If Mary Had Aborted Our Savior...

[Dakota]

:) God the Father would have destroyed mankind on the spot two thousand years ago, and none of us would be here today. After all, if we didn't have Christ Jesus as our Lord and Savior, we wouldn't have our salvation, and life would be meaningless and without hope. So, even though I have always believed that women have the right to control their own bodies and make choices that they feel are best for them, and I would never tell a woman that she couldn't have an abortion if she wanted one, I still oppose abortion and believe that it is a murderous act that strips an unborn child of his/her personhood status, and I always will, so I hope you all understand and will forgive me for my strong viewpoint. I support adoption, because I believe that, because over 55 million unborn children have been aborted since Roe v Wade of 1973, there are not enough babies for childless couples to adopt, and I would not want to deprive one of these couples of a precious gift of life if I were facing an unplanned pregnancy and was unable to raise my child on my own. After all, if abortions continued in this country alone, we may face fewer supporters of our cause, and be deprived of more lasting friendships on this Forum. Think about it.

[tdogg]

Hi Dakota!

This is a loaded topic you brought up. I get your point. I'm am personally in favor of a woman's right to choose. For too many centuries, womens' bodies were controlled by their 'men'. Decision made or not made by men. Women were basically treated as property with no right to decide anything for themselves. This is why I believe a woman has the right to choose what is best for her own body.

Abortion is a sad and terrible thing. Reversing Roe vs. Wade is not the answer, but a good sexual health education for children as young as junior high (if not before) is vital, including safe sex and not just abstination. The high percentage of teen pregnancies is proof that abstination only education is not effective. Another issue is readily available contraception. Planned parenthood is a great organization, but sadly in these economic times, clinics are closing and not everyone has access (transportation, ability, knowledge) to access if it is available.

I am an advocate for adoption. I think it's wonderful. When all the pro-choice folks have adopted all the orphans then I would be willing to re-discuss abortion. Otherwise, for me, I must remain pro-choice. I do respect other choices, but do not respect any efforts of anyone who attemp to strip me (or any other woman) of my/their right to control their own body.

[tdogg]

I wanted to add a response to the part of your post that addresses Jesus, or a lack of Jesus had Mary aborted him. If God is as powerful as many believe, then God would never have allowed any situation happen that would have prevented Jesus from coming to earth and saving his people. No?

[BruceChris]

But consider how much progress could be made if we could start out by defining the source of the problem as unwanted pregnancies. Without them, there would not be ANY abortions, except those deemed medically necessary.

I'm looking forward to a world where sex and sexuality, EVERYONE'S sexuality, would be seen as something wonderful, a gift from God, to be celebrated joyously, and discussed openly.

*Boy, are we on the wrong side of THAT paradigm right now.*

I'm looking forward to a world where a couple, or a woman would no more consider getting pregnant without making a carefully thought through decision, than say, a person would consider stepping out of an aircraft without a parachute.

As I see it, right now both sides are putting ALL of their energy into fighting over abortion, with almost nothing left over to attempt to deal with the underlying problem.

We have seen any number of, often totalitarian, regimes around the world that have instituted a wide number of repressive measures to eliminate the Supply of abortions, with much human suffering resulting.

Please, explain to me what steps that you believe you would propose to reduce or eliminate the Demand for abortions?

I do not know ANYONE in social services, who could conceive of reaching a world without unwanted pregnancies, if abortion availability were eliminated beforehand.

Note1: I often wonder why this topic comes up as often as it does in the LGBT community. It is extremely rare that unwanted pregnancies occur in our community, for obvious reasons.

Note2: I often do volunteer work with Pro Choice Resources. While it is still true that their Back-Against-The-Wall issue is the preservation of Choice, they are very active in the community, helping to provide sex education and birth control.

No, I Have NEVER gotten anyone pregnant, Bruce Chris

[BruceChris]

there are not enough babies for childless couples to adopt, and I would not want to deprive one of these couples of a precious gift of life

There are something like 120.000 children in this country available for adoption, with an additional 600.000 children being cared for in the Children and Family Services systems in this country.

