Where's Richard Lindsay?

[Venari]

For those of you who don’t know Richard Lindsay is the man who vowed to do one better then the Gospel and not shake the dust from his feet (http://www.equalityride.com/article.php?article_id=241) and blocked the entrance to NCU's cafeteria.

Today when I was at NCU with some fellow students and someone noticed and pointed out that Richard Lindsay was no where to be found. We briefly discussed why the Equality Ride was not taken seriously. Mostly because antics like that of Lindsay making a scene for the cameras then not really following though with it then topped with the claiming to do one better then the teachings of Jesus. (Those of your of Pentecostal background will get this last part and why people now mock his actions.)

It’s sad to say that what could have been a wonderful day of communal outreach has become a day of joking. :'( :mad: :rolleyes: :'(

-Venari

[Daniel]

a·gent pro·vo·ca·teur (?-zhäN' prô-vô'kä-tœr')

[French : agent, agent + provocateur, instigator.]

A person employed to associate with suspected individuals or groups with the purpose of inciting them to commit acts that will make them liable to punishment.

And who will be doing the punishment here I wonder?

Come on Venari- get a grip and get on with life, ok?

[Daniel]

He's probably at home in bed, snuggling with his boyfriend. Or out at a movie, or getting home from an evening service and fellowship afterwards.

Look. I know I'm being a bit over the top. But what do you care? Really. And to this reader it seems all you're doing is engaging in some antics of your own.

The horse is dead. Time to get off off the horse and stop beating it.

Mocking?

Well. You said it. I didn't.

[Venari]

I guess you have your opinion. I am just sharing what the view at NCU currently is ... that is SF has become a joke.

-Venari

[Venari]

Also, I an actually upset over what the day has become. Where my community openly mocks fellow GLBT Christians. Maybe next time there will be more thought put into words and actions.

-Venari

ps
I thought I would post twice too.

[Daniel]

I can read you know.

The title of this thread is provocative and is meant to hold the person in question up to ridicule. If you don't share the view of those at your school who think the ERide's presence was a joke, then you could have said so- here on the forum and to your supposed friends So far, you haven't.

Now. You're upset? Please. "The Lady doth protest too much."

It seems you want to be the mediator- to what- nasty gossip?

[Venari]

I think his actions were ridiculous and over the top, a feeling shared by many other students. So now that the "Where's Richard" jokes, kind of like "Where's Waldo," has reached a great many students I felt it was necessary to point out the absurdity of his actions so later such actions can be avoided and him and SF wont be the butt of any more jokes.

Namely not claiming to "one-up the Bible" and if you do still make a claim like that you had better do something better then blocking students from entering the cafeteria… then waltzing away at the end of the day.

Also, at this point many student leaders are turned off to the prospect of meeting with members of SF/ER. My job now is less of mediating understanding with the students then repairing the bridge the ER dropped a torch on when they left... as is the perception at NCU.

-Venari

[awediot]

Big, deserved OUCH, Venari...

I really hope you are wrong. But I doubt that you are... Many saw a lesson or two on the horizon. I for one appreciate your carefully worded wisdom for the future...

[keltic63]

It’s sad to say that what could have been a wonderful day of communal outreach has become a day of joking. :'( :mad: :rolleyes: :'(

-Venari

and how is this "joking" helping the lgbt students there at NCU? what about the lgbt students in the closet? are you part of the crowd that is making the jokes? is it only poking fun at SoulForce? does it also cross over to making fun of homosexuals?

[Venari]

and how is this "joking" helping the lgbt students there at NCU? what about the lgbt students in the closet? are you part of the crowd that is making the jokes? is it only poking fun at SoulForce? does it also cross over to making fun of homosexuals?

No, I would say the joking is purely at the expense of Soulforce and the Equality Ride. Many of the closeted students I have come to know are some of the people making most of the jokes. The side effect now is there is a BIG discredit given to any group that would speak for GLBT, namely GLBT student right, in the eyes of most of the students at NCU.



-Venari

[tdogg]

Venari

As you previously posted, you anticipated the Equality Ride visit to your school to be a failure and at best a setback to supposed 'open minds' and 'change'. Then, the ER riders came, and your posts indicate that you feel their visit was the failure you anticipated (we very often set ourselves up for what we anticipate, either consciously or unconsiously). Now you say that change and open minds are set back and the students are joking (I'm assuming that you don't know all the students at NCU). So, basically you anticipated the ER being a failure and didn't want them to come, they came and now you say the visit was a failure and the ER is a joke to various students. This is called a reaction.

So, instead of reacting - how about some proaction. Instead of joking and talking about how bad the ER visit was, how about finding some positive pro active things to do - at the very least, the ER visit with all its supposed failures should be plenty to open the door to further discussion regarding the issues at hand. You can look at what went wrong both on the end of the ER'ers and on the end of the NCU students and faculty. Trust me, the NCU students and teachers are not the innocent victims in this. It takes all sides to bring positive dicussion. True equality fighters don't let one small event bring their actions to a complete halt. Be the mature adult I know you are and lead your fellow students to a positive pro active level to deal with the issues at hand. You have the power to either sit back and complain or to stand up and do something. I think we are all aware of how you feel about the ER - now tell us what you intend to do about making the staff and students more aware of GLBT issues and true equality for everyone at the school.

[keltic63]

No, I would say the joking is purely at the expense of Soulforce and the Equality Ride. Many of the closeted students I have come to know are some of the people making most of the jokes. The side effect now is there is a BIG discredit given to any group that would speak for GLBT, namely GLBT student right, in the eyes of most of the students at NCU.



-Venari

I don't see how any of that is healthy, and I don't see that as the fault of the ER. As a matter of fact, since the closeted students are making fun of the ER, doesn't it seem as if they are doing it to distance themselves from glbt people? I mean, closeted gay people often make homophobic jokes so that they themselves are not suspected of being gay. is it possible that all the jokes about ER are being said to accomplish the same thing?

so, what are you doing to bring about healthy change on campus?

and as a side note, I am bothered by a group of christian college students "making fun" of another group of people. something doesn't sit right about that.

