Will you settle for "civil unions"?

[awediot]

Will you personally settle for legal civil unions, or will you insist we be deemed as "married" in a religious context?

[u-dog]

Will you personally settle for legal civil unions, or will you insist we be deemed as "married" in a religious context?

Seems like you have your categories a little askew awediot. The choices as I understand it are:

a. nothing -- gay couples have to just shack up together.
b. civil unions which have some or many of the benefits of straight marriage
c. or civil marriage in which same sex marriages are on an equal footing with Straight marriages.

married in a religious context is a matter for each religion to figure out for itself. if you go to an MCC church or a UCC church you can have a religious marriage right now.

I used to be an advocate for civil Unions but now I believe that true justice will only be achieved when the legal institution of marriage is open to all persons.

[Daniel]

Will you personally settle for legal civil unions, or will you insist we be deemed as "married" in a religious context?

Not settling for 'civil marriage' for the simple fact that separate is NOT equal. And this has NOTHING to do with being married in a religious context. Marriage is acivil matter in this country, even though conservatives think otherwise. The state does NOT confer marriage in a religious context. Nor does it promote religion.

The cat is out of the bag awediot. We aren't going 'back' to the idea of civil unions. Just ask all the couples who had them in New Jersey and still can't get the benefits the state says they have.

Let's put it this way: do you think most straight American's would sign up civil unions if they could?

[awediot]

Seems like you have your categories a little askew awediot. The choices as I understand it are:

a. nothing -- gay couples have to just shack up together.
b. civil unions which have some or many of the benefits of straight marriage
c. or civil marriage in which same sex marriages are on an equal footing with Straight marriages.

married in a religious context is a matter for each religion to figure out for itself. if you go to an MCC church or a UCC church you can have a religious marriage right now.

I used to be an advocate for civil Unions but now I believe that true justice will only be achieved when the legal institution of marriage is open to all persons.

hey u-dog...

It seems contradictory to state both that the religious aspect is up to any particular church, but you will settle for nothing less than being recognized as "married"... (the power a religious "church" has to perform and recognize a secular contract is admittedly weird and not even biblical)...But I guess I'm curious where we are willing to declare victory. Is it in the secular world, or must churches (fundamental, mainstream) be "brought around" to our way of thinking and made to marry us?

[awediot]

How goes Daniel? -hope your swell and all that :)

Not settling for 'civil marriage' for the simple fact that separate is NOT equal. And this has NOTHING to do with being married in a religious context. Marriage is acivil matter in this country, even though conservatives think otherwise. The state does NOT confer marriage in a religious context. Nor does it promote religion.

The cat is out of the bag awediot. We aren't going 'back' to the idea of civil unions. Just ask all the couples who had them in New Jersey and still can't get the benefits the state says they have.

Do you think if a church (mainstream) called them married, that would change?

Let's put it this way: do you think most straight American's would sign up civil unions if they could?

uh...sorta strawmanny argument... Obviously, no.

[tdogg]

Civil marriage is not the same as religious marriage, at least in the real world. Yes, there are folks that equate it because they are unable to think outside the boundaries of their religion.

I was married in September, legally, in an outdoor wedding by a MCC minister. Married in every way, yet church had nothing to do with it. We allowed God to be a small part in our wedding, but we already understood that God considered us life partners and as good as married spiritually. It was the legal marriage we sought at that time, including all the rights privileges, protections and responsibilities that come along with legal marriage.

My answer to this question would be that nothing less than equality is acceptable.

[awediot]

Civil marriage is not the same as religious marriage, at least in the real world. Yes, there are folks that equate it because they are unable to think outside the boundaries of their religion.

I was married in September, legally, in an outdoor wedding by a MCC minister. Married in every way, yet church had nothing to do with it. We allowed God to be a small part in our wedding, but we already understood that God considered us life partners and as good as married spiritually. It was the legal marriage we sought at that time, including all the rights privileges, protections and responsibilities that come along with legal marriage.

My answer to this question would be that nothing less than equality is acceptable.

Congratulations! -you scared me with the "we allowed God to be a small part...", but the "he already understands..." makes perfect, beautiful sense... I hope happiness and blessings an your new commitment...


-I have to wonder just what it is we want to be equal with? The mainstream, bigoted and sick society that happens to have power right now? It feels like so many are fighting hard be invited aboard a sinking ship... Personally, if I've got the same legal rights, benefits and protection under the secular law, and am right with God, screw their acceptance... We'll always be weird and abnormal. I find strength in it.

