Are there any Christians on this site anymore? [Archive]

awediot

06-23-2009, 02:59 AM

I'm a Christian, Bruce. I am also a student of the teachings of Christ.

Gennee

:love::reading:

Thanks for the reply Gennee.

One thing about Christians is they will first just say "yeah, I am...", as though they all know exactly what is being asked and do not have to initially think about the answer... Then they may elaborate and qualify on their affirmative...but the term itself is most importantly an affirmation that doesn't care what this world has done to, nor thinks about it...

~I am too... A rotten, freakishly conservative, hypocritical, way to nonjudgmental, reluctant and blessed Christian who chose to be so, no more than I chose to be gay... Sadly, I am disillusioned by the orthodox/fundamental church that are my brethren who I'm meant to know forever, and often feel shame at the association the label brings. There are more liberal, loving and understanding congregations who radiate spiritual fruits that the mainstream mostly just judges others by... Many refuse to even believe such creatures as us can exist. I am a heretic to them and I may darken their Churches door, but I cannot join, nor so much as break bread with them... I've told many "so don't call me a Christian..." It doesn't change what I believe or who I am...

I am torn between recoiling away from the gay community as I am from what passes as the Christian Organized Religion... I am...just trying to figure out SoulForce again... Who are they, and what do they want, and can I ever call them "we", as I used to feel like doing. ~That God has ensured my knowledge, belief and faith not hinge on men, is a gift I am barely beginning to let myself appreciate.

nmwolfboy

06-23-2009, 07:35 AM

i try to follow the Christ's Way, though i fall short more often than not. You lose me a bit on the substitutionary atonement doctrine. "Christus Victor" is the direction in which i lean.
...but it has been a fairly cut and dried, irreducible description of one who calls them self a Christian for a long time.In the West, perhaps. But it's hardly universal in the church catholic.

Matt Algren

06-23-2009, 10:03 AM

Um...yeah. Why?

awediot

06-23-2009, 10:54 AM

i try to follow the Christ's Way, though i fall short more often than not. You lose me a bit on the substitutionary atonement doctrine. "Christus Victor" is the direction in which i lean.

I tend to think the "He died for my sins" pat answer is in a sense true, it is also a sort of sugar pill and blinding over-simplification.

-I've gone so far as to introduce the logical truth that whatever else Jesus was and did, He was God committing suicide... That tends to stir up some aghast, dead silence.

-please elaborate a little on what you mean by "Christus Victor"...

In the West, perhaps. But it's hardly universal in the church catholic.

I've never heard of a Catholic who didn't believe Christ was the Savior... They do put an excessive amount of baggage on themselves and way over-complicate the process with middle men, rest stops and spectacle, but they agree on the fundamentals of Jesus' reported nature, and I consider them a theologically Christ centered Church (though many would disagree with me).

baumgrenze

06-23-2009, 12:23 PM

You know who you are. Speak up.

I believe I understand how you feel, if a straight, 70-year-old can approach that condition.

Several times I've tried to reach out to this forum community. Others get responses, positive or negative. I seem to get ignored and excluded.

My most recent attempt was yesterday. See response #10 in:

http://www.soulforce.org/forums/showthread.php?t=6114

Perhaps I am approaching the 'wrong' community. I, for one, believe that it is essential that we pray for influential leaders like Rick Warrren, for example. He has involved Saddleback in an AIDS ministry. In the process he has developed a 'friendship' (at least a mutually respectful social relationship) with a married gay couple. I believe we should pray for this relationship. I believe that it can teach Rick Warren things that reasoned argument never will.

Such a relationship changed Jenne Dehmlow (I met her when my wife and I attended the 1999 Evangelicals Concerned Connection in Tacoma.) Other conservative evangelicals have changed, the late Dr. Lewis Smedes (Professor of Christian Ethics at Fuller Seminary,) Dr. Jack Rogers (Professor of Theological Philosophy at Fuller Seminary for 17 years,) Dr. Arlo Duba (Former Director of the Chapel at Princeton Theological Seminary)...If you don't know these names, look them up. Read the stories of how they changed their perspective. Change can happen. One very powerful way we can make it happen in through prayer!

John

kara speltz

06-23-2009, 01:01 PM

One thing about Christians is they will first just say "yeah, I am...", as though they all know exactly what is being asked and do not have to initially think about the answer... Then they may elaborate and qualify on their affirmative...but the term itself is most importantly an affirmation that doesn't care what this world has done to, nor thinks about it...

I am torn between recoiling away from the gay community as I am from what passes as the Christian Organized Religion... I am...just trying to figure out SoulForce again... Who are they, and what do they want, and can I ever call them "we", as I used to feel like doing. ~That God has ensured my knowledge, belief and faith not hinge on men, is a gift I am barely beginning to let myself appreciate.

First of all, I have to very much disagree with your statement that "Christians just say "yeah, I am...", as though they all know exactly what is being asked and do not have to initially think about the answer..."

I was born and baptised into the Roman Catholic Church, long, long before I came out as a lesbian. I do not believe you can generalize the way you did about Christians. We're all very different, depending on our upbringing and our specific "brand" of Christianity. What gives you the right to "define a Christian"? That sounds like what Falwell and his ilk do. And why think from a perspective of "we/they"? By your very definition you've excluded Mel White, our founder, who defines himself as a follower of a Jewish carpenter, and has a very hard time with calling himself a Christian. Why the need to exclude? Doesn't the world have enough exclusion already?

I've been part of Soulforce from the beginning, and we've always striven to be a multi-faith organization. It was predominantly Christian, but never solely Christian. I'm always grateful to my non-Christian friends for teaching me to be more inclusive in my thinking. Now thanks to them, I end my prayers with, "we pray this in your many names."

I'm an out lesbian at my parish and I preach, so I'm still Catholic because I've found a really welcoming community. If I hadn't, who knows..... While I am still a follower of that Jewish carpenter, there is much within the Christian churches that I find abhorent and do not support.

At 72, I've come to understand that there is no black, no white, but various greys that reflect the diversity of the world.

Kara

Daniel

06-23-2009, 01:09 PM

I believe I understand how you feel, if a straight, 70-year-old can approach that condition.

Several times I've tried to reach out to this forum community. Others get responses, positive or negative. I seem to get ignored and excluded.

Sorry you feel excluded. However, after being on this forum for over 3 years, I can tell you that I can remember many times when I labored over a post and it didn't get a response.

If you've been around a while you may have noticed that many of the regulars that have been here for a long while are not currently participating. There has even been several threads devoted to the topic. My own participation has ebbed and flowed. My sense is that this forum is in a transition period. What will the future bring? I don't know. But if you stick around, I'm sure you will have ample opportunity to become a potent presence.

awediot

06-23-2009, 02:34 PM

I believe I understand how you feel, if a straight, 70-year-old can approach that condition.

Several times I've tried to reach out to this forum community. Others get responses, positive or negative. I seem to get ignored and excluded.

hi John...it is nice to meet you... I'm 44, a strangely conservative, comfortably heretical Christian since I can remember, who happens to be gay...

~I've got a squirming can of worms I'm feeling compelled to open about and on this forum. It is clearly not a Christ centered site or discussion board (not that there's anything wrong with that)... I thought it was when I first came here, but found it to be more ecumenical, "Spiritual but not religious" and deeply entrenched in "New Age", polytheistic thought and hopes... (I could and will go on at some point...)

Not to steal away the dwindling membership (like, where is everybody?), but you may really enjoy GCN - The gay Christian network (http://www.gaychristian.net/index.php?) site and forum. It is much more geared toward the unique issues surrounding homosexuality and Christianity, and is not so much politically/activist motivated, as theologically and philosophically. (it is also much larger and more active) (I'm "Gamel" over there...and my real name is Dean)

~I'm happy to have met you, and even though a straight, 70 year old man can't really "get" the whole queer experience, your obvious empathy, open mindedness and under-appreciated wisdom will more than make up for the flaw of your heterosexuality http://planetsmilies.net/person-smiley-1326.gif...

My most recent attempt was yesterday. See response #10 in:

http://www.soulforce.org/forums/showthread.php?t=6114

Perhaps I am approaching the 'wrong' community. I, for one, believe that it is essential that we pray for influential leaders like Rick Warrren, for example. He has involved Saddleback in an AIDS ministry. In the process he has developed a 'friendship' (at least a mutually respectful social relationship) with a married gay couple. I believe we should pray for this relationship. I believe that it can teach Rick Warren things that reasoned argument never will.

Such a relationship changed Jenne Dehmlow (I met her when my wife and I attended the 1999 Evangelicals Concerned Connection in Tacoma.) Other conservative evangelicals have changed, the late Dr. Lewis Smedes (Professor of Christian Ethics at Fuller Seminary,) Dr. Jack Rogers (Professor of Theological Philosophy at Fuller Seminary for 17 years,) Dr. Arlo Duba (Former Director of the Chapel at Princeton Theological Seminary)...If you don't know these names, look them up. Read the stories of how they changed their perspective. Change can happen. One very powerful way we can make it happen in through prayer!

John

I agree in principle, but have some block on petitioning for prayer chains and the like... Prayer is a very interesting topic in general... maybe a new thread on it specifically...

See ya around, and thanks for the http://www.clicksmilies.com/s1106/spezial/jasons_smilie/thumbsup.gif... AND mutual perspective... hope to see ya at GCN.

nmwolfboy

06-23-2009, 02:35 PM

i didn't say that i disbelieved that Christ is the Savior, only with the doctrine of substitutionary atonement, specifically the idea of penal substitution.

Christus Victor, from Theopedia:
Christus Victor (Christ the Victor) is a view of the atonement taken from the title of Gustaf Aulén's groundbreaking book, first published in 1931, where he drew attention back to the early church's Ransom theory. In Christus Victor, the atonement is viewed as divine conflict and victory over the hostile powers that hold humanity in subjection. Aulén argues that the classic Ransom theory is not so much a rational systematic theory as it is a drama, a passion story of God triumphing over the powers and liberating humanity from the bondage of sin. As Gustav Aulén writes, "the work of Christ is first and foremost a victory over the powers which hold mankind in bondage: sin, death, and the devil."[1]

The Ransom Theory was predominant in the early church and for the first thousand years of church history and supported by all Greek Church Fathers from Irenaeus to John of Damascus. To mention only the most important names Origen, Athanasius, Basil the Great, Gregory of Nyssa, Gregory of Nazianzus, and John Chrysostom. The Christus Victor view was also dominant among the Latin Fathers of the Patristic period including Ambrose, Augustine, Leo the Great, and Gregory the Great.

A major shift occurred when Anselm of Canterbury published his Cur Deos Homo around 1097 AD which marks the point where the predominate understanding of the atonement shifted from the ransom theory to the Satisfaction Doctrine in the Roman Catholic Church and subsequently the Protestant Church. The Eastern Orthodox Church still holds to the Ransom or Christus Victor view. This is built upon the understanding of the atonement put forward by Irenaeus, called "recapitulation".[1]

As the term Christus Victor indicates, the idea of “ransom” should not be seen in terms (as Anselm did) of a business transaction, but more of a rescue or liberation of humanity from the slavery of sin. Unlike the Satisfaction or Penal-substitution views of the atonement rooted in the idea of Christ paying the penalty of sin to satisfy the demands of justice, the Christus Victor view is rooted in the incarnation and how Christ entered into human misery and wickedness and thus redeemed it. Irenaeus called this "Recapitulation" (re-creation). As it is often expressed: "Jesus became what we are so that we could become what he is".
These might seem like really tiny theological differences, but i see them as increasingly divergent. The Eastern Orthodox Church still maintains a ransom/Christus Victor stance, though the Western church relegated it into the background around the time of the great East/West Schism.

tdogg

06-23-2009, 02:49 PM

First of all, I have to very much disagree with your statement that "Christians just say "yeah, I am...", as though they all know exactly what is being asked and do not have to initially think about the answer..."

I do not believe you can generalize the way you did about Christians. We're all very different, depending on our upbringing and our specific "brand" of Christianity. What gives you the right to "define a Christian"? That sounds like what Falwell and his ilk do. And why think from a perspective of "we/they"? By your very definition you've excluded Mel White, our founder, who defines himself as a follower of a Jewish carpenter, and has a very hard time with calling himself a Christian. Why the need to exclude? Doesn't the world have enough exclusion already?

I've been part of Soulforce from the beginning, and we've always striven to be a multi-faith organization. It was predominantly Christian, but never solely Christian. I'm always grateful to my non-Christian friends for teaching me to be more inclusive in my thinking. Now thanks to them, I end my prayers with, "we pray this in your many names."

While I am still a follower of that Jewish carpenter, there is much within the Christian churches that I find abhorent and do not support.

I've come to understand that there is no black, no white, but various greys that reflect the diversity of the world.

I'm in agreement with Kara on the above points. You said it well Kara!

And John, Daniel's response to you was spot-on. It sort of depends upon the day, who is on-line and has time to read/respond, and what else is going as to whether or not you'll get much response to a well-thought out post. It can be hit or miss, so be patient and if it's a thread you are very interested about, try posting something new in a few days to update and you might be surprised at how a different day will make a different in responses.

Daniel

06-23-2009, 03:23 PM

~I've got a squirming can of worms I'm feeling compelled to open about and on this forum. It is clearly not a Christ centered site or discussion board (not that there's anything wrong with that)... I thought it was when I first came here, but found it to be more ecumenical, "Spiritual but not religious" and deeply entrenched in "New Age", polytheistic thought and hopes... (I could and will go on at some point...)

You really don't want to go there.

It should not be forgotten that the logo of this site has two people standing together, Gandhi and King. Gandhi, as I understand it, was a Hindu, and King was a Christian. East and West together- you might say.

