Soulforce Forums Suggestion Box

[NathanATX]

Do you have an idea for the Soulforce Forums? Post it here!

What features would you like to see?

What would build community? be fun? further the mission of Soulforce?

Thanks for the feedback!

[Jennifer5]

One thing I've always thought was unfortunate was that the emails that go out from Soulforce, don't mention these forums. Many of Soulforce's strongest supports will read the email, but not explore the site. I think it's unfortunate because I feel like a lot more people would join if they were aware of us.

Probably not much you can do about that. Also probably not the kind of idea you were after, but that's all I've got at the moment. :love:

[awediot]

...hooooboy. As much as I believe in the fight of "Freedom for lgbt people from religious & political oppression...", and being a passivist at heart makes the principle of "relentless, non-violent resistance" second nature to me, I find SoulForce to be almost exclusively deconstructionist in it's ecumenical, maybe pantheistic perspective... Ghandi and King each firmly held to completely incompatible beliefs about each others "religion"... They had civil activism in common, and that's about it... SoulForce seems geared to oppose and defend against it's percieved adversaries by undermining their system of beliefs and vulnerable faith, but I see no cohesion of thought as to what to do next to build people back up. -We're all operating under the belief we do what we do for both our own well being and sanity, as well as out of love and concern for humanity as a whole, so world peace is a rather worn out incentive these days...

What will SF's role be 5-10 years from now when we can marry and force people to outwardly treat us as equals under the law? I know what "you" want people to stop doing to us gays, but what do you want them to DO instead? - Mel White, MLK (and the very Name of this place), presents an implication of being grounded in "Christianity", with a liberal nod to the metaphysical peace makers of other faiths... That was my initial impression, but I've seen -Xtianity treated like, and spoken of in the same way Christians treat and speak of us... Can we only "win" by turning the tables of oppression on our oppressors, in a relentlessly, in your face passive way?

I know what SF stands against; I just have no idea what it stands for... It's ludicrous to suggest "you guys" figure it out, but it is at the core of any constructive criticism I could offer. I think it is why the interest in this organization is waning so much... You'll subvert the need for you if/when you are successful, and we can just get back to arguing about "God" and Johnny still being unable to read... I fear for those gays who's identity and purpose has formed around this fight. What next when they really are used to us and no one cares anymore?

[Jennifer5]

I know what SF stands against; I just have no idea what it stands for... It's ludicrous to suggest "you guys" figure it out, but it is at the core of any constructive criticism I could offer. I think it is why the interest in this organization is waning so much... You'll subvert the need for you if/when you are successful, and we can just get back to arguing about "God" and Johnny still being unable to read... I fear for those gays who's identity and purpose has formed around this fight. What next when they really are used to us and no one cares anymore?

What does Soulforce stand for? Love.

It's not just an organization, it's a cause and it's a community. Real people, real feelings, real problems, real stories, and here real relationships have been created. Lives are literally saved daily because of the things such as the equality ride and Mel White's books. Even more lives are improved because of they know that there is love and support out there for them. When these things happen, it doesn't much matter what the organization is doing 5 years from now if the fights are over. When GLBT people have equal rights, Soulforce can be a part of history or perhaps they'll adopt a new cause.

...but you're back, something drew you back to this site, so I'm guessing that in your heart you probably agree with me.

[tdogg]

I can see Soulforce working to end religious oppression of GLBT people on a global basis. So yes, when we have full equality here in the USA, which I believe will actually take a long time, then more effort can be put towards gaining equality in other nations.

Meanwhile, there will always be a need for people to come and share, talk and debate, encourage and be encouraged. Don't you think?

[bnmoore]

...hooooboy. As much as I believe in the fight of "Freedom for lgbt people from religious & political oppression...", and being a passivist at heart makes the principle of "relentless, non-violent resistance" second nature to me, I find SoulForce to be almost exclusively deconstructionist in it's ecumenical, maybe pantheistic perspective... Ghandi and King each firmly held to completely incompatible beliefs about each others "religion"... They had civil activism in common, and that's about it... SoulForce seems geared to oppose and defend against it's percieved adversaries by undermining their system of beliefs and vulnerable faith, but I see no cohesion of thought as to what to do next to build people back up. -We're all operating under the belief we do what we do for both our own well being and sanity, as well as out of love and concern for humanity as a whole, so world peace is a rather worn out incentive these days...

Are you aware of Dr. King's visit to India fifty years ago? Have you ever read a biography about him? How about he and Loretta's visit to Jamaica laying a wreath at the shrine of Marcus Garvey in Kingston? (Who actually wasn't Christian either.)

What will SF's role be 5-10 years from now when we can marry and force people to outwardly treat us as equals under the law? I know what "you" want people to stop doing to us gays, but what do you want them to DO instead? - Mel White, MLK (and the very Name of this place), presents an implication of being grounded in "Christianity", with a liberal nod to the metaphysical peace makers of other faiths... That was my initial impression, but I've seen -Xtianity treated like, and spoken of in the same way Christians treat and speak of us... Can we only "win" by turning the tables of oppression on our oppressors, in a relentlessly, in your face passive way?

I know what SF stands against; I just have no idea what it stands for... It's ludicrous to suggest "you guys" figure it out, but it is at the core of any constructive criticism I could offer. I think it is why the interest in this organization is waning so much... You'll subvert the need for you if/when you are successful, and we can just get back to arguing about "God" and Johnny still being unable to read... I fear for those gays who's identity and purpose has formed around this fight. What next when they really are used to us and no one cares anymore?