[Daniel]

How goes Daniel? -hope your swell and all that :)

Do you think if a church (mainstream) called them married, that would change?


Am well...thanks for asking. :) How are you?

No. I do not think it would change. What has to change is the law.

Gay people don't need religion to be married. And there are plenty of straight people who forgo the religious element. And no one bars them from being married. Straight conservatives don't own the word. It's that simple really. And their perpetuating the belief that 'God' invented marriage is right up there with Creationism. As it is, there a heck of a lot more biological data regarding same-sex sexuality than there is for the earth being made in 7 days and man existing along side dinosaurs.

Really- who do they think they are kidding? The facts are stacked against their view. As is the 'evolution' of our society. Young people really don't care about this issue.

[Alecto]

-I have to wonder just what it is we want to be equal with? The mainstream, bigoted and sick society that happens to have power right now? It feels like so many are fighting hard be invited aboard a sinking ship... Personally, if I've got the same legal rights, benefits and protection under the secular law, and am right with God, screw their acceptance... We'll always be weird and abnormal. I find strength in it.

There are some people who, while they don't oppose marriage equality, totally agree with you: they have no personal desire to get married specifically because they think the institution is too broken to fix. Not sure where I stand personally, but yeah, you're right.

As it stands, if you're gay, then "personally", you DONT have the same legal rights, benefits, and protetion under the secular law. And if they make this new thing called "civil union" or "gayrriage" or whatever they want to call it that's NOT "marriage", but keep the (again, to stress, LEGAL) term "marriage" for straight people, that's setting up a "separate but equal" scenario which our country has already proven can't work. Even if the two were perfectly equal at the start, every time some change is made to tax law or child custody law or any other aspect of "marriage", people are going to have to fight for the gay version all over again. Because changing one wouldn't change the other because they're not the same. Ultimately, the only reasons I've heard for proposing two separate institutions boil down to the fact that some people think that their relationships and their lives are superior, and that they deserve some special recognition for not being gay.

Would I settle for "civil unions" if straight relationships were also referred to, in civil law, "civil unions"? Sure, but I don't think that'll happen in this country (cause then the people who said we want to "redefine marriage" would technically be right).

[awediot]

Am well...thanks for asking. :) How are you?

No. I do not think it would change. What has to change is the law.

Gay people don't need religion to be married. And there are plenty of straight people who forgo the religious element. And no one bars them from being married. Straight conservatives don't own the word. It's that simple really. And their perpetuating the belief that 'God' invented marriage is right up there with Creationism. As it is, here a heck of a lot more biological data regarding same-sex sexuality than there is for the earth being made in 7 days and that man existed along side dinosaurs.

Really- who do they think they are kidding? The facts are stacked against their view. As is the 'evolution' of our society. Young people really don't care about this issue.

I agree it is just a matter of time, and as long as the law changes, THE LAW as supposedly handed down from on high...well, we can deal with as individuals (or legal couples one day soon),...

~we can discuss the other stuff later ;)

[Daniel]

I agree it is just a matter of time, and as long as the law changes, THE LAW as supposedly handed down from on high...well, we can deal with as individuals (or legal couples one day soon),...

~we can discuss the other stuff later ;)

That higher law? Nice idea. Fortunately, we have separation of church and state, which has nothing to do with putting the 10 commandments in every town square.

I think conservatives are really pissed off because the supremes struck down sodomy laws. However, they conveniently forget that those same laws applied to them. ;)

[awediot]

That higher law? Nice idea. Fortunately, we have separation of church and state, which has nothing to do with putting the 10 commandments in every town square.

I think conservatives are really pissed off because the supremes struck down sodomy laws. However, they conveniently forget that those same laws applied to them. ;)

Just wait until we start recruiting from the classrooms http://www.clicksmilies.com/s1106/spezial/Fool/obm.gif

[Daniel]

Just wait until we start recruiting from the classrooms http://www.clicksmilies.com/s1106/spezial/Fool/obm.gif

Oh...they hand out tupperware for each person you've recruited. Didn't you get the memo? I have a whole set. :rolleyes:

Did you catch this a few days ago?

http://www.towleroad.com/2009/06/pat-robertson-kids-become-gay-because-of-sexual-abuse-from-men.html

Dan Savage puts things nicely.

[awediot]

There are some people who, while they don't oppose marriage equality, totally agree with you: they have no personal desire to get married specifically because they think the institution is too broken to fix. Not sure where I stand personally, but yeah, you're right.