I was attracted to the mission of Soulforce and felt that it had a place for me when I learned that one of the original ERiders- Herrin Haven- was a Buddhist. This formerly Pentecostal boy thought that he might fit in. And I've met some really wonderful people here, both online and in 3D.

I am disinclined to call myself a Christian these days. But I really don't think that it matters. I'm not interested in what the label on the jar is, but what's inside the container.

baumgrenze

06-23-2009, 03:31 PM

i didn't say that i disbelieved that Christ is the Savior, only with the doctrine of substitutionary atonement, specifically the idea of penal substitution.

Christus Victor, from Theopedia:

These might seem like really tiny theological differences, but i see them as increasingly divergent. The Eastern Orthodox Church still maintains a ransom/Christus Victor stance, though the Western church relegated it into the background around the time of the great East/West Schism.

Thank you, wolfboy, for the lesson in theology.

I have on my to do list today to write to Atty General Holder. The President sent an email yesterday saying I was to roll up my sleeves.

In addition to a few words about the Justice Department's repulsive response to the Prop 8 federal suit and their inaction on "Don't Ask Don't Tell," I want to draw to his attention this website:

http://change.gov/agenda/civil_rights_agenda/

Just above the section on "Support for the LGBT Community" there is a heading that reads:

Reduce Crime Recidivism by Providing Ex-Offender Support

I will urge him to advocate the approach that seeks to reduce recidivism rather than exacting vengeance for a crime committed. It's not soft on crime or tough on crime, it is smart on crime. I believe this approach also works much better for Matthew 6:12, if we really mean what we pray. Framed properly, this should be a slam-dunk with Republican base. At a minimum it will involve them in spin and squirm on a major scale.

Thanks again,

John

awediot

06-23-2009, 03:46 PM

You really don't want to go there.

It should not be forgotten that the logo of this site has two people standing together, Gandhi and King. Gandhi, as I understand it, was a Hindu, and King was a Christian. East and West together- you might say.

I was attracted to the mission of Soulforce and felt that it had a place for me when I learned that one of the original ERiders- Herrin Haven- was a Buddhist. This formerly Pentecostal boy thought that he might fit in. And I've met some really wonderful people here, both online and in 3D.

I am disinclined to call myself a Christian these days. But I really don't think that it matters. I'm not interested in what the label on the jar is, but what's inside the container.

Are you disinclined because you do not like what the "Church" has done to the Gospel truth and do not want the baggage of the label? Or are you disinclined because you just really don't believe Jesus Christ was the begotten, singular Son of God who was sacrificed "for our sins", and resurrected in a miraculous triumph over death which paves the way for us?

John 14:6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Is an ultimatum most of us decidedly do not like being cornered with.

My solution for awhile was to believe I had discovered the "Spirit" and collective Truth of "Godness" all religions were just expressing in their own, culturally lovely way... All roads lead to Rome like spokes on a wheel... I became not just a Christian, but a Buddhist, a Taoist, Hindu, and Jew who could embrace the inspiration for Odin, Thor, Schrodinger's Cat and the Flying Spaghetti Monster. They were all veneers. Everything and nothing was GOD, and realizing that was HimHerIt actualizing, manifesting from amoeba to Me, and you, and them (well not really the fundi type hold outs who kept preaching about falling and depravity and ruin of self-deification)... I hadn't abandon my childhood, dogmatic belief Jesus alone was the only Godman to walk the earth, I had recognized the Christ consciousness in all things and understood He was mostly just a symbol and pointer to our future selves... I was beyond being merely religious and over the boxing in of labels... I was part of God Itself.

I didn't so much shun the title of Christian, I transcended it... Those who insisted I actually describe the "believe me alone or go to Hell" ultimatum Christ hacked us in two with, were beneath me fear mongerers who I had a duty to enlighten... then it came crashing down in a blinding flash that made more sense than I could stand... But thats just me.

Zerbie

06-23-2009, 04:19 PM

I was beyond being merely religious and over the boxing in of labels... I was part of God Itself.

I didn't so much shun the title of Christian, I transcended it... Those who insisted I actually describe the "believe me alone or go to Hell" ultimatum Christ hacked us in two with, were beneath me fear mongerers who I had a duty to enlighten... then it came crashing down in a blinding flash that made more sense than I could stand... But thats just me.

Hello again, old friend.
:love:
If it is not too personal for you to share, would you consider telling us about the nature of the blinding flash and what it was that caused such a sea change in your perception? Why it meant what it did?

Regarding whatever has brought you back here again, I can only repeat that the internet is the internet: one site is as safe as any, and I know you have the thick skin to 'take' all manner of responses. I can only invite you to follow your inclination and if you feel tempted to share some thoughts here, you are most welcome to do so.

Some have mentioned before how this forum is in flux. Certainly. For me also it is. Once a fit like the proverbial glove, this forum has lost most interest and appeal for me. This is my first post in a month. I do not know how much I will be back in future. I am not sure whether the forum changed or whether I did: both, probably.

As for sharing your personal stuff with the environment of your conversation in flux, well how is that much different from the rest of life?

I am sure you are not the only conservative Christian who is gay, and while I can imagine how it might be difficult to find gay folks who share similar theology or similarly minded Christians who accept homosexuality or take you at your word for your personal truth, I also know you cannot be completely alone in this world. Not possible. There are others more or less like you, though none else with your precise uniqueness. That is what makes you such a joy and treasure, at the same time that relating smoothly with you is for us, on occasion, a bit difficult. I wouldn't say that if I did not know how already aware you are of that element of our collective online 'friendship.'

I would focus on the fruits of your relationships with other people rather than on the specifics of their credo. If there are things you appreciate, love, enjoy, respect about certain folk, then enjoy them. Live life. Then, when you do meet someone who really has a philosophical/theological complementarity with yourself, what a precious, dear companion and confidante you shall have. Not everyone need be your closest intimate, nor need everyone be relegated to a distance.

Anyway, feel yourself welcome.

awediot

06-23-2009, 05:37 PM

There you are! I couldn't believe you hadn't posted in a month... I chalked it up your traveling (which I read a blurb about somewhere)... but guess not... You, Jen and Emproph (WHO'S BEEN IGNORING ME!!! http://www.clicksmilies.com/s1106/spezial/Fool/bur2.gif) Were the three I most wanted to see...so, cool. I really hope your doing great and life is good...

Hello again, old friend.
:love:
If it is not too personal for you to share, would you consider telling us about the nature of the blinding flash and what it was that caused such a sea change in your perception? Why it meant what it did?

I will...I think I have around here somewhere...but it is a long story (more a testimonial), so give it time... Suffice it say for now that I realized I was doing exactly what the Bible vehemently warned about, and my life reflected it. I didn't like what I saw, nor really have any ground for what I was trying so hard to make true. Christ drew an uncompromisable line which singled Him out from any other religion we'd seen before, and I was trying to blur it; just like He said I would... A light went on and has just grown brighter and truer ever since. Some beliefs are absolutely incompatible. To think they could be all umbrella'd under some fluid, relative "Godness" took the very same blind faith I mocked Christians for. They are the odd man out. And they will soon know how we feel...

Regarding whatever has brought you back here again, I can only repeat that the internet is the internet: one site is as safe as any, and I know you have the thick skin to 'take' all manner of responses. I can only invite you to follow your inclination and if you feel tempted to share some thoughts here, you are most welcome to do so.

http://planetsmilies.net/angry-smiley-9407.gif -K.

Some have mentioned before how this forum is in flux. Certainly. For me also it is. Once a fit like the proverbial glove, this forum has lost most interest and appeal for me. This is my first post in a month. I do not know how much I will be back in future. I am not sure whether the forum changed or whether I did: both, probably.

I noticed.

Why your new found disinterest? The battle over? The methods questionable? The philosophy uninspiring? -I'm really interested...

As for sharing your personal stuff with the environment of your conversation in flux, well how is that much different from the rest of life?

Uhm, sorry, ya lost me...???

I am sure you are not the only conservative Christian who is gay, and while I can imagine how it might be difficult to find gay folks who share similar theology or similarly minded Christians who accept homosexuality or take you at your word for your personal truth, I also know you cannot be completely alone in this world. Not possible.

I know there are quite a few who share my cerebral dissonance and hold to a nonexistent middle ground that both pisses off Christians and gays. I'm not active and angry enough for most queers, and they feel betrayed by my support of Christianity; and I'm way to heretical and faithless for most Christians (whether they know I'm unapologetically gay or not)... but whaaah, po' po' pitiful me... I wouldn't change it if I could.

There are others more or less like you, though none else with your precise uniqueness. That is what makes you such a joy and treasure, at the same time that relating smoothly with you is for us, on occasion, a bit difficult. I wouldn't say that if I did not know how already aware you are of that element of our collective online 'friendship.'

I discovered I make one rotten cyber friend. Hot and cold, intimately concerned, then demonstrably aloof, and that is not fair to the types of people who are drawn to me and quickly seek virtual friendships (long stories too)

As far as 'relating smoothly'... heh heh heh... This is what Diane, the V.P. right hand madam and Queen moderator on CARM said to me a couple months ago (in a glaring, uber forbidden personal attack that dripped in hypocricy and power tripping) >

"Not only are you lacking common sense....I am convinced you should be hospitalized as borderline psychotic.....FACTS....I am about ready to remove several trolls from this forum, and YOU are the leader."

So the wrong way rub isn't limited to this site (see, I piss off both Christians and queers pretty equally)

I would focus on the fruits of your relationships with other people rather than on the specifics of their credo. If there are things you appreciate, love, enjoy, respect about certain folk, then enjoy them. Live life. Then, when you do meet someone who really has a philosophical/theological complementarity with yourself, what a precious, dear companion and confidante you shall have. Not everyone need be your closest intimate, nor need everyone be relegated to a distance.

I fear for people's souls Zerb. I see how false beliefs are causing great and unnecessary harm by the actions they inspire... I'm not seeking affirmations or companionship or extra heavenly crowns. I see a source of excess pain and a solution to it, and that compels me to try and address it with this little light o' mine. .. The venues I engage in are populated with people who typically want to get to the bottom of credos and belief systems, philosophy and theology, and how they play out in real life. This isn't the Jonas Brothers website

The internet is nearly a catalyst for an evolutionary leap. Nothing we've ever encountered will so fundamentally alter our lives and social structure, and we're just now getting a hint of what it going to do to us. "Awediot" is Dean turbo-charged, and I've been given medium, an audience of minds to feed from and influence and the capacity to change and be changed by strangers I will never meet... and then I log off and do what we do...

Anyway, feel yourself welcome.

Honestly, I don't. But I feel a purpose here for the time being, and that outweighs being liked... This is a way to see and analyze the agenda and motives and means of those I, and you, will be held guilty of by association... So is CARM to me... I'm not a marcher or protester or group prayer. I'm not a good hand on activist, so I seek out the leaders and think tank homes and suggestable members where they go to regroup... This is activism.

Daniel

06-23-2009, 07:24 PM

Are you disinclined because you do not like what the "Church" has done to the Gospel truth and do not want the baggage of the label? Or are you disinclined because you just really don't believe Jesus Christ was the begotten, singular Son of God who was sacrificed "for our sins", and resurrected in a miraculous triumph over death which paves the way for us?

Nope.

John 14:6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Is an ultimatum most of us decidedly do not like being cornered with.

Perhaps an ultimatum for you, but not for me. I don't see it that way.

My solution for awhile was to believe I had discovered the "Spirit" and collective Truth of "Godness" all religions were just expressing in their own, culturally lovely way... All roads lead to Rome like spokes on a wheel... I became not just a Christian, but a Buddhist, a Taoist, Hindu, and Jew who could embrace the inspiration for Odin, Thor, Schrodinger's Cat and the Flying Spaghetti Monster. They were all veneers. Everything and nothing was GOD, and realizing that was HimHerIt actualizing, manifesting from amoeba to Me, and you, and them (well not really the fundi type hold outs who kept preaching about falling and depravity and ruin of self-deification)... I hadn't abandon my childhood, dogmatic belief Jesus alone was the only Godman to walk the earth, I had recognized the Christ consciousness in all things and understood He was mostly just a symbol and pointer to our future selves... I was beyond being merely religious and over the boxing in of labels... I was part of God Itself.

Solutions. I have more questions than answers. And my burning need to have things figured out is a relic of my 20's. Right now I experience 'not knowing'. These two words probably mean something different to you. For me they mean doing something rather than moving the mental furniture around. I don't concern myself with belief per se. I don't find it to be helpful at all.

I didn't so much shun the title of Christian, I transcended it... Those who insisted I actually describe the "believe me alone or go to Hell" ultimatum Christ hacked us in two with, were beneath me fear mongerers who I had a duty to enlighten... then it came crashing down in a blinding flash that made more sense than I could stand... But thats just me.

I have to say that I don't concern myself with questions of how I fit in or not with conservative Christians, or Christianity for that matter. Perhaps that is a result of what I've learned from Buddhists. They aren't much concerned with what one calls oneself. They are more concerned, however, with what one does. And that seems a very practical and prescient frame of mind. What does one do? Many things. Among them, generating compassion, for one's self and for others.

I could have been born in Iran and be a Muslim right now. To me, that is more a reality than whether Jesus is the son of God and the ticket to heaven.

awediot

06-23-2009, 08:04 PM

See, we went there... not too painful, eh?

I'm not here to convert anyone, Daniel... http://www.websmileys.com/sm/violent/sterb249.gif

Daniel

06-23-2009, 09:11 PM

See, we went there... not too painful, eh?

A comment a therapist might make, absent the last four words.

awediot

06-23-2009, 10:52 PM

A comment a therapist might make, absent the last four words.