[Daniel]

Be the mature adult I know you are and lead your fellow students to a positive pro active level to deal with the issues at hand. You have the power to either sit back and complain or to stand up and do something.

Venari- If there ever was a line in the sand. This is it. Tdogg has stated the matter perfectly. Either you step up to the plate (yes- I'm mixing metaphors) or you don't. The choice is yours.

No more dodgeball either.

[Venari]

Venari- If there ever was a line in the sand. This is it. Tdogg has stated the matter perfectly. Either you step up to the plate (yes- I'm mixing metaphors) or you don't. The choice is yours.

No more dodgeball either.

I am stepping to the plate... or as my friend put it placing my neck on the chopping block.

I came here to illustrate the deep division that has occurred as a result of the 17th of April. Many GLB students feel like SF is weak and ineffective and the jokes are being told among students who are out to each other but not the general student body. The "Where’s Richard Lindsay" is more of a metaphor of how SF/ER came to make a change but only was here a day leaving not leaving the students any real resources to effect that change.

All that said. I am organizing as many GLB fellow students as I can to create a stronger base to influence the school, yes I know sounds like a union. At this time many of the students, gay and straight, have such a negative view of SF/ER with the sincere belief the visit to NCU was a publicity stunt to raise money and not really help us.

So I ask where is Richard Lindsay? He’s not here, at NCU, offering to help the GLB students make the transition to have a louder and stronger voice on campus.

-Venari

PS.
I do apologize if it seems I am picking of Mr. Lindsay, I have never interacted with him on any level and I am sure he is kind and well intended. But he placed himself as the target by starting the door blocking incident which is the root of much of the ridicule

[awediot]

What the :mad: ? I understand defending this site and the good work it (usually) does, but how about a little self-critique here? What Venari is stating unfortunately makes perfect sense and Christian or not, a bunch of college students ripping on some group is not particularly mind blowing. Sounds like hes doing what he can on that end, how about a little reflection to see what and where things just might have gone better on this one? :confused:


"Namely not claiming to "one-up the Bible" ... I recall him saying basically this and at the time found it rather over the top... anyone else?

[dewdrop_world]

I hear what awediot is saying, don't have time to get into it now (at work).

Who is it on this site who has the Gandhi quote in his sig? Maybe Joe B.?

"First they laugh at you. Then they fight you. Then you win."

James

[Venari]

I hear what awediot is saying, don't have time to get into it now (at work).

Who is it on this site who has the Gandhi quote in his sig? Maybe Joe B.?

"First they laugh at you. Then they fight you. Then you win."

James

As harsh as my current "tactics" seem to be that is what I am trying to point out ... self reflection is necessary for everyone involved on any level.

But I don’t think the quote from Gandhi is accurate in this case ... NCU was fighting, now we’re laughing and some are still fighting ... I don’t think anyone is going to "win" in an atmosphere like that.

-Venari

[Zerbie]

What's dumbfounding about this thread is, I don't see precisely what of real substance we are arguing over. It seems to be a nit-picky argument about who is making jokes about whom and a re-hashing of the beaten horse, the door-blocking incident.

Can we clarify what everyone's intentions/goals are on this point? Venari, especially, as the OP, - can you clarify the problem? You have a tendency to make a complaint or a judgment about the failure of Soulforce or the Ride, without bringing us your ideas for how else to go about things. You might not have seen it, but I asked you a question on another thread about that local Soulforce group you said you checked out that turned you off so much to SF. I would like to know why. What was said/done at that local SF meeting that turned you off so much? If you want to help us, please do. Telling us what turned you off to those people might be of real help to us.

I for one don't know how to take many of Venari's posts, but it is worth considering, folks, that it's entirely possible that some of "our" activists *might* be going about things in the "wrong" way. Or perhaps it is the right way, and this kind of reaction is an inevitability. But it is OUR job as supporters to evaluate which of those possibilities the case may be. Just because the belief or the heart is in the "right" place doesn't mean that actions are being brought about in the most effective of ways. Granted, I too see the established pattern to Venari's posts. But if/when he has something of substance to bring to his critique of SF we should listen to him and evaluate if there might be some truth behind it. Find the middle, it has to be there.

[Venari]

Thank you for your comments Zerbie.

That is my intention with this post. I am trying to best represent the current attitude/atmosphere at NCU. Wither you agree or disagree with what I have to say. This come to a matter of being a "double edged sword” I can come here and present what is going on and being said at the risk of offending and alienating people here. Paired with that is generating the understanding of how NCU has and is changing as a result of the visit.

I haven’t said anything for weeks because I waited for things to settle down and see how things will pan out. This brings me to this recent post. From actions like claiming to one up the Bible then no further interaction of with the school SF/ER is looked at like a joke and the view has solidified that this was only a publicity stunt and an effort at fund raising.

Right or wrong this is how things are, what I am trying to do is sort though it hoping that maybe next time someone will think though their actions better or there will be more follow though on the part of Soulforce and the Equality Ride.

Could I have worded my post better, probably. But then with better working the feeling of division between the students, GLB and allied, and groups like Soulforce would not have been conveyed as well.

-Venari

[Zerbie]

Very interesting.

I like very much the idea of follow-through. Too much of what I've been involved in myself - and I'm NOT talking about SF, I've never been involved with SF yet - (I mean like local groups holding rallies, one day awareness events) have been one time only events. There is no sense of continuity with them, and that frustrates me.

