Hello, I'm here for some questions.

[PluribusChristian]

I go to a Lutheran Church that is conservative. It contains several hundred Christians, most of them do not want to interact with Gays and would prefer to think about other things. My Pastor though, shares my perspective that ignoring anyone is not a good thing.

I was pointed to this website from another website and I thought I would come here and ask some social and theological questions. I do not see Gays as anything other then people walking this life. I never really knew that "Gay and Christian" mixed. I have the typical view of Gay life I suppose.

I am very concerned how the interactions between Gay and Straight Christians is perceived by non and anti Christians. After all is said and done, we are going to an eternity where this life will be a dim memory.

I cannot pretend to know what it's like to be Gay or Bi, and I would be considered your average type person on the street (attitude, demeanor, looks etc.,). But as a sinner, I'm as common as it gets. But I do know that dislike and animosity towards each by Gays and straights is not going to be productive or will bring peace to society.

Where do I go to ask questions?

[keltic63]

Welcome Pluribus!

Please take some time to read through the threads here on the forums, I'm sure we've covered many of the questions you may have.

If they are of a delicate nature, or you think they may violate the forum guidelines, you should definitely ask them in the "Foyer" which is an option you need to select. Here is a link that tells you how to do that. http://www.soulforce.org/forums/showthread.php?t=3846

Please take some time to review those guidlines as well and keep in mind that being new to our community, you may be unaware of the impact of certain words.

That's not meant to scare you, but since you asked, I thought I'd let you in on how others have made some mistakes as they entered into conversations.

by all means, jump into the discussions!

keltic
moderator

[Pablo Rafael]

Hello Pluribus,

Up until last year I was a teacher in an LCMS school. I had been teaching for 24 years. When I "came out" at the end of the school year, it was decided not to offer me a contract for the next year. As I look back on it, I should have put up more of a fight instead of going peacefully; too late to change that now.

I go to a Lutheran Church that is conservative. It contains several hundred Christians, most of them do not want to interact with Gays and would prefer to think about other things.

The Lutheran congregation where I worked did exactly the same thing that you decsribed. No one has been rude or unkind to me. People said they were sorry to see me go, but no one challenged the pastor or the set-in-stone-from-the 1500's policies of the LCMS. Not one person stood up for me. They just were exceedingly glad to see me go away so they wouldn't have to think about the issue any more.

I am very concerned how the interactions between Gay and Straight Christians is perceived by non and anti Christians. After all is said and done, we are going to an eternity where this life will be a dim memory.

I can't say anything from a non Christian perspective, but I can share my experiences. I have since joined the Episcopal church and am a musician there as well as in a local Catholic church. In neither congreagation has the gay issue been a problem. They have warmly accepted me. I have faced no hostility or animosity. No one's attitude toward me has changed in the slightest. Plus from almost everyone who knew me gave me a resoponse similar to, "You're gay? Like I hadn't figured that out already." :rolleyes: It was interesting that the LCMS school I worked at had no problem with me being gay, because most everyone knew or suspected it for years, but the problem was with being OPENLY gay.

Conservative Christians always use the Bible to give justification for excluding gays, but in actuality the Bible does not speak a word about sexual orientation. Most people who say being gay is a sin haven't the slightest clue where in the Bible that teaching comes from (because it isn't there.) The only references about gay sexual behavior are in the holiness laws of Leviticus, and they were done away with in New Testament times. The New Testament speaks against idolatry and sexual immorality (for gays and straights alike), but not against loving gay (or straight for that matter) relationships.

But in the end it is the grace of God that triumphs. God's love is for us all, gay and straight alike. None of us are worthy on our own to be a part of God's family. We are his children because he loves us and has brought us to himself through his life, death and resurrection.

Anyhow I am rambling on, I see. I will bring this to a close.

Glad to have you join us. It is always great to see someone who is willing to learn and look at things from a different perspective.

Tu Amigo, Pablo

[PluribusChristian]

Welcome Pluribus!

