. It MUST be true.

[keltic63]

James 2:14-17 (English Standard Version)


Faith Without Works Is Dead

14What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and filled," without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that? 17So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.


So for me, the question is "have we heard our brother's lament? or have we just told him that if he were more spiritual, or more trusting in God, or more humble, or more of something else, that he wouldn't even be in this position?" Are we really this arrogant to suppose we know the mind of God? Know it so well that we can speak a few words of scripture and expect everyone else to accept it as God's final word as it pertains to this, our dear brother?

15 If a brother or sister has lost a job and is now worried about being poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, "Suck it up, humble yourself and find yourself another job even if it isn't what you've been called to do and trained for, Go in peace, be warmed and filled," without giving them the things needed for the body and the comfort of one's soul, what good is that?

[Zerbie]

Sometimes it is useful to employ the 'ignore' feature.

[antiochian]

Marcdash, enough! The Bible also tells us to bear each other's burdens. Have you read the Psalms? Many of them are prayers of lament and sorrow. God blesses us to express sadness, anger, and doubt, as well as thanksgiving. As Ecclesiastes states, there is a time and a place for everything, including the time to mourn (even witches can quote scripture ;) ). Your lack of compassion towards a man who has nothing but compassion and love for the lgbt community, not to mention your disrespectfulness, is not in line with the spirit of Christ.

[marcdash]

I have to giggle whenever I find someone who thinks they have it all figured out. Not because I'm mean, but because I remember when I was like that. How silly I was.

You mean I proved what you were saying about the book of Job was nonsense and now your angry so you decided to insult me again?
So be it.

x

[marcdash]

James 2:14-17 (English Standard Version)


Faith Without Works Is Dead

14What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and filled," without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that? 17So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.


So for me, the question is "have we heard our brother's lament? or have we just told him that if he were more spiritual, or more trusting in God, or more humble, or more of something else, that he wouldn't even be in this position?" Are we really this arrogant to suppose we know the mind of God? Know it so well that we can speak a few words of scripture and expect everyone else to accept it as God's final word as it pertains to this, our dear brother?

15 If a brother or sister has lost a job and is now worried about being poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, "Suck it up, humble yourself and find yourself another job even if it isn't what you've been called to do and trained for, Go in peace, be warmed and filled," without giving them the things needed for the body and the comfort of one's soul, what good is that?

Off topic.

[marcdash]

Sometimes it is useful to employ the 'ignore' feature.

Yes, I will locate that shortly and put it to use, thank you for that x

[Matt Algren]

You mean I proved what you were saying about the book of Job was nonsense and now your angry so you decided to insult me again?
So be it.

x
No. Because I find my younger self hilarious when he got all judgmental on people. (And I didn't catch you "proving" anything.)
Off topic.
No it's not.

And I thought you were done with this post.

[marcdash]

Marcdash, enough! The Bible also tells us to bear each other's burdens. Have you read the Psalms? Many of them are prayers of lament and sorrow. God blesses us to express sadness, anger, and doubt, as well as thanksgiving. As Ecclesiastes states, there is a time and a place for everything, including the time to mourn (even witches can quote scripture ;) ). Your lack of compassion towards a man who has nothing but compassion and love for the lgbt community, not to mention your disrespectfulness, is not in line with the spirit of Christ.

The bible also says that each should bear their own burden.
Im not saying Andrew cant express how he feels, but why should he expect a sympathetic answer from everyone?
What good will that do?
Im trying to make him realize his 'problem' isnt all that bad in comparison to many and doesnt have to be the end of his world.
I did show compassion, only you can't see it because your a product of the PC world obviously. There is such a thing as tough love, and it works better. Sympathy isn't going to help anyone.
I was never disrespectful but most of you were disrespectful and downright insulting to me- calling me names and behaving like children to be honest.
Then again, Jesus was hardly well liked either.

No wonder he speaks of a small flock...99% of confessing Christians have it wrong...The name calling, insults and lack of the knowledge of the scriptures prove that.

Also, at the end of the day, I had an opinion, if you dont like it then thats fine, but dont expect everyone in the world to agree with the way you do things...Since when was the 'world' right about anything.

Much love x

[keltic63]

This is done folks.