It's a fine line, especially for gay Christians... My hope does not lie in this world, and I hold little faith in my fellow man, but I need them, and I care about them, and am forced to comply with those who have power over me... I don't expect even getting all we want from this secular society will give us the happiness we seek, and it disturbs me to see spiritual people who seem to be putting such hope in a ratty, temporal basket.

As it stands, if you're gay, then "personally", you DONT have the same legal rights, benefits, and protetion under the secular law. And if they make this new thing called "civil union" or "gayrriage" or whatever they want to call it that's NOT "marriage", but keep the (again, to stress, LEGAL) term "marriage" for straight people, that's setting up a "separate but equal" scenario which our country has already proven can't work. Even if the two were perfectly equal at the start, every time some change is made to tax law or child custody law or any other aspect of "marriage", people are going to have to fight for the gay version all over again. Because changing one wouldn't change the other because they're not the same. Ultimately, the only reasons I've heard for proposing two separate institutions boil down to the fact that some people think that their relationships and their lives are superior, and that they deserve some special recognition for not being gay. We will NEVER eliminate that "separate but equal" mentality. We are oddballs by nature. No law will change that... People will ALWAYS find some group to feel superior to. Look at the superiority (deserved or not) many here feel toward the evil fundie... Are we trying to change laws, or human nature?

Would I settle for "civil unions" if straight relationships were also referred to, in civil law, "civil unions"? Sure, but I don't think that'll happen in this country (cause then the people who said we want to "redefine marriage" would technically be right).We DO want to redefine marriage.

We can't underestimate what we are demanding... I'm all for equality and respectful treatment, but I can't delude myself that I will probably have to settle for being tolerated by the normal majority who's power, not opinion, is what must matter to me.

[awediot]

Oh...they hand out tupperware for each person you've recruited. Didn't you get the memo? I have a whole set. :rolleyes:

Did you catch this a few days ago?

http://www.towleroad.com/2009/06/pat-robertson-kids-become-gay-because-of-sexual-abuse-from-men.html

Dan Savage puts things nicely.

Oh Lordy... Right up there with Dobson's (ex?) right hand man claiming kids were gay because daddy didn't shower with them (sorry ladies, there's probably something equally perverse for you to google out there, if you want to)...

As a Christian, it tears me up to see such asinine lack of common sense come from the mouths of "our leaders"... Good thing we were warned about it a long time ago.

[Daniel]

It's a fine line, especially for gay Christians... My hope does not lie in this world, and I hold little faith in my fellow man, but I need them, and I care about them, and am forced to comply with those who have power over me... I don't expect even getting all we want from this secular society will give us the happiness we seek, and it disturbs me to see spiritual people who seem to be putting such hope in a ratty, temporal basket.

We will NEVER eliminate that "separate but equal" mentality. We are oddballs by nature. No law will change that... People will ALWAYS find some group to feel superior to. Look at the superiority (deserved or not) many here feel toward the evil fundie... Are we trying to change laws, or human nature?

We DO want to redefine marriage.

We can't underestimate what we are demanding... I'm all for equality and respectful treatment, but I can't delude myself that I will probably have to settle for being tolerated by the normal majority who's power, not opinion, is what must matter to me.

1) Who said anything about finding peace and enlightenment in this world or marriage for that matter? How about we keep the earthly and the spiritual matters separate? We're talking about equal rights here. An even playing field.

2) If you think we won't change the way people see how separate is not equal, then maybe you should just stay in your seat at the back of the bus. And why is it that you think that 'they' have power over you? There is a good saying: we teach people how to treat us. And gay people are standing up for themselves. The kind of declaration you've made may be true insofar in that human nature seem to have a tribal fear of the 'other', but if you listen to this kind of thinking the only result will be in-action.

The Dalai Lama said something very interesting a number of years ago. He noted that Buddhist's, because of their belief in karma, can be prone to non-action, that is, they don't concern themselves with social justice matters ie care of the poor etc, where-as, Catholics have a different belief, and have very active sense of charity. What I hear him saying is that the believes we hold affect the way we are in the world.

Slavery was ended in the mid 19th century and it took another 100 years before there was civil rights (and blacks STILL are struggling). I don't expect that everyone is going to jumping for joy once DOMA is ruled unconstitutional, but progress is just that: progress. You want real happiness? Sit on a cushion. Mediate. Say the Jesus Prayer.

We're lucky to be living. And I agree with the Buddhists who teach that having compassion for one's self and others is the key to being happy. Marriage? It's a great perk.

3) We aren't changing marriage. Go read Boswell if you don't believe me. It's titled Same-sex Unions in Pre-Modern Europe.