Please take some time to read through the threads here on the forums, I'm sure we've covered many of the questions you may have.

If they are of a delicate nature, or you think they may violate the forum guidelines, you should definitely ask them in the "Foyer" which is an option you need to select. Here is a link that tells you how to do that. http://www.soulforce.org/forums/showthread.php?t=3846

Please take some time to review those guidlines as well and keep in mind that being new to our community, you may be unaware of the impact of certain words.

That's not meant to scare you, but since you asked, I thought I'd let you in on how others have made some mistakes as they entered into conversations.

by all means, jump into the discussions!

keltic
moderator

Thanks.

I'm no where near homophobic, but I am somewhat scared to be misunderstood or thought of us hateful. But what is far more important is to fight this hatred situation that the media covers relentlessly. Like the post from Pablo, I know many Churches that would ask a Gay teacher to leave their position if they were openly Gay, but I have yet to see this rabid hate filled environment you see as commonplace on TV. Mostly it's been a situation where they wish this person well in a congregation or denomination other then their's.

The Gay issue "in the Church" is a trivky one to navigate. I won't mislead anyone here, I see from the perspective of orthodoxy on sexual conduct and behavior, and have no clue of what GLBT's believe on the subject. For example, is there abstinence preachings in a Gay friendly Church? Where does Gay Marriage come from in context of the Bible?

And so on.

The last thing I want to do is to insult people with my first questions.

I would rather like Gays here to ask me questions about how I see the Gay world as a whole and how that has effected me as a Christian.

I'll do all I can not to hurt anyone's feelings. Like with the whole Ms. California situation, we have to come to a place where different opinions do not mean the kind of comments she got directed towards her from the typical kinds of people that the press always seem to put on the screen. I don't know who this Perez Hilton guy is, but he didn't represent any Gay people I have been around. I've been wanting a place where I could dialogue with Gays that is devoid of such intense hostility. This is your website and your environment where respect should be given the postions here.

Are you OK with how Perez Hilton treated Ms. California Carrie Prejean?

She's rapidly becoming a hero to many people in my Church.

Anyway, thanks for the heads up on other places to go here for info.

[PluribusChristian]

Hello Pluribus,

Up until last year I was a teacher in an LCMS school. I had been teaching for 24 years. When I "came out" at the end of the school year, it was decided not to offer me a contract for the next year. As I look back on it, I should have put up more of a fight instead of going peacefully; too late to change that now.

I don't know, if you have found another job, then following the will of the Denomination may be the best way to handle things. If I was teaching in a Mormon school and they found out I have beleifs that oppose LDS beliefs and they asked me to leave, I would leave. I could pitch a fit and so could they, but at the end of it all, I believe God does not live on a planet near a star called Kolob. Religion is a powerful freedom in this world.

The Lutheran congregation where I worked did exactly the same thing that you decsribed. No one has been rude or unkind to me. People said they were sorry to see me go, but no one challenged the pastor or the set-in-stone-from-the 1500's policies of the LCMS.

I have yet to see any hysteria or hatred be meted out to anyone that don't believe as the LCMS does, by any of its membership. They do take a stand on issues but that is for the membership. I'm not here at Soulforce trying to get anyone to believe something different than this place espouses. This whole Gay versus Christian situation troubles me greatly.

Not one person stood up for me. They just were exceedingly glad to see me go away so they wouldn't have to think about the issue any more.

Would you have taught the denominations stand on sexuality to the students attending their school?

I can't say anything from a non Christian perspective, but I can share my experiences. I have since joined the Episcopal church and am a musician there as well as in a local Catholic church. In neither congreagation has the gay issue been a problem.

That may be the beauty inherent in Christian denominations. I'm hapy that you have found a denom where you can be happy.

They have warmly accepted me. I have faced no hostility or animosity. No one's attitude toward me has changed in the slightest

It's cool that you say the conservative Church was nice to you as well.

Plus from almost everyone who knew me gave me a resoponse similar to, "You're gay? Like I hadn't figured that out already." :rolleyes:

What do you mean by that? How can someone "know you're gay" from looking at you?