Peace and Love, Bruce Chris

[Dakota]

:) So I hope I'm not getting all "fundie" on you. I do, however, support the use of contraceptives and in teaching sex education to our children so that they are not as likely to become teenage parents. I think these programs are a good idea. Some public schools even offer up a Baby Think It Over baby doll that teenage boys and girls take home and care for for a week to try and divert them from having babies until they are ready. I agree also that abstinence-only sex education doesn't work, either, neither do Purity Pledges and Rings. These are unrealistic and are designed to cause our kids to fail at waiting until marriage before having sex, especially since masturbation is often discouraged. You all have some very good points, though, and I am glad that you shared them with me. Planned Parenthood, however, and other abortion clinics, give me the willies, though, because I've seen enough abortion images on the Internet to realize how tragic and awful abortion is. Thanks again, but my principles are my principles, just like your principles are your principles, and I tend to agree with both sides of every issue, anyway, because that's also a part of what makes democracy in America work. Are we still friends? :)

[labguy22]

That is awesome Dakota that you will never have an abortion. Even better that you have the right to chose yes, or no. I am a man and will never have to make a decision like this, but I would never wish the right to chose should ever be taken away.
So many believe that abortion is simply some form of birth control; maybe that helps people sleep easier who oppose it and for a small number perhaps it is true. For the women I know who have had an abortion, it was the single most difficult decision they have ever made. They live with that for the rest of their lives, but it was theirs to make. Having people always ready to remind them and judge them is a very hateful thing to do.

Believing that God would have destroyed mankind is just kinda silly.

[tdogg]

Planned parenthood is not an abortion clinic. They offer contraceptives and related counseling, pregnancy counseling, referrals to MDs, abortion clinics, adoptions agencies. So many people believe PP is all about abortions and while they will refer women to clinics if that is their decision, the main focus is birth control, assistance with pregnancies and MD referrals.

Dakota, any ideas on how you would address the issue BruceChris brought up? I believe in sex education for upper elementary school and/or junior high age students, including safe sex (along with abstinence advocation). I think that's a good start. I also think we need to look at how we can help people get through their hangups over sexuality (not limited to being gay but sexuality in general). That is, I believe, a huge problem in our country that leads to all sorts of problems (including parents not address sexuality with their children and high rates of teenage pregnancies).

Actually, like BruceChris says, there are thousands and thousands of orphan children hoping and waiting to be adopted. Most will never be. I stand by my statement, that when all the pro-life advocates adopt all the orphans, then we can discuss abortion. Sadly, that will never happen. However, many gay and lesbian couples are adopting children, where it's legal in their state, and giving home to children that others would never consider.

[BruceChris]

of issues.

You are only talking about what happens After a woman gets pregnant, and I am trying to address only what should happen Before a woman becomes pregnant.

If birth control could somehow become 100% effective, I would only be making arguments about what happens before a woman becomes pregnant.

I am trying to lay out a method for reducing the total number of abortions, over the long run.

You seem to be addressing only ONE abortion, or at least one at a time, involving unwanted pregnancies, as they occur, and continue to.

>>Partially here, I am responding to your PM more than your recent posting<<

I do wish we could get to the position that the Northern Europeans are at, with much fewer unwanted pregnancies, and much, much fewer abortions.

Yes, I agree, we should stay friends.


(Three cheers for Jocelyn Elders)

Peace and Love, Bruce Chris

[BruceChris]

I wholeheartedly agree with what you say, and you seem to have a much nicer way of saying it.

Peace and Love, Bruce Chris

[sauu4equality]

The following was taken from: http://ffrf.org/nontracts/abortion.php

["If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.

"And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life, Eye for eye, tooth for tooth . . ."--Ex. 21:22-25

The bible orders the death penalty for murder of a human being, but not for the expulsion of a fetus.]

Hmmm....so not even God thinks abortion is murder....Just food for thought.

[Dakota]

How would mankind continue on without a Savior if Mary had chosen to abort Him, and if Planned Parenthood isn't an abortion clinic, then why are women entering these facilities to have abortions? Also, if Planned Parenthood isn't an abortion clinic, then why does the organization believe that the unborn child has no personhood status until after the baby is born? And why are these women lied to about the so-called "safety" of abortion, when lots of things can go wrong during an abortion procedure or method? Some women have died during their abortions, and yet very few women these days die from childbirth. Perhaps you all should go to www.plannedparenthood.com, read what they have to say, really study it, by the way, and then get back to me later. I'm going to that website myself right now.