Have you read the Soulforce Vision Statement? It doesn't mention being grounded in Christianity. It certainly doesn't mention any exclusivity. Where is the implication of Christianity?

Ben N. Moore

[awediot]

Hey Jen... You leave Vegas a little money left ;)... Good to hear from you...


What does Soulforce stand for? Love.

Man I'm getting jaded...but, so what? So do it's greatest foes...

"Love", and doing things in it's name, isn't the all purpose silver bullet that automatically softens the blows it alone is capable of delivering square into the heart... I must wonder how some gays will handle the coerced respect others are legally required to demonstrate, if the personal acceptance doesn't naturally accompany it...Or, when our war cry to "...Get used to it!" finally works, and people are used to us...and we've got no boogy man to blame our problems on any more. Some of us have healed to the point where can milk our victimization and have integrated victimhood into our normal justifications for why we are so screwed up.

It's a bass ackward comfort being able to blame the freaky, cloistered and megalomaniacal influence of "THE CHURCH" for doing a number on us. -This isn't to say the damage is not real, but at least it is a familiar and easy target... What when people truly no longer care, and get tired of the whining?

It's not just an organization, it's a cause and it's a community. Real people, real feelings, real problems, real stories, and here real relationships have been created. Lives are literally saved daily because of the things such as the equality ride and Mel White's books. Even more lives are improved because of they know that there is love and support out there for them. When these things happen, it doesn't much matter what the organization is doing 5 years from now if the fights are over. When GLBT people have equal rights, Soulforce can be a part of history or perhaps they'll adopt a new cause.

I can't imagine what having access to the internet and groups like SoulForce could have done for, and to me when I was going insane as a torn apart, teen believer who loved oh so wrongly. A supportive, nurturing and edifying community like this is invaluable to those who need a sanctuary and protected escape for awhile... I am thrilled people have a place like this to come to...

-having said that, I have to say that the shear motive to just love and support a person, is a sweet premise of needed compassion, but it is incomplete and can be shallow to an even greater fault... If a friend comes to you crying about a hurt they have blatantly brought on them self by their stupid and selfish pattern of actions they refuse to admit to, then it may only enable them to continue shamelessly, if we make them feel good about their lousy behavior... Some people SHOULD hurt and feel like dirt for what they do... It is this follow-up philosophy which teaches people to handle and avoid painful realities, that I am curious about SF's stance on.

As a wounded community who has earned some wound licking time, we are pretty bad at self-criticism. As gay people who've experienced a level of rejection and worthlessness no straight person could understand, the want to almost impose "love" onto a society who would only benefit from it is normal... But as just people, we know no one is really helped by being coddled and blindly propped back up to feeling good enough to go do the exact same crap that will just hurt them again and again... We need to let people know they are loved and respected, and hoped the best for, and that they will be called on their bs like a "regular" person, despite being an oppressed and bashed on queer who may find secular normalcy and acceptance doesn't pump up the esteem as much as we hoped it would...

Then what?

...but you're back, something drew you back to this site, so I'm guessing that in your heart you probably agree with me.

Yes and no... I'm as concerned with what gay activism does in my associative name, as I am with what Christians do for the same reason... As both, I do understand the Christian warning that getting ourselves embraced and validated by society is no substitute for being sure we are right with God. As melodramatic and pious as it sounds, my concern lies more with the state of the human being who seeks this place out, than whether their temporary boost of status in a sick world will make gay A-okAY.

We can legally enforce equal treatment when it comes to civil rights. We cannot make people accept or respect us as equals... I fear that many are hinging their self-worth on getting some laws passed, erroneously expecting that to transfer into some change in the hearts which will just keep thinking the abominations are at the gate and taking over the country... Our fight is a noble and just one, but after the celebration, and gay couples must now examine whether or not they really want to marry their current partner, since the law is no longer an excuse, we will at best be invited back aboard a sinking ship... That day will have been worth it if we can keep some perspective on it. It will grant us the same benefits, responsibility, and right to the red tape as the rest of the world is privileged to have to cope with. It won't make us actually be, or feel more loved for long...

I don't want nor have any reason to burst bubbles, and assume the struggle will pay off within a decade at the latest...But I am compelled to deflate a few now, as they have built up some outrageous expectations that no mere new rule could ever fulfill, and they are setting themselves up for an anti-climactic fall... I hope and pray SF is not feeding into that delusion by pinning too much on shifting policies that no one should mistake for a little salvation. Some may find that their problems are far larger than what the umbrella of human rights can heal.

[Matt Algren]

Hey Jen... You leave Vegas a little money left ;)... Good to hear from you...




Man I'm getting jaded...but, so what? So do it's greatest foes...

"Love", and doing things in it's name, isn't the all purpose silver bullet that automatically softens the blows it alone is capable of delivering square into the heart... I must wonder how some gays will handle the coerced respect others are legally required to demonstrate, if the personal acceptance doesn't naturally accompany it...Or, when our war cry to "...Get used to it!" finally works, and people are used to us...and we've got no boogy man to blame our problems on any more. Some of us have healed to the point where can milk our victimization and have integrated victimhood into our normal justifications for why we are so screwed up.

It's a bass ackward comfort being able to blame the freaky, cloistered and megalomaniacal influence of "THE CHURCH" for doing a number on us. -This isn't to say the damage is not real, but at least it is a familiar and easy target... What when people truly no longer care, and get tired of the whining?