It was interesting that the LCMS school I worked at had no problem with me being gay, because most everyone knew or suspected it for years, but the problem was with being OPENLY gay.

Isn't that a fair thing?

Conservative Christians always use the Bible to give justification for excluding gays, but in actuality the Bible does not speak a word about sexual orientation.

That is why I am here for the most part. I'd like to know how the Bible as in Christian culture, is Gay friendly.

Most people who say being gay is a sin haven't the slightest clue where in the Bible that teaching comes from (because it isn't there.)

Is there a place here at Soulforce where we can discuss theology? I believe most Christians haven't a clue about theological issues as deep as Christian conduct on sexuality. Is there scripture that affirms a gay life?

The only references about gay sexual behavior are in the holiness laws of Leviticus, and they were done away with in New Testament times. The New Testament speaks against idolatry and sexual immorality (for gays and straights alike), but not against loving gay (or straight for that matter) relationships.

In a "marriage?"

But in the end it is the grace of God that triumphs. God's love is for us all, gay and straight alike. None of us are worthy on our own to be a part of God's family. We are his children because he loves us and has brought us to himself through his life, death and resurrection.

Anyhow I am rambling on, I see. I will bring this to a close.

If that's rambling, then my Pastor does a lot of it every Sunday. Your orthodoxy is to be commended.

Glad to have you join us. It is always great to see someone who is willing to learn and look at things from a different perspective.

Are Gay people (including Gay Christians) or conservative Christians going away any time soon? Not likely. It's long pass time to ignore the people or the issues in these camps.

[/QUOTE]Tu Amigo, Pablo[/QUOTE]

Are we not brothers in Christ?

IHS

PC

[PluribusChristian]

Welcome Pluribus!

Please take some time to read through the threads here on the forums, I'm sure we've covered many of the questions you may have.

If they are of a delicate nature, or you think they may violate the forum guidelines, you should definitely ask them in the "Foyer" which is an option you need to select. Here is a link that tells you how to do that. http://www.soulforce.org/forums/showthread.php?t=3846

Please take some time to review those guidlines as well and keep in mind that being new to our community, you may be unaware of the impact of certain words.

That's not meant to scare you, but since you asked, I thought I'd let you in on how others have made some mistakes as they entered into conversations.

by all means, jump into the discussions!

keltic
moderator

OK, I went to your url, and I sure hope I'm not in trouble already:

By default, the foyer forum is not viewable by regular members or the public. Members have to specifically join this forum in their User CP.

The foyer is an entrance hall in a house. We bring to the foyer those guests who have posted messages which violate the Soulforce guidelines on anti-gay comments. The foyer is also a place for threads that the moderator team believes are not appropriate for the public forums where they can be viewed by all visitors.

Being "anti-gay" is not a productive position for a Christian. I think the whole thing is being manipulated by a media that is openly hostile to Christians of any scope and this is an issue that has to be discussed BY Christians no matter their stance on sexuality gay or straight.

I'll go there though, thanks.

[Pablo Rafael]

PC,

You are going to make me work at explaining my comments I see. I'm not too fond of work. :sick: Lounging around in the lawn chair all day is more my style. :lol:

I agree with you. Religious demoninations need to have the freedom to teach what they want. They also can expect to be challenged on those beliefs; I think that is healthy.

I grew up in the Lutheran Church and taught in three different Lutheran schools during my 24 years of teaching. It has only been recently that I have changed denominations (and that was not for doctrinal reasons). My point is that I didn't have beliefs that differed from the LCMS for the most part. I did have to bite my tongue on several occasions when issues of sexuality were brought up by the students. I never had a problem with teaching religion class when dealing with matters of sexuality because LCMS religious materials do not deal with that topic.

I was not asked to leave because I disagreed with any doctrinal positions of the synod or was teaching anything that disagreed. I was let go simply because I was gay. That I think was wrong. That is what I think should have been challenged.