[Dakota]

And you will discover that Planned Parenthood actually DOES perform abortions at their clinics. I also find it interesting that, even in a wanted pregnancy, the unborn child is never called a baby. The child is only called an embryo or a fetus, despite the child's obvious human features. Hmmm! And here is one more interesting fact I'd like to share with you all: Some Pro-Choice advocates are animal lovers who would probably be horrified and angry if they witnessed an abortion being performed on a pregnant dog or cat (or any other pregnant animal), and tell us that it's wrong to kill and eat the meat of an animal (making us ribs and burger lovers feel guilty for our love of meat), and yet it's perfectly okay to kill an unborn child just because the baby wasn't wanted? Where is the humanity in that?

[Dakota]

Slaves were stripped of their personhood status so they can be sold as slaves and treated like property. Abused and neglected animals are treated like property, and so are abused women and children. Unborn children are stripped of their personhood status so they can be murdered in cold blood, and yet if a woman murdered her baby after the baby was born, she would end up in prison. Also, remember the Jewish holocaust? You guessed it, Hitler thought Jewish people and those born with mental or physical abnormalities were considered not human as well. Plus, did you all know that Margret Sanger, the founder of Planned Parenthood, was a racist who wanted to rid the world of African-American and other so-called "inferior" people, and that more African-American women have abortions than any other woman of racial and ethnic background? It's a fact. I found out about it while I was browsing the Internet on abortion. If you don't believe me, then go browse and see for yourself. So, what do slaves, abused animals, women, and children, Jewish people, mentally and physically handicapped, and unborn children all have in common? They were/are all God's living, breathing creations that shouldn't be destroyed just because they are deemed inferior by the rest of us. A baby shouldn't be killed just because the baby was an unplanned pregnancy. So, why is it wrong to kill an animal and not a baby?

[BruceChris]

for effectively and systematically reducing unwanted pregnancies through appropriate education and incentives, or other mechanisims?

What would your goals be, in the next 5, or 10 years?

For the sake of argument, I will say that this question does not reference any woman in any way, once she gets pregnant.

Monomaniacally yours, Bruce Chris

[BruceChris]

Birth control is mentioned 5 times, pregnancy once, and abortion once

BC

[Dakota]

:) Okay, so I'm a pooh-headed fundie when it comes to the abortion issue, and I didn't mean to get so angry at you guys, either. I was only trying to make a point about an issue that I feel very strongly about, and I can see how strongly you all feel about it, too. If I've disrespected you all in any way, I am very sorry, and I hope you can forgive me. This is a very hot-button issue indeed! Anyway, I've decided to boil it all down to this, then leave this topic alone for awhile: I strongly oppose all abortion procedures and methods, I would never have an abortion if I were facing an unplanned pregnancy, but I also strongly support a woman's right to decide what she wants to do with her body because we don't know what she may be going through personally, therefore no one, not us, and certainly not those fundamentalist Christians, has the right to control the woman's body and prevent her from having an abortion. However, I believe that Planned Parenthood is lying about women not regretting their abortions. I have a close friend who regretted having hers for years before God forgave her, redeemed her, and turned her life around. Whether or not she still thinks about the child she lost is anyone's guess. She doesn't like talking about it, so I don't force the subject on her. Stevie Nicks, my favorite singer from Fleetwood Mac, has had four abortions and two miscarriages in her lifetime, and she still regrets every single one (that was why she wrote her song "Sara"). I think if "Nan" and Stevie had their lives to live over and got pregnant with all those precious little babies they've lost, they would have either tried parenting or adoption and never would have had their abortions. This obviously proves that, if a woman can experience the heartbreak of losing a wanted child, then of course they're going to mourn the loss of an aborted child, because they have to live with their decision for the rest of their lives, and some, like Stevie, never get over the pain. However, I also very strongly agree that abstinence-only sex education, Purity Pledges and Rings, and other purity programs do not work, but I do support the use of contraceptives, sex education, and all other programs that are designed to reduce the number of unplanned pregnancies that are rampant in this country without resorting to controlling a woman's body or condemning a woman to Hell for having sex and enjoying herself sexually without being married. I may not agree with everything that other people want to do with their bodies or their lives, but this fundie has already made her promise that she will not stick her nose anywhere it doesn't belong. Peace? :)