Now, bear in mind all I ever did with Soulforce was upload an avatar and join this forum, so I can't speak for the group in any capacity. But my personal sense when I saw the scope of the ER was that the focus seemed almost too broad. I wonder if SF would consider trying to establish some ongoing dialogue with a fair degree of depth at a few of those schools (or other organizations)? That's just the opinion of some random person who joined the forum, not that it counts for anything. I get the sense that SF is about direct action, not about long term mediating or lobbying. What do I know?

Venari, would you please tell us what it was about your local SF meeting that turned you off to the group?

[Venari]

Venari, would you please tell us what it was about your local SF meeting that turned you off to the group?

This is a personal matter I do not feel comfortable discussing in a public forum. Part of it was the broader interactions I had with the local supporters and the local people who had set them selves up to be the leader.

I do think Soulforce is in a place to effect great change. I do also believe the means in which they attempt to effect these changes are ineffective and leave too much open to "back lashes." That is supporting GLBT students at Christian Universities is a necessity... but copying something that worked in the 60's shows no real means to a change and only is an effort to copy what another had done in hopes it will work as well for you.

So I say I my view have changed and I was proven wrong. The visit to NCU was not as disastrous as I had thought it would be. But now the GLB students are left in a limbo of being empowered but with no one to support them. This is why I am doing what I can on campus.

This goes back to the question of where is the man who vowed not to leave... it seems his words and actions were hollow shows for the camera and not really in support of the students.

-Venari

[keltic63]

This is a personal matter I do not feel comfortable discussing in a public forum. Part of it was the broader interactions I had with the local supporters and the local people who had set them selves up to be the leader.
this is one of the frustrating things in the conversations with you Venari. You make statements that seem to have serious content, but then you refuse to offer more information when pressed on those statements.


So I say I my view have changed and I was proven wrong. The visit to NCU was not as disastrous as I had thought it would be. But now the GLB students are left in a limbo of being empowered but with no one to support them. This is why I am doing what I can on campus.

I may have missed it. What are you doing on campuse to help lgbt students? are you meeting as a group? are you devising strategies to change policies? have you met with administration? what is happening besides a group of people getting together and making fun of another group of people?

This goes back to the question of where is the man who vowed not to leave... it seems his words and actions were hollow shows for the camera and not really in support of the students.

-Venari

have you contacted Richard? I believe his email is available at the equality ride website. What would you like for him to do? what could soulforce do? what could members of this forum do to help? what can you and other NCU students do to make NCU a friendlier place for LGBT students?

[Venari]

this is one of the frustrating things in the conversations with you Venari. You make statements that seem to have serious content, but then you refuse to offer more information when pressed on those statements.

Keltic,

I would not ask you to divulge information about you that you are uncomfortable sharing, I would take you at your word for what ever reason you have a reason for your actions. Just as I have my reasons for not getting involved or wanting to be involved with SF at the local level. I am part of other groups but just choose not to support the actions of SF here.


I may have missed it. What are you doing on campuse to help lgbt students? are you meeting as a group? are you devising strategies to change policies? have you met with administration? what is happening besides a group of people getting together and making fun of another group of people?

We are trying to organize as a group to have a stronger and more visible voice, just taking baby steps. Also, no were not having Anti-Richard meetings as seems you would paint it. This is a joke being shared by many students, yes a few GLB students do joke about this but for reasons I previously stated.


have you contacted Richard? I believe his email is available at the equality ride website. What would you like for him to do? what could soulforce do? what could members of this forum do to help? what can you and other NCU students do to make NCU a friendlier place for LGBT students?

No, why should I contact him? He promised to support GLB students at NCU and didn’t follow through. So we're organizing to support ourselves. Which is why I asked in a public stetting; Where is Richard Lindsay... it may have been better had he not attempted to do one better then the teachings of Jesus and had just shook the dust from his feet and left.

-Venari

Also as a side note there a few people who have sent me Private Messages and I have gone into greater detail aspects of my life. If you have some serious concerns please send me a private message / e-mail and I may be more open to discuss personal issues.

Thanks,
Venari

[keltic63]

Keltic,

I would not ask you to divulge information about you that you are uncomfortable sharing, I would take you at your word for what ever reason you have a reason for your actions. Just as I have my reasons for not getting involved or wanting to be involved with SF at the local level. I am part of other groups but just choose not to support the actions of SF here.

then why put it out there? It's like you're making an accusation, then refusing to back it up under the guise of not wanting to reveal personal information. It feels very much like "I have a secret" and you want us to guess about the grave information you have.



We are trying to organize as a group to have a stronger and more visible voice, just taking baby steps. Also, no were not having Anti-Richard meetings as seems you would paint it. This is a joke being shared by many students, yes a few GLB students do joke about this but for reasons I previously stated.

what is your reaction to the "jokes"?



No, why should I contact him? He promised to support GLB students at NCU and didn’t follow through. So we're organizing to support ourselves. Which is why I asked in a public stetting; Where is Richard Lindsay... it may have been better had he not attempted to do one better then the teachings of Jesus and had just shook the dust from his feet and left.

-Venari

why shouldn't you? in your original post in this thread, you link to a webpage that has his email address and a phone number. if you think he has made a claim to help, then left you high and dry, put the heat on him! call him on it! You're saying there's damage done. Here is your opportunity to ask the ER to put up or shut up! why come in here and whine about it? Do something!

[Dash]

These are easy questions.:)

Laughter always follows a near miss. When the storm is over and the house is standing, fear is transformed into silliness. Only just avoid a collision, and you are bound to burst into hysterical laughter.:lol:

The open and/or closeted community at NCU is in a post-trauma state. There is nothing unusual about their joking behavior, and neither should it be considered a sign of any failure on the part of the Equality Riders.

We are as glad as that community if they suffer no lasting harm in the wake of the Ride.:love:

As for Richard Lindsey...I do not think it is reasonable for anyone to assume he, or the riders, or Soulforce were going to maintain a permanent presence at NCU.:rolleyes: They had a plan and a limited amount of time to complete their efforts. He took a stand...made a statement. I don't know that it was perfect, but he did what he could.