And yes I do think it is unfair that being a closeted gay is acceptable in the LCMS but being openly gay is not. People in the church that knew me well knew I was gay and were fine with it. The teachers I worked with knew about it. The only problem was with being openly gay. If is is wrong to be gay, then it is always wrong. If it is OK, then it should be always OK. The problem seemed to be that if they issued me a contract for the coming year, there would be the appearance of being liberal. The LCMS seems more concerned that it will appear less than perfectly orthodox than it is about anything else. Appearances are what are really important.

I went to a LCMS church many years ago with a gay pastor. We all knew he was gay. A sizeable portion of the congregation was gay. The majority of the male teachers on the staff were gay. As long as it was not spoken about everyone was fine with it. Even at the time, when I was firmly in the closet, I thought that seemed a little hypocritical.

You asked about how the Bible was gay-friendly. I think that is a backward question. I was asked once how I could "justify being gay"? I asked back how that person could justify being straight. I don't have to justify being gay. I just am gay. I also have blue eyes; that is just the way I am.

The Bible is gay friendly when it talks about loving each other, forgiving each other, not oppresing those who are downtrodden or different. The Bible is gay friendly when it says that all are saved by grace. The Bible is gay friendly when it talks of Jesus and how He especially reached out to those on the margins of society. The Bible is gay friendly when the very first thing it mentions about human relationships is that is not good that man should be alone.

If someone is going to try to discriminate against me and throw me out of the church and pass laws that take away my rights, then they need to justify that stance. I have not had any trouble with negativity from people or faced any discrimination except for the job loss. Many of the people on these forums have had terrible experiences, however. I do plan on getting married someday (soon hopefully); there is an area where discrimiation is the law of the land.

And that brings us to marriage. The Bible does indeed speak of marriage, but I would put forth that the Biblical idea of marriage is one of property not relationships. In the Old Testament days that is abundantly clear. Look at the propet Nathan's rebuke of David when he took Bathsheba and had her husband Uriah killed. Nathan's whole point is that David took something that was not his property and then killed a man to cover it up. Nowehere does it mention anything about loving Bathsheba or even about the sex. In fact the mention of loving someone comes into play not with David and any of his wives, but with Jonathan. I doubt that we want to adopt the Old Testament idea of wives as property gained for the purpose of procreation.

The New Testament culture and writings are an improvement. But even there marriage is not much about relationships. The Bible is amazingly silent on romantic relationships. Either they don't exist or God is not all that concerned about them.

The "faith and nonviolence" forum is the place here where these topics can be discussed. Discussion about issues of faith can get a little touchy because so many people here have been so hurt by people who claim to be religious. We have a few conservative Christians, many more liberal Christians and a large number of non-Christians.

I would like to recommend acouple of Books if you are interested in the subject:
What the Bible Really Says About Homosexuality by Helminiak (sp?) is good. He is a Lutheran and looks at the Biblical references to issues pertaining to homosexuality.
Another book is The New Testament and Homosexuality by Robin Scroggs. He also is a Lutheran. This is a theologically deep and historically detailed book, not an easy read but very comprehensive.
My mom found most helpful The Good Book by Peter Gomes. It deals with the Bible in general and not just homosexuality. Gomes is an Episcopalian.
An easy read that also covers the issues of the Bible and homosexulaity is The Children Are Free by Jeff Miner.
And if you haven't seen the DVD For the Bible Tells Me So, you must put in in your Netflix queue.

Aslo on these forums you might want to send a Private Message to "Northern Imager". He is a gay LCMS pastor. He would probably be willing to enter into a discussion with you.

It has been nice discussing this with you. Hopefully we will have more conversations. :tup:

Tu Amigo, Pablo

[PluribusChristian]

PC,

You are going to make me work at explaining my comments I see. I'm not too fond of work. :sick: Lounging around in the lawn chair all day is more my style. :lol:

I agree with you. Religious demoninations need to have the freedom to teach what they want. They also can expect to be challenged on those beliefs; I think that is healthy.