[tymejumper]

How would mankind continue on without a Savior if Mary had chosen to abort Him, and if Planned Parenthood isn't an abortion clinic, then why are women entering these facilities to have abortions? Also, if Planned Parenthood isn't an abortion clinic, then why does the organization believe that the unborn child has no personhood status until after the baby is born? And why are these women lied to about the so-called "safety" of abortion, when lots of things can go wrong during an abortion procedure or method? Some women have died during their abortions, and yet very few women these days die from childbirth. Perhaps you all should go to www.plannedparenthood.com, read what they have to say, really study it, by the way, and then get back to me later. I'm going to that website myself right now.



Wow, let me tell you MY story and then you can go on about PP being an 'abortion' clinic.

I suspected I was pregnant, but I didnt have money because I was in college at the time. This was my 3rd child and I knew that I was pregnant. I saw the adds for free pregnancy testing and help with insurance from the local "right to life' clinic. I went there and they told me after my test that I was wrong and I had better come back in a few weeks if my period did not start. I told them I knew it, that I was pregnant and I needed theor help, they turned me down. I guess I should have claimed God sent me an angel and told me I was pregnant, maybe they would have helped hey????? Well, I then went to PP, a friend of mine worked there and she said, here let me test you for free and if your body says its true, then it is. She tested me and I came up with the same tiny little pink spot as I had at the 'right to life' clinic. She said, hey if you want to keep this baby, you need to get to the OB right away, because you should have more pregnancy hormone than that and something may be wrong. She helped me get insurance and I went to the doctor. Ya know what? I was needing Progensterone shots to stay pregnant, if I had listened to right to life, they would have caused my beautiful daughters abortion. My progesterone would have dropped further and it would have caused her death.

As far as I'm concerned, right to life is full of bull. They publish statistics and so called facts that are untrue. They can't even back them up! Sadly, their followers don't seem to want to see if those so called statistics are actually true, they just follow along, not questioning anything. Right to life is just a well funded attempt to control women. Why else would they have a MAN as presidient????

Also, please do your research. Talk to women who have used the coat hanger to abort a child as one of my patients had to do in the 60's. Get the facts about the true death rate of women during childbirth...it's 1% or 1 in 100. Abortion deaths are less than 1 in 1,000.

It is very sad that the next generation of women are so ready to give up their freedoms they fought for, and have no clue about how it used to be for us women.

[tymejumper]

:) I believe that Planned Parenthood is lying about women not regretting their abortions. I have a close friend who regretted having hers for years before God forgave her, redeemed her, and turned her life around.

I also have friends who have had abortions. They never regreted them, they were in fact relieved. I think the support a woman has is definately a factor on how she reacts. Making her feel like she needs to be forgiven by God is what shames her. You don't need to be forgiven by God, he or she will understand. Support is what she needs. My friends never once regreted doing it at all. Its the anti-choicers that are the ones lying to women, based on my life experiences. They tell them that they should be ashamed.

The way to end abortions is by both sides working together, not at logerheads. We need to pull together and fund education, sex ed and contraception. We need to become more socialistic and provide services for pregnant women so they dont have to worry about losting their jobs or homes or insurance or wonder about how they will get insurance now that they are pregnant. Wonder how they will support the children they have.

We need to work together. Put all your passion and anger into finding a solution. No one is mad at you, we are just as strong about our position as you are.

Much Metta

[BruceChris]

I regret that there are abortions, for any reason except to save the life of the mother. I do not know anyone who calls themselves "Pro-choice" who believes that abortions are anything but regrettable. I regret that we live in a society that is not mature enough to face these concerns honestly, and prevent most of them before they happen.

To say that sex is embarrassing, or that people are somehow afraid to talk about it is not the same thing as believing that "sex is dirty".

When I was younger, it was quite common for young women who lived at home, to go away for a few months, to *live with an aunt*. What they were doing, of course, was going away to live in a home for unwed mothers, until they gave birth.

In the Soviet Union until sometime in the 1950's there was no birth control. Abortion was birth control.

In some Eastern European countries, where there was no birth control available, there was a serious youth crime problem. Many blamed this on there being too many large families, with too many children, where children could not be be brought up with the care that each one needed.