Here's the simple truth: none of us knows how this goes.:pray:

We are doing our best...we are trying a big try...and we'll keep trying till one day something clicks....till the lock finally opens. Not every attempt will work equally well. Folks can criticize or jump on board. :agree:

It seems as if there is a faulty assumption that Soulforce is not available to the GLBT individuals or groups at NCU now that the Equality Riders have finished this year's trek. If anyone at NCU wants the support of Soulforce and access to the resources they can provide, I'm sure all they need do is ask. If they seek assistance, I suspect that Soulforce will be fully engaged. Conversely, if the gay community at NCU wants to work on their own, I do not doubt they'll still have Soulforce cheering them on in their efforts. :love:

These are easy questions.:)

There are much more difficult ones out there.

[Venari]

then why put it out there? It's like you're making an accusation, then refusing to back it up under the guise of not wanting to reveal personal information. It feels very much like "I have a secret" and you want us to guess about the grave information you have.

Well, all I said in "How did you hear about Soulforce post" is I have known about SF for a while and after meeting some of the people I chose not to be involved. Then someone asked why and I said it was a personal matter that is all you need to know.


what is your reaction to the "jokes"?

I think they are kind of cheeky and I try not to laugh, sometimes a person may need to be mocked to better view their actions though the eyes of others. Over all I am not going to try and stop other students from telling them, but if I am discussing issues regarding the GLB student body and someone makes the jokes I divert back the subject.


why shouldn't you? in your original post in this thread, you link to a webpage that has his email address and a phone number. if you think he has made a claim to help, then left you high and dry, put the heat on him! call him on it! You're saying there's damage done. Here is your opportunity to ask the ER to put up or shut up! why come in here and whine about it? Do something!

Well, we have little belief that he will honestly help. A few of us had contacted the local SF office previously and were given the brush off.

So by coming here I am hoping to create "dialogue" over the issue of coming to these campuses to support GLBT students then leaving no real support.

Keltic, do you think making a claim to one up the Bible and block the entrance to the cafeteria for a few hours then leaving really shows an honest attempt at support for GLB students at NCU? How serious should we take the words and actions of the Equality Ride?

Whining is offering a complaint while offering no real solutions. I am trying to make a solution at NCU and if you read my posts you will see I am recommending better follow though and follow up with the campuses being visited.

-Venari

[Daniel]

Could I have worded my post better, probably. But then with better working the feeling of division between the students, GLB and allied, and groups like Soulforce would not have been conveyed as well.


Well....that say it all doesn't it? Yes. You could think about what you put in print. It has only been in subsequent posts that the underlying issues and nuances have come out. One who responded to you got it right: its all reaction and no action. What does that serve, I ask you? Your ego?

It's as it you put up a shield to your reader and then demand that everyone figure out what's behind it. This gets real tiresome after awhile. It also defeats any depth of interation between parties (oh...yes...it does leave you in control doesn't it?). To put it simply, its the tactic of someone striking first for fear of being struck at. I know you have criticised me for intuiting your actions, however, your words speak for themselves.

That's something to look at.

But James is the expert in this department. I defer.

[Venari]

It seems as if there is a faulty assumption that Soulforce is not available to the GLBT individuals or groups at NCU now that the Equality Riders have finished this year's trek. If anyone at NCU wants the support of Soulforce and access to the resources they can provide, I'm sure all they need do is ask. If they seek assistance, I suspect that Soulforce will be fully engaged. Conversely, if the gay community at NCU wants to work on their own, I do not doubt they'll still have Soulforce cheering them on in their efforts.

Dash, you raise a good question; the issue of the support of SF or not. The real question if the help is not offered what basis do we have to believe the help given when we ask will genuine or will it be just as show?

That is the real question, why hasn’t anyone from the ride of SF made any attempt to contact NCU students of offer assistance. I know they can mass contact us; they did in the weeks before the ride ... why not in the weeks after?

-Venari

[keltic63]

Keltic, do you think making a claim to one up the Bible and block the entrance to the cafeteria for a few hours then leaving really shows an honest attempt at support for GLB students at NCU? How serious should we take the words and actions of the Equality Ride?

Whining is offering a complaint while offering no real solutions. I am trying to make a solution at NCU and if you read my posts you will see I am recommending better follow though and follow up with the campuses being visited.

-Venari
I don't think that making a claim to "one up the Bible" was a wise strategy. Blocking doors is certainly an attempt to call attention to some policies that are unfair at NCU and other college campuses. However, I don't think that the statement diminishes the seriousness of Soulforce and the actions of the Equality Ride. I hear what you are saying about follow-through.
The whining I'm referring to is what you are doing here. I really have to agree with Daniel when he says you are an agent provocateur. You've made a statement that seems to have no other purpose than to start an argument. If you have a beef with Richard, call him on it!
If Soulforce hasn't done anything for NCU, then please tell us what you're going to do differently! you've complained at length about the ER's visit to your campus. Now, what are you doing? Really, outside of getting together with a few closeted students, what have you accomplished on campus? would you have done this if Soulforce hadn't shown up and stirred up things?
and again, I ask, what do you think we can do to help?

[Venari]

To put it simply, its the tactic of someone striking first for fear of being struck at. I know you have criticised me for intuiting your actions, however, you words speak for themselves.

Yes and no... I have seen how people respond and react on this message board and had I just listed out A. B. C. and D.; there would not be the discussion we are having now. Only by placing the controversy arising in a format to really be controversial will people’s true reactions be shown.

That is to see how people respond to those GLB students who are now disillusioned by Soulforce to effectively change and how the over the top actions be some of the Equality Riders have now cheapened the day to one looked at as a joke.

Daniel, I would have hoped you would have sent me an e-mail asking for better clarification of what I was saying and why I was saying it in the way I was.