I grew up in the Lutheran Church and taught in three different Lutheran schools during my 24 years of teaching. It has only been recently that I have changed denominations (and that was not for doctrinal reasons). My point is that I didn't have beliefs that differed from the LCMS for the most part. I did have to bite my tongue on several occasions when issues of sexuality were brought up by the students. I never had a problem with teaching religion class when dealing with matters of sexuality because LCMS religious materials do not deal with that topic.

I was not asked to leave because I disagreed with any doctrinal positions of the synod or was teaching anything that disagreed. I was let go simply because I was gay. That I think was wrong. That is what I think should have been challenged.

And yes I do think it is unfair that being a closeted gay is acceptable in the LCMS but being openly gay is not. People in the church that knew me well knew I was gay and were fine with it. The teachers I worked with knew about it. The only problem was with being openly gay. If is is wrong to be gay, then it is always wrong. If it is OK, then it should be always OK. The problem seemed to be that if they issued me a contract for the coming year, there would be the appearance of being liberal. The LCMS seems more concerned that it will appear less than perfectly orthodox than it is about anything else. Appearances are what are really important.

I went to a LCMS church many years ago with a gay pastor. We all knew he was gay. A sizeable portion of the congregation was gay. The majority of the male teachers on the staff were gay. As long as it was not spoken about everyone was fine with it. Even at the time, when I was firmly in the closet, I thought that seemed a little hypocritical.

You asked about how the Bible was gay-friendly. I think that is a backward question. I was asked once how I could "justify being gay"? I asked back how that person could justify being straight. I don't have to justify being gay. I just am gay. I also have blue eyes; that is just the way I am.

The Bible is gay friendly when it talks about loving each other, forgiving each other, not oppresing those who are downtrodden or different. The Bible is gay friendly when it says that all are saved by grace. The Bible is gay friendly when it talks of Jesus and how He especially reached out to those on the margins of society. The Bible is gay friendly when the very first thing it mentions about human relationships is that is not good that man should be alone.

If someone is going to try to discriminate against me and throw me out of the church and pass laws that take away my rights, then they need to justify that stance. I have not had any trouble with negativity from people or faced any discrimination except for the job loss. Many of the people on these forums have had terrible experiences, however. I do plan on getting married someday (soon hopefully); there is an area where discrimiation is the law of the land.

And that brings us to marriage. The Bible does indeed speak of marriage, but I would put forth that the Biblical idea of marriage is one of property not relationships. In the Old Testament days that is abundantly clear. Look at the propet Nathan's rebuke of David when he took Bathsheba and had her husband Uriah killed. Nathan's whole point is that David took something that was not his property and then killed a man to cover it up. Nowehere does it mention anything about loving Bathsheba or even about the sex. In fact the mention of loving someone comes into play not with David and any of his wives, but with Jonathan. I doubt that we want to adopt the Old Testament idea of wives as property gained for the purpose of procreation.

The New Testament culture and writings are an improvement. But even there marriage is not much about relationships. The Bible is amazingly silent on romantic relationships. Either they don't exist or God is not all that concerned about them.

The "faith and nonviolence" forum is the place here where these topics can be discussed. Discussion about issues of faith can get a little touchy because so many people here have been so hurt by people who claim to be religious. We have a few conservative Christians, many more liberal Christians and a large number of non-Christians.

I would like to recommend acouple of Books if you are interested in the subject:
What the Bible Really Says About Homosexuality by Helminiak (sp?) is good. He is a Lutheran and looks at the Biblical references to issues pertaining to homosexuality.
Another book is The New Testament and Homosexuality by Robin Scroggs. He also is a Lutheran. This is a theologically deep and historically detailed book, not an easy read but very comprehensive.
My mom found most helpful The Good Book by Peter Gomes. It deals with the Bible in general and not just homosexuality. Gomes is an Episcopalian.
An easy read that also covers the issues of the Bible and homosexulaity is The Children Are Free by Jeff Miner.
And if you haven't seen the DVD For the Bible Tells Me So, you must put in in your Netflix queue.