I can see that Tymejumper has posted while I am composing. She has covered some points that I was going to, so I guess I'll sign off here.

EDIT inserted here:
And I do tend to have much the same impression of "Pro Lifers" that Tymejumper has. I see ~Many of~ them as judgmental, controlling, mean spirited, and dishonest. At least, that's My impression.

There ARE support groups for women who have had abortions. I know of some that are accessable through "Pro-Choice" groups, I don't know if there are any available through "Pro Life" groups.

God's Love to Both of You, Bruce Chris

[tymejumper]

Bruce,

Sorry to post your thoughts! We often seem to do that don't we?:lol::lol::lol:

[NathanATX]

This conversation is going very well. Thank you all for holding the space of love and community even inside of a potentially emotional discussion.

I want to put a few things in that you are all free to choose to try or not:


Try on that the other person is right.
Listen for and speak to the commitment that the other person is BEHIND the position & the words people are saying.
Try on "there's nothing wrong here."
Honor the other person's heart, intelligence and humanity.

Thanks for considering this!
:love: Nathan

[BruceChris]

Although it did take far too much time to get there. Some strong language (well, strong for this forum, anyway) was used.

However, it is my impression that admission of some of the other person's truths, reassurances of good faith, and requests that the dialogue be held in mutual respect were made on an ongoing basis.

It does little good, to argue against one person's emotional feelings with another persons preceptions of the facts. For too long, I gave the impression that I was ignoring Joann/Dakota's feelings, because I felt that she was not responding to my attempts at factual arguments. I should have been more thoughtful.

For that I apologise.

It is likely that a lot of this being brought in public could have been avoided if some thoughtfully written PM's had been exchanged early on.

In a perfect world, there would be no stigma to ANY pregnancy, and a village, or The Village, or the neighborhood, would raise the child, and would raise ALL of the children.

To All, in Christ's Love, Bruce Chris

[Dakota]

:o Wow! I guess I never saw it that way. Thanks, Tymejumper, for sharing your story, and I am really very sorry I was so blind. Maybe I should rethink the abortion issue a little further, huh? Instead, I only thought I was seeing the big picture, but I really wasn't. I think I'm beginning to understand, though. Thanks, and again, I'm sorry I attacked everyone. God bless! :)

[tymejumper]

:o Wow! I guess I never saw it that way. Thanks, Tymejumper, for sharing your story, and I am really very sorry I was so blind. Maybe I should rethink the abortion issue a little further, huh? Instead, I only thought I was seeing the big picture, but I really wasn't. I think I'm beginning to understand, though. Thanks, and again, I'm sorry I attacked everyone. God bless! :)


Thankyou for listening to my side. Sometimes it is hard to listen to others when you have very strong feelings about a subject. I think we all have been guilty of that from time to time.

The forum is here for all of us, and we all need to find support and vent from time to time. I am guilty of that myself and Zerbie and others were there to help me work through things. It is good to try to find out about things and often, through disscussions here I have found new ways of thinking. I think pro-choice and pro-life are not all that far appart. We all want the same things, reduction in need for abortions, but I guess it's just the semantics getting in the way!:):D

[Dakota]

:) I guess I love babies so much, I tend to get very angry and let my emotions get in the way when the issue of abortion comes up. I think to myself, "Why would anyone want to kill an innocent unborn child?" Especially when I view abortion images on the Internet, images of dead aborted babies. They are obviously human, and they were obviously alive before they were aborted, and they obviously suffered a great deal of pain while being aborted. That much is pretty easy to see. But no one wakes up in the morning and says, "I think I'll kill my unborn child just for the fun of it." I mean, do any of us actually know anyone that callous? Probably not. At least, I hope not. We all love babies, and we all hope that a pregnancy makes it to the end without an abortion being necessary. In other words, we all want every child to be a wanted child, not a child who ends up aborted, abused, or neglected because its mother didn't want it. However, what I didn't see was my own blindness. I just wasn't looking at the big picture. I mean, do these very same conservative Christians who oppose and want to outlaw abortion show any compassion and care for these infants and their mothers after the infants are born? No, they do not. In fact, and correct me if I'm wrong here, they oppose any and all social service programs that help the poor, the needy, and the homeless, putting these babies at risk of becoming poor, needy, and homeless. If an infant dies because its parents were too poor to properly care for it and give it proper medical attention, the thinking goes, and this is based on what my own way of thinking was, too, by the way, "They never should have had that kid in the first place!" And yet these same conservative Christians oppose the use of contraceptives, which, if made affordable, would have prevented the child from being born into poverty and despair. If a teenage girl or young woman becomes an unwed mother, she is shunned by her church, especially if she is single and raising her child on her own. Why is she shunned? Not because of the baby, but because this woman had unprotected sex without being married. The woman is shunned for not remaining pure. But what about the baby's father? Is he ever held responsible for his role in making this baby, since it does take two to make a baby? To my knowledge, I've never seen that happen. Conservative Christians also oppose sex-ed in our public schools, because they tend to shun any kind of education that would keep us well-informed and in check with reality, believing instead that abstinence-only sex education is the only realistic way to prevent unplanned pregnancies and sexually transmitted diseases. Studies have shown, however, that abstinence-only sex education doesn't work, and since kids will be kids and will not always think before they act (even the best-behaved Christian kids do stupid things every now and then), the best sex education you can give them is the kind that keeps them smart and well-informed, not the kind that keeps them ignorant, ill-informed, and unrealistically expects them to save themselves for marriage. The list goes on and on, but it proves once again that if you're going to preach on a hot-button issue like abortion, then claim to be Pro-Life on the issue, don't preach it unless you intend on supporting the child's growth and development through the years after the child is born. This means feeding and caring for the poor, the needy, and the homeless, and providing help and support, not judgment and condemnation, for unwed mothers and their babies. This means making contraceptives available and affordable for all so that an abortion becomes unnecessary, and a child isn't born into abuse, neglect, poverty, and despair. This means sex education, not abstinence-only sex education, for all children, not just those who are or may be at risk of becoming unwed teen parents. This means pregnancy-prevention programs for at-risk teens. The list goes on. I honestly don't see any conservative Christians getting involved, though, and I call that a shame and a disgrace. Instead, they cry, "Abortion is murder," do their Walk For Life campaigns and other protests, then go home, eat supper with their families, pat themselves on the back for doing their good deed of the day, go to church to sing their praises to the Lord, and ignore the issue hoping that it will go away on its own. What they are not doing is the one thing Jesus commands us to do, and that is: Love your neighbor as yourself. I think what he really means is, "If you want to see an end to abortion, then get out there and get your hands dirty. Get involved!" In other words, don't judge, condemn, or control a woman's body. Start or get involved in programs that are all about pregnancy prevention. Don't just convert people into Christians and pat yourself on the back for it. Get out there and help the poor, the needy, and the homeless. Get out there and offer your ongoing support for an unwed mother struggling to raise her baby. And most importantly of all, stop imposing yourself on others, judging those whose circumstances you do not understand, and condemning those who disagree with you. A message for all conservative Christians, but sadly, one that will not be heeded anytime soon. :)

[antiochian]

I used to be strongly anti-choice. Something sticks out in my memory. A few years ago I watched a broadcast of the demonstration in Washington DC on the Roe V Wade anniversary on a religious TV channel. Numerous religious leaders got up and spoke, including an Orthodox rabbi who then went into an anti-gay tirade. It dawned on me that many if not most of my "pro-life 'brethren'" were also against my equal rights as a human being. How pro-life is that?

This is a hard issue, to be sure. I'll probably never get a woman pregnant, and I'll never be pregnant, so I can't imagine what a hard choice it is. Life is filled with greater and lesser evils. Catholics say birth control is evil (well, the Vatican, anyway). Is it more evil for a couple living in poverty to have fourteen kids, who may be neglected, abused, and starved to death, or to not follow Church protocol, risk "mortal sin" and prevent those lives? Is it more evil for a mom to allow a severely ill fetus to be born and subject it to further suffering? I don't have the answers. Just food for thought.