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/pgc.asp?page=pwh/index-bos.html

[awediot]

1) Who said anything about finding peace and enlightenment in this world or marriage for that matter? How about we keep the earthly and the spiritual matters separate? We're talking about equal rights here. An even playing field.

Are we? Do you really think that distinction is so clear in all homosexuals eyes? -There are a lot of people who have yet to see a clear line between worldly acceptance and finding peace with "God"... My question is about if this is just a civil rights issue, or something more, and just what "we" think being granted worldly equality will validate.

2) If you think we won't change the way people see how separate is not equal, then maybe you should just stay in your seat at the back of the bus. And why is it that you think that 'they' have power over you? There is a good saying: we teach people how to treat us. And gay people are standing up for themselves. The kind of declaration you've made may be true insofar in that human nature seems to have a fear of the 'other', but if you listen to this kind of thinking the only result will be in-action. It isn't an all or nothing proposition and we may be setting ourselves up for a big fall if we think it is.

The Dalai Lama said something very interesting a number of years ago. He noted that Buddhist's, because of their belief in karma, can be prone to non-action, that is, they don't concern themselves with social justice matters ie care of the poor etc, where-as, Catholics have a different belief, and have very active sense of charity. What I hear him saying is that the believes we hold affect the way we are in the world.Very true.

Slavery was ended in the mid 19th century and it took another 100 years before there was civil rights (and blacks STILL are struggling). I don't expect that everyone is going to jumping for joy once DOMA is ruled unconstitutional, but progress is just that: progress. You want real happiness? Sit on a cushion. Mediate. Say the Jesus Prayer.I want joy... happiness is fleetingand can be got from a bottle ;)

We're lucky to be living. And I agree with the Buddhists who teach that having compassion for one's self and others is the key to being happy. Marriage? It's a great perk.

3) We aren't changing marriage. Go read Boswell if you don't believe me. It's titled Same-sex Unions in Pre-Modern Europe.

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/pgc.asp?page=pwh/index-bos.htmlOverall, the uniting of one male and one female has been the norm (and yes there as some anomalous example). We see it in nature as the archetype, biological norm... Such is life. If we refuse to admit that we are demanding that an "atypical" relationship become more respected, than we're just kidding ourselves. It will never be accepted as the norm.

[Daniel]

Are we? Do you really think that distinction is so clear in all homosexuals eyes? -There are a lot of people who have yet to see a clear line between worldly acceptance and finding peace with "God"... My question is about if this is just a civil rights issue, or something more, and just what "we" think being granted worldly equality will validate.

It isn't an all or nothing proposition and we may be setting ourselves up for a big fall if we think it is.

Very true.

I want joy... happiness is fleetingand can be got from a bottle ;)

Overall, the uniting of one male and one female has been the norm (and yes there as some anomalous example). We see it in nature as the archetype, biological norm... Such is life. If we refuse to admit that we are demanding that an "atypical" relationship become more respected, than we're just kidding ourselves. It will never be accepted as the norm.

What's the scripture?

Rend unto Caesar that which is Caesar's..... etc etc.

I think a LOT more gay people understand what is at stake here as well as the context is which gay marriage is taking place that you might suppose. That's why they are fighting so hard. It's about having civil rights. Anything on top of that is gravy.

You might also remember that many gay people don't believe in a deity. As such, they aren't concerning themselves with winning their crown in heaven. Do they want happiness now? Or course the do! And who the hell doesn't? Everyone wants happiness. Marriage doesn't confer that upon gay people any more than it does upon straight people.

You keep harping about the 'norm' while forgetting that same-sex sexuality is just as much a part of the 'norm' as well, biologically speaking. Every generation has gay people in it. What's not normal about that?

[awediot]

What's the scripture?

Rend unto Caesar that which is Caesar's..... etc etc.

I'll let a fundi answer that... I think we are by far more obsessed with temporal body parts than God is.

I think a LOT more gay people understand what is at stake here as well as the context is which gay marriage is taking place that you might suppose. That's why they are fighting so hard. It's about having civil rights. Anything on top of that is gravy.

Once granted equal status under the law, is having your relationship labeled a "marriage" critical, or gravy?

You might also remember that many gay people don't believe in a deity. As such, they aren't concerning themselves with winning their crown in heaven. Do they want happiness now? Or course the do! And who the hell doesn't? Everyone wants happiness. Marriage doesn't confer that upon gay people any more than it does upon straight people.

Does the word?

You keep harping about the 'norm' while forgetting that same-sex sexuality is just as much a part of the 'norm' as well, biologically speaking. Every generation has gay people in it. What's not normal about that?

I mean the usual, the status quo, the average...and we ain't it. That is a battle for fools.

[Daniel]

How about we back up here a bit?

I am married. Married in Canada actually. And the city and state that I live in recognizes legal gay marriage. It doesn't marry gay people as yet, but it will soon enough.

Do I need a label to tell me that I am OK in the eyes of society and God? No. I don't. I'm not looking for validation. But I am looking for the means to be able to take care of the person that I love.

The word 'marriage' is not a magic wand for acceptance. However, civil union is not marriage.

Why is it that straight people don't want civil unions for themselves?

[awediot]

How about we back up here a bit?

I am married. Married in Canada actually. And the city and state that I live in recognizes legal gay marriage. It doesn't marry gay people as yet, but it will soon enough.

Do I need a label to tell me that I am OK in the eyes of society and God? No. I don't. I'm not looking for validation. But I am looking for the means to be able to take care of the person that I love.

Good. Me too...

The word 'marriage' is not a magic wand for acceptance. However, civil union is not marriage.

I know married people who don't have what I'd call a "marriage"...

What do you mean by the word?

Why is it that straight people don't want civil unions for themselves?

Same reason people who work in McDonald's don't want Burger King for dinner.

[awediot]

So, if I'm fine with the state licensing my union and granting me all the same rights, benefits and responsibilities of a straight couple, but they call it a civil union, am I betraying "The Struggle"? ...am I settling for second class citizen and giving up too early?

[Alecto]

Judging and complaining about other gay people isn't a game I want to get into. If you're content with equal-for-now, more power to you. I don't begrudge people who are happy with civil unions when they're looking for something, anything to protect their relationship. It's my opinion that this disparity: the difference in the words, as I said, WILL eventually be used against us later down the road.

I'm more interested in how you think that we aren't a part of "normal". I'll admit that I have very complex thoughts on this (I'm one of those; I like the word "queer"), but I am intrigued by what one of the other members here once said: there's a minority of the population that is left-handed. It's a fairly constant number each generation, therefore it must be part of God's plan (I'm more agnostic myself, so I'll just use the phrase "natural", or, even, "normal"). There's likewise a pretty sturdy number of people each generation who have same-sex leanings. And we are NOT the only species to have this. There's a good possibility that it is indeed, then, both "natural" and "normal". To use the same comparison, no, that doesn't mean that left-handed people are exactly the same as right-handed people. There's even some tendancies for behavioral/cognitive differences; generalizations that don't hold true for all left-handed people.
I do think that queer people also have possible tendancies for differences; I think we're inclined to be more creative and to have certain spiritual gifts that I can't really qualify. But neither of those means we're "abnormal", nor do either of those things apply to EVERYONE.

[Daniel]

So, if I'm fine with the state licensing my union and granting me all the same rights, benefits and responsibilities of a straight couple, but they call it a civil union, am I betraying "The Struggle"? ...am I settling for second class citizen and giving up too early?

Who are they? Someone who's validation you want but looks down on you?

Six states have gay marriage right now. Iowa among them. Do you think they should have civil unions instead? What would make civil unions better than marriage? What's better about civil unions?

Oh...btw....the 2010 census will count gay couples.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/06/20/210-census-will-count-sam_n_218489.html

[Daniel]

when they're looking for something, anything to protect their relationship. It's my opinion that this disparity: the difference in the words, as I said, WILL eventually be used against us later down the road.

Your opinion is accurate. It's been used right now in New Jersey, where many couples have been denied the rights the state says they have. Don't know about you, but I don't want to be in a position where I have to sue an employer for the rights the state says I have.

[awediot]

Judging and complaining about other gay people isn't a game I want to get into. If you're content with equal-for-now, more power to you. I don't begrudge people who are happy with civil unions when they're looking for something, anything to protect their relationship. It's my opinion that this disparity: the difference in the words, as I said, WILL eventually be used against us later down the road.

So will the fact we prefer our own gender, whatever it is called.

Sorry, but get used to it.

I'm more interested in how you think that we aren't a part of "normal". I'll admit that I have very complex thoughts on this (I'm one of those; I like the word "queer"), but I am intrigued by what one of the other members here once said: there's a minority of the population that is left-handed. It's a fairly constant number each generation, therefore it must be part of God's plan (I'm more agnostic myself, so I'll just use the phrase "natural", or, even, "normal"). There's likewise a pretty sturdy number of people each generation who have same-sex leanings. And we are NOT the only species to have this. There's a good possibility that it is indeed, then, both "natural" and "normal". To use the same comparison, no, that doesn't mean that left-handed people are exactly the same as right-handed people. There's even some tendancies for behavioral/cognitive differences; generalizations that don't hold true for all left-handed people.
I do think that queer people also have possible tendancies for differences; I think we're inclined to be more creative and to have certain spiritual gifts that I can't really qualify. But neither of those means we're "abnormal", nor do either of those things apply to EVERYONE.

Oh great! I'm left handed too! Now if I were just a fat, black woman in a wheel chair.

We are a minority. A minority is not the "norm". Simple as that.

Semantics.

[awediot]

Who are they?
The powers that be.



Someone who's validation you want but looks down on you? Nope.

Six states have gay marriage right now. Iowa among them. Do you think they should have civil unions instead? What would make civil unions better than marriage? What's better about civil unions? I do not care what THEY call it. Just give me equal Human Rights under the law. Calling it "marriage" won't stop bigotry.

Oh...btw....the 2010 census will count gay couples.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/06/20/210-census-will-count-sam_n_218489.htmlGood.

[awediot]

Your opinion is accurate. It's been used right now in New Jersey, where many couples have been denied the rights the state says they have. Don't know about you, but I don't want to be in a position where I have to sue an employer for the rights the state says I have.

Should your employer be forced to hire gay people?

Should you be forced to hire Christians?

[Daniel]

Should your employer be forced to hire gay people?

Should you be forced to hire Christians?

...about gay marriage now turns into 'forcing' people to hire christians? No one is making laws against christians mandating that they can't marry. And btw, your answer, 'the powers that be' strikes me as glib. Perhaps this is entertaining for you, but it makes me not want to continue the conversation.

No. Gay marriage won't stop bigotry. And civil rights for blacks hasn't stopped certain persons from burning crosses on lawns either. But those persons are few these days.

Have fun in the sand box!

[awediot]

...about gay marriage now turns into 'forcing' people to hire christians? No one is making laws against christians mandating that they can't marry. And btw, your answer, 'the powers that be' strikes me as glib. Perhaps this is entertaining for you, but it makes me not want to continue the conversation.

Didn't think the train of thought was that difficult... (apparently to answer tho)

And yes this is entertaining. It is also important and heart-felt.

And, so don't. Ignore me... CARM taught me to get used to it. (from certain types of posters)

No. Gay marriage won't stop bigotry. And civil rights for blacks hasn't stopped certain persons from burning crosses on lawns either. But those persons are few these days.

Have fun in the sand box!It's pretty cool, but for the occasional cat crap.

[Alecto]

If we all "got used to it" sodomy laws would still be on the books, all the bars would be closed and we'd all be living in fear and killing ourselves (in greater numbers than we still are). Unless I mistake your meaning?

[Daniel]

Didn't think the train of thought was that difficult... (apparently to answer tho)

And yes this is entertaining. It is also important and heart-felt.

And, so don't. Ignore me... CARM taught me to get used to it. (from certain types of posters)

It's pretty cool, but for the occasional cat crap.

Oh...I followed the train of thought. No problem there. And yes, these issues are very heart-felt.

When the hospital ignores your health care proxy, it hurts.

When a court rules against your husband's will in favor of his family, if hurts.

When you can't have your man's SS or pension after he dies, it hurts.

When you are thrown out of your apt because you aren't on the lease, it hurts.

The list goes on and on. Civil unions don't fix these things because religious conservatives who believe being gay-is-evil think civil unions are beneath them and don't recognize them. They think they are above the law. That's the real deal.

Separate is not equal.

Either God loves us all or he doesn't. And either marriage is good enough for everyone or it isn't good enough for anyone.

[tdogg]

I mean the usual, the status quo, the average...and we ain't it. That is a battle for fools.

Well than I'm a fool. I will keep fighting for equality, for every person, not just straight people. Until we are all treated equally under the law, I'll keep fighting my fool fight as a fool, at least as some would see it. For me, equality is a no-brainer and something I feel is very much worth my time and effort.

Someone on these forums once called me a warrior goddess. I much prefer to think of myself in that regard, rather than a mere fool. :love:

[awediot]

If we all "got used to it" sodomy laws would still be on the books, all the bars would be closed and we'd all be living in fear and killing ourselves (in greater numbers than we still are). Unless I mistake your meaning?

You do... It is not an all or nothing proposition.

We will never be embraced as typical, normal, average, the model, standard, usual...whatever, because we are not. Get used to that much and embrace your oddness.

We segregate ourselves into gay bars. They don't.

[Daniel]

Someone on these forums once called me a warrior goddess. I much prefer to think of myself in that regard, rather than a mere fool. :love:

I've seen the Goddess side of you as she is no fool!

Go Zena!

[awediot]

Oh...I followed the train of thought. No problem there. And yes, these issues are very heart-felt.

When the hospital ignores your health care proxy, it hurts.

When a court rules against your husband's will in favor of his family, if hurts.

When you can't have your man's SS or pension after he dies, it hurts.

When you are thrown out of your apt because you aren't on the lease, it hurts.

The list goes on and on. Civil unions don't fix these things because religious conservatives who believe being gay-is-evil think civil unions are beneath them and don't recognize them. They think they are above the law. That's the real deal.

Separate is not equal.

Either God loves us all or he doesn't. And either marriage is good enough for everyone or it isn't good enough for anyone.

So what do you want? The Christian influence criminalized?

What is victory to you? When do you win?

[awediot]

Well than I'm a fool. I will keep fighting for equality, for every person, not just straight people. Until we are all treated equally under the law, I'll keep fighting my fool fight as a fool, at least as some would see it. For me, equality is a no-brainer and something I feel is very much worth my time and effort.

Someone on these forums once called me a warrior goddess. I much prefer to think of myself in that regard, rather than a mere fool. :love:

Then you will fight nature, which needs males and females to keep a species going...

We are weird tdogg...Demand your rights, but relish it.

[Daniel]

So what do you want? The Christian influence criminalized?

What is victory to you? When do you win?

You are being provocative. If you think I want those who call themselves Christian to be put in jail, then I don't think you've been reading my posts.

Having equal rights is not about winning. It's about having equal rights.

Ok. I'm done with this thread. :)

Welcome back to the forum awediot.

[awediot]

You are being provocative. If you think I want those who call themselves Christian to be put in jail, then I don't think you've been reading my posts.

Having equal rights is not about winning. It's about having equal rights.

Ok. I'm done with this thread. :)

Welcome back to the forum awediot.

Those were four questions Daniel (loaded? maybe)

You didn't bother to answer one.


-and thanks, but i don't think your hearts in it... http://www.clicksmilies.com/s1106/spezial/Fool/hb.gif

[tdogg]

Awe,

If it were only about me and only about marriage/benefits, I would be satisfied with a civil union. I'm married, have state benefits (but not federal) and a very happy life partnership with the person I married. I'm fairly satisfied.

But it's not all about me. It's about everyone else too. It's especially about our youth, who are suffering because of the anti-gay sentiment that runs particularly wild in religion. It's about stopping the bullying, harrassing, and violence in schools. It's about helping our young citizens feel worthwhile, loved, equal to their straight peers, so that they don't feel the need to fill that void with alcohol, drugs, unsafe sex and even suicide. It's about not eve ever having to read another article about a hate crime against a GLBT person.

It's not all about marriage either. It's about full equality. It's about you, me and everyone else enjoying the exact same rights, privileges, protections and even responsibilities as the next person. Black, white, tall, short, old, young, gay, straight, etc. being treated fully equal under the law. It's about much much more than 'gay marriage' as the media likes to put it.

This has nothing to do with gay rights. It has everything to do with equality. I have nothing against you settling for anything less. You are not required to get up and do anything about the inequality and injustice against GLBT people. You can be satisfied with what you have and refuse to spend another second, dollar or ounce of energy fighting for anyone else. I will fight twice as hard to get us there. It may come, eventually, generations down the road. But I'm working hard to get it here much faster. We can't really waste time, people are literally dying for lack of it. That is why I cannot settle for anything less than full equality.

[tdogg]

I've seen the Goddess side of you as she is no fool!
Go Zena!

Awww, thanks Daniel. :love::love:

Alright, back to the battlefields!!

[awediot]

Awe,

If it were only about me and only about marriage/benefits, I would be satisfied with a civil union. I'm married, have state benefits (but not federal) and a very happy life partnership with the person I married. I'm fairly satisfied.

One thing I've come to accept is that people will never be fully satisfied. When we get what we want, we find we've reached a plateau worth celebrating and praising God for...we also discover a new panorama we could not previously see, a new opening into deeper, thicker woods,a trail needing blazed and a different, even more beautiful and challenging peak, making our greatest accomplishment a cherished stepping stone we soon build from, and leave behind.

But it's not all about me. It's about everyone else too. It's especially about our youth, who are suffering because of the anti-gay sentiment that runs particularly wild in religion. It's about stopping the bullying, harrassing, and violence in schools. It's about helping our young citizens feel worthwhile, loved, equal to their straight peers, so that they don't feel the need to fill that void with alcohol, drugs, unsafe sex and even suicide. It's about not eve ever having to read another article about a hate crime against a GLBT person.

There are those who can only feel good, and find cheap, brief flashes of satisfaction by stepping on others...Stepping on them, or lifting them up, whatever it takes, only gives us a slightly longer rush and purpose.

The pinnacle we all see of not just tolerance, but a genuine, rock solid love, appreciation, want for and respect of each and every previous enemy we've finally loved into actually being lovable, haunts, taunts, inspires us and crushes us with failure... Everyone wants life to be easier, sweeter and richer for the children who will inherit our sin torn world...

It's not all about marriage either. It's about full equality. It's about you, me and everyone else enjoying the exact same rights, privileges, protections and even responsibilities as the next person. Black, white, tall, short, old, young, gay, straight, etc. being treated fully equal under the law. It's about much much more than 'gay marriage' as the media likes to put it.

We can both coerce those we see doing damage into better behavior and silencing their demonizing underground, and we can try to shine a light on the destructive beliefs they harbor... Rights, privileges, protections and responsibilities can be injected into the system through threat of law and punishment. It can be a wonderful, or horrible thing. Respect, acceptance, love and encouragement, cannot be invoked that way...

Can "equality"? Which category is it in? Have we who will settle for nothing less fully defined it even for ourselves yet?

I suppose this thread boils down to if we will settle for "being treated fully equal under the law" as you said, or if we will stay righteously dissatisfied until everybody loves us, and thinks we're just as "normal" as them.

This has nothing to do with gay rights. It has everything to do with equality. I have nothing against you settling for anything less. You are not required to get up and do anything about the inequality and injustice against GLBT people. You can be satisfied with what you have and refuse to spend another second, dollar or ounce of energy fighting for anyone else. I will fight twice as hard to get us there. It may come, eventually, generations down the road. But I'm working hard to get it here much faster. We can't really waste time, people are literally dying for lack of it. That is why I cannot settle for anything less than full equality.

I am more geared toward addressing the beliefs, than the actions of those who are capable of causing harm for a greater good (or, all of us). Political activism targets the deeds which it perceives to be destructive. It is pragmatic, practical, defensive and can be immediately effective... I am grateful for those who've been drawn to serve it... It is also offensive, uncompromising, hypocritical and repressive, biased toward it's own minority's well being... It is of course motivated by a philosophy, but it is the ends, not the means which most drive it along. Unfortunately, this may briefly forge a truce between enemies with a higher evil they both want defeated, which will typically break apart upon success. And worse, whether the Enemy has had a change of heart and a long lasing solution was reached, or if they've just been disempowered and quarantined away where their hatred and vengeance can fester, is a question the soldiers avoid, as it creates strife among the ranks, and the clash of equals begins again.

There was a classic, vicious fundi reverend on CARM who said they wouldn't think twice before kicking their 15 year old boy into the street, should they be "effeminate"... There is no law to solve that... I want him to understand, to see the light as it were, not to be fined or imprisoned if he refuses to house a child he deplores... That is my battle... and it works.

We need both types of "activists" and advocates and peace makers... I just want to know the philosophy or belief systems or religions that inspire and motivate people to reach for the exact same goal in such conflicting, ruinous ways. That is IMO the only way it can really work.

[tdogg]

I agree with you on some points, in that political action alone will not give us the 'equality' we are seeking. Or at least, I am seeking. Which is why I'm active in various aspects.

One of the things that I feel is vital, and that I'm working to do, is bringing the discussion of marriage equality into churches, mainly those that have split congregations, as far as supporting or not supporting marriage equality. Or perhaps the church is seeking to become reconciling. The material is written to explore marriage from a Christian point of view, but also with an open mind. So far my experience doing this has been profound. But the first workshop I'm involved in putting on is down the road 3 months. Guess we'll see how that goes, depending on who shows up.

I think the simplest thing we can do is live out and be ourselves, which is also the most important. Next is talking to people, taking the discussion out to our family, friends, neighbors, co-workers, etc. Talking openly and kindly about the difficult stuff. That is a very hard thing for me to do, because I've listened to people who call themselves Christians say pretty mean and hateful things to me, treat me like crap and try and shove their ideals down my throat. It will take a lot of patience to listen to it for any length of time.

I'm a work in progress, and I'm all about enjoying the journey. I believe we'll have equality in our lifetime (unless it's cut short). But being actively involved feels so much better than sitting around talking about it.