I can't imagine what having access to the internet and groups like SoulForce could have done for, and to me when I was going insane as a torn apart, teen believer who loved oh so wrongly. A supportive, nurturing and edifying community like this is invaluable to those who need a sanctuary and protected escape for awhile... I am thrilled people have a place like this to come to...

-having said that, I have to say that the shear motive to just love and support a person, is a sweet premise of needed compassion, but it is incomplete and can be shallow to an even greater fault... If a friend comes to you crying about a hurt they have blatantly brought on them self by their stupid and selfish pattern of actions they refuse to admit to, then it may only enable them to continue shamelessly, if we make them feel good about their lousy behavior... Some people SHOULD hurt and feel like dirt for what they do... It is this follow-up philosophy which teaches people to handle and avoid painful realities, that I am curious about SF's stance on.

As a wounded community who has earned some wound licking time, we are pretty bad at self-criticism. As gay people who've experienced a level of rejection and worthlessness no straight person could understand, the want to almost impose "love" onto a society who would only benefit from it is normal... But as just people, we know no one is really helped by being coddled and blindly propped back up to feeling good enough to go do the exact same crap that will just hurt them again and again... We need to let people know they are loved and respected, and hoped the best for, and that they will be called on their bs like a "regular" person, despite being an oppressed and bashed on queer who may find secular normalcy and acceptance doesn't pump up the esteem as much as we hoped it would...

Then what?



Yes and no... I'm as concerned with what gay activism does in my associative name, as I am with what Christians do for the same reason... As both, I do understand the Christian warning that getting ourselves embraced and validated by society is no substitute for being sure we are right with God. As melodramatic and pious as it sounds, my concern lies more with the state of the human being who seeks this place out, than whether their temporary boost of status in a sick world will make gay A-okAY.

We can legally enforce equal treatment when it comes to civil rights. We cannot make people accept or respect us as equals... I fear that many are hinging their self-worth on getting some laws passed, erroneously expecting that to transfer into some change in the hearts which will just keep thinking the abominations are at the gate and taking over the country... Our fight is a noble and just one, but after the celebration, and gay couples must now examine whether or not they really want to marry their current partner, since the law is no longer an excuse, we will at best be invited back aboard a sinking ship... That day will have been worth it if we can keep some perspective on it. It will grant us the same benefits, responsibility, and right to the red tape as the rest of the world is privileged to have to cope with. It won't make us actually be, or feel more loved for long...

I don't want nor have any reason to burst bubbles, and assume the struggle will pay off within a decade at the latest...But I am compelled to deflate a few now, as they have built up some outrageous expectations that no mere new rule could ever fulfill, and they are setting themselves up for an anti-climactic fall... I hope and pray SF is not feeding into that delusion by pinning too much on shifting policies that no one should mistake for a little salvation. Some may find that their problems are far larger than what the umbrella of human rights can heal.
It sounds like you're questioning the "God's okay with you being gay" thing, and that's a whole different discussion.

As for Nathan's question, I'm wondering if message boards in general are on their way out. There are other ways to reach people and direct the discussion more effectively. Maybe it's time to shut down and try one of those.

[Alecto]

Social networking is the new black, Matt?

[awediot]

It sounds like you're questioning the "God's okay with you being gay" thing, and that's a whole different discussion.

I resolved that a long time ago... I'm just another sinner who's spouting off about those who don't even care anymore what God thinks, and if that is good enough for SF as long as we get our stamp of approval from man.

As for Nathan's question, I'm wondering if message boards in general are on their way out. There are other ways to reach people and direct the discussion more effectively. Maybe it's time to shut down and try one of those.

Yeah, lets make it even quicker, easier to direct and less personal... tweet tweet...

[awediot]

Are you aware of Dr. King's visit to India fifty years ago? Have you ever read a biography about him? How about he and Loretta's visit to Jamaica laying a wreath at the shrine of Marcus Garvey in Kingston? (Who actually wasn't Christian either.)
His reputation as a Christian preacher proceeded him. Some would argue in reality he wasn't... I don't know.




Have you read the Soulforce Vision Statement? It doesn't mention being grounded in Christianity. It certainly doesn't mention any exclusivity. Where is the implication of Christianity?

Ben N. Moore

The use of MLK's image and his reputation, the usual association to "Christianity" when "religious oppression" is mentioned, Mel Whites own concerns... Perhaps it is seen more as the enemy here?

[awediot]

I can see Soulforce working to end religious oppression of GLBT people on a global basis. So yes, when we have full equality here in the USA, which I believe will actually take a long time, then more effort can be put towards gaining equality in other nations.

Exactly how do you think people here are defining that "equality"?

Meanwhile, there will always be a need for people to come and share, talk and debate, encourage and be encouraged. Don't you think?

I don't know... Matt A. said "I'm wondering if message boards in general are on their way out. There are other ways to reach people and direct the discussion more effectively. Maybe it's time to shut down and try one of those."

[Jennifer5]

Hey Jen... You leave Vegas a little money left ;)... Good to hear from you...

Man I'm getting jaded...but, so what? So do it's greatest foes...