[Dakota]

:) Did I spell your member name right? Anyway, I read your post, and I agreed with it 100%. That was another side of the abortion issue that I missed, plus I've failed to mention Octomom, the woman with the octuplets and the six other children, while I was ranting and raving about my Anti-Choice views. If Octomom isn't a wake-up call to the Anti-Choice groups, then I don't know what is! I mean, what was she thinking, and how in the world is she going to take care of 14 kids on her own? Even if she were married and had her parent's help, she still won't be able to provide for her children's emotional and developmental needs. There are too many little mouths to feed, plus things are going to look quite interesting when these kids grow up into teenagers! Will some of these kids grow up totally screwed up because of their unusual upbringing and the fact that Octomom has become one of the most despised women on the planet and probably doesn't have any more friends? Only time will tell. It isn't for us to judge. I do pray for this woman, though, and I hope she is doing okay. And if she had her life to live over, I am hoping that, if she still wanted a baby, she would think before she acts and not end up with so many at a time. Anyway, Antiochian, thanks for your post. I'm beginning to see a side of the abortion issue that I never saw before, and it's finally opening my eyes and my heart and turning me into a more compassionate Christian. I just have one little question, though: Why are Death Row inmates put to death more humanely than unborn children having abortions performed on them? Even animals are euthanized in a way that doesn't cause them any pain and suffering. And yet, unborn children being aborted are poisoned, torn apart, crushed, burned, stabbed (partial-birth abortion), and sucked violently out of their wombs while still alive and suffering obvious pain. If a mother did that to her baby after it was born, she'd end up in prison and be treated like a hardened criminal. It just doesn't make any sense to me, that's all, especially since unborn children committed no crime except that they existed at the wrong time, while most Death Row inmates are obviously not innocent of their crimes but don't have methods used on them in abortions that would cause them extreme pain and suffering. Plus, Death Row inmates usually get a fair trial before they are convicted and sentenced to death, and receive the support of their friends and family (if Christian, their last rights from a priest or minister), before they are put to death. Unborn children do not. But then again, a conservative Christian can't or at least shouldn't call themselves Pro-Life if they oppose abortion while continuing to support gun ownership and the death penalty, right? :confused:

[BruceChris]

JoAnn, do you have any specific methodologies,
for effectively and systematically reducing unwanted pregnancies through appropriate education and incentives, or other mechanisms?


I guess I love babies so much, I tend to get very angry and let my emotions get in the way when the issue of abortion comes up. I think to myself, "Why would anyone want to kill an innocent unborn child?" Especially when I view abortion images on the Internet, images of dead aborted babies. They are obviously human, and they were obviously alive before they were aborted, and they obviously suffered a great deal of pain while being aborted. That much is pretty easy to see. But no one wakes up in the morning and says, "I think I'll kill my unborn child just for the fun of it." I mean, do any of us actually know anyone that callous? Probably not. At least, I hope not. We all love babies, and we all hope that a pregnancy makes it to the end without an abortion being necessary. In other words, we all want every child to be a wanted child, not a child who ends up aborted, abused, or neglected because its mother didn't want it. However, what I didn't see was my own blindness. I just wasn't looking at the big picture. I mean, do these very same conservative Christians who oppose and want to outlaw abortion show any compassion and care for these infants and their mothers after the infants are born? No, they do not. In fact, and correct me if I'm wrong here, they oppose any and all social service programs that help the poor, the needy, and the homeless, putting these babies at risk of becoming poor, needy, and homeless. If an infant dies because its parents were too poor to properly care for it and give it proper medical attention, the thinking goes, and this is based on what my own way of thinking was, too, by the way, "They never should have had that kid in the first place!" And yet these same conservative Christians oppose the use of contraceptives, which, if made affordable, would have prevented the child from being born into poverty and despair. If a teenage girl or young woman becomes an unwed mother, she is shunned by her church, especially if she is single and raising her child on her own. Why is she shunned? Not because of the baby, but because this woman had unprotected sex without being married. The woman is shunned for not remaining pure. But what about the baby's father? Is he ever held responsible for his role in making this baby, since it does take two to make a baby? To my knowledge, I've never seen that happen. Conservative Christians also oppose sex-ed in our public schools, because they tend to shun any kind of education that would keep us well-informed and in check with reality, believing instead that abstinence-only sex education is the only realistic way to prevent unplanned pregnancies and sexually transmitted diseases. Studies have shown, however, that abstinence-only sex education doesn't work, and since kids will be kids and will not always think before they act (even the best-behaved Christian kids do stupid things every now and then), the best sex education you can give them is the kind that keeps them smart and well-informed, not the kind that keeps them ignorant, ill-informed, and unrealistically expects them to save themselves for marriage. The list goes on and on, but it proves once again that if you're going to preach on a hot-button issue like abortion, then claim to be Pro-Life on the issue, don't preach it unless you intend on supporting the child's growth and development through the years after the child is born. This means feeding and caring for the poor, the needy, and the homeless, and providing help and support, not judgment and condemnation, for unwed mothers and their babies. This means making contraceptives available and affordable for all so that an abortion becomes unnecessary, and a child isn't born into abuse, neglect, poverty, and despair. This means sex education, not abstinence-only sex education, for all children, not just those who are or may be at risk of becoming unwed teen parents. This means pregnancy-prevention programs for at-risk teens. The list goes on. I honestly don't see any conservative Christians getting involved, though, and I call that a shame and a disgrace. Instead, they cry, "Abortion is murder," do their Walk For Life campaigns and other protests, then go home, eat supper with their families, pat themselves on the back for doing their good deed of the day, go to church to sing their praises to the Lord, and ignore the issue hoping that it will go away on its own. What they are not doing is the one thing Jesus commands us to do, and that is: Love your neighbor as yourself. I think what he really means is, "If you want to see an end to abortion, then get out there and get your hands dirty. Get involved!" In other words, don't judge, condemn, or control a woman's body. Start or get involved in programs that are all about pregnancy prevention. Don't just convert people into Christians and pat yourself on the back for it. Get out there and help the poor, the needy, and the homeless. Get out there and offer your ongoing support for an unwed mother struggling to raise her baby. And most importantly of all, stop imposing yourself on others, judging those whose circumstances you do not understand, and condemning those who disagree with you. A message for all conservative Christians, but sadly, one that will not be heeded anytime soon.