Been told a couple times I should be one; or see one... always in the same breath.

Zerbie

06-24-2009, 02:52 PM

There you are! I couldn't believe you hadn't posted in a month... I chalked it up your traveling (which I read a blurb about somewhere)... but guess not... You, Jen and Emproph (WHO'S BEEN IGNORING ME!!! http://www.clicksmilies.com/s1106/spezial/Fool/bur2.gif) Were the three I most wanted to see...so, cool. I really hope your doing great and life is good...

Thank you, old buddy. :love: Life is wonderful.

I will...I think I have around here somewhere...but it is a long story (more a testimonial), so give it time... Suffice it say for now that I realized I was doing exactly what the Bible vehemently warned about, and my life reflected it.

You were 'doing' what the Bible warned about???? :confused:

I didn't like what I saw,

Then I am glad you changed some things and found a path that is right for you.

I noticed.

Why your new found disinterest? The battle over? The methods questionable? The philosophy uninspiring? -I'm really interested...

No such things at all.

It is not my time to be here much, that is all. This is not a time for activism for me, nor is it much of a time for socialization. It is an inward time.

I know there are quite a few who share my cerebral dissonance and hold to a nonexistent middle ground that both pisses off Christians and gays. I'm not active and angry enough for most queers, and they feel betrayed by my support of Christianity; and I'm way to heretical and faithless for most Christians (whether they know I'm unapologetically gay or not)... but whaaah, po' po' pitiful me... I wouldn't change it if I could.

Nay, and ya should not.
However, I doubt "most" queers would really demand you be 'angry' (good heavens, what a useless way to be) or even to be politically active. It is a minority of LGBTs who are politically active. Cannot speak to the "Christian" side of the coin, I suppose it depends upon how narrowly you define "Christian," as there are thousands who consider themselves Christian who will stand up for their gay brothers like you.

I think you need to go out and meet some less polarized acquaintances. You have been hanging out with either a fairly far left crowd, or a quite far to the right crowd, and lamenting the dissonance. Most Americans are somewhere in the middle - get out of the apologist and activist communities for a few months and explore the variety of personalities in the middle.

I discovered I make one rotten cyber friend. Hot and cold, intimately concerned, then demonstrably aloof, and that is not fair to the types of people who are drawn to me and quickly seek virtual friendships (long stories too)

Also an accurate description of your associations -- you are drawn to the CARM religionists, to the angry atheists, to the far left crowd, in alternation. I believe you would find solace by balancing your life out with more of the middle crowd. The middle ground is not boring, Awediot, it is balanced.

Before I leave this conversation, I must add that I will never describe you as "rotten." You will cringe to read this, yes, but you are dear and lovable.
Yes, you are alternately hot and cold, etc., just as you write above. That has been your way, that's all. If you dislike it, then change it. Otherwise, accept it. Your friends already have.

As far as 'relating smoothly'... heh heh heh... This is what Diane, the V.P. right hand madam and Queen moderator on CARM said to me a couple months ago (in a glaring, uber forbidden personal attack that dripped in hypocricy and power tripping) >

"Not only are you lacking common sense....I am convinced you should be hospitalized as borderline psychotic.....FACTS....I am about ready to remove several trolls from this forum, and YOU are the leader."

This is very silly, and goes way beyond the bounds of online communication between strangers. A complete stranger cannot make a psychiatric diagnosis - online!
Dean, imo, that 'community' at CARM is not worth your time.

So the wrong way rub isn't limited to this site (see, I piss off both Christians and queers pretty equally)

Again, find the middle ground. It is larger than the two extremes where you have been spending so much of your time.

I see how false beliefs are causing great and unnecessary harm by the actions they inspire...

Yes.

Honestly, I don't. But I feel a purpose here for the time being, and that outweighs being liked... This is a way to see and analyze the agenda and motives and means of those I, and you, will be held guilty of by association... So is CARM to me... I'm not a marcher or protester or group prayer. I'm not a good hand on activist, so I seek out the leaders and think tank homes and suggestable members where they go to regroup... This is activism.

Let yourself be welcome here. Allow yourself that, Dean. You need not be relegated to the role of Outsider. You have people here who love you and would not seek to change you. Perhaps you also have at CARM.

Gennee

06-24-2009, 05:25 PM

Thanks for the reply Gennee.

One thing about Christians is they will first just say "yeah, I am...", as though they all know exactly what is being asked and do not have to initially think about the answer... Then they may elaborate and qualify on their affirmative...but the term itself is most importantly an affirmation that doesn't care what this world has done to, nor thinks about it...

~I am too... A rotten, freakishly conservative, hypocritical, way to nonjudgmental, reluctant and blessed Christian who chose to be so, no more than I chose to be gay... Sadly, I am disillusioned by the orthodox/fundamental church that are my brethren who I'm meant to know forever, and often feel shame at the association the label brings. There are more liberal, loving and understanding congregations who radiate spiritual fruits that the mainstream mostly just judges others by... Many refuse to even believe such creatures as us can exist. I am a heretic to them and I may darken their Churches door, but I cannot join, nor so much as break bread with them... I've told many "so don't call me a Christian..." It doesn't change what I believe or who I am...

I am torn between recoiling away from the gay community as I am from what passes as the Christian Organized Religion... I am...just trying to figure out SoulForce again... Who are they, and what do they want, and can I ever call them "we", as I used to feel like doing. ~That God has ensured my knowledge, belief and faith not hinge on men, is a gift I am barely beginning to let myself appreciate.

Awediot, Jesus would be repelled by what passes as 'Christianity' today. It was organized religion that was at odds with him and eventually killed him. I understand how you feel because I've many gay people who feel as you do.

If I know anything it's this; God loves :love: you as you are. I am a Christian who happens to be transgender. Two of the greatest events in my life were asking Jesus to come into my heart and coming out as a transgender person.

Awediot, it upsets me when the bible is used to bash gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender people. I have responded in op-eds and articles because I can't sit back and let it happen.

I will be praying that God will give you guidance during this time in your life. If you wish to PM me, feel free to do so.

Gennee
:love::love::pray::love::love:

baumgrenze

06-24-2009, 05:45 PM

hi John...it is nice to meet you... I'm 44, a strangely conservative, comfortably heretical Christian since I can remember, who happens to be gay...

~I've got a squirming can of worms I'm feeling compelled to open about and on this forum. It is clearly not a Christ centered site or discussion board (not that there's anything wrong with that)... I thought it was when I first came here, but found it to be more ecumenical, "Spiritual but not religious" and deeply entrenched in "New Age", polytheistic thought and hopes... (I could and will go on at some point...)

Not to steal away the dwindling membership (like, where is everybody?), but you may really enjoy GCN - The gay Christian network (http://www.gaychristian.net/index.php?) site and forum. It is much more geared toward the unique issues surrounding homosexuality and Christianity, and is not so much politically/activist motivated, as theologically and philosophically. (it is also much larger and more active) (I'm "Gamel" over there...and my real name is Dean)

~I'm happy to have met you, and even though a straight, 70 year old man can't really "get" the whole queer experience, your obvious empathy, open mindedness and under-appreciated wisdom will more than make up for the flaw of your heterosexuality http://planetsmilies.net/person-smiley-1326.gif...

I agree in principle, but have some block on petitioning for prayer chains and the like... Prayer is a very interesting topic in general... maybe a new thread on it specifically...

See ya around, and thanks for the http://www.clicksmilies.com/s1106/spezial/jasons_smilie/thumbsup.gif... AND mutual perspective... hope to see ya at GCN.

Dean,

Here are a few links you might want to explore. They involve Evangelicals Concerned Western Region (ECWR) and Evangelicals Concerned, Inc. If you've said where you live, I've lost track of that. ECWR has meetings in a few places on the west coast:

http://www.ecwr.org/ecwr-online-community/local-groups.html

There are currently groups meeting in Seattle, San Diego, Denver, and San Francisco-East Bay, and Pasadena. Once a year there is a general summer gathering; the 2009 Connection is in July:

http://www.ecwr.org/connection-2009/connection-2009-home-page.html

The original, parent organization in in New York:

http://www.ecinc.org/Calendar/eventcal.htm

EC in New York City conducts a weekly Bible study each Friday evening from 6:30 - 8:00 p.m.

They have a spring gathering. The one for 2009 took place in May.

http://www.ecinc.org/Connections.htm

If you do nothing else, open the home pages and look at the newsletters, etc. I think you could find like-minded people in this community. There is a forum, but it appears to have too small a quorum to be dynamic.

If it is in reach, you might consider showing up for one of the Connection gatherings. I still treasure the experience I had at the one in Tacoma in 1999. It worked for me, the flaw of my heterosexuality notwithstanding. Remember, I didn't chose it, it was a gift from God, just like your homosexuality. The Holy Spirit was present in a tangible way the whole time, but was overwhelmingly present at the chapel/communion service on Sunday morning.

God bless your walk with Him,

John

awediot

06-24-2009, 06:32 PM

First of all, I have to very much disagree with your statement that "Christians just say "yeah, I am...", as though they all know exactly what is being asked and do not have to initially think about the answer..."

"Are you a Christian? Please speak up." Should not be loaded question... It is a very simple one that of course anticipates the "define what you mean by Christian" response... I actually wanted to see how people would define their views of Christianity... Most Christians I know would give a simple, maybe refined "yes", and then them self elaborate a bit on what that meant to them

I was born and baptised into the Roman Catholic Church, long, long before I came out as a lesbian. I do not believe you can generalize the way you did about Christians. We're all very different, depending on our upbringing and our specific "brand" of Christianity. What gives you the right to "define a Christian"? Someone said depends on my definition, and so I told them what it was, expecting it to be taken as my own personal opinion on the matter, not an official, from on high revelation.

My definition was:

"Typically a Christians believes in the one of a kind divine nature of Jesus Christ, that His death was the sacrifice we can accept as the price owed for our sins, making Him "The Savior", that He rose from the grave, ascending to His Father's (God's) side, and that He will return as Lord over the new Earth."

Is that radically different from the basic understanding of what defines us a Christians? ...of course their are differences and variations on the theme, but "Jesus was a good guy" we both know doesn't cut it.

That sounds like what Falwell and his ilk do. And why think from a perspective of "we/they"? By your very definition you've excluded Mel White, our founder, who defines himself as a follower of a Jewish carpenter, and has a very hard time with calling himself a Christian. Why the need to exclude? Doesn't the world have enough exclusion already? I'm interested in who calls them self a Christian around here because we will have certain things in common and share a perspective... By all means critique my definition, but please don't presume to know my motives or goals... I have a difficult time being associated with "Christians" to. I can explain why in a sentence or two... If people are divided and "excluded" on theological lines, talking about it is the adult, edifying thing to do. It isn't exclusionary, it is just discussion.

I've been part of Soulforce from the beginning, and we've always striven to be a multi-faith organization. It was predominantly Christian, but never solely Christian. I'm always grateful to my non-Christian friends for teaching me to be more inclusive in my thinking. Now thanks to them, I end my prayers with, "we pray this in your many names."

I'm an out lesbian at my parish and I preach, so I'm still Catholic because I've found a really welcoming community. If I hadn't, who knows..... While I am still a follower of that Jewish carpenter, there is much within the Christian churches that I find abhorent and do not support. It is this ecumenical vision I am curious about... Is pantheism the driving philosophy and "religion" governing this site and SoulForce's actions? ~As a Christian, that is an incompatible and false belief I not only cannot support, but am called upon to oppose... Just because I have issues with many Christians and what passes for the Church these days, does not mean I have those same ones with God. I understand why we were warned away from false teachings, and know that the all inclusive, Universalist philosophy is okay as a social club or dinner party, but as a motivator for changing the world, it was clearly and blatently described as in opposition to the one true God... It's pretty much Bible 101.

At 72, I've come to understand that there is no black, no white, but various greys that reflect the diversity of the world.

KaraAbsurd... Are you advocating moral relativism?

bnmoore

06-25-2009, 02:24 AM

They are more concerned, however, with what one does. And that seems a very practical and prescient frame of mind. What does one do? Many things. Among them, generating compassion, for one's self and for others.

Perhaps that is what Jesus (as teacher) meant by many of the sayings attributed to him.

I could have been born in Iran and be a Muslim right now. To me, that is more a reality than whether Jesus is the son of God and the ticket to heaven.

The Qu'ran itself contains stories of divine origin. Consider Ghaflah as a Buddhist concept. (Apply it to anyone and everyone.)

Ben N. Moore

bnmoore

06-25-2009, 02:38 AM

"
Absurd... Are you advocating moral relativism?

Aren't you?

Judeo-Christian morality is RELATIVE to the Judeo-Christian faith.

Some of us aren't following that one but we're not calling you wrong.

If the Kingdon of Heaven is within you why look someplace else?

I'll just go along with Jesus and let it be done unto me as I believe.

How big is your Infinite?

Ben N. Moore

awediot

06-25-2009, 02:42 AM

Aren't you?

Judeo-Christian morality is RELATIVE to the Judeo-Christian faith.

Some of us aren't following that one but we're not calling you wrong.

If the Kingdon of Heaven is within you why look someplace else?

I'll just go along with Jesus and let it be done unto me as I believe.

How big is your Infinite?

Ben N. Moore

No black or white?

Please, give me an example where raping a woman or abusing a child isn't black...

Zerbie

06-25-2009, 10:09 AM

((((((( Dean )))))))

{{{{{{{{{ Dean }}}}}}}}}
:'(:love:

awediot

06-25-2009, 02:01 PM

((((((( Dean )))))))

{{{{{{{{{ Dean }}}}}}}}}
:'(:love:

What?