Aslo on these forums you might want to send a Private Message to "Northern Imager". He is a gay LCMS pastor. He would probably be willing to enter into a discussion with you.

It has been nice discussing this with you. Hopefully we will have more conversations. :tup:

Tu Amigo, Pablo

Hey PR,

I haven't the time right now to respond with the length your post needs and deserves, so I'll get back to you later or tomorrow.

BTW, I'm not so much a Lutheran, as I am going to a Lutheran Church right now. I feel comfortable in many different denoms and the non-denoms as well.

BUT . . . on the issue of love and marriage and Uriah, Bathsheba and David, Nathan's little fable (parable-like) on the neighbor with the one lamb he loved like a daughter and the neighbor with many sheep, is quite the love aspect of a relationship. But I feel it is a story about God and Uriah moreso than any other perspective. Uriah was killed and he was an intensely good man.

But for now, thank you for the long reply.

[BruceChris]

You have not yet told us where you live, although I get the feeling that it is in or near the Bible belt. There are, of course, many more liberal churches in larger cities. I know them only by reputation, but to me the Missouri Synod has about the same flavor as Southern Baptist.

The LCMS is not the same as the ELCA, but I did post this about the ELCA recently. http://www.soulforce.org/forums/showthread.php?t=6216 It mentions that their church is very definitely keeping is's options open, as far as judging gays. Most mainline denominations are struggling with these issues, but not very publically.

You could also explore http://www.welcomingresources.org/ or
http://whosoever.org/index.shtml

I am going to try to send you an article that explores just how much human sexuality can vary, in ways that have only been explored by science quite recently. And all of these sexualities are conditions of birth, just like race, which is protected by law. There are many of us out there who are not fully differentiated males or females, this is often not obvious, and often only science can fully explain this. And God does speak to us through science, just ask Galileo.

Peace and Love, Bruce Chris

[PluribusChristian]

You have not yet told us where you live, although I get the feeling that it is in or near the Bible belt. [?QUOTE]

I'm a Californian spending some time in the Midwest. I'll be in the Chicago area soon.

[QUOTE]There are, of course, many more liberal churches in larger cities.

And some very conservative ones too.

I know them only by reputation, but to me the Missouri Synod has about the same flavor as Southern Baptist.

I'm cool with either one. And some liberal denoms too. The United Methodists got a good Church.

The LCMS is not the same as the ELCA, but I did post this about the ELCA recently. http://www.soulforce.org/forums/showthread.php?t=6216

I know the two well.

It mentions that their church is very definitely keeping is's options open, as far as judging gays.

Interesting phrasing. "judging gays," or affirming homosexuality? I've never been to a Church that "judges gays." Conduct seems to be the issue.

Most mainline denominations are struggling with these issues, but not very publically.

They have to. Ignoring reality never really works for long.

You could also explore http://www.welcomingresources.org/ or
http://whosoever.org/index.shtml

I'll check 'em out. I'm not overall OK with liberal theology. Too many Spongs getting applause. I just cannot stand for hate and vitriol coming out of any Christian venue.

I am going to try to send you an article that explores just how much human sexuality can vary, in ways that have only been explored by science quite recently.

Hmm, I'm older than 21. Just looking at my own life gives me plenty of diversity to "study."

And all of these sexualities are conditions of birth, just like race, which is protected by law.

That's a pretty firm statement on as yet an undecided theory. I'd rather give people the right to choose conduct becoming of a Christian. Too many psycho-theories are here today and gone tomorrow. The Gospel is eternal.

There are many of us out there who are not fully differentiated males or females, this is often not obvious, and often only science can fully explain this.

Science can only explain things to a certain degree. And that, all depends on the individual scientist's mindset. I am very science oriented, but science has also been used for bad things. I'll stick with how people treat me and how I treat others.

And God does speak to us through science, just ask Galileo.

I'll amen to that.

Peace and Love, Bruce Chris

And back at ya.

[Jennifer5]

Welcome PC :wave: