While we're on the topic of mysticism

[Zerbie]

What is 'the holy spirit?' Is this one of many 'things' in Christianity that is not agreed upon by various churches and their respective traditions? Or is there general agreement about what it is? And WHAT is it?

Is it an element? Does it have properties?
Is it considered alive? Is it considered to be part of God, or Godself, or just what?

What does it do? How does one recognize it and discern it from other 'things,' properties or elements? Does it influence human life a little or a lot, and is it difficult to live with?

[BruceChris]

Near the end of one of the gospels, I think it was John, Jesus says that he must leave us, but that he will leave us the Holy Spirit

"But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.” Those who receive the gift of the Holy Ghost and remain worthy can enjoy His companionship throughout their lives. The Holy Ghost provides direction and comfort and testifies of truth".
John, 14:26

http://www.theholyspirit.com/

It is part of the Trinity, and there is some dispute about exactly how we should view the
Trinity.

See also trinitarianism.

You can Google most of this stuff yourself, but for some of the fine points, ask udog or Andy

Bruce Chris

Two trips to Google, and one to Wiki in the five minutes it took me to write this.

[Zerbie]

You can Google most of this stuff yourself, but for some of the fine points, ask udog or Andy

Bruce Chris

Two trips to Google, and one to Wiki in the five minutes it took me to write this.

Thank you.

Udog and Andy, and others who like to delve, are probably who/what I'm hoping to hear from in this context.

I did once try a google search but what I recall now is that I did not find quite what I was looking for. (Though I could stand to do one again to get the basic points back into mind, since now I can't remember what I read. That was a couple months ago and when I did not find what I was looking for, I put it all out of mind.)

There is something I am trying to cipher out which probably requires getting into the finer points of the topic.

[u-dog]

Hey Zerblet. excellent question. I have many thoughts I want to share about the HS but I have a busy day today and I want some time to organize my thoughts. I'm not ignoring you. :)

[Daniel]

Thought I would check Wikipedia, just for fun, to see what the entry said. There is a lot there. However, the heading notes the entry "has issues". And considering the subject, I'm not surprised!

Make of it what you will.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Spirit

Gonna wait to put my two cents in. Off the the Met Museum for the afternoon!

[Zerbie]

Yes, it is an interesting topic.

Curiosity arose earlier this summer when we were in Germany and all the stores closed in observation of Pentecost. It surprised me that my husband asked "What's Pentecost?" Usually it's me asking and he who explains things like this. But somewhere I had heard what Pentecost was so I explained it to him.

That's when I began wondering whether there is a continuing tradition of a descent of fire or birds, of sudden radical transformations of individuals, or of non-ordinary phenomena, that remains within modern Christianity. Is this a subject that gets talked about?

In particular, I am interested in the reasons behind the symbology as fire, as doves, and in the property of movement associated with this 'spirit.' What have been the visceral experiences behind assigning it the property of fire, or the body of a dove? Was it hot? Did it move in flickering or wing-like motions? Was there in fact a visceral element to the experience of the original Pentecost receivers and of later Christian mystics and saints? What properties has this spirit that it is called fire? What properties has it when it is called dove? In what ways does it move or produce movement in living beings?

Where can I find these questions discussed?

[BenL]

Both images, of the dove and of the tongues of fire, are found in the New Testament. The dove image is also used in the Hebrew scriptures in the story of the flood, where Noah sent out a dove to see if there was any dry land and the dove came back with an olive branch in its beak.

The dove image appears in all three Synoptic gospels at these places:
Matthew 3:16, Mark 1:10, and Luke 3:22. Here's Mark's version, beginning at 1:9:

In those days Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee and was baptized by John in the Jordan. And when he came up out of the water, immediately he saw the heavens opened and the Spirit descending upon him like a dove; and a voice came from heaven, Thou art my beloved Son; with thee I am well pleased.