If any of you had the ability to chapel or classes you would see and hear all the negative things being said.

How does one find a solution in this.

-Venari

[keltic63]

Yes and no... I have seen how people respond and react on this message board and had I just listed out A. B. C. and D.; there would not be the discussion we are having now. Only by placing the controversy arising in a format to really be controversial will people’s true reactions be shown.

-Venari

I find this to be dishonest. You are admitting that you created a controversy to get people's "true reactions." and yet, the original post isn't your true viewpoint. how is this any different than the accusations you place on the ER and Soulforce?

[Venari]

Now, what are you doing? Really, outside of getting together with a few closeted students, what have you accomplished on campus? would you have done this if Soulforce hadn't shown up and stirred up things?
and again, I ask, what do you think we can do to help?

Well,

I cannot be Moses and stand and say "Let my people go." This is bigger then me and what I want to do. I am trying to network other GLB students so we can make a stand together. This is more active then I have been in the past be debating and attempting to change rules... so that is how the ER had changed what I am doing.

Yes, I am attempting to stir the pot because I am seeing a complacency where SF and the ER and patting themselves on the back for a "job well done” while the GLB students and NCU and other school are scrambling to pick up the pieces.

But it comes down to, as I said in another post. Why isn’t SF forth coming with this help why should we be the ones to seek it out?

-Venari

[keltic63]

But it comes down to, as I said in another post. Why isn’t SF forth coming with this help why should we be the ones to seek it out?

-Venari

It sounds like you don't know what you want.

[Venari]

I find this to be dishonest. You are admitting that you created a controversy to get people's "true reactions." and yet, the original post isn't your true viewpoint. how is this any different than the accusations you place on the ER and Soulforce?

It is my view point. Where is he?

I chose to use controversial view points so people will better see whets going no and how "we" see things.

Same this here I see you and Daniel choosing to engage in Ad homnium (sp) that is attacking the person and not discussing the subject. I see it as you are choosing to discredit me and how I chose to present my argument verses offering how to resolve the distrust that has developed between the student body at NCU and SF/ER.

-Venari

[Venari]

It sounds like you don't know what you want.

Yes, I think we have finally boiled down to the real issue. SF/ER wanted to get their name in the spot light. But where the rubber meets the road and the time comes to offer real help the GLBT students at Christian Universities there nowhere to be found.

-Venari

[Daniel]

Daniel, I would have hoped you would have sent me an e-mail asking for better clarification of what I was saying and why I was saying it in the way I was.


You're kidding, right? I'm responsible for intuiting what you write and don't write?

What game are you playing now?

Basta! "La comedia e finita!"

[Daniel]

Yes, I am attempting to stir the pot because I am seeing a complacency where SF and the ER and patting themselves on the back for a "job well done” while the GLB students and NCU and other school are scrambling to pick up the pieces.


I think my first post said it all....

[Daniel]

I see it as you are choosing to discredit me and how I chose to present my argument verses offering how to resolve the distrust that has developed between the student body at NCU and SF/ER.

"The medium is the message" A saying of Marshall McLuhan.

Perhaps you forget that you are responsible for what you say and how you say it.

More dodgeball...

I ain't playing that game....

[Venari]

I ain't playing that game....

I don’t want to either.

I am presenting the issues GLB students at NCU are currently facing. If you choose not the address them then this thread is not for you.

-Venari

[Daniel]

I don’t want to either.

I am presenting the issues GLB students at NCU are currently facing. If you choose not the address them then this thread is not for you.

-Venari

Then don't.

You have a habit of making statements, that when questioned, never get an adequate response as Zerbie and others have pointed out. Why is that? (This is a rhetorcial question) Only you can say. However, your manner of 'discussion' leaves much to be desired. All this clock and dagger stuff is for Masterpiece Theatre, not this forum.

If you want discussion and honest responses, then I would give up the victim status you are so fond of trotting out. It may get you sympathy in the short run, but tries the patience of this reader. It's a poor subsitute for real meaning.

I mean, really, the beginning of this thread: is this how you would address a friend? I would hope not.

Not a basis for a mutual relationship.

Addendum: If it seems I am intent on holding your feet to the fire, you are right. I am. No apologies there. I simply ask you to think about how you engage your reader my dear provocateur. I might add bully to that, but that might be going too far. But I wonder about that. I really do. Do you have any idea how you come across? Do you care?

[Venari]

You have a habit of making statements, that when questioned, never get an adequate response as Zerbie and others have pointed out. Why is that? (This is a rhetorcial question)

Very simple answer;

I am semi-closeted at my school so I cannot divulge too much personal information. To do so would place my self at a higher risk then I am willing to accept at the moment.

It is interesting you are pointing back to me and all my flaws and not the issue I have brought up. Why it is when criticism arises you and Keltic are the first to point out the flaws with the person and not address the issue they are presenting?

From our off the forums discussions I have been very honest with many aspects of my life... but with the public nature of these forums I cannot be as open with everyone.

If you see this as cloak and dagger maybe you need to think though what its like at a conservative religious school then add to it attempting to talk and toe the line of advocating for GLBT rights. Maybe then you will see why I am selective about what and how I choose to revel things.

Also if you don’t like how I opened my presentation of this topic then a more constructive manner of discussion then accusing me of being deceptive may be more appropriate. As I said I chose to use controversy as a way to convey the feelings at NCU.

-Venari

[Daniel]

As I said I chose to use controversy as a way to convey the feelings at NCU.


Well. You got contoversy. Are you happy now?

You can hide all you want, but that's a poor excuse in the end for honestly of the emotional sort, aside from the details of your life.

And as to your flaws, it seems you are more than happy to point out those of the creators of this forum and the Riders. In fact, it seems that is all you have to offer in the end. Your expectations have certainly been realized as an earlier post in the thread pointed out.

Care to point out my faults? Go ahead. I'll be happy to deal with them. I can take the heat. Can you?

[Daniel]

It is interesting you are pointing back to me and all my flaws and not the issue I have brought up. Why it is when criticism arises you and Keltic are the first to point out the flaws with the person and not address the issue they are presenting?


Because we care, that's why.

Has it crossed your mind for one second that maybe, just maybe, the issue is tangled up in the personality and a great many things not faced?

[awediot]

THE
"MARK (http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b47/itssowhitetrash/SpecOlympics.jpg)"

LINK

^
M
I
S
S





now what?

[Daniel]

Awediot,

Thank you for the correction which made me laugh. Always good medicine.

From my point of view, as someone who has interacted with Venari both publicly and privately, I only wish to point out that there is more here than meets the eye.

[tdogg]

Venari,

Reactive - complaining (whining), asking questions "why" without doing your own searching, sitting around talking about how awful the ER experience was and how they aren't doing any follow up, waiting for something to happen.

Proactive - getting on the phone, email, letter writing - ask the people involved your questions, start dialogue, don't sit around and wait for an event to happen - create it yourself, start a GSA in your school even if it's a secret/closeted one (find a 'safe house' to meet in), write letters, news articles, bulletins, there are lots of things you could do to affect change.

This requires burning of calories and action - don't wait around for someone to call or email you - CALL AND EMAIL THEM. Nothing is done by those who wait for something to happen. What is the quote "Be the chang you want to happen"? Be in this instance is a verb and that means some action has to happen. So, the ER happened, it didn't go perfect for you, great we get it, we see your point (your general point because like others have said you continuously fail to provide any real details to backup your claims) - now, what can you learn from this and do to proceed, progress and get on with life. You know, there are two sides to every story and a good beginning would be for you to get in touch with some of the ER participants and find out what led them to do what they did - get their side of the story. That would mean LISTENING with an open mind, open ear and open eye and then perhaps find out what you and the other students could have done differently to make it a more positive experience for everyone. That is not to say your feelings and thoughts are not valid, but having true dialogue means to see all sides of a story, gather your facts, take the positive and learn from the negative and get on with business.

Continuing this discussion (ie, the complaining and questioning) is not proactive and not helpful. It only creates chaos (stirs the pot) and does nothing to help you progress. Get up, pick up the phone, or a keyboard, and initiate it YOURSELF. You may be amazed at what you can accomplish when you actually attempt to accomplish something.

Ok, probably overdone here and I really am rooting for you and what you are trying to do Venari. It would just be nice to hear some action from you instead of reaction that's all.

[Zerbie]

A significant problem with deliberately phrasing your opening post to create "controversy" is that it obscures your own point. I have spent this entire thread trying to figure out what it's about. Therefore, any response you get from me is a sorta :confused:, well, if Venari means X then, okay, Y, but if Venari means ABC, then, no, ZYX. In other words, because I don't know what I'm actually talking about, you therefore get an obscured response. It achieves the opposite of your stated goal - to reveal true reactions. Instead, you get a lot of, Huh? :confused: :confused:

It can be frustrating when someone opens up a subject implying, or even stating explicitly, that there is a huge worm can underneath, then backs away from giving at least some indication what that stuff is about. I would like to know the answer to my question. However, I respect your right to reveal as much or as little as you choose. But bear in mind that when you come from a position of being significantly closed off, it makes communication difficult and can lead to further misunderstanding.

We are trying to help, Venari. I don't know if it looks that way to you or not, but we are. I strongly recommend you consider some of the things that have been said to you, especially in Tdoggs excellent post above.

If you are not clear in the communications you toss out to the world, you are likely to receive back mud. That, methinks, is the biggest problem you're running into on this message board.

[awediot]

What is an opportunity to examine how the efforts of SF can be improved has turned into an attack on the messenger. If the PMs and style of the messenger overshadow this rare chance to hone the activism, message, target and impression SF wants to impress on its opponents, then puppies,poems, books, fantasy weddings and less seminal observations will bury this board like an oyster deals with a grit of sand.
This exchange has given me a better understanding of the difference between 'the SF forums', and SoulForce the organization.

It also finally inspired me figure out that:

There are 1187 members, 274 active members, which leaves 913 as inactive (what qualifies as active or not I don't know)
out of the 274 active, approximately 30 have posted regularly in the last three months; less than 10% of active members.
(stats from SoulForce community forums page, 5/16/06 )

I don't know what conclusions to draw from this, or know the impact of anonymous 'guests' on the organization or our impact on them. Often it is stated that what is posted here does not represent the Organization of SF. Many of us simply like the message of the group, and in all honesty, have nothing more invested in it than taking pleasure in using its format to forge new friendships, give and get info., share shoulders, live vicariously or just delight in seeing our thoughts 'published'. It is not up to us to 'straighten out' the mistakes of the organizations actions or take any credit for its success. We are, however, its most publicly available mouthpiece and self-appointed think tank. I have wondered why more 'staff', administration, and for that matter equality riders do not at least chime in on occasion, considering some of the important topics that get discussed. The inner workings and inclusive communications of the decision makers has nothing to do with this forum, and I guess that surprises me a little since so many 'guests' seem to think we are their representatives...

Where indeed IS Richard Lindsay?

Just a thought to keep in mind as/if this dialog continues, and when the next similar one comes along.

[Venari]

Zerbie,

Sorry for the confusion. But I chose the write in the manner I did to convey the feelings of students at NCU and so the readers here would get a better view of the controversy.

That said, people are assuming WAY too much.

As I said I and others are in the beginning stages of organizing the GLB students at NCU as best as I can where it goes from there I don’t know.

Also, SF/ER has shown the ability to mass contact students at NCU in the past (attached below is a mass e-mail received by many NCU students) but no further effort has been made to reach out to the GLB students at NCU.

So the question remains where is the support that was "show"/ "promised" on April 17th?

Soulforce is the one that came to NCU and caused this issue in the first place so why should we be the ones to turn and seek them out for assistance now?

How can we not take all the action on April 17th as just a show for the camera when now SF is no where to be seen offering help the GLB students at NCU?

Why come if there is/was no intention for follow up and though with the action taken on that day?

These are the important questions... and I want to know the answers!

-Venari

From : <xanga@xanga.com>
Reply-To : <davidd@equalityride.com>
Sent : Wednesday, February 22, 2006 8:34 PM
To : <XXX@msn.com>
Subject : Soulforce Equality Ride at NCU on April 17th!!


davidd@equalityride.com has sent you this message!
------------------------------------------------------------

Dear XXX,

I wanted to let you know about an exciting opportunity to live out your faith in Jesus and support the Soulforce Equality Ride when we visit North Central University on April 17th. If you are interested please visit
www.equalityride.com for more information.

Peace,

David

================================================== ==========
This email was sent to XXX@msn.com. If you wish to edit your Xanga
email settings, you may do so here:
http://www.xanga.com/private/profilecontact.aspx

[NathanATX]

If you have suggestions for doing things better or differently, just make them.

Most of the people working with soulforce are volunteers and while I'm sure everyone--staff & volunteers-- is committed to excellence, I'm sure there are definite opportunites for improvement.

You do have some great suggestions underneath all the drama of "why didn't he email me back," et. al.

People might respond to your suggestions more readily if you weren't continually in attack mode.

so be cool man ... :cool:

Make a list of what you think could have been done better/more efficiently. Maybe the soulforce crew will agree with you, maybe not. Maybe volunteers will agree to help do some of your suggestions, maybe not.

[Venari]

As I have said and shown they have managed to contact many NCU students in the past to ask for our support so it can be done now to offer support. The ER seems more willing to want us to support them then not offer support to the students speaks a lot about the organization to many students.

So where is the follow up for the school they visited?

How this follow up is made is up to those involved in Soulforce... What I am seeing is more GLB students at NCU more hurt and confused in the wake of the ER's visit then before it. I made my own choice to explore ex-gay ministries but now I am seeing a number of students being pressured into going by friends and family.

What I am saying is Soulforce and the Equality Rider need to follow up with the school and the students they have impacted. How this follow up is made is up to those involved in Soulforce. But there is a clear need for follow up.

-Venari

[NathanATX]

What I am saying is Soulforce and the Equality Rider need to follow up with the school and the students they have impacted. How this follow up is made is up to those involved in Soulforce. But there is a clear need for follow up.

-Venari


Thanks! That was perfect!

Who can handle organizing a followup program? Jamie? Schoolboi?

edit: I emailed davidd@equalityride.com and asked if he could send a followup email.

[Jamie McDaniel]

Who is it on this site who has the Gandhi quote in his sig? Maybe Joe B.?

"First they laugh at you. Then they fight you. Then you win."

That would be SolInvictus. And since we're asking where people are in this thread, I'm wondering where did he go? Everyone private message SolInvictus (http://www.soulforce.org/forums/member.php?u=81) now and tell him you miss him.

Ok, now to answer the big question. Where is Richard Lindsay? Richard is staying with Mel and Gary in Lynchburg, VA. He was brought onboard to handle the duties associated with being the media contact person traveling with the Equality Riders. He will be working with Soulforce as a media contact for the upcoming action with Focus on the Family.

Now Venari, you want to know why Richard is not at NCU. Well, the short answer is that Soulforce is not sending him there. So let Richard off, it is Soulforce who you are really upset with.

I think it is evident that the NCU stop was not a particularly bright spot for the 2006 Equality Ride. But I have a hard time gaining a clear assessment of your posts because you grant so much grace to NCU and president Anderson, yet heavily criticize the Equality Riders and Soulforce. For anyone new to these forums, I ask you to take five minutes to listen to President Anderson discuss gays in the context of child molestors and sex with animals. Here's the link: www.nlnews.org/Anderson_9-16-05.mp3 (http://www.nlnews.org/Anderson_9-16-05.mp3)

I defend Dr Anderson for I know the man is one of the most honest, sincere, kind, caring, compassionate... I can go on again... person I have ever met.

Now compare
...repairing the bridge the ER dropped a torch on when they left.
...while the GLB students and NCU and other school are scrambling to pick up the pieces.

So Venari, I have to say that with regard to NCU and the Soulforce Equality Ride, I have a difficult time taking much of your criticism to heart when you are so gracious to your oppressors and so angry with GLBT activists.

Now, you did eventually post this, which I what I would like to see this thread deal with.

What I am saying is Soulforce and the Equality Rider need to follow up with the school and the students they have impacted. How this follow up is made is up to those involved in Soulforce. But there is a clear need for follow up.

Now before we start, I do want everyone to keep in mind that Soulforce operates with a yearly budget of about $450,000 and last I heard the Equality Ride took about 40% of that. And while the 10 staff members work for less than the going rate, nobody on staff works for free. So unless a huge grant comes our way, placing staff members in each of the 19 towns of the schools that were visited in not possible. (Although it should be noted that one of the Equality Riders went back to Lee University after the ride was over and stayed for several days.)

So what can we do for follow-up? What might truly help closeted GLBT students at the schools move forward with seeing themselves in a whole new light. Suggestions?

My first suggestion would be a kit containing GLBT friendly books that could be sent to a contact person at the schools (if we do indeed have one at all the schools). The contact person would need to have a desire to see closeted students get those books.

Maybe that sounds limited. Do people really feel that Soulforce should not call schools out on their anti-gay policies unless the organization is prepared to invest the necessary resources to see those schools change?

[Venari]

My first suggestion would be a kit containing GLBT friendly books that could be sent to a contact person at the schools (if we do indeed have one at all the schools). The contact person would need to have a desire to see closeted students get those books.