We can legally enforce equal treatment when it comes to civil rights. We cannot make people accept or respect us as equals... I fear that many are hinging their self-worth on getting some laws passed, erroneously expecting that to transfer into some change in the hearts which will just keep thinking the abominations are at the gate and taking over the country... Our fight is a noble and just one, but after the celebration, and gay couples must now examine whether or not they really want to marry their current partner, since the law is no longer an excuse, we will at best be invited back aboard a sinking ship... That day will have been worth it if we can keep some perspective on it. It will grant us the same benefits, responsibility, and right to the red tape as the rest of the world is privileged to have to cope with. It won't make us actually be, or feel more loved for long...

I don't want nor have any reason to burst bubbles, and assume the struggle will pay off within a decade at the latest...But I am compelled to deflate a few now, as they have built up some outrageous expectations that no mere new rule could ever fulfill, and they are setting themselves up for an anti-climactic fall... I hope and pray SF is not feeding into that delusion by pinning too much on shifting policies that no one should mistake for a little salvation. Some may find that their problems are far larger than what the umbrella of human rights can heal.
Boy I've missed you! Vegas didn't get any money from me, I went empty handed... and the gambling age is 21 in NV. Anyway...

Yeah, you're a little jaded if you're about to underestimate the power of a loving community. Love is all there really is in this world, it's the only thing that will ever bring true happiness.

Perhaps you're right, there may be a handful of people out there that are blaming their lack of rights for all of their problems. Those people might want to talk to a therapist because they have bigger things to deal with.

From what I see though, most people are not asking for the law to tell them they can love someone, we're asking for the commitment that allows use to stand by our loved one's sides no matter what and take care of them. The legal right to marry brings a lot of benefits and a lot of responsibilities. People want the commitment that makes them work things out in those moments when we want to walk away. Without a legal tie, it's too easy to walk away. With children, it's easier to adopt if you are married and if you do split, there is protection for those kids. Changing the laws and changing hearts are two different battles.

As for changing hearts, we can't force anything. If you could force love it wouldn't be what it is. What you can do is increase awareness and hope that those who hate will realize that there is nothing to hate. Hearts change over time.


It sounds like you're questioning the "God's okay with you being gay" thing, and that's a whole different discussion.

As for Nathan's question, I'm wondering if message boards in general are on their way out. There are other ways to reach people and direct the discussion more effectively. Maybe it's time to shut down and try one of those.
Awe is a little off topic, but not really because he's talking about the way the forums affect the community and some concerns he has regarding certain things.

Shut it down? I called that going one step forward, two steps back. I think these forums have a lot to offer and by just being here people can benefit from them. When someone needs them just send out that cry for support and they come back to life for a while.

[Matt Algren]

Social networking is the new black, Matt?
No, no. Social networking is the new gay. Gay was the new black. Before that, it was, I don't know, gingers.
I resolved that a long time ago... I'm just another sinner who's spouting off about those who don't even care anymore what God thinks, and if that is good enough for SF as long as we get our stamp of approval from man.
I have no idea what you're on about. I'm okay with that, since I'm pretty sure you're just trying to get a rise.

Yeah, lets make it even quicker, easier to direct and less personal... tweet tweet...
I didn't mention twitter, and that's not what I was talking about. Twitter is certainly no replacement for complex philosophical discourse, but it's a good tool for getting the word out if you use it right.

I don't know... Matt A. said "I'm wondering if message boards in general are on their way out. There are other ways to reach people and direct the discussion more effectively. Maybe it's time to shut down and try one of those."
You'll notice that I didn't say anything about stopping people from sharing, talking, debating, encouraging, and being encouraged.

[BruceChris]

I get enough time to compose something that makes sense, to me at least. Yet I feel that I've gotten close to some pretty nice people, and most of them/you keep coming back. And we could always use more postings.

Namaste', Bruce Chris

[Rick336]

.......there will always be a need for people to come and share, talk and debate, encourage and be encouraged. Don't you think?

I agree. After all, isn't that what a public forum is about? Sharing ideas, debating issues, and talking about current events.

Rick

[bnmoore]

The use of MLK's image and his reputation, the usual association to "Christianity" when "religious oppression" is mentioned, Mel Whites own concerns... Perhaps it is seen more as the enemy here?

What I meant was there was no mention of Christianity in the Vision Statement or any of the Credos on the 4 Steps page. I know very little about Mel White. I was under the impression that Soulforce was interfaith mostly from the way the Credos were worded. Gandhi's image is also on the home page.

Also it seems that the majority of replies I've gotten to my posts were from people of other faiths or paths.

As far as religious oppression goes I have no reason to be in denial about where it's coming from in the USA.

Ben N. Moore

[awediot]

What I meant was there was no mention of Christianity in the Vision Statement or any of the Credos on the 4 Steps page. I know very little about Mel White. I was under the impression that Soulforce was interfaith mostly from the way the Credos were worded. Gandhi's image is also on the home page.

Also it seems that the majority of replies I've gotten to my posts were from people of other faiths or paths.

As far as religious oppression goes I have no reason to be in denial about where it's coming from in the USA.

Ben N. Moore

Where? ...

[Jennifer5]

What I meant was there was no mention of Christianity in the Vision Statement or any of the Credos on the 4 Steps page. I know very little about Mel White. I was under the impression that Soulforce was interfaith mostly from the way the Credos were worded. Gandhi's image is also on the home page.

Also it seems that the majority of replies I've gotten to my posts were from people of other faiths or paths.

As far as religious oppression goes I have no reason to be in denial about where it's coming from in the USA.

Ben N. Moore
Yes, this site welcomes people with all different faiths and while Soulforce I believe holds christian values, it is not christian.

[awediot]

Yes, this site welcomes people with all different faiths and while Soulforce I believe holds christian values, it is not christian.

Is it anti-Christian?

[Gennee]

Awediot, how would yo improve Soulforce?

Gennee
:love:

[drobs]

Got a thought on the user defaults of the forum. I think you would keep more new members if had "Instant Email Notification" set as a default in the "Default Thread Subscription Mode" in the user CP.

A new user could still turn that off if they wanted to but it should be on from the get go. This would could help prevent new users from posting once on the forum and then never coming back.

[Jennifer5]

Got a thought on the user defaults of the forum. I think you would keep more new members if had "Instant Email Notification" set as a default in the "Default Thread Subscription Mode" in the user CP.

A new user could still turn that off if they wanted to but it should be on from the get go. This would could help prevent new users from posting once on the forum and then never coming back.
Maybe it's not default, but I'm pretty sure I have what you're describing. I love it.

[Daniel]

Nathan- I read this thread title a few days ago and have thought about your question since then. Frankly, I don't have a ready answer. My thoughts run to Soulforce proper. That is, I believe that what happens here is inextricably bound up with what is happening with in the 3D world- and what Soulforce is doing there.

I got an email recently about the ERide that is being planned. In years past, when a Ride would that place, the forum would get a heavy amount of traffic, especially from those schools that were very conservative. However, curiously, that didn't seem to happen during the last Ride. Why? One reason may be that this past ERide was organized very effectively.

I would hope that this forum would always have a place- a voice- a presence. My own sense is that participation here is in transition.

When I joined, there was a greater emphasis on the methods of non-violence. If there is one thing I would like to see more of, it is a way to highlight this work- getting back to Soulforce's roots.

[awediot]

- getting back to Soulforce's roots.

THAT is what I'm trying to...dredge up. What are SoulForces roots?


Freedom for lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgendered people from religious & political repression through the practice of relentless nonviolent resistance.

When I read this, I agree. I understand and live it... It expresses the the ideal, peaceful fight back the world demands of us at times...

At it's core, it is defensive. It correctly presumes the repression and has been forced to resist it for it's own health and well being... But when one makes it a point to inform their oppressors that a resistance is at hand, even our defenses can morph into a passive aggression when we must shout from the mountain tops to just be left alone and treated like a normal person, who shouts stuff in the mountains...

It is the means, not the goal, which is hazy, disagreed on and convoluted... As any activists organization, they are also, and should be, suspect... -As in my "Will you settle for 'Civil union's?", I can't say a cohesive "SoulForce" answer. What does THIS organization want? It's an elemental question. Is "equality" meant to be taken as "under the law", or just as esteemed and respected as everyone else? How these are answered impact the different purpose and wants, and needs people have tied to this fight.

>edit: and Daniel, if you're still ignoring this/me that's fine. I'll post to and around you to the others, and lurkers...Your loss.

[awediot]

Awediot, how would yo improve Soulforce?

Gennee
:love:

I would at least acknowledge the incompatibilities between Gandhi's and MLK's core beliefs... The image of the two is blatantly ironic in some ways, the civil fight aside. SF cannot set the civil fight aside or those differences rise up quickly... This seems a really uncomfortable thing to bring up. -I would invite it.

[Daniel]

THAT is what I'm trying to...dredge up. What are SoulForces roots?


Freedom for lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgendered people from religious & political repression through the practice of relentless nonviolent resistance.

When I read this, I agree. I understand and live it... It expresses the the ideal, peaceful fight back the world demands of us at times...

At it's core, it is defensive. It correctly presumes the repression and has been forced to resist it for it's own health and well being... But when one makes it a point to inform their oppressors that a resistance is at hand, even our defenses can morph into a passive aggression when we must shout from the mountain tops to just be left alone and treated like a normal person, who shouts stuff in the mountains...

It is the means, not the goal, which is hazy, disagreed on and convoluted... As any activists organization, they are also, and should be, suspect... -As in my "Will you settle for 'Civil union's?", I can't say a cohesive "SoulForce" answer. What does THIS organization want? It's an elemental question. Is "equality" meant to be taken as "under the law", or just as esteemed and respected as everyone else? How these are answered impact the different purpose and wants, and needs people have tied to this fight.

>edit: and Daniel, if you're still ignoring this/me that's fine. I'll post to and around you to the others, and lurkers...Your loss.

You declared yourself quite clearly when you returned here- fresh from being banned at CHARM, jokingly saying that you aimed to raise some hell.

I'll still be involved on CARM after my ban, but something is calling me back here (uh oh) to raise some hell...

Well....you have, haven't you?

Happy now?

I fail to see what this has to do with non-violence, which you claim to have been enamored with after first arriving here years ago.

Jen makes a very salient point. Your world does sound very lonely. You seem to excel in pushing people away- all in the name of Christ. Living by the sword are you? Not enough drama in our day-to-day life? Or perhaps there is too much drama? And this is your way of working it out? At your reader's expense?

All I know is that every time I interact with you I am left with a bad taste in my mouth.

Yep. Back on ignore you go. I have better things to do that be drawn into arguments with you.