The tongues of fire come in the Pentecost story told in the Acts of the Apostles. Pentecost was and still is a Jewish feast that comes 50 days (hence the name) after Passover. In the Christian idiom, it is 50 days after Easter. The archaic English term for Pentecost is Whitsunday. Here's the passage, Acts 2:1-4:

When the day of Pentecost had come, they were all together in one place. And suddenly a sound came from heaven like the rush of a mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. And there appeared to them tongues as of fire, distributed and resting on each one of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

So, as you see, another metaphor for the Spirit is wind. In fact, the Hebrew word for spirit is the same word as the word for breath. The Greek word used in Acts has the same root as the English words pneumonia and pneumatic. Genesis 1:1-2, says:

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. The earth was without form and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; and the Spirit of God was moving over the face of the waters.

The Oxford Annotated Bible has a footnote at the word Spirit that says that "wind" is an alternative translation.

BTW, in case you haven't caught on, Holy Spirit = Holy Ghost, the more archaic term.

I have used the word "metaphor," because I believe that human beings can't understand the depths of the mystery that is God except through metaphors using human images. Notice that the Scriptural passages say, "like a dove" and "as of fire." The early Greek councils devised a trinitarian formula of three persons in one God, the third person being the Holy Spirit. Personhood was a specifically Hellenistic way of looking at the aspects of the divinity. Judaism and Islam, the other Abrahamic religions don't admit of any division in the Godhead. Literal, fundamentalist churches believe that the dove and the tongues of fire appeared just as the Bible says. Progressive interpreters see them as metaphors for the divine qualities of peace, purification and inspiration. God's continuing presence in the world is often described in terms of the Holy Spirit.

Now, I will defer to the theologians among us.

[Pablo Rafael]

I'm not a theologian, just a teacher. But we all know teachers think they have an answer to ANY question, so...

The doctrine of the Trinity has been a cornerstone of Christian faith for centuries. It is a man-made term used to decribe a God who is undescribable. If you want to read an exhaustive description of the Trinity, google "The Athanasian Creed". That was the church's attempt to describe a God that is beyond description. (It is rubbish in my opinion because I feel that God is beyond our senses and therefore cannot be described. "Transcendental" as the great philosopher Immanuel Kant would say.)

Basically as I see it, the Holy Spirit is God, along with God the Father and Jesus the Son. All are equally God and fully God. The three great works of God are creation, redemption (chiefly the life death and resurrection of Jesus) and sanctification (the working of God in our lives).

The Holy Spirit is the aspect of God that primarily deals with sanctification. The HS is the force that works faith in us, strengthens us in our lives and leads us to do acts of love toward God and for others.

The Holy Spirit is sort of the "electricity" of God. He/She is the power that is at work in people. On the day of Pentecost the disciples were filled with power at the coming of the Holy Spirit. God's grace, the love shown to all people, comes to us through the life, death and resurrection of Jesus by the power of the Holy Spirit. Without the Holy Spirit we would not have a connection to the "transcendental" God. We would not be able to have the grace of God in our lives or be able to share that grace with others.

This is a far from perfect answer to your question. I don't know if Protestant churches view the Holy Spirit differently, but this is the basic understanding of the Catholic, Episcopal and Lutheran churches. (Lutheran and Episcopal churches are sort of protestant, sort of not. They can't quite decide.)

[dsdrane]

I think Pablo's got it right.

;)

I also share, as a starting point, the three-in-one view of a trinitarian God. In fact, I think the Holy Spirit is, frankly, the coolest of the three. I say this because he/she/it/other seems to be unbounded by time or space...as well as apparently, poly-lingual. [No small feat, considering my experience with German.:D]

I think of the HS like those old cartoons of a little devil and a little angel appearing over our shoulders when we have an ethical or moral decision to make. The HS is (obviously) the angel -- our "better angel", telling us what we're supposed to do.

I said it was cartoon-ish.

As a[n armchair] genealogist, I see the HS as the ever-present and wise ancestor continuing to communicate and be relevant over all time. God is busy creating; the Son is busy being Jewish, old, and selfless...but something needs to be flitting about everywhere else. When I care about people who helped create me (and many, many others), I feel like I'm worshipping at their altar. Perhaps, then, the HS is the ultimate, the über-ancestor, who incorporates them all.

Haha...not Scripture by a long-shot, but my own silly musings.:)

[BruceChris]

Some chose to see the Holy Spirit as the feminine, or female aspect of God. Of course, some of us liberal Protestants now speak of FatherMother God.

Yours, Bruce Chris

[Pablo Rafael]

But if you have ever read The Shack, you will find there that God the Father is also female :eek: as well as the Holy Spirit. Jesus is the only male, and dissapointingly not that good-looking. And BTW, none of the three are white.

[Daniel]

There is another divine feminine aspect worth throwing into the mix here, and that is Sophia. No. Not one of the Golden Girls!

She's not the Holy Ghost however. At least not in the minds of the majority of believers. However, Gnostics think of her as such. Interesting, no?

Here's the Wikipedia entry. Sorry I can't get the link to work!


Sophia (Σoφíα, Greek for "wisdom") is a central term in Hellenistic philosophy and religion, Platonism, Gnosticism, Orthodox Christianity, Esoteric Christianity, as well as Christian mysticism. Sophiology is a philosophical concept regarding wisdom, as well as a theological concept regarding the wisdom of God.

Eastern Orthodoxy

In the mystical theology of the Eastern Orthodox Church wisdom is understood as the Divine Logos who became incarnate as Jesus Christ.[2] In the Holy Family, Sophia is often seen as being represented by the Theotokos (Virgin Mary). Sophia is expressed as the Holy Wisdom of God and the saints, obtained through humility, and Mary the Theotokos is the first and greatest of all saints. In Eastern Orthodoxy humility is the highest wisdom and is to be sought more than any other virtue. It is humility that cultivates not only the Holy Wisdom, but humility (in contrast to knowledge) is the defining quality that grants people salvation and entrance into Heaven.[3] The Hagia Sophia or Holy Wisdom church in Constantinople was the religious center of the Eastern Orthodox Church for nearly a thousand years.
Exterior view of the Hagia Sophia or the Holy Wisdom, 2004.

In the liturgy of the Orthodox Church, the exclamation Sophia! or in English Wisdom! will be proclaimed by the deacon or priest at certain moments, especially before the reading of scripture, to draw the congregation's attention to sacred teaching.

The concept of Sophia has been championed as a key part of the Godhead by some Eastern Orthodox religious thinkers. These included Vladimir Solovyov, Pavel Florensky, Nikolai Berdyaev, and Sergei Bulgakov whose book Sophia: The Wisdom of God is in many ways the apotheosis of Sophiology. For Bulgakov, the Sophia is co-existent with the Trinity, operating as the feminine aspect of God in concert with the three masculine principles of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Vladimir Lossky rejects Solovyev and Bulgakov's teachings as error. Lossky states that Wisdom as an energy of God (just as love, faith and grace are also energies of God) is not to be ascribed to be the true essence of God, to do so is to deny the apophatic and incomprehesiblity of God as God's essence.[4] This is contrary to the official view of the Orthodox Church, and Bulgakov's work was denounced by the Russian Orthodox authorities as heretical.[2][5]
Hildegard of Bingen's art depicting Ecclesia and Sophia.

Roman Catholic mysticism

In Roman Catholic mysticism, Hildegard of Bingen celebrated Sophia as a cosmic figure in both her writing and her art.[6]

Protestant mysticism
Virgin Sophia design on a Harmony Society doorway in Harmony, Pennsylvania, carved by Frederick Reichert Rapp in 1809.

Within the Protestant tradition in England, Jane Leade, 17th-century Christian mystic, Universalist, and founder of the Philadelphian Society, wrote copious descriptions of her visions and dialogues with the "Virgin Sophia" who, she said, revealed to her the spiritual workings of the Universe.[7]

Leade was hugely influenced by the theosophical writings of 16th Century German Christian mystic Jakob Böhme, who also speaks of the Sophia in works such as The Way to Christ.[8] Jakob Böhme was very influential to a number of Christian mystics and religious leaders, including George Rapp and the Harmony Society.[9]

Sophia can be described as the wisdom of God, and, at times, as a pure virgin spirit which emanates from God. The Sophia is seen as being expressed in all creation and the natural world as well as, for some of the Christian mystics mentioned above, integral to the spiritual well-being of humankind, the church, and the cosmos. The Virgin is seen as outside creation but compassionately interceding on behalf of humanity to alleviate its suffering by illuminating true spiritual seekers with wisdom and the love of God.

The main difference between the concept of Sophia found in most traditional forms of Christian mysticism and the one more aligned with the Gnostic view of Sophia is that to many Christian mystics she is not seen as fallen or in need of redemption. Conversely, she is not as central in most forms of established Christianity as she is in Gnosticism, but to some Christian mystics the Sophia is a very important concept.

An interfaith spiritual community currently has its center at what it calls Sancta Sophia Seminary located in Tahlequah, Oklahoma.[10]

In Gnosticism
A mystical depiction of Sophia from Geheime Figuren der Rosenkreuzer, Altona, 1785.

A feminine figure, analogous to the human soul but also simultaneously one of the Feminine aspects of God and the Bride of Christ, she is considered to have fallen from grace in some way, in so doing creating or helping to create the material world.[citation needed]

In Gnostic tradition, the term Sophia refers to the final and lowest emanation of God. In most if not all versions of the Gnostic religion, Sophia brings about an instability in the Pleroma, in turn bringing about the creation of materiality. Thus a positive or negative view of materiality depends a great deal on the interpretations of Sophia's actions in the myths. She is occasionally referred to by the Hebrew equivalent of Achamoth (this is a feature of Ptolemy's version of the Valentinian Gnostic myth).[citation needed] For the Gnostics, the drama of the redemption of the Sophia through Christ or the Logos is the central drama of the universe. The Sophia resides in all of us as the Divine Spark. According to the Pistis Sophia, Christ is sent from the Godhead in order to bring Sophia back into the fullness of Pleroma following her repentance.

Almost all Gnostic systems of the Syrian or Egyptian type taught that the universe began with an original, unknowable God, referred to as the Parent or Bythos, or as the Monad by Monoimus. It can also be equated to the concept of Logos in stoic, esoteric, or theosophical terms (The 'Unknown Root') as well as the Ein Sof of the Kabbalah and Brahman in Hinduism. It is also known as the first Æon by still other traditions. From this initial unitary beginning, the One spontaneously emanated further Æons, being pairs of progressively 'lesser' beings in sequence. The lowest of these pairs were Sophia and Christ. The Æons together made up the Pleroma, or fullness, of God, and thus should not be seen as distinct from the divine, but symbolic abstractions of the divine nature.

Nag Hammadi

In the Nag Hammadi, Sophia is the lowest Æon, or anthropic expression of the emanation of the light of God. She is the syzygy of Jesus Christ (i.e. she forms a unity with Christ, being cojoined with him), and Gnostics believed that she was the Holy Spirit of the Trinity. Sophia is depicted as the creator of the material universe in On the Origin of the World. Furthermore, the planet Earth and everything on it was indeed created by the Old Testament God, but he is depicted as fundamentally corrupt. Because Sophia created the material universe and its god (also known as Yaldabaoth, Samael, and Demiurge) either without her syzygy Jesus Christ or, in another tradition, because she tried to breach the barrier between herself and the unknowable Bythos.

Furthermore, she is also depicted as the destroyer of both this material universe, and Yaldabaoth and all his Heavens. Later in "On the Origin of the World," it states:

She [Sophia] will cast them down into the abyss. They [the Archons] will be obliterated because of their wickedness. For they will come to be like volcanoes and consume one another until they perish at the hand of the prime parent. When he has destroyed them, he will turn against himself and destroy himself until he ceases to exist. And their heavens will fall one upon the next and their forces will be consumed by fire. Their eternal realms, too, will be overturned. And his heaven will fall and break in two. His [...] will fall down upon the [...] support them; they will fall into the abyss, and the abyss will be overturned. The light will [...] the darkness and obliterate it: it will be like something that never was.

The fall of Sophia

Sophia's fear and anguish of losing her life (just as she lost the light of the One) caused confusion and longing to return to it. Because of these longings, matter (Greek: hyle, ‘υλη) and soul (Greek: psyche, ψυχή) accidentally came into existence through the four elements: fire, water, earth, and air. The creation of the lion-faced Demiurge is also a mistake made during this exile, according to some Gnostic sources as a result of Sophia trying to emanate on her own, without her male counterpart. The Demiurge proceeds to create the physical world in which we live, ignorant of Sophia, who nevertheless managed to infuse some spiritual spark or pneuma into the creation of the Demiurge.

After this the savior (Christ) returns and lets her see the light again, bringing her knowledge of the spirit (Greek: pneuma, πνευμα). Christ was then sent to earth in the form of the man Jesus to give men the gnosis needed to rescue themselves from the physical world and return to the spiritual world. Note that, in Gnosticism, the Gospel story of Jesus is itself allegorical: it is the Outer Mystery, used as an introduction to Gnosis, rather than being literally true in a historical context.

In Valentinian cosmology, the three sensations experienced by Sophia create three correspondent types of humans:

* Hylics (who bond to matter, the principle of evil)
* Psychics (who bond to the soul and are partly saved from evil)
* Pneumatics who can return to the Pleroma if they achieve gnosis and can behold the world of light. The Gnostics regarded themselves as members of this group.

The analogy of the fall and recovery of Sophia is echoed (to a varying degree) in many different myths and stories (see Damsel in distress). Among these are:

* The story of Isis told by Plutarch, who while still in the cosmic womb, brings forth the flawed Elder Horus without a consort[11]
* The Christian Gospels: The Church as the bride of Christ
* The abduction and rescue of Helen of Troy, an allegory of special significance to the Gnostic Simon Magus
* Persephone and her descent into Hades, from which she returns to life [but is bound to return to Hades for 3 months every year]
* The story of Eve and the birth of Christ through the Virgin Mary
* The descent of Orpheus into the underworld to rescue his wife, Eurydice
* The return of Odysseus to his kingdom, Ithaca, to reclaim his wife, Penelope
* The rescue of Andromeda by Perseus
* The story of Pandora
* The stories of Cinderella and Sleeping Beauty
* The slaying of the Dragon by St. George to rescue the Princess
* The rescue of the kidnapped Sita by her husband, the god-king Rama, with the help of Hanuman in the Ramayana

Note that many of these myths have alternative psychological interpretations. For example Jungian psychologist Marie-Louise von Franz interpreted fairly tales like Sleeping Beauty as symbolizing the 'rescue' or reintegration of the anima, the more 'feminine' part of a man's uconscious, but not wisdom or sophia per se.

[Zerbie]

Hey Zerblet. excellent question. I have many thoughts I want to share about the HS but I have a busy day today and I want some time to organize my thoughts. I'm not ignoring you. :)

Nag, nag, nag, nag, nag, nag. . . .
:p:p:p

We've gotten several interesting and varied comments on the subject, but that doesn't mean I wasn't interested to also hear yours. Just in case you thought I wasn't interested, I am.

[Zerbie]

Wow, Daniel - that's overwhelming. So many different names and interpretations. . . is it impossible to sift through all of that, and all the discussions of holy spirits, etc? I think we would be dead before having even accumulated an outline in bullet point format. . . . :eek:

But in brief, is this Sophia concept not talked about much in the mainstream culture? I don't hear about it from the people around me, and never did.

Is it common or uncommon then, for people self-described as christians, to anthropomorphize ideals or energies?

Meanwhile, reading what Daniel found and posted, I was strongly reminded of Hindu gods and goddesses. There are a lot of fairly direct parallels.

[u-dog]

Nag, nag, nag, nag, nag, nag. . . .
:p:p:p

We've gotten several interesting and varied comments on the subject, but that doesn't mean I wasn't interested to also hear yours. Just in case you thought I wasn't interested, I am.


I hadn't forgotten about you! My busy day turned into two busy days (actually Sunday is Half a busy day followed by Half a catatonic day -- church really takes it outa me.)

Let me start with Sophia. Daniel's excerpt from Wikipedia is fascinating but doesn't seem to touch on the Hebrew beginnings of the idea. In mainstream western Protestantism "Sophia" is a product of the Wisdom tradition in ancient Hebrew thought (Proverbs, Psalms, Ecclesiastes, Job, Song of Solomon) Sophia is the personification of Divine Wisdom. She is understood to have preceded the creation and to have been active in the process of Creation. She is also closely associated with the law of Moses and study of the law is seen as essential in understanding Sophia. Embracing Sophia is associated with happiness and prosperity. Ignoring her or not seeking her is associated with chaos, oppression, and disaster. She is an aspect of God but is often depicted as dancing in the presence of God.

She is actually more closely associated with the SECOND PERSON of the Trinity than with the Holy Spirit in Christian thought since the concept of "Sophia" or divine wisdom is very similar to John's concept of the "Logos" or "word" of God. In John the Logos is a personification of an eternal aspect of the divine which is present at and active in creation and also central to the process of the "Re-creation" (or redemption) of humanity. To seek the logos (incarnate in Jesus Christ) is to seek eternal life and happiness (both in this world and the next) and to turn from the logos is to court disaster. The Logos is more than just a person and more than just a "word" it is the internal "logic" of God ... a blueprint of the nature of God ... a glimpse at the heart of the divine. And the Logos is embodied in the life death and resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth.

Conservative Christians don't like to think or talk about or even acknowledge Sophia for a couple of reasons.

1. Any aspect of God being feminine seriously freaks them out. Regardless of what they may say ... their God is a MAN. HE is a FATHER. HE is a KING Blah blah blah. Its a form of idolatry because what they are really worshipping is maleness. just my opinion of course.

2. Any suggestion that Christian ideas or concepts are not original to Christianity seriously freaks them out. That there was even a proto-understanding of the LOGOS before there was a Jesus Christ to reveal it undermines their exclusivist claims to truth.


In the early 90's the was a PResbyterian women's conference called "Re-imagining" that focused heavily on the concept of "Sophia". ALL HELL BROKE LOOSE. In another age there would have been burnings at the stake. People STILL talk about it almost 20 years later. Yikes.


Ok ... the Holy Spirit... in another post.

[u-dog]

What is 'the holy spirit?' Is this one of many 'things' in Christianity that is not agreed upon by various churches and their respective traditions? Or is there general agreement about what it is? And WHAT is it?

Is it an element? Does it have properties?
Is it considered alive? Is it considered to be part of God, or Godself, or just what?

What does it do? How does one recognize it and discern it from other 'things,' properties or elements? Does it influence human life a little or a lot, and is it difficult to live with?


Zerbie,

This is a very difficult thing to begin to talk about because it is hard to know where to begin (and where to stop :lol:)

Let me start with one REALLY important caveat. Any time a finite being begins to talk about an INfinite being ... the inevitable result is going to be nonsense. Because one definition of human language is "a verbal box" and one definition of "God" is "that which won't fit in a box" Having said that ... lets go.

The Holy Spirit is God. It is an aspect of God's being. It is how we talk about our most intimate experiences of the divine. Christians and Jews understand God as being both "transcendant" (totally other) and "immanent" (totally and intimately present). This is paradox -- a mystical form of non-linear thought. The idea that it is possible for two or more logically inconsistent characteristics to be necessary aspects of the same phenomenon. Transcendence and immanence can neither be harmonized nor divided. When they are placed next to each other they create a dynamic tension. It is the dynamic tension which is the truth ... not the two (or more) poles that create the dynamic tension.

True Dogmatic or Doctrinal language is always an attempt to create this "dynamic tension" which will reveal a truth that cannot be expressed or revealed in any other way. Think about the high wire acts at the circus. It requires two poles and a cable stretched between. The show cannot happen without these elements ... but they are not the show. The show is the tension contained in the cable that stretches between the poles. The show is what happens on the cable when the lady in the pink tutu and the parasol steps out onto the cable for the first time. The show is the tightness in the chests of the audience watching the lady in the pink tutu.

In Christianity the truth is not the humanity of Jesus. The truth is not the divinity of Jesus. The truth is the tension between the humanity and the divinity of Jesus. The truth is what happens inside you when you begin to incorporate that tension between humanity and divinity into your own life. Jesus cannot logically be BOTH human and divine and yet he MUST be both.

God CANNOT logically be both ONE and THREE but holding both of these aspects of God at the same time creates a dynamic tension that prevents us from reducing God to a manageable little reality that will fit neatly into our pigeon holes. The truth of who and what God is can only be experienced in the context of this dynamic tension... this paradox... this mystery.

In other words, doctrinal language is not primarily descriptive language. It is primarily a creative and functional use of language. I use doctrinal language to create a space wherein I can experience the reality of a God I cannot describe. DOES THIS MAKE ANY SENSE AT ALL?