A hug in lieu of an answer is just condescending.

bnmoore

06-26-2009, 02:04 AM

No black or white?
Please, give me an example where raping a woman or abusing a child isn't black...

I'm pretty sure that has nothing to do with what Kara was saying so I'll skip it. In my opinion you are guilty of the same moral relativism that you're accusing Kara of. Others may feel differently including you.

I freely admit I have an attitude problem with any homo (Male/Female) that would call themselves conservative.

I don't love you any less. I just don't want anything to do with you.

Alright queen?

Ben N. Moore

awediot

06-26-2009, 02:13 AM

I'm pretty sure that has nothing to do with what Kara was saying so I'll skip it. In my opinion you are guilty of the same moral relativism that you're accusing Kara of. Others may feel differently including you.

I freely admit I have an attitude problem with any homo (Male/Female) that would call themselves conservative.

I don't love you any less. I just don't want anything to do with you.

Alright queen?

Ben N. Moore

Kara is free to clarify if she'd like...

Interesting definition of "love" you must have...

bnmoore

06-26-2009, 02:27 AM

Kara is free to clarify if she'd like...

Interesting definition of "love" you must have...

I said that I have a problem. I own it, it's mine. If I catch myself getting judgemental and conditional then I need to back off or just opt out.

Peace.

Ben N. Moore

awediot

06-26-2009, 02:39 AM

I said that I have a problem. I own it, it's mine. If I catch myself getting judgemental and conditional then I need to back off or just opt out.

Peace.

Ben N. Moore

"Studying for the ministry in my chosen faith."... Ben N. More

" ...I just don't want anything to do with you." ... Ben N. More

I understand the conflict I represent to people...especially passionate, activist types...and I know the defensive mechanisms well... You probably have as stereotypical view of me, as "conservatives" do of you...

Rise above it...

bnmoore

06-26-2009, 03:14 AM

"Studying for the ministry in my chosen faith."... Ben N. Moore

And you would be welcome at our center. We're not Christians although the services follow a similar format.

" ...I just don't want anything to do with you." ... Ben N. Moore...and Heaven knows no favorites. I acknowledge that you are made of the same thing, in the same image and likeness as everyone else.

The only thing I can say is Namaste.

Ben N. Moore

wmanion

06-26-2009, 03:18 AM

I for one, do not call my self a christian. Do I believe Jesus went to the cross? Yes. Do I believe that Jesus wants me to call myself a Christian? No. I am not saying those that do are wrong for doing so. However, Jesus never said follow me and call yourself Christian. Christian was a label that his followers took upon themselves to call themselves. Jesus also never said, Go out and build massive buildings and call them churches and come there to worship. His concept of the church was an invisible body of believers that gathered together to worship him and learn in their homes, on the streets, but not in any building that cost so much that it could have fed ten families for many years. How big is God. Is it possible for God to reveal himself as Jesus to the Jews, as a different figure to the Muslims, to yet another figure or figures to the American Indian, and still as another figure to a remote African tribe that had never heard of a Messiah or a Jesus. My thoughts on that is YES HE CAN! We become so rigid in out beliefs that we don't allow for God to meet the needs of different societies and people at their point of need and within their own understanding. No one can tell me that God did not reach out to all the world, and no one can tell me that only the Jewish people were privy to a God of Love and everyone else was wrong and doomed to an eternal hell without even hearing of a Messiah. Wouldn't this be completely opposite of God as a loving God, who is not a respecter of persons. Yes, Jesus said he is the way the truth and the life and that no man comes to the father but by him. But can you say with any kind of a certainty that Jesus isn't
multifaceted and revealed himself to other cultures by a different name?
I am not vain enough to think that!

Bill

awediot

06-26-2009, 03:26 AM

And you would be welcome at our center. We're not Christians although the services follow a similar format.

...and Heaven knows no favorites. I acknowledge that you are made of the same thing, in the same image and likeness as everyone else.

The only thing I can say is Namaste.

Ben N. Moore

Then why would you say " ...I just don't want anything to do with you." ?

~To be honest, I ask this to try to trigger YOUR thoughts, not get an explanation... It's a cold thing to say as a representative of any spiritual ministry that claims I'd be welcome.

It sounds oddly...familiar.

awediot

06-26-2009, 03:32 AM

bnmoore

06-26-2009, 04:02 AM

Then why would you say " ...I just don't want anything to do with you." ?

Because I was angry. It happens sometimes. I'm not angry now.

It sounded familiar to me as well. Sorry about that.

FYI. I'm not here to represent the SLCA. I'm here because I choose to be.

I thought I might find a community working for a common good.

Ben N. Moore

keltic63

06-26-2009, 06:02 AM

Now would be a good time to remind everyone to treat each other with respect. We do not have to agree, but we do not have to hurt each other intentionally. Please do not bait each other with loaded questions, and do not reply with a personal attack when disagreeing with the content of the post.

Daniel

06-26-2009, 07:01 AM

The Qu'ran itself contains stories of divine origin. Consider Ghaflah as a Buddhist concept. (Apply it to anyone and everyone.)

I don't think we've met here as yet.

Thanks for the word in bold above. I confess that I do not know the Qu'ran, or the Muslim faith very well. I'm glad to know that this concept.

Ghaflah (غفلة) is the Arabic word for negligence, heedlessness. In Islamic context, it is the sin of forgetting Allah and one's divine origins, or being indifferent of these.

Speaking of words, you used the greeting "namaste" earlier in this thread, which is an expression of the concept, is it not? That is, seeing the divine in another despite appearances and/or actions. I could agree more with the intent.

andrewlittle

06-26-2009, 10:27 AM

Hello, Awediot. Welcome back. I don't really know you, nor you me, but I followed your posts quite avidly while on CARM. More about that later.

I am a christian - I am not a Christian. I make a distinction between the two that is purely my own.

As a christian, I hold to most of the tenets of faith of christianity, but disagree on some very important ones. I prefer to think of myself as a follower of the message of Christ. If I were a Christian, I am afraid I would spend more time worrying about my badge of honor and claim to righteousness than the message of Christ.

One of the tenets I have a problem with is that my salvation is dependent on Jesus' death on the cross. I believe that salvation was essentially intertwined with the message of God in the person of Jesus (who is the Christ). Salvation is to be found in hearing and following the message and teachings.

Jesus went against the religious heirarchy of his time and paid with his life. I think God could have stopped this, but was compelled to let free will reign. Christ, therefore, did not "buy" my salvation, nor die for it. Christ lived for it by living the very message he brought and by being willing to die for the integrity of that message.

Anyway, that's just one area of orthodoxy that I find troubling. As with any issue of faith, it will be problematic from a logical point of view. I don't think, when it comes to faith, that there is a dichotomous logical/illogical condition. Some things simply defy logic, and faith is one of them. It somehow resides in a no-man's land of ill definition.

Now, as to CARM. You, sir, have a mind as big as all outdoors. You are cerebral almost to a fault - I did say almost. You are not subtle (by a long shot) but do deal in nuances that I think evade the average person. When they become aware that they cannot follow your logic and understand, never mind counteract it, the next best thing is to become verbally violent. What ensues is a lot of chest beating and the projection of a totemic God - theirs being the bigger and more powerful one that has imbued them with absolute knowledge that you are a charleton and heretic. Ignorance seems to prove itself out most of the time.

Anyway, I for one enjoyed your posts, such that I could follow them.

bnmoore

06-26-2009, 11:56 PM

I don't think we've met here as yet.

Thanks for the word in bold above. I confess that I do not know the Qu'ran, or the Muslim faith very well. I'm glad to know that this concept.

Speaking of words, you used the greeting "namaste" earlier in this thread, which is an expression of the concept, is it not? That is, seeing the divine in another despite appearances and/or actions. I could agree more with the intent.

I've seen around a dozen or more interpretations or definitions for Namaste. I haven't found one I wouldn't agree with yet. Some are more formal than others. If you have an "It's All God" philosophy it works fine without defining what it might be.

Do you know of Hafiz the Sufi poet? http://peacefulrivers.homestead.com/Hafiz.html#anchor_16035

It always smacks me right square in the heart.

Ben N. Moore

Daniel

06-27-2009, 01:08 AM

I've seen around a dozen or more interpretations or definitions for Namaste. I haven't found one I wouldn't agree with yet. Some are more formal than others. If you have an "It's All God" philosophy it works fine without defining what it might be.

Do you know of Hafiz the Sufi poet? http://peacefulrivers.homestead.com/Hafiz.html#anchor_16035

It always smacks me right square in the heart.

Ben N. Moore

Thank you for the link. I am more acquainted with the poetry of Rumi that I am of Hafiz. Think I started a thread about him here. You are right. This kind of expression does touch the heart. Speaking of which, a Tibetan heart practice (please forgive the lateral slipping of my mind!), Tonglen, has been my mainstay for a while now. It has helped me deal with some hard times. And for that I am very grateful.

Good stuff- poetry and matters of the heart.

I bow to the Light within you.

awediot

06-27-2009, 04:24 AM

Hello, Awediot. Welcome back. I don't really know you, nor you me, but I followed your posts quite avidly while on CARM. More about that later.

Hi andrew...You strike me as familiar, and my apologies if the old memory may need jarred a little more... It's great to -re meet you. (avidly?) http://www.clicksmilies.com/s1106/spezial/Fool/smile.gifThere have been a few cross-over posters between the two places...I'd like to hear more later. That place is the antithesis of here. But also much more alike than I think either want to admit.

I am a christian - I am not a Christian. I make a distinction between the two that is purely my own.

As a christian, I hold to most of the tenets of faith of christianity, but disagree on some very important ones. I prefer to think of myself as a follower of the message of Christ. If I were a Christian, I am afraid I would spend more time worrying about my badge of honor and claim to righteousness than the message of Christ.

One of the tenets I have a problem with is that my salvation is dependent on Jesus' death on the cross. I believe that salvation was essentially intertwined with the message of God in the person of Jesus (who is the Christ). Salvation is to be found in hearing and following the message and teachings.

Jesus went against the religious heirarchy of his time and paid with his life. I think God could have stopped this, but was compelled to let free will reign. Christ, therefore, did not "buy" my salvation, nor die for it. Christ lived for it by living the very message he brought and by being willing to die for the integrity of that message.Romans 1:20
20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities his eternal power and divine nature have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

-Does rather challenge the idea that only Christ and the Gospesl are the only way to Truth

Job 12:7-10
7But ask now the beasts, and they shall teach thee; and the fowls of the air, and they shall tell thee:
8Or speak to the earth, and it shall teach thee: and the fishes of the sea shall declare unto thee.
9Who knoweth not in all these that the hand of the LORD hath wrought this?
10In whose hand is the soul of every living thing, and the breath of all mankind.

...is an almost gently taunting dare to claim you've never seen it...Like even animals get it. It's abstractly true enough that we each just fill in the gaps to a natural understanding of what it's basically getting at...

We all agree it is hard to express.

John 21:25.
"...there are many other things which Jesus did; were every one of them to be written, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written."

-The Bible itself opens the door for for The "Spirit" and message of Christ and mere "Christianity", and even theism in general, to do it's job in ways we simply may not recognize if not as star spangled as western tradition has predicted it.

For me, the Bible and the words of Jesus are the Myths come true. He crossed the line between archetype Messiah, Savior and Deity manifest legends and religions were built on, and recorded history... He essentially told us He was, and we've been dealing with the impact of His influence ever since... The Bible is the best explanation IMO...But it is not perfect, and it requires interpretation and discernment...

Anyway, that's just one area of orthodoxy that I find troubling. As with any issue of faith, it will be problematic from a logical point of view. I don't think, when it comes to faith, that there is a dichotomous logical/illogical condition. Some things simply defy logic, and faith is one of them. It somehow resides in a no-man's land of ill definition.

When we believe in something without proof of it, the gap is jumped over with a leap faith...in either direction... It'd seem to boil down to what we do not have the emperical knowledge of having seen it ourselves, then technically we can not prove even to ourselves that it is hard knowledge we KNOW for a Fact...

That's a big thing... I believe that thing that used to be called planet "Pluto" exists, but not absolutely Know it... I trust in the sources which offer convincing evidence that I can deem as "proof enough" to let my "know" things about it. I place my "faith" in them, their tools, and results when we act on their influence... Faith is a more a forest for the trees thing that is so prevasive it is hard to see. I'ts pretty scary to segregate all the stuff we really do not know for certain from what we've witnessed first hand... It depends on if we do, or should..or have to, care about them.

Now, as to CARM. You, sir, have a mind as big as all outdoors. You are cerebral almost to a fault - I did say almost. You are not subtle (by a long shot) but do deal in nuances that I think evade the average person. When they become aware that they cannot follow your logic and understand, never mind counteract it, the next best thing is to become verbally violent. What ensues is a lot of chest beating and the projection of a totemic God - theirs being the bigger and more powerful one that has imbued them with absolute knowledge that you are a charleton and heretic. Ignorance seems to prove itself out most of the time.

Anyway, I for one enjoyed your posts, such that I could follow them.

Thank you... A lot of overlapping and sort of streamy, off-shoot thoughts pack themselves into my posts. Occasionally I'll look back later and wonder exactly where this or that came from...so I sorta know how i sound... But, since I tend to try more to get people to thinking, to jar them out of their comfort zone, than to tell them what they need to be doing or believe, just as I expect them to do the same for me, that somehow influences my style. You gotta first catch people's precious attention these days...

And only infants, the truly infantile and innocents are ignorant... They couldn't post on a site like this.

-appreciated the nice and intriguing reply, andrewl. I look forward to chatting...

Eugene

06-27-2009, 08:08 AM

Please do not bait each other with loaded questions

Does that mean the title question of this thread?

I've been posting on CARM lately, too. Can't decide whether a gay Christian causes more problems for mainstream gays or for evangelicals.

tvmt

06-27-2009, 12:35 PM

First of all, I have to very much disagree with your statement that "Christians just say "yeah, I am...", as though they all know exactly what is being asked and do not have to initially think about the answer..."

I was born and baptised into the Roman Catholic Church, long, long before I came out as a lesbian. I do not believe you can generalize the way you did about Christians. We're all very different, depending on our upbringing and our specific "brand" of Christianity. What gives you the right to "define a Christian"? That sounds like what Falwell and his ilk do. And why think from a perspective of "we/they"? By your very definition you've excluded Mel White, our founder, who defines himself as a follower of a Jewish carpenter, and has a very hard time with calling himself a Christian. Why the need to exclude? Doesn't the world have enough exclusion already?

I've been part of Soulforce from the beginning, and we've always striven to be a multi-faith organization. It was predominantly Christian, but never solely Christian. I'm always grateful to my non-Christian friends for teaching me to be more inclusive in my thinking. Now thanks to them, I end my prayers with, "we pray this in your many names."

I'm an out lesbian at my parish and I preach, so I'm still Catholic because I've found a really welcoming community. If I hadn't, who knows..... While I am still a follower of that Jewish carpenter, there is much within the Christian churches that I find abhorent and do not support.

At 72, I've come to understand that there is no black, no white, but various greys that reflect the diversity of the world.

Kara

excellent! like what you said kara. :dove:

baumgrenze

06-27-2009, 05:58 PM

i didn't say that i disbelieved that Christ is the Savior, only with the doctrine of substitutionary atonement, specifically the idea of penal substitution.

Christus Victor, from Theopedia:

These might seem like really tiny theological differences, but i see them as increasingly divergent. The Eastern Orthodox Church still maintains a ransom/Christus Victor stance, though the Western church relegated it into the background around the time of the great East/West Schism.

On the 23d I thanked nmwolfboy for his lesson in theology. Like any good chemist, I went off to do research. I found something I think others might appreciate. Be patient, it is long, but it is interesting teaching. Take a look at:

http://sharktacos.com/God/cross_intro.shtml

and follow the several sections of the website. I've read that Derek Flood, the author, it thinking about publishing this material as a small book. See if you don't think we should encourage him to do so.

John

turquoise

07-08-2009, 11:21 PM

thanks for letting me - us know about the gay christian network - i just looked it up and it looks interesting. And yes, I am a christian - a christ follower, a jesus lover, a servant of our lord

awediot

07-09-2009, 01:14 AM

thanks for letting me - us know about the gay christian network - i just looked it up and it looks interesting. And yes, I am a christian - a christ follower, a jesus lover, a servant of our lord

You bet... I Really hope to see you there. You'd enjoy it. :)

coavonia73

10-25-2009, 03:33 AM

The ALL mentioned in 1 Cor. 1 is referring to ALL Christians who HAVE CALLED on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and been born-again. We don't "make" Jesus Lord of our lives----He IS the Lord no matter what we do--some need to be chastened more than others---but everyone who is truly saved WILL BE chastened. The point is that the Lord WILL CONFIRM TO THE END "ALL" who are saved---not just some. That's the point I am emphasizing.

--Joe

Daniel

10-25-2009, 08:22 AM

First you get beaten and then you get confirmed! Some more than others?

Now there's a pretty thought.

Just the sort of Christ to follow. First he beats you and then tells you he loves you. Sounds like a guy who needs an anger management class.

Emproph

10-26-2009, 01:08 AM

dsdrane

10-26-2009, 09:07 PM

Normally, I would hesitate to assign "tone" to the original question of this thread. I have no need to hesitate here, however.

Whereas it is true that Mel White is a Christian and King was a Christian, Gandhi was not, and (with the exception of an image of King paired with Gandhi's in the site's masthead) there is no mention of "Christianity" per se in the call to action: Freedom for lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender people from religious and political violence through the practice of relentless nonviolent resistance.

To have assumed otherwise, betrays anything from an inattention to detail to a potentially malicious Christo-centrism.

Ironically, I first came to this site after Googling "gay" and "christian". I found GCN through the same search. I ultimately left GCN because I became uncomfortable with a) the degree of closetedness, b) the "Side B-ers", and c) the site's stated "beliefs". The site is, in essence, a "church" -- and not one to which I wanted to belong. I also felt uncomfortable with the lack of non-Christians, though I could hardly fault them for this; there is a "C" in "GCN". Regardless, it felt constricting and I was done. On the other hand, I've stayed (to varying degrees over time) with SF precisely because we are a mixed bag. Frankly, I wouldn't mind if I were the only Christian here, as long we were still focusing on the religious and political oppression of gay people.

To ask "are there any Christians on this site anymore" is to suggest a) there were Christians here, b) there is now a lack of them, and c) this is something to be lamented. In short, the question is ipso facto offensive and should be recognized as well as decried as such.

LesBePure

10-29-2009, 07:58 PM

I am blessed to accept the label of Christian - Christ follower - not a religious person though. I am sad by those who try to claim the title of Christian and yet preach hate, religion and man's twisted theology.

antiochian

10-30-2009, 08:18 AM

I am not a Christian, and I am sick of gay friends giving me a hard time about my religious beliefs. Even in gatherings at the local LGBT center, the leaders tend to assume that everyone there is Christian, or at least monotheistic. Not everyone believes the same things, just as not everyone loves the same way.

u-dog

10-30-2009, 11:11 AM

and I'm still here. :)

Pablo is a Christian but he's buried under a snow drift right now.

HEY PABLO!! YOU OK??

keltic63

10-30-2009, 01:35 PM

I used to be a christian, but I gave it up for Lent.

dsdrane

10-30-2009, 02:52 PM

I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.

I came to the conclusion long ago … that all religions were true and also that all had some error in them, and whilst I hold by my own, I should hold others as dear as Hinduism. So we can only pray, if we are Hindus, not that a Christian should become a Hindu … But our innermost prayer should be a Hindu should be a better Hindu, a Muslim a better Muslim, a Christian a better Christian.

I consider western Christianity in its practical working a negation of Christ’s Christianity.

I confess I agree. I also confess that I am a reluctant Christian. I spent most of my adult life (up to a few years ago) actively shunning Christianity (especially, but also all religion). The Church ended up making me an offer I couldn't refuse. When God calls, it's simply rude not to obey. This "invitation" came to me within a certain culture, within a certain society, within a certain family with certain traditions. I did not choose Christianity over other religions; rather God invited me via the Christian Church. I accepted him there, but I did so fully convinced that God was ok with the fact that I didn't believe for one second that I was embarking on the one, true path. He knows that I embarked on the path in front of me, and I fully expect to see my Jewish, Hindu, etc. co-travelers in "heaven".

This sounds passive, but it is not. I'm perfectly comfortable thinking of the Almighty in the triune tradition of my church. And I'm perfectly comfortable looking to the Christ to teach and guide me. I find the story engaging and the liturgy enriching. It matters more to me that Christian theology brings me to the truth; I don't require it to be the truth itself.

I'll end with more Ghandi.

I worship God as Truth only. I have not yet found Him, but I am seeking after Him.

Daniel

10-30-2009, 06:24 PM

My religion is kindness- Dalai Lama

Makes sense to me.

Dink63

10-30-2009, 11:03 PM

I'm new to this forum...but certainly not new to embracing my sexuality & have found a way that works (most of the time) for me to continue to practice the faith that I was raised in (Roman Catholic). At 46, I find myself often questioning everything that organized religions teach. It is a process for me that ebbs & flows, depending on where my head is at any given moment. I recently had a heart-to-heart with my mother about how I sometimes feel like a fraud, in that I am "God-father" to one of my nieces & one of my nephews....since I find myself reluctant to actively participate in all of the Sacraments. I explained to Mom that I believe that God knows my heart & He/She forgives me for my "sins" without needing to fully participate in confession (which is now called "Reconciliation".)

I realize that the official teachings of the Catholic faith embraces us LGBT folks...as long as we do not "practice" our sexuality. Since I believe that my sexuality is exactly how I was created, I guess that makes me a "cafeteria catholic"....I pick & choose what works best for me & skip past the rest.

Pablo Rafael

11-02-2009, 09:18 AM

Pablo is a Christian but he's buried under a snow drift right now.

HEY PABLO!! YOU OK??

I am doing quite fine. The snow drift has melted enough for me to poke my head out.

I haven't been around the forums much lately. Most of my online time anymore seems to be emailing the boyfriend. I know, I know....everyone feels for me. It is a tough life. :rainbow:

I refuse to let the fundamentalists take possession of the term "Christian". I am happy to be a Christian. I am also very certain to let people know that the right wing fundamentalists do not represent the Christianity that I see shown to us through the grace of God.

I had someone talk to me about her lesbian daughter. She said that the daughter was unable to find a church where she was accepted. That puzled me a little. I have been warmly welcomed in both the Catholic church and the Episcopal church (where I am a member). There is no reason that one needs to choose between being gay and being Christian. The two go together quite wonderfully.

But I must run...the boyfriend needs another email. :D

bnmoore

11-02-2009, 11:21 AM

But I must run...the boyfriend needs another email. :D

Enabler!

Just kidding. I met a couple yesterday having a long distance relationship. One's in Atlanta, the other in New York City.

scott snedeker

11-03-2009, 02:53 AM

For the purpose of Discussion I would propose Establishing a Definition for each:

Christian- A follower of Church leader who believes in the leader's and intstitution's teachings. This paradigm is based on their interpretataion of selected verses in the Old and New Testament that they feel are appropriate while eschewing inappropriate ones that contradict their paradigm.

The capital"C " denotes a proprietory status claimed by the institution of their own discipline of thought with its belief that it speaks for Christ and possesses the Divine Authority to reward or condemn as His proxy.

To be a Christian you must agree with the intstitution's position. Inclusion or exclusion is at their discretion based on their definition and their set of rules that they carefully selected from scripture; either comply or you are not a "Christian ."

christian- One who believes that Christ is the divine son of God as defined in the Old Testament. A christian follows Christ's Teaching through his/her own interpretation as opposed to following an institutional interpretation even through he/she may attend a church. The small case "c" denotes the absence of a proprietory claim to speak for Christ as His proxy.

non-chistian follower of Christ's teaching- One who believes Christ was as human as anyone with a special genius who could see love in every being. Often seen as a contemporary of Buddha

Pagan- Pre-Roman spirtual practice of Europe largely nature-based revived in modern day. Two major types of paganism today are Wiccan and Druidic

Wicca was popularised in 1954 by Gerald Gardner, a retired British civil servant, who at the time called it a "Witch cult" and "Witchcraft", and its adherents "the Wica".

Wiccans, as followers of Wicca are now commonly known, typically worship a Goddess and the Horned God, who are sometimes represented as being a part of a greater pantheistic Godhead. Other characteristics of Wicca include the ritual use of magic, a basic code of morality, and the celebration of eight seasonally based festivals.

Druidism is a form of modern spirituality or religion that generally promotes harmony and worship of nature, and respect for all beings, including the environment. it is considered to be a philosophical movement that includes religious tolerance, allowing its followers to be adherents of other religions, or to be atheists. Druids believe that all living things have awareness and are connected through an awareness (animism and hylozoism) Druids often honor appreciation of nature's magnificence with sex. :D

Helpful or too biased?

I added the pagan definitions for balance

dsdrane

11-03-2009, 07:06 AM

Reply pending...must wait for head to stop spinning.:eek:

Rick336

11-03-2009, 11:44 AM

There are also these religions: ( From the Handbook of World Religions)

The Aetherius Society - They believe Jesus is a cosmic master, sent to earth to offer help, a great moral, wise teacher in the line of Krishna and Buddah, and that he returned in 1958 in undisguised splendor.

They believe mankind is out of karmic balance and needs to evolve quickly to save itself and the earth from a host of problems.

They believe aliens have come to earth and live among us on higher planes of existence.

Jehovah's Witness - They believe Jesus Christ is not eternal and not Almighty God; Jesus is the first creation of Jehovah. Before his incarnation, Jesus was Michael, the archangel, through whom Jehovah made the universe.

They believe Satan and his wicked angels were banished from heaven in 1914 - which explains why life on earth has been so terrible since then.

They believe that only 144,000 will go to heaven and that everyone else will remain on earth and must obey God perfectly for 1,000 years or be annihilated.

Mormonism - They believe Jesus is a separate being from God the father and was created from a sexual union between Mary and Elohim (a resurrected being from another planet). They believe that Jesus and Satan were brothers. When Jesus was selected to be the savior of the world, Satan rebelled, initiating a great holy war in heaven. As punishment, the Heavenly Father decreed that Satan would never have a human body.

They believe Native Americans are descendants of Jews, "the Lost tribes of Israel," that migrated to America in 600 BC. After Jesus was resurrected, he traveled to Missouri and appeared to the Native Americans and tried to revive the heavenly father's plan on golden plates but never enacted. The Native Americans had failed as their Hebrew ancestors had done, thus setting the stage for the renewal of God's perfect plan through Joseph Smith.

Scientology - They do not acknowledge God of the Bible. They believe that through "auditing," a process of clearing by using E-meters, Auditors can detect areas of wrong thinking in a person. Then through drills, disciplines, and counseling, one is believed to be able to erase engrams (mental images of an experience containing pain, unconsciousness and a real or fancied threat to survival) from the mind. Critics claim the church charges excessive amounts of money to do this.

According to a website about Scientology, Scientology founded L. Ron Hubbard writes that, 75 million years ago, the head of the Galactic Federation, made up of 76 planets, was a being named Xenu. Faced with an overpopulation problem, he brought beings to this planet, blew them up with hydrogen bombs, and packaged them. Their spirits now infest our bodies: he says "One's body is a mass of individual thetans stuck to oneself or to the body." Scientologists at this level try to rid themselves of these thetans (spirits) by helping each one to remember the painful experiences of being blown up like that.

The Xenu story is part of the Church of Scientology's secret "Advanced Technology", normally only revealed to members who have already contributed large amounts of money.

Hare Krishna - Iskcon - They believe Jesus was a teacher who taught his people to meditate. Their God is Krishna who lives within all. The most significant belief/practice of Krishnas is the practice of chanting the Krishna mantra: "Hare Krishna Hare Krishna Krishna Krishna Hare Hare Hare Hare Rama Hare Rama Rama Rama Hare Hare," to rid oneself from material dirt and bad karma.

Rastafarianism - They believe that Jesus was an incarnation of Jah, who was black, not white. They believe that marijuana is the "wisdom weed" and that smoking it is a holy sacrament supported by Genesis 3:18, Exodus 10:12, and Psalm 104:14. Author Leonard Barrett writes: "The herb is the key to new understanding of the self, the universe, and God. It is the vehicle to cosmic consciousness."

I'm beginning to suspect that all of the above religious beliefs are the result of smoking weed.

And lots of it.

Rick

dsdrane

11-03-2009, 12:40 PM

For the purpose of Discussion I would propose Establishing a Definition for each:

Christian- A follower of Church leader who believes in the leader's and intstitution's teachings. This paradigm is based on their interpretataion of selected verses in the Old and New Testament that they feel are appropriate while eschewing inappropriate ones that contradict their paradigm.

The capital"C " denotes a proprietory status claimed by the institution of their own discipline of thought with its belief that it speaks for Christ and possesses the Divine Authority to reward or condemn as His proxy.

To be a Christian you must agree with the intstitution's position. Inclusion or exclusion is at their discretion based on their definition and their set of rules that they carefully selected from scripture; either comply or you are not a "Christian ."

christian- One who believes that Christ is the divine son of God as defined in the Old Testament. A christian follows Christ's Teaching through his/her own interpretation as opposed to following an institutional interpretation even through he/she may attend a church. The small case "c" denotes the absence of a proprietory claim to speak for Christ as His proxy.

I'm at somewhat of a loss to critique, however, because I'm not really sure I understand exactly what you mean with the above. That said, I'll give it a whirl....

"Christians" have one uniting concept upon which they can all agree (I think!): Jesus of Nazareth is the Messiah/the Christ sent by God as foretold in the Old Testament; and, having been sent by God, was both fully human and fully divine (or God incarnate). By his death, resurrection and ascension, he atones for the sins of the world and makes possible the reconciliation of God and Creation.

What this means exactly in terms of theology, history, liturgy, etc., as well as interpreting Jesus' life, teachings, and ministry prior to his crucifixion, is where "Christians" take different paths. Check out an interesting graphic here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:ChristianityBranches.svg).

Ultimately, whether Catholic, Orthodox or Protestant, it's the individual who decides their relationship with "Christianity". Indeed, the absolute height of hypocrisy is when one Christian has the chutzpah to accuse another of "cafeteria Christianity". Christians all have to choose in one way or another what being a Christian means specifically to them and in their lives. Sure, a particular church may show you the door if you don't measure up, but another will welcome you in.

In the end, the only judge that matters is God.

scott snedeker

11-03-2009, 03:44 PM

Reply pending...must wait for head to stop spinning.:eek:

I am curious as to why your head is spinning. I thought that distinguishing between someone claiming to be speaking as Christ's proxy and someone with metaphysical belief in Christ but does not claim to be his proxy was clear.

I'm beginning to suspect that all of the above religious beliefs are the result of smoking weed.

And lots of it.

Rick

I agree with you, Rick. All of these religions are metaphysical paradigms that are created by humans. It is easy to point out how inconsistent and chimerical they appear when contrasted to modern thinking. I would like to use a scientific metaphor:

Basic Chemisrty:

Na+ OH- + H+ Cl- -------> Na+Cl- + H2O

This is a tool using the "Octet-Valent" Model to predict the outcome of a chemical reaction between sodium hydroxide and Hydrochloric acid producing sodium chloride (salt) and water

Now no one today really thinks a sodium hydroxide molecule is shaped like a capital "N" subcase "a" with 2 dots on all four sides of it.

But the model is useful to predict the result of mixing these two substances.

Models and representations are all that humans have to understanding what we encounter. Some are useful and soome are useless or even dangerous, harming one's self or another.

I find usefulness in the Octet-valent model for inorganic chemistry. I also find usefulness in Druidic Pagan values for our environment and my entitlement to life harmonius with my basic nature. I find Buddhist teachings and traditions healing for my emotional wounds and emotional mental recovery and enhancing my capacity to thrive.

So I put a set of questions to you:

Do you have awareness of your own conscious existence?

Do your Hickory trees have more awareness than a crescent wrench?

Can they sense light, water and temperature or other Hickory trees and respond to them?

How is that different from yourself?

How is that similar to yourself?

Does a thriving forest or a coral reef have an awareness of the interaction of all the living components within or is each organism aware only of itself and no awareness shared between any living organism?

dsdrane

11-03-2009, 04:15 PM

post stoned. :shifty::agree::whistleblower::inspector:

dsdrane

11-03-2009, 04:34 PM

I am curious as to why your head is spinning. I thought that distinguishing between someone claiming to be speaking as Christ's proxy and someone with metaphysical belief in Christ but does not claim to be his proxy was clear.

Firstly, I find your "C" versus "c" to be a false dichotomy.

Secondly, I was curious as to why you felt the need to define something that you clearly are not.

Thirdly, I have no idea what you're talking about with respect to "Christ's proxy".

And, for good measure, I read it at 7 am (my fault entirely).

Rick336

11-03-2009, 04:56 PM

I agree with you, Rick. All of these religions are metaphysical paradigms that are created by humans.

Good. Then we agree.

It is easy to point out how inconsistent and chimerical they appear when contrasted to modern thinking. I would like to use a scientific metaphor:

Basic Chemisrty:

Na+ OH- + H+ Cl- -------> Na+Cl- + H2O

This is a tool using the "Octet-Valent" Model to predict the outcome of a chemical reaction between sodium hydroxide and Hydrochloric acid producing sodium chloride (salt) and water

Now no one today really thinks a sodium hydroxide molecule is shaped like a capital "N" subcase "a" with 2 dots on all four sides of it.

But the model is useful to predict the result of mixing these two substances.

Models and representations are all that humans have to understanding what we encounter. Some are useful and some are useless or even dangerous, harming one's self or another.

You've lost me here. How does this relate to imaginary religious beliefs?

I find usefulness in the Octet-valent model for inorganic chemistry. I also find usefulness in Druidic Pagan values for our environment and my entitlement to life harmonius with my basic nature. I find Buddhist teachings and traditions healing for my emotional wounds and emotional mental recovery and enhancing my capacity to thrive.

Whatever works for you.

As for me, I find reality (the natural world that can be measured by empirical evidence) to be all I need. Instead of prayer or wishing on a star or rubbing a lucky rabbit's foot, I have found that meeting life's challenges through rational problem solving and logic works best.

So I put a set of questions to you:

Do you have awareness of your own conscious existence?

Yes.

Do your Hickory trees have more awareness than a crescent wrench?

So far, science has found no evidence that awareness exists outside of a human or animal brain. Since hickory trees and crescent wrenches lack a brain, logic tells me that they probably have no awareness.

Can they sense light, water and temperature or other Hickory trees and respond to them?

I think the chances of a crescent wrench sensing anything is 0%. I don't know if the hickory trees can sense light, water, and temperature, but I doubt it.

How is that different from yourself?

I can sense light, water, and temperature.

How is that similar to yourself?

The only similarities I have to crescent wrenches and hickory trees is that we are all made from the same atoms.

Does a thriving forest or a coral reef have an awareness of the interaction of all the living components within or is each organism aware only of itself and no awareness shared between any living organism?

I would have to say that since a coral reef can't think, it probably has no clue about the forest. Same goes for the forest about the reef.

The valleys, however, think the mountains are high on drugs.

Rick

dsdrane

11-03-2009, 05:28 PM

You've lost me here. How does this relate to imaginary religious beliefs?

Or imaginary atheistic beliefs, for that matter.

Daniel

11-03-2009, 10:47 PM

Oh Zeus! Save us! :pray:;):D

Rick336

11-04-2009, 10:40 AM

Oh Zeus! Save us! :pray:;):D

Zeus retired in 600 BC and is no longer taking prayer requests. Please make another selection.

Rick

scott snedeker

11-04-2009, 10:18 PM

Firstly, I find your "C" versus "c" to be a false dichotomy.

How does it appear to be a false dichotomy? I truly apologize for my unskillful attempt to offer something of positive value.

Secondly, I was curious as to why you felt the need to define something that you clearly are not.

Because I keep my mind open and allow the thought disciplines of other people into my thinking so that I can understand them better. In particular I see the religious right using gay christians' own faith to cause self-loathing. By claiming to "know" that Christ condems gay folk for living true to their capacity for intimacy with the same gender, they are acting as proxy (speaking for him by "official" authorization).

My intent by introducing this dichotomy Of Christian versus christan is to offer a distinction between believing in Christ without having to also accept homophobic condemnation from a church.

The purpose is to suggest a tool to help the gay christian let go of the self condemnation activated by unskilled words from a church leader yet still keep his/her faith.

Believe it or not my Godparents are devout christians. They practice to the best of their capacity love and forgiveness. I have never heard a single word about sin or abomination in the 43 years that I have known them. It is part of what makes them two of the most beautiful people I know in the world. I know that christianity can also be used to nurture gay people and not always to condemn them because I have received such from my Godparents.

While like Rick, I do not have a metaphysical belief that Christ was anything more than a human possessed of rare genius, I find that his assertion that every being has the capacity and entitlement to love and be loved unconditionally, to be a touchstone. I find touchstones in many different thought paradigms contained within varied religious metaphysical constructs. I don't have to convince myself that all of the paradigm is true in order to embrace a touchstone within it.

Ths is why I allow into my awareness other folks' religious insights. I consider someone's faith to be a part of their mind created by their mind. Since I have begun mindful awareness meditation (Vipassana), I have begun to see the beauty and magnificence of my own mind. Since becoming aware of my own mind I have become aware of the beauty and magnificence of the minds of the people I encounter --and their faith is part of that beauty.

To me, metaphysical reality of a belief is unimportant. I see no value in proving or disproving it. If it reveals a touchstone, it is valuable to me. If it causes suffering, it is worthless and I allow it to leave the focus of my consciousness.

I hope this post is not as unskillful as my previous ones in this thread. I never had intent to cause negative feelings or offense. Quite the opposite. I was and still am attempting to help folks, in some small way, to more easily learn to let go of suffering.

scott snedeker

11-04-2009, 11:28 PM

Or imaginary atheistic beliefs, for that matter.

You've lost me here. How does this relate to imaginary religious beliefs?

Both are merely models used to understand obeservations. Neither is actally reality

So far, science has found no evidence that awareness exists outside of a human or animal brain. Since hickory trees and crescent wrenches lack a brain, logic tells me that they probably have no awareness.

I think the chances of a crescent wrench sensing anything is 0%. I don't know if the hickory trees can sense light, water, and temperature, but I doubt it.

I can sense light, water, and temperature.

The only similarities I have to crescent wrenches and hickory trees is that we are all made from the same atoms.

I would have to say that since a coral reef can't think, it probably has no clue about the forest. Same goes for the forest about the reef.

I did not intend to suggest that a reef was aware of a forest. Imeant that a reef in some uncharacterizeable way, appears to have an awareness arising from the connected awareness of the living organisms that are its components

The valleys, however, think the mountains are high on drugs.

Rick

Because a Hickory tree will grow toward and orient itself in response to light or water or react to insect invasion while a crescent wrench will not, I conclude that, on some level, it is aware.

I am convinced that it is an awareness different than ours that we could not possbly begin to characterize, but a reaction to these things in a living organism certainly suggests the appearance of awareness. We share 90% of the same genes in common with hickory trees and we have awareness.

Empiricism is a solid thought method, but belief in nonexistence of anything that isn't proven to you seems more like nihilism. Practicing nihilism in my moment to moment thoughts was something I did for many years. It killed any sense of wonder or appreciation.

Adrain, my Heart Brother, questioned my nihilistic belief that my "mind" was mereley predictable electrochemical reactions. He showed me the art and emotions he created with photograpy. Art arises from shared awareness of two beings. This put a chink in my nihilistic armor. Bit by bit beauty and wonder and appreciation returned to my day to day life experience.

The mystery of how a forest functions as an ecosystem with each of its living components interacting certainly appears to possess awareness on some uncharacterizeable level. The fact that humans are not able to characterize something using a tool of empiricism does not prove nonexistence. So if something appears to have awareness and it cannot be disproven, which discipline of thought is most compatible with a healthy mind? Nihilism and assumption of nonexistence or allowiing the benefit of the doubt to evoke mystery, wonder and appreciation?

For me it is the latter; opening my mind, to the possiblity of a mysterious wonder.

Obsession with Metaphysical accuracy blocks the potential for experiencing life. An atheist can be as comparably Obsessed with metapysical accuracy as a person with a religious belief. Both views are probably so far off from the mark of what is reality that their difference is virtually indistinguishable.

I agree that following a belief system that seems absurd is valueless, but allowing your mind to be open to the possibility of something not absurd but not provable can lead to discovery.

Daniel

11-04-2009, 11:47 PM

I like the direction of your thought, especially the following....

Empiricism is a solid thought method, but belief in nonexistence of anything that isn't proven to you seems more like nihilism.

I would call this the out of mind of sight school. If it can't be proven, then it can't exist. Funny then, that so much of what we take for granted, like electricity, can't be proven either- that is- it exists, but no one has any idea how it works. Am I making a case of God? No. But I like to think there there is ample wiggle room in the universe for things that are 'real' but not understood. Just because we don't understand them, or can't prove them, doesn't mean that they don't exist.

Like you, I believe that keeping one's awareness open is what leads to discovery.

Doubt is an exceedingly good thing. It leads to the path less trodden.

dsdrane

11-05-2009, 08:14 AM

An atheist can be as comparably Obsessed with metapysical accuracy as a person with a religious belief. Both views are probably so far off from the mark of what is reality that their difference is virtually indistinguishable.

Really?

I'll take my chances with poetry over a test tube any day.

'Course, I never was any good at science anyway....

bnmoore

11-05-2009, 10:50 AM

Obsession with Metaphysical accuracy blocks the potential for experiencing life. An atheist can be as comparably Obsessed with metapysical accuracy as a person with a religious belief. Both views are probably so far off from the mark of what is reality that their difference is virtually indistinguishable.

I agree that following a belief system that seems absurd is valueless, but allowing your mind to be open to the possibility of something not absurd but not provable can lead to discovery.

I can offer something anecdotal here. One of my co-worker buds is pretty much a rabid atheist. As long as I don't use the G-word we pretty much agree on everything. I see what I call Spirit shining right out of the man's eyes. His wife and He are childless but they do dog rescue. My personal feeling is that you can learn a lot about unconditional love from a dog. My best friend and his partner have two dogs. I guess I'm their uncle. They seem determined to lick my eyebrows off every time I see them.

I see what I would call empirical evidence all the time but acknowledge that it might not appear as such to anyone else. In my faith God is all there is but I know I can't define it in anyone else's life. My feeling is It becomes personal to you, through you, as you.

Rick336

11-05-2009, 12:36 PM

Empiricism is a solid thought method, but belief in nonexistence of anything that isn't proven to you seems more like nihilism.

Please define what nihilism means to you because my definition of nihilism means rejection of everything as being real. That does not describe me.

An atheist can be as comparably Obsessed with metapysical accuracy as a person with a religious belief. Both views are probably so far off from the mark of what is reality that their difference is virtually indistinguishable.

I agree that atheists and fundamentalists can be equally obsessed with their view of reality. But what does this have to do with the existence or non-existence of the supernatural?

I can find hundreds of examples of how fundamentalist are "off the mark" of what reality is. But I'm curious about us atheists being off that mark. Can you give me examples including evidence to support the examples?

The fact that humans are not able to characterize something using a tool of empiricism does not prove nonexistence.

Nor does wishing and hoping that something exists prove its existence. Many people want ghosts to exist because the existence of ghosts is exciting and mysterious and spooky. Others want angels to exists because they believe angels are God's helpers who look after us when things go wrong. Still others want Satan to exist as an explanation for why there is so much bad stuff going on in the world.

But look around. Where are these things? Shouldn't logic and common sense tell us that if something is invisible and has no trustworthy evidence to support its existence that it probably isn't real? Just because lots of people believe that something is true doesn't mean that it is true.

Most adults over the age of 50 in the United States in 2009 believe that Lee Harvey Oswalt did not work alone when he assassinated President Kennedy in November 1963. Even after years of intense investigation and hundreds of interviews and hard physical evidence shows otherwise they continue to hold onto this belief. They refuse to believe Oswalt was the lone gunman because for one insane person to kill the president seems so random and senseless. They believe there's got to be more to it than that. A conspiracy just makes more sense. It also makes the story more exciting. And since so many Americans believe in the conspiracy theory, then they figure that it must be true. And besides, there was that movie.

Is reality so boring that we need conspiracy theories and ghosts and faeries and ESP to make it more exciting? Or is reality so frightening that we need make-believe gods and angels and aliens to save us from it?

For me, I don't need a magical make-believe world to make life more livable. I find the real world right in front of me to be beautiful, mysterious and adventurous all on its own. And I know that I can face the challenges of life with confidence because my survival up to this point is proof of it.

At night I can step out into my front yard and look up at a universe full of stars and planets and it thrills me knowing that I am part of it all. I can visit the Grand Canyon and be in awe of the millions of years it took to create it. I can enjoy a child's excitement of Christmas or the laughter with family or friends or a walk through a shower of golden leaves on a cool November afternoon.

The way I see it, we are all here for a very short time. And when we're gone, we will be forgotten. Fifty years after we die, few, if any will know or care that we ever existed at all. The most important thing is that we're alive now and that we enjoy the present.

Hoping that another life exists after we die doesn't mean it does. The fact that millions of people believe in an afterlife doesn't make it real. Only evidence makes it real and so far there is absolutely no evidence that we survive death to live forever in another world.

What we know for sure is that this life is what we have now. Enjoy it. Savor it. Celebrate it. Soak it in. But whatever you do, don't miss it by being distracted with anticipation of an even better party later.

This is the party! And it will end much sooner than you think.

Rick

dsdrane

11-05-2009, 01:08 PM

The way I see it, we are all here for a very short time. And when we're gone, we will be forgotten. Fifty years after we die, few, if any will know or care that we ever existed at all. The most important thing is that we're alive now and that we enjoy the present.

One of the more annoying things about certain denominations is their view that "now" is hell and the real party begins after death. It's a sad orientation and, frankly, a waste. That said, I don't believe there is anything necessarily inconsistent with theistic belief and enjoying the present. There certainly isn't for me.

In terms of us being forgotten, as a genealogist, I feel something spiritual-y when I learn more about people I never knew, but without whom I wouldn't be here. Not only haven't I forgotten them, I'm actively seeking to learn more about them. It's fascinating and connects me to the past. Jews actively incorporate remembering their dead into each religious service, especially noting the yahrzeit (death anniversary) of particular people. It's a beautiful tradition that reminds us that people continue to exist in our hearts.

Hoping that another life exists after we die doesn't mean it does. The fact that millions of people believe in an afterlife doesn't make it real. Only evidence makes it real and so far there is absolutely no evidence that we survive death to live forever in another world.

Whereas it's true that no one can prove an "afterlife", we do know and can prove that our mortal coil becomes wormfood. It's the ultimate recycling. Our carbon gets folded back into the universe of other carbon. We return to a totality we never really left. What happens to the soul is another matter...however, given what we know about the cycle of physical matter, is it so far-fetched to conclude something similar for the soul? I know my father's soul continues to live in me and in others, so it's not so weird for me to extrapolate from that the notion that his soul exists outside of me as well. I can't prove it, but I find I don't need to. I like the idea that he is "with God", "with the Creator". You can call it a crutch of you like, but I prefer to think of it as a beautiful and deeply-satisfying idea.

Rick336

11-05-2009, 09:44 PM

.....I don't believe there is anything necessarily inconsistent with theistic belief and enjoying the present. There certainly isn't for me.

I believe you.

As long as you're not forcing me to behave according to your view of reality, why should I care? It doesn't really matter how one finds his happiness. Life is short. If it feels good, do it.

Rick

dsdrane

11-05-2009, 11:03 PM

I believe you.

As long as you're not forcing me to behave according to your view of reality, why should I care? It doesn't really matter how one finds his happiness. Life is short. If it feels good, do it.

Rick

Exactly. Yes. And amen.

scott snedeker

11-06-2009, 11:41 AM

Please define what nihilism means to you because my definition of nihilism means rejection of everything as being real. That does not describe me.

To me in the context of this discussion I shared experience of my nihilism as an unwillingness to reject all unprovable ideas as nonsense, valueless, dangerous and wasting precious moments of life that could be spent in the here and now. As I mentioned before This killed any wonder or mystery in my experience

I agree that atheists and fundamentalists can be equally obsessed with their view of reality. But what does this have to do with the existence or non-existence of the supernatural?

I can find hundreds of examples of how fundamentalist are "off the mark" of what reality is. But I'm curious about us atheists being off that mark. Can you give me examples including evidence to support the examples?

I would like to share an example on a discussion between my God brother and I last year. I thought this was really cool.

A video appeared of salt water burning with a yellow flame when Radiofrequency was passed though it. The energy calculations show a total net energy output. My God brother is a Physicist and I am a medical practitioner by education so I am at a terrible disadvantage. However I also Know from practical experience that a patient with the appearance of having a srtoke but has no evidence of it on CT stlii usually is having one despite the"empiric evidence" to the contrary. Similarly The net energy equation showing a positive energy ouput using electromagnetic theory may not be a hoax.

He maintained that the whole thing is a hoax because there is never a net energy output, never! I agree I said but lets say these calculations are accurate for the sake of argument. How would you explain them?

I did some rsearch and found that a tiny fraction of Chloride is in an isotope (Cl-36) form that releases a beta particle (electron) and changes to a neutron to a proton. This changes the element fron Chlorine to Argon which is inert. If this Chlorine is attached to sodium, the sodium is suddenly un balanced in its electronic valence and becomes extremely explosive. A sodium flame is bright yellow (just like in the video)

The only last thing to verify if this is indeed occurring is: Does Radio frequency accelerate decay of Cl-36?

The energy is potential energy stored when a sun collapsed formining the Cl-36 isotope. The mass of the electron times the speed of light squared produces enough energy to generate a net positive energy output.

So My point is if I had just taken my God-brother's assertion that this whole video is a hoax because it defies electromagnetic theory, I would not have discovered a possible explanation using relativistic theory for an observation that "seems" real but is unproven.

What I did not do is use a Ouiga board or use faeries as an explanation. I used relativistic theory
My explanation is yet unproven as I cannot find anyone who knows if RF accelerates decay of Cl-36.

Sometimes having an open mind to something observed and unproven leads to discovery and wonder. The mystery of what we don't yet Understand, by embracing its possiblity is invigorating and leads to wonder!

At night I can step out into my front yard and look up at a universe full of stars and planets and it thrills me knowing that I am part of it all. I can visit the Grand Canyon and be in awe of the millions of years it took to create it. I can enjoy a child's excitement of Christmas or the laughter with family or friends or a walk through a shower of golden leaves on a cool November afternoon.

The way I see it, we are all here for a very short time. And when we're gone, we will be forgotten. Fifty years after we die, few, if any will know or care that we ever existed at all. The most important thing is that we're alive now and that we enjoy the present.

Hoping that another life exists after we die doesn't mean it does. The fact that millions of people believe in an afterlife doesn't make it real. Only evidence makes it real and so far there is absolutely no evidence that we survive death to live forever in another world.

What we know for sure is that this life is what we have now. Enjoy it. Savor it. Celebrate it. Soak it in. But whatever you do, don't miss it by being distracted with anticipation of an even better party later.

This is the party! And it will end much sooner than you think.

To the above I agree! Live in the moment!

Rick

I believe you.

As long as you're not forcing me to behave according to your view of reality, why should I care? It doesn't really matter how one finds his happiness. Life is short. If it feels good, do it.

Absolutely, and wonder of discovery using an open mind can be an invigorating part of it!

Rick

Have a great weekend!

bnmoore

11-06-2009, 01:24 PM

Speaking for myself, I don't believe God is supernatural. I have run across this idea from atheists in other places and I'm just not clear on what is meant by it.

Science has already proven that it is all God to my satisfaction.

I just don't know what it is people are looking at and saying isn't.

I am a person that has experienced my own faith healings many times. I don't really care what agency they come through. It is done unto me as I believe.

dsdrane

11-07-2009, 12:27 AM

I'm curious if you have any thoughts about what your thread has become.

And if your original question has been answered.

colinashante

11-27-2009, 05:40 PM

this post really got me thinking especially once i started reading the responses it made me think even more. it seems to me that people no adays get caught up in the label of "Christian". I grew up in the Seventh-Day Adventist denomination and made the concious decision to leave that denomination for the same reason. People get so caught up in the identification of other christians in human social construct. which my religion and my connection with god is something that is specifically tailored to me, and that the way I express it is wrong because an outsider looking in will never know the depths of struggle on my journey to come to know god.

I really enjoyed your quote from romans up there. I had one to give you in return however the exact reference has escaped me but I think it is in matthew(maybe romans) when he is talking about how hypocrits proclaim that they are christs followers, they demonstrated on street corners how awesome at prayer and the depths of their commitment to god...but those where also the people who were buying and selling merchandise in gods temples...that passage later goes on to state the relationship between a person and god is to be done silently behind closed doors where no one can see you. its a way for you to get intimate with your creator and the god that you serve. it goes on to state fairly shortly after that that christians could identify each other because of the things that they do but od not boast about. to quote the NIV version "you have faith. I have deeds"...people today like people back in the day are so caught up in identifying as christians and linking up as christians when taking on that label(not that there is anything wrong with that because for some people it works really well for and others not so much. again going back to ones relationship to god) can be so devastating to ones faith, because of all the baggage that comes along with being a christian and that it causes such a fracture with in the cultural fabric of all gods children...

I am going to stop myself because I could go on talking about this for hours :0)

thank you! thank you! thank you for this post I have learned alot from the conversation and you from this post!

pied piper

12-03-2009, 10:00 PM

my post to tdogg. > Typically a Christians... (http://www.soulforce.org/forums/showthread.php?p=70110#post70110)

Is there anything in particular about how Christians are to treat people that hasn't been expressed by numerous other philosophers and moral teachers? If it's not a belief, but an act which singles out believers, what is the act that distinguishes them?

The difference is that the action is motivated by inspiration from God.

koneill08

02-05-2010, 08:05 AM

I'm new to this site, and this thread is interesting to me. I know it's old and probably won't be responded to now, but...Thought I'd give it a try anyway.

One person asked "Is there anything in particular about how Christians are to treat people that hasn't been expressed by numerous other philosophers and moral teachers? If it's not a belief, but an act which singles out believers, what is the act that distinguishes them?"

I would have to say it's a combination of belief and acts. Because faith without works is dead, but works without faith is equally as dead, at least of any spiritual life. The act that distinguishes Christians is love. John 13:35 says "by this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another."

I think the essence of true christianity is spiritual. There are many things that can be learned from other "religions" that are also true for Christians. It doesn't mean their way is the right way or better way, but it does mean that we all can (regardless of our beliefs) learn something about God and share that with others and there are no property rights to what is or isn't God. Only God can do that. Each person is made differently. No two people are alike, like snowflakes. But each person is made to display something of God that nobody else in the world through time and space has ever displayed about him. He/She is infinite in His/her wonders and I don't think there is anything wrong with "adopting" parts of what another religion has learned about God. It's the take the meat and leave the bones thing, let it work for you. If it doesn't, scrap it. Of course, as one other person said, you can open up a huge can of worms with this discussion, the kind that says is there absolute truth or not. But my journey has led me to believe that there is both absolute and relative truth. And they can co-exist together. That's what makes this journey so interesting. If it was a clearly laid out black and white plan then we really would have no use for our reasoning and judgment skills would we? We would just be robots on an assembly line and life (all of life, not just individual lives) would have no purpose.

Anyway, this probably won't get responded to. Not because nobody is out there, but because it's such an old post most people won't probably look at it. But again, thought I'd give my two cents, for what they are worth in this economy!

Enjoy.

Unmasked

02-05-2010, 02:13 PM

I visit infrequently, so I'm not sure that I'm even "on this site". But I attend a UCC and study the teachings of Christ. I don't believe most of the supernatural elements of the story, so I don't know where that leaves me.

kara speltz

02-05-2010, 04:41 PM

First let me say, that I am a practicing Roman Catholic, an out lesbian at my parish, as well as a lay preacher.

However, I can no longer sing that hymn, "they'll know we are Christians by our love." Let explain why. Several years ago, just as the Iraqi war was starting, I traveled to Baghdad, crossing the front lines and arriving in Baghdad, prior to the occupation of the capital.

We spent several days there and visited sites that had been bombed the day previous to our visit. We saw literally hundreds and hundreds of Iraqis milling around observing the devastation of American bombs on their homes.

Not a single Iraqi was anything but welcoming to us. And even more amazing experience occurred as we traveled back to Amman, Jordan. We were traveling in caravan - 3 cars. The caravan got separated and as we waited near the Jordanian border for the last car to arrive, some Somali medical students stopped to tell us that the third car had crashed near a small town called Rutba. We returned to Rutba and found the local hospital there had just been bombed two days prior by Americans. We continued down the road and found a small clinic that had been set up and found the rest of our crew receiving much needed medical care. These wonderful people wouldn't take any money from us, and simply asked us to tell the American people what was happening in Iraq. They used the little medical supplies they had to treat Americans who they could have held responsible for the deaths of those in the hospital.

From that moment on, I knew that song was at best a myth, and at worst an outright lie.

After 9/11 occured throughout America, anyone who even looked a bit like a middle easterner was threated with attack. I recall that some of us women, made a point of wearing scarves to cover our heads (to look like the "habibs (I think that's what they were called) that Islamic women wore, so as absorb some of the hatred that was being projected at anyone who might look to be Islamic. There was very little love within America in those days following that tragedy. And yet in Iraq, we experienced the love and acceptance of the Iraqi people who are Islamic.

It's time to let go of that myth. Its time to understand that whatever faith people adhere to, they are our brothers and sisters. That's the message Jesus taught.

Kara

antiochian

02-05-2010, 05:03 PM

Kara's reply was simply wonderful, and needs little if anything added to it. There are Christians who have given their lives for others, given their fortunes to the needy, and made the world better through their actions. And surely God as they understood him shall reward them.

There are also many Christians who use scripture and God to terrorize their fellow human beings. Plenty of famous examples abound, I need not name names, and we can all think of examples from our own lives.

As lesbian, bisexual, trans, and gays, we have seen behavior from Christians that is cruel and barbaric. We've been burned by the words of hate that flame from [many of] their tongues. They say they are being "loving" when they do and say such things, but their actions reveal their falsehood.

I've encountered non-Christians, even non-religious folks, who have genuinely kind hearts--people I would have once thought lost and deluded who have equal if not higher morals than a lot of church-goers I've known. These folks will surely not go to some burning pit forever after death!

What I'm trying to say, in too many words, and in a nonquarrelsome spirit, is that Christianity has no monopoly on love. There are good Christians. There are also good people who do not worship the Christ.

baumgrenze

02-06-2010, 11:05 PM

Thank you koneill08 for reopening this thread. I like what you said: "Each person is made differently. No two people are alike, like snowflakes. But each person is made to display something of God that nobody else in the world through time and space has ever displayed about him." I'd add to it that each of us sees and perceives differently, and we only learn when we share what we have been given to see with others and do our best to see that they share in return.

You led me to spend some time paging down through the thread one more time. I found an interesting statement by awediot. In Post 21 (06-23-2009, 01:46 PM) he said "I was beyond being merely religious and over the boxing in of labels... I was part of God Itself."

Jesus announced that this is a goal of his for those who follow him. John 17: 22-23 (among others in John 17) "I gave them the same glory you gave me, so that they may be one, just as you and I are one: I in them and you in me, so that they may be completely one, in order that the world may know that you sent me and that you love them as you love me."

Christian theologians have argued for centuries about the doctrine of the Trinity and completely missed the doctrine of the "allity" Christ calls us to be.

This morning I had a conversation with a pastor friend and we briefly touched on God's omnipresence while discussing Christ as fully human and fully divine. I wanted to explore the theology of the crucifixion pain I cause each time I sin. Omnipresence in space requires omnipresence in time. I came home and poking around in electronic notes to myself I found the idea that, at least to the extent that we all acknowledge the presence of God in us, when we cause hurt to another we cause hurt to God. That Christ taught us (in part) that the sum of the Law and the Prophets is that we are to love our neighbor.

These are some random thoughts about what a follower of Christ might want to consider experiencing tomorrow.

baumgrenze

koneill08

02-08-2010, 09:58 AM

Can I ask a question without causing a raging fire! :)

We talk about sin as if it's something we do. I've done extensive studies on the idea of sin. I 've discovered that sin is a force, not an action. That's why Jesus said that if you even think of adultery, without commiting it in action, it's still adultery. Sin is dealt with in a one time transaction between us and God through Jesus. So when we talk about sinning, what we're really talking about is transgressions. Mistakes, poor choices, or just ignorant ones (where we don't have all info before deciding) and it causes repurcussions to ourselves or others. Sin has such a negative connotation and feel to it, and the underlying idea that most don't want to deal with as a result, is the punishment that is supposed to go with sin. If we've dealt with our sin (singular) in that one time transaction with God, then all we're dealing with is transgressions. No punishment is meted out for transgression. Yes there are natural consequences to deal with, but no eternal punishment. If that makes any sense.

Anyway, just thought I'd comment to share what I think about sin. I think it's way overpreached and many religious leaders use the fear of the punishment for sin as a way to "convert unbelievers, nonbelivers, seekers, etc." Unfortunately, as I mentioned in another post on here somewhere, what you gain by fear, you must maintain by fear. It is the kindness of God that brings about repentance. Not punishment.

Hope you enjoy.

baumgrenze

02-08-2010, 11:48 AM

koneill08,

Thank you for a thoughtful response. Perhaps we should be saying "forgive us our transgressions..."

It is hard to find anyone these days who doesn't want punishment, even violent, vengeful punishment for anyone who seriously wrongs them or someone they love. At the same time, they look to God for grace in response to their own transgressions. The net result is a growing prison population of individuals whose recidivism rate is skyrocketing, those who are eventually released, that is. We can't do anything to prepare them for reentry into the 'real world' because it costs too much and is 'soft on crime;' we need the whole budget for more guards, more prisons, you get the picture. Would that someone with a bully pulpit would begin to preach about being 'smart on crime.'

Your thoughtful reply reminds me that I posted the link below to this thread sometime last year. It might have escaped your notice. I think you will find it interesting reading:

http://www.sharktacos.com/God/cross_intro.shtml

God bless,

baumgrenze

Rick336

02-08-2010, 12:26 PM

That's why Jesus said that if you even think of adultery, without committing it in action, it's still adultery.

I like this line of logic. I think this year instead of paying my income taxes, I'll just tell the IRS I'm paying them in my mind.

Rick

Gennee

02-08-2010, 03:08 PM

I like this line of logic. I think this year instead of paying my income taxes, I'll just tell the IRS I'm paying them in my mind.

Rick

Would love to know if you pulled that off.

Gennee

:lol::lol::lol:

bnmoore

02-08-2010, 03:17 PM

Sin is dealt with in a one time transaction between us and God through Jesus.

This sort of belief system bias is one of the reasons I don't really make a distinction between Xians of any sexual orientation. Most all belief systems tend to have some sort of claim on God. And most all of the texts held sacred by any of them claim to be written by some sort of divine hand.

The sense of connection is what I'm concerned with. Not the method of getting there. What works for thee may not work for me. I respect faith.

Masood

02-11-2010, 01:44 AM

You know who you are. Speak up.

I am a Christian from a Muslim Homosexual background, I was called by Jesus to follow him and I left everything my country my home my job and my family (biological brother and sisters) and everything I had , and I followed him, he has been with me every step of the way during the past twenty two years of my christian life for the first twenty one years of which I thought he has made me a Heterosexual though deep in my heart I knew my orientation has not been changed, it is during the past one year I have realized that he loves me even though I am an homosexual nevertheless I enjoy the family and the children that he has given me and I have no regrets and i can proudly announce to the whole world that i am a Homosexual Christian Dad who got his most beautiful children by the loving grace directly from Jesus , and who has been saved by the grace of God and when I go to glory i'll see many of my brothers and sisters from the GLBT community God bless you Masood

Masood

02-11-2010, 02:10 AM

Yes I am a Child of God and i am a christian , I wrote a full letter but I have no Idea where it went! I'll write again as it is very important to me. I am a christian from a Muslim Gay back Ground 22 years ago Jesus came to my heart and changed my life and asked me to follow him, I left my country my siblings and my profession and all that I had and followed him for the past twenty one years I thought Jesus has made me a heterosexual though deep within me I knew my orientation has not changed but because of the family and the beautiful children he had gave me I chose to think of myself as a heterosexual man and it is only one year that I have decided to be who I am and I want the whole world to know that I am a Homosexual Christian Man who has been saved by the Grace of Jesus and I call myself a born again Christian who is following his saviour irrespective of his sexual orientation and when I go to Glory I am sure many saints from GLBT community who are sitting along with Paul and Peter and the rest of the followers including Merry Megdalen and other Merry's at the feet of Jesus Oh yes we will all be there and I am sure what we have seen and tasted partly in this world we will see and feel in full God bless you Masood.

bnmoore

02-11-2010, 11:18 AM

At the top of the page is says "We seek freedom from religious and political oppression..."

I find the presumption of sin judgmental and the personal savior requirement conditional. I've seen a few posts that say even if homosexuality is not a sin that it doesn't matter and that you are still a sinner. It seems to me that the original sin concept is still rooted deeply in the minds of LGBTQ&Q and heterosexual people. I consider that self-oppression. You don't have to. I believe in complete freedom and worthiness.

Rick336

02-11-2010, 05:04 PM

It seems to me that the original sin concept is still rooted deeply in the minds of LGBTQ&Q and heterosexual people.

And that's unfortunate.

Since no gods are actually speaking to us, and since no evidence shows that any gods ever have, sin is nothing more than the invention of ancient human's imagination; the same ancient humans that believed animals could talk and witches could fly.

Today if anyone says that animals can talk or that witches can fly, we vigorously encourage them to seek serious psychotherapy. But for some reason we still hang onto this "sin" idea as if it's still valid and real.

Homosexuality is not a sin for the simple fact that sin only exists in our imaginations. It's not a real thing. It was a concept invented thousands of years ago as a way to control the population.

In order to grow our intelligence and become a more civilized world, we need to challenge our thoughts and beliefs and ask a lot of questions before we automatically accept something as fact.

“The unexamined life is not worth living.” - Socrates

Rick

bnmoore

02-12-2010, 11:09 AM

Since no gods are actually speaking to us, and since no evidence shows that any gods ever have,

I think that depends on the god of one's understanding and how it's defined to or by them. If may not be sacred to someone else. It could be perceived as madness.

Today if anyone says that animals can talk or that witches can fly,

I had a very talkative or maybe just vocal cat. And she was damned good at smiting unbelievers. A witch is perfectly free to buy a plane ticket. I've flown with several.

Homosexuality is not a sin for the simple fact that sin only exists in our imaginations. It's not a real thing. It was a concept invented thousands of years ago as a way to control the population.

In order to grow our intelligence and become a more civilized world, we need to challenge our thoughts and beliefs and ask a lot of questions before we automatically accept something as fact.

“The unexamined life is not worth living.” - Socrates

Rick

One of our courses was on 'Socrates' Way' at our center. There are a few around who say we are about impiety and corrupting youth. History says that's why Socrates was sentenced to death.

What we teach is a correlation of the laws of science, opinions of philosophy, and revelations of religions, applied to the needs and aspirations of people today. We've been labeled Panentheists or Panpsychists and that is true to the extent that we are Monists.