I know the perfect student at NCU to work with Soulforce on something like that... he’s not as bitter as me, but may be controversial.


Maybe that sounds limited. Do people really feel that Soulforce should not call schools out on their anti-gay policies unless the organization is prepared to invest the necessary resources to see those schools change?

That’s just it. The Equality Ride may be a great idea but at this current time Soulforce is not prepared to respond to the full repercussions of their actions. It seems like you want to rattle the cage but not deal with the potential of having to deal with the pissed off tiger inside.

Finally,

So Venari, I have to say that with regard to NCU and the Soulforce Equality Ride, I have a difficult time taking much of your criticism to heart when you are so gracious to your oppressors and so angry with GLBT activists.

As I said I have an existing relationship with NCU and the Assemblies of God and I in no way see them as oppressors. I would put my faith in them to do the best for me before I would place my faith in many "GLBT activists" to do what’s best for me. Many may see this as misguided but these people have been there for me in many ways and though they may disagree with issues of sexuality I know they are kind and caring people... I wish you could see that too.

-Venari

[NathanATX]

That’s just it. The Equality Ride may be a great idea but at this current time Soulforce is not prepared to respond to the full repercussions of their actions. It seems like you want to rattle the cage but not deal with the potential of having to deal with the pissed off tiger inside.

Venari, you already made a good suggestion regarding the need for some kind of followup. We're looking at that. Do you think Martin Luther King Jr. should have not done the Equality Ride without having a good followup program?

I think followup is a good idea. We care about the students. It's also a way to prepare them to work for their own change. HOWEVER, the Equality Ride is not about change at just one school. It's about bringing EQUALITY to all schools. King wasn't trying to end segregation at one or two schools, he was addiressing the injustice that was present at ALL schools.

To that end, the Equality Ride has focused on publicizing the injustices, attempting to dialouge with the targeted schools(however successfully), and by doing non-violent actions to demonstrate against the injustices.

While followup is a great idea, I don't think it is an absolute neccessity. Like many good ideas... if you have one, maybe God is leading you to carry it out.


Finally,

As I said I have an existing relationship with NCU and the Assemblies of God and I in no way see them as oppressors. I would put my faith in them to do the best for me before I would place my faith in many "GLBT activists" to do what’s best for me. Many may see this as misguided but these people have been there for me in many ways and though they may disagree with issues of sexuality I know they are kind and caring people... I wish you could see that too.

-Venari

This is clearly a matter of opinion and we'll simply have to agree to disagree. Of course, the sins of AG churches and homophobic policies of their schools are specifically what the Equality Ride is targeting. We're not saying they are evil, horrible people. I'm sure they have much concern and love for you. In my opinion, and that of many others here, they are harming you and any other glbt students with their misguided beliefs about sexuality. That is what we're targeting: the harm--potential and actual, and the beliefs that cause the harm.

We WILL continue our work to bring an end to spiritual violence. We WILL continue our work to call Christians into integrity and love. We WILL continue to stand and speak for those who are not able to.

These things are not negotiable. You are free to have a different opinion, of course, but don't be deceptive about what you're actually trying to accomplish.

[tdogg]

I saw the Equality Ride event as a 'beginning', bringing the issues to light, letting the students (and faculty) know that there are others out there like them, that they aren't alone in this world, that you will survive coming out and being yourself AND that God loves you JUST THE WAY YOU ARE.

I didn't see it as a full-time job for the participants. I think that's the real problem here. Sounds like Venari and some of his fellow students feel that the event didn't end in April, that it's an ongoing action and of course, since they attend NCU their focus is on how it affected NCU. That's completely understandable.

However, it is obvious that the ER wasn't intended to be a full time job for the particpants and that they have lives and other activities they are participating in so they may not be available to provide extensive visits and assistance. But, they went to the schools, reached out to the students and brought the issues to the forefront. Now, the real challenge is what do the students at each of the schools do with this experience. Real change happens because those involved make it happen. Venari, it really is up to you to go on with what you are doing. Don't expect others to do it for you. If you want real answers to your 'follow up' question, you are going to have to ask some of the ER participants. But Jamie's reply sounds like a reasonable explanation. You are in a position to do something postive and excellent, there are other resources out there besides the ER participants - use them. Maybe that's the question you should be asking - where can we go to get assistance and ideas?? I think there was a thread on these forums regarding web sites and/or organizations that can help you and your fellow students deal with these issues.

Meanwhile, continuing to ask those who post here the same question isn't going to get you any real answers. We will be happy to brainstorm with you on what to do/where to go now. Sounds like you're on the right track, you just need to refocus your energy. :rainbow:

[Jamie McDaniel]

I know the perfect student at NCU to work with Soulforce on something like that...
Please discuss this initial suggestion with your friend or just ask him or her to contact me at jamie@soulforce.org

If you all are willing, Soulforce will send a kit of GLBT friendly books and videos from our recommended resources. Although we have our own Soulforce resources, perhaps those from other publishers would be met with more acceptance at the moment.

[awediot]

Curious, and curious if anyone thinks it matters... but I e-mailed Richard Lindsay myself just to give him a "heads up" on the topic being discussed, and to see if he would like to respond directly... he replied back to me and I don't feel at liberty to say what he replied.

Did anyone else e-mail him?

[themattperry]

Curious, and curious if anyone thinks it matters... but I e-mailed Richard Lindsay myself just to give him a "heads up" on the topic being discussed, and to see if he would like to respond directly... he replied back to me and I don't feel at liberty to say what he replied.

Why not? Did he ask you not too, or is that your decision ... just curious why the secrecy ... I for one would like to know what he said and what you asked him.

:)

[awediot]

No he didn't ask me not to. Don't know if would have crossed his mind I might... At the moment is my decision. It was very innocuous, brief and would be easy to post, but I question if I have that right and am curious if, with all the ranting about follow up, any one else persued the next obvious step. I'll let it ride for the moment...