JoAnn, I am so proud of you. You're wonderful!

Peace and Love, Bruce Chris

[tymejumper]

:) a conservative Christian can't or at least shouldn't call themselves Pro-Life if they oppose abortion while continuing to support gun ownership and the death penalty, right? :confused:



These are my thoughts exactly.

[Jennifer5]

I had a lot to say, but then everything became irrelevant as the conversation went on. I'm impressed by the way this conversation took place. All of you managed to make incredibly important points about abortion, a very sensitive topic, while respecting each other's opinions.:love:

[Dakota]

:o I wasn't really all that respectful in the beginning. My conservative Christian mindset kind of got in the way there for awhile because I wasn't looking at the big picture until I read all of these posts and began opening my mind up a little more. I still oppose abortion, and I always will. I will continue to strongly believe that abortion is murder because of the pain and suffering the baby is forced to endure during an abortion (why not deliver the baby alive and fully intact instead, regardless of its gestational age, then name the baby and give him or her a proper burial so that the baby can be counted as a family member and not thrown away and ignored like trash?). However, it is an even bigger abomination to control a woman's body and force her to keep a child she doesn't want and cannot afford to raise, causing the child to grow up in abuse, neglect, poverty, and despair, and without a mother's love. And even if the child was placed in an adopted home, there is no guarantee that the child will be brought up in a loving and nurturing home, even if the child was adopted by Christian parents (who would only indoctrinate their new child with false biblical doctrine and teach them to hate, judge, and condemn those who do not conform to or agree with all or most church doctrine, anyway). Some foster care and adopted homes are abusive and neglectful, and in very rare cases, a child dies. A child's cries are never heard until it is too late. Some foster parents are in it only for the money. They don't care about the child's welfare at all. The tragedy goes on and on. Until we fix the system, children will continue to suffer, and abortion will remain the only option for some women facing an unplanned pregnancy. What right do we have to ban the personal choices of others when we simply do not understand the circumstances involved? :)

[Jennifer5]

:o I wasn't really all that respectful in the beginning.

Your opinions are strong ones, everyones are regarding this topic. You made it clear that they were your opinions though, not the right opinion. With a touchy subject, that's very challenging to do. I admire you for that and even more for going one step further to truly listen to the stories of others. :love:

[Dakota]

:) I am quite stubborn and opinionated, that's for sure! Especially when I'm passionate about something. :)

[Jennifer5]

:) I am quite stubborn and opinionated, that's for sure! Especially when I'm passionate about something. :)

I think highly of that trait, I'm like that too. :p