[Matt Algren]

"Here" can mean different things...There are certainly different levels and types of discussions going on. Some do have general answers based on wildly accepted principles. Others are black and white, all or nothing, quite relevant and personal dilemmas.
By "here" I meant in the specific discussion of Soulforce's stance. I apologize for being unclear.
You declared yourself quite clearly when you returned here- fresh from being banned at CHARM, jokingly saying that you aimed to raise some hell.
Ah. I missed that. No idea what CHARM is, but this bit of information clears up a LOT.

[awediot]

You declared yourself quite clearly when you returned here- fresh from being banned at CHARM, jokingly saying that you aimed to raise some hell.



Well....you have, haven't you?

Happy now?

I fail to see what this has to do with non-violence, which you claim to have been enamored with after first arriving here years ago.

Jen makes a very salient point. Your world does sound very lonely. You seem to excel in pushing people away- all in the name Christ. Living by the sword are you? Not enough drama in our day-to-day life? Or perhaps there is too much drama? And this is your way of working it out? At your reader's expense?

All I know is that every time I interact with you I am left with a bad taste in my mouth.

Yep. Back on ignore you go. I have better things to do that be drawn into arguments with you.

With those pointed, simple questions about SF, all you can answer with is presumptuous personal attacks?

[awediot]

A belief in separation. Or nowhere actually. Koi paraga?

Ben N. Moore

So just ignore that there is separation and it all goes away eh?

[awediot]

By "here" I meant in the specific discussion of Soulforce's stance. I apologize for being unclear.

What is SF's stance? Do "You" want civil liberty, or demand total equivocation into society?

Ah. I missed that. No idea what CHARM is, but this bit of information clears up a LOT.

Seems by it's own observation, this forum in transition needs something.

[awediot]

I'm very very sorry, your world sounds very lonely. The love is genuine if it wasn't, it wouldn't be what we all lived for. There are no bad intentions on the part of any of the Soulforce members that I have gotten to know, we all sincerely care about our friends and loved ones.

My world is not so lonely when I don't limit my love and caring to my loved ones... I don't know anyone with bad intentions.

I agree with tdogg, if you feel this way.. what the hell are you doing here? I know that you're not just here to stir the pot, because you know how and you're not doing it. Even when you do, it's fine because you do it in a good way that gets us all talking. You're here for you though, it was selfish to come back... because I know you didn't do it for any of us, especially since you don't seem to think that we're doing anything worthwhile.

No need to exaggerate... I'm curious what SF is doing in my gay name, and if I want to support it or not.

I sincerely wish that I could give you a hug right now because you sound like someone that has forgotten what that feels like. I love you as the friend that you are D. :love: One these forums, I'm probably not the only one either, but to you it's not enough?

Hugs are great, but this isn't preschool. It is a struggle to redefine "family" on the planet, to invoke a paradigm shift. Don't underestimate what is going on here or the profound impact you are trying to make...and don't assume the methods being used are all good just because you get a lot of hugs...

[Matt Algren]

Suddenly I understand Mr. Miyagi a lot better.

[awediot]

Suddenly I understand Mr. Miyagi a lot better.Fascinating.

[keltic63]

With those pointed, simple questions about SF, all you can answer with is presumptuous personal attacks?

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[awediot]

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[Jennifer5]

I would at least acknowledge the incompatibilities between Gandhi's and MLK's core beliefs... The image of the two is blatantly ironic in some ways, the civil fight aside. SF cannot set the civil fight aside or those differences rise up quickly... This seems a really uncomfortable thing to bring up. -I would invite it.
I know the some of the basics of what MLK has done and I see a lot of similarities between what he did and what we're trying to do. I think looking back on things he did, we could learn a lot more in fact. I'm not familiar very with Gandhi. This is an uncomfortable topic for some perhaps, but why don't we have it anyway? I think it would be incredibly interesting.

Jen makes a very salient point. Your world does sound very lonely. You seem to excel in pushing people away- all in the name of Christ. Living by the sword are you? Not enough drama in our day-to-day life? Or perhaps there is too much drama? And this is your way of working it out? At your reader's expense?
I really enjoy his presence though. I don't think he's raising hell, I think he's stirring the pot a little. Something that we need. For me, the arguments we've had here were the best, you learn a lot from them.

My world is not so lonely when I don't limit my love and caring to my loved ones... I don't know anyone with bad intentions.
No one should limit their love to just their loved ones, but that can be very hard to do. I admire that in you.

No need to exaggerate... I'm curious what SF is doing in my gay name, and if I want to support it or not.
Fair enough. The way I see it, SoulForce does more soul healing then anything else. I would hope we would help change things legally too, we'll see. What do you think SF is doing?


Hugs are great, but this isn't preschool. It is a struggle to redefine "family" on the planet, to invoke a paradigm shift. Don't underestimate what is going on here or the profound impact you are trying to make...and don't assume the methods being used are all good just because you get a lot of hugs...
Hugs don't become out dated in preschool. Hugs for those who feel lost and scared has a lot to do with redefining family. Why? Because love is what makes a family. We want to represent family, we need to represent love.

The methods here may not be perfect, but from what I see they work. Is any other group of this size accomplishing as much as we do? I wouldn't say that our way is the only right way just because of the hugs. I would say that any approach used that leaves you feeling alone in a fight like this doesn't make any sense. Is there a middle?

[bnmoore]

I would at least acknowledge the incompatibilities between Gandhi's and MLK's core beliefs... The image of the two is blatantly ironic in some ways, the civil fight aside. SF cannot set the civil fight aside or those differences rise up quickly... This seems a really uncomfortable thing to bring up. -I would invite it.

Since they're both dead you can't really ask them what their core beliefs are. All we have is what they left behind. Dr. King was a Baptist Minister. In a prior post I was referring to Marcus Garvey not being a Christian not Dr. King.

We have Dr. King's own words from his speeches and letters. He seemed to have deep respect for Gandhi's faith.

I don't know if you'll find it helpful or not. Here's a link to some Ebeneezer Baptist History:

http://www.historicebenezer.org/History.html

Here's some of my favorite Gandhi quotes:

http://www.godweb.org/Gandhi.htm

Personally I don't find them to be philosophical opposites.

If you are completely married to the idea of your faith being the only true one that's okay. Some of us are not. You are absolutely free to believe as you wish.

I could quote verses from the Bhagavad Gita, the Vedas, the Upanishads, the Qu'ran, the Christian Bible, or the Dhammapada in my posts but some people might find that annoying.

My personal feeling is that a multi-faith forum is not the place to proselytize. Of course in my faith there's nothing to be converted from/to. You may have a different opinion.

Ben N. Moore

[bnmoore]

So just ignore that there is separation and it all goes away eh?
There's none that you don't put there through you own belief. In what are you placing your faith (belief)?

Ben N. Moore

[drobs]

Maybe it's not default, but I'm pretty sure I have what you're describing. I love it.


Here's what I mean.
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2629/3706888790_d495c2c77a.jpg?v=0

I'm a member of a couple forums mostly technical - hobby related. Some I join just to protect my screen name and I then forget I ever joined them. With the above as a default there is less of a chance for some one new to forget they joined this site.

Funny thing, before coming over here, I updated my Facebook page. Forgot I even had one till I got an email from Facebook.

[awediot]

There's none that you don't put there through you own belief.

My "belief" doesn't create elemental reality. My belief must conform to it, or be wrong... An unwitnessed tree falling is just as noisy... Dissect the bunnies brain who's den it demolished, and see what what was encoded. Bet it was loud and frightening and killed one of her kits... Physics doesn't hinge on my perception of it, and neither of us disappear when the other isn't looking.



In what are you placing your faith (belief)?

Ben N. Moore

Absolute truth, which pushes me beyond mere faith.

-and I don't see faith and belief as interchangeable.

[awediot]

I know the some of the basics of what MLK has done and I see a lot of similarities between what he did and what we're trying to do. I think looking back on things he did, we could learn a lot more in fact. I'm not familiar very with Gandhi. This is an uncomfortable topic for some perhaps, but why don't we have it anyway? I think it would be incredibly interesting.

Yokay... Ghandi is in quote marks. The Bible blue.

"I call myself a Sanatani Hindu, because I believe in the Vedas, the Upanishads, the Puranas, and all that goes by the name of Hindu scripture, and therefore in avataras and rebirth;"

-And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

"I worship God as Truth only. I have not yet found Him, but I am seeking after Him."

-Seek and ye shall find.

"I regard Jesus as a great teacher of humanity, but I do not regard him as the only begotten son of God. That epithet in its material interpretation is quite unacceptable... God cannot be the exclusive Father and I cannot ascribe exclusive divinity to Jesus"

-Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me... I and my Father are one.


Now, keep in mind I am a queer and one flipping whacked heretic according to most of my own "brethren", with my own lees than traditional thoughts on my own Xtianity. -those above represent aspects of the diametrically opposed differences...especially concerning Christ... The questions and elemental disagreements tear the world apart... SF "manages" them.


I really enjoy his presence though. I don't think he's raising hell, I think he's stirring the pot a little. Something that we need. For me, the arguments we've had here were the best, you learn a lot from them. http://planetsmilies.net/angry-smiley-7990.gifhttp://www.websmileys.com/sm/fingers/fing14.gifhttp://www.clicksmilies.com/s1106/spezial/Fool/hb.gif




No one should limit their love to just their loved ones, but that can be very hard to do. I admire that in you.Pity the people who are so dreadful, they can make you hate them. Then love them anyway.


Fair enough. The way I see it, SoulForce does more soul healing then anything else. I would hope we would help change things legally too, we'll see. What do you think SF is doing?...heh..read my Will you settle for "civil unions"? (http://www.soulforce.org/forums/showthread.php?t=6418) and you tell me...My jury is still deliberating.


Hugs don't become out dated in preschool. Hugs for those who feel lost and scared has a lot to do with redefining family. Why? Because love is what makes a family. We want to represent family, we need to represent love. Hugsuck.

The methods here may not be perfect, but from what I see they work. Is any other group of this size accomplishing as much as we do? I wouldn't say that our way is the only right way just because of the hugs. I would say that any approach used that leaves you feeling alone in a fight like this doesn't make any sense. Is there a middle?You see SoulForce as both "healing" and as "law changing"...primarily healing... The thing is, changing the law, not healing nor needing healed, is largely why we're here. That is why the question as to equality under the law, and/or equal respect and love and acceptance into the straight world as a whole, is an important distinction... I think SF invites people in on a political premise and finds itself in a more philosophical realm than it has a mission for... As you've said, "Love" is The Virtue. Period... But we can and do hurt the ones we love, not to mention shun (since hate's bad), and "love" branches and peels into odd layers that proves it is not in fact, all we need.

Is there a middle? No...there are no two equally powerful, opposing sides to create a "middle" or balance... Think of it more like a moth and flame. It can fly away from the only source of warmth and truth, light and love, away from God, but it chills, and dims the further it gets...

The world at large is "outgrowing" "Christianity" with an intent and openness like never before. Christians are beginning to be blatantly stereotyped, demoralized and mocked, as a backlash is starting to swell... just like we were told it would be... That is bigger than SoulForce. Sf is important. Life is critical.

[Matt Algren]

changing the law, not healing nor needing healed, is largely why we're here
Are we? Who is we?

[awediot]

Are we? Who is we?

Whoever is comfortable enough with their self to be active in the fight... The majority here. I think most like the hugs, but that is not their purpose for coming here.

[offog]

From Matt: "As for Nathan's question, I'm wondering if message boards in general are on their way out. There are other ways to reach people and direct the discussion more effectively. Maybe it's time to shut down and try one of those. "

I disagree with Matt as well. I find forums like this one very informative, useful, and fun. I discovered blogging and twittering a little over a year ago, and it took me this long to work up the nerve to post my own bit of blogging. I chose the Soulforce site because the people her are so nice. I would really hate to lose.

I'm a middle-aged white straight woman who supports the cause, and I depend on the Soulforce site to help me keep in touch with GLBT issues.

[Jennifer5]

You see SoulForce as both "healing" and as "law changing"...primarily healing... The thing is, changing the law, not healing nor needing healed, is largely why we're here. That is why the question as to equality under the law, and/or equal respect and love and acceptance into the straight world as a whole, is an important distinction... I think SF invites people in on a political premise and finds itself in a more philosophical realm than it has a mission for... As you've said, "Love" is The Virtue. Period... But we can and do hurt the ones we love, not to mention shun (since hate's bad), and "love" branches and peels into odd layers that proves it is not in fact, all we need.
It's been a long day, I'll read your thread soon.

I keep getting caught up on the wrong part of this discussion because I think that love is the main point, I think it is pretty much all we need.

I think we're fighting for both legal rights and respect and love. Legal rights help a lot with the later. Without the love and respect, the legal portion doesn't mean a whole lot though (well, to me it wouldn't).


Whoever is comfortable enough with their self to be active in the fight... The majority here. I think most like the hugs, but that is not their purpose for coming here.

Well, it depends on the person. I come to Soulforce for a couple reasons... I want to be part of the fight for equal rights, the fight for loved one's rights. I also come for a lot of personal reasons though, the members here have been incredibly supportive when I've needed help.

Originally though, I was draw to Soulforce because of all of the two wonderful men that I met the first time I was introduced to SF, Mel and Gary. Talking to Gary who was a sweetheart, was the only reason that I wanted to hear what Mel had to say. It was the beginning of the challenging years that would follow and that day was very comforting. The people, the support that I get, the support that I am given the opportunity to share, those are what have kept me here.

[keltic63]

ok, this thread is open again, I've tried to clean up the off-topic stuff, but it was getting to the point that I'd just have to reduce it to one page.

the posts that were removed have been placed in a new thread "Leftovers from the suggestion box" (http://www.soulforce.org/forums/showthread.php?t=6486) in the FOYER

[NathanATX]

I've updated the initial post.

[tymejumper]

Do you have an idea for the Soulforce Forums? Post it here!

What features would you like to see?

What would build community? be fun? further the mission of Soulforce?

Thanks for the feedback!

I think it would be great to have people identify, if they feel comfortable what area of the country they are in. Like say you are in Fla. People from that portion of the country could all ID as such and then post about what is happening in their portion of the country with gay rights, etc.

I am from MI so people looking to travel around here could PM me or visit a forum for that part of the country and find out things pertaining to that part of the country. The laws, the best gay spots the general feel, the gay friendly towns, etc. If we had a forum like that where we could find out things I think it could be a great thing.

[NathanATX]

I think it would be great to have people identify, if they feel comfortable what area of the country they are in. Like say you are in Fla. People from that portion of the country could all ID as such and then post about what is happening in their portion of the country with gay rights, etc.

I am from MI so people looking to travel around here could PM me or visit a forum for that part of the country and find out things pertaining to that part of the country. The laws, the best gay spots the general feel, the gay friendly towns, etc. If we had a forum like that where we could find out things I think it could be a great thing.

Great idea! If you look at the top right of each post, you should see the poster's state/location if they have posted it.

But there is certainly an opportunity for development of this idea...
Maybe an area of the forums that is broken up by region... or a monthly conference call or web conference for a state/region...

We could designate regional leaders who could be responsible for recruiting new members, updating the Forums on local lgbt news, organizing regional social activities, maybe being trained as a regional volunteer representative of soulforce...

[NathanATX]

I would love to see some facebook/myspace/etc. social-networking inter-activity features... "click here to post link to thread on facebook" or something...

[Jennifer5]

Great idea! If you look at the top right of each post, you should see the poster's state/location if they have posted it.

But there is certainly an opportunity for development of this idea...
Maybe an area of the forums that is broken up by region... or a monthly conference call or web conference for a state/region...

We could designate regional leaders who could be responsible for recruiting new members, updating the Forums on local lgbt news, organizing regional social activities, maybe being trained as a regional volunteer representative of soulforce...
Interesting, because I think that something of that sort would really attract people to the site. I would ask my uncle to join, because he would be very helpful when it came to doing actual updating and would probably have a lot of people he would refer to the site. IF we did that. :)