IF So ... What is the Holy Spirit?

It is an aspect of God. It is not the WHOLE of what God is. The Holy Spirit is that of God which is nearer to me than my own breath. The Holy Spirit is that which kindles in me the compassion of God when I am moved to respond to the brokeness of another human being. The Holy Spirit is that which gives me the courage to do what I know is right even though it is costly and dangerous. The Holy Spirit is what takes the cold, dead words of Scripture and transforms them into the life-giving word of God. The Holy Spirit is that which gives me words to say in the face of unutterable tragedy. The Holy Spirit is what enables me to find blessing in the midst of the shit that life sometimes dishes out. The Holy Spirit is what enables me to confidently put one foot in front of the other when I am walking around in a darkened world.

I will stop now and let you guide me in what else I should say.

[Zerbie]

Gosh, thank you.

There is a lot more substance in Christianity than I ever thought from the way people have talked about it. Why don't people discuss these matters of real interest instead of quoting (and mis-quoting) brief excerpts? In the churches I've visited, the sermons are so short and they never got anyplace near these important topics. Why not?

This is the kind of information I was looking for when I was a little girl begging to be sent to Sunday School, which never happened. Based on what I've seen from churches since, I wouldn't have gotten this there. Does this never get discussed in the mainstream culture?

And where's Andy? He recommended Juan de la Cruz and I am having an extraordinary time with a translation of Dark Night - every night in fact, for a few minutes before bed. I can hardly put it down to turn the light off. Why did no one recommend me to this book before?!

I need to ask Andy some questions about the book - I think the chapter that doesn't make sense to me is because of the translation. The translator took some freedom to change meaning in certain places, which I'm watching for as I read.


Zerbie,

This is paradox -- a mystical form of non-linear thought. The idea that it is possible for two or more logically inconsistent characteristics to be necessary aspects of the same phenomenon.

True Dogmatic or Doctrinal language is always an attempt to create this "dynamic tension" which will reveal a truth that cannot be expressed or revealed in any other way.

The truth is what happens inside you when you begin to incorporate that tension between humanity and divinity into your own life. Jesus cannot logically be BOTH human and divine and yet he MUST be both.


The truth of who and what God is can only be experienced in the context of this dynamic tension... this paradox... this mystery.

In other words, doctrinal language is not primarily descriptive language. It is primarily a creative and functional use of language. I use doctrinal language to create a space wherein I can experience the reality of a God I cannot describe. DOES THIS MAKE ANY SENSE AT ALL?



Of course it makes sense. That is the way the universe works.

When someone speaks about God nature in this way, just think of the single photon in a sealed experiment which is faced with two perforations and is supposed to choose which hole to travel through. Very simple choice: it travels through both holes simultaneously and emerges at the other side still a single photon. That is the nature of things. The pigeon holes are there in the everyday world for our convenience, but they are somewhat like numbers: representational.

Back to the topic. You paint a very beautiful picture of the Holy Spirit. Is it ever harsh? Is it ever difficult to live with? Or only sweet? Does it move in phases? Does it impact your body? Is it distinguishable from the life force in animals and plants, or IS it the life force in animals and plants?

As to what I was looking for in the first place with this thread, all my questions that still haven't been answered are in post #6. :)

[u-dog]

Back to the topic. You paint a very beautiful picture of the Holy Spirit. Is it ever harsh? Is it ever difficult to live with? Or only sweet?

In my experience never harsh but almost always difficult. The Holy Spirit is primarily about the task of transformation, i.e. change, i.e. growth which always hurts to some degree. I would use words like "implacable" and "insatiable" and "annoyingly persistent" but not harsh. My mom used to say that you can say "no" to God as often as you like until you finally say "yes". thats the Holy Spirit in my experience.

Does it move in phases?

Absolutely.

Does it impact your body?

I never really thought about. I suppose so.

Is it distinguishable from the life force in animals and plants, or IS it the life force in animals and plants?

orthodox Christian thought has always shied away from Pantheism (the idea that God IS all things) Its another tension. God is with and in all things but is also separate from all things created.

As to what I was looking for in the first place with this thread, all my questions that still haven't been answered are in post #6. :)

OK then. I'll go there next. Isn't this fun? :)

[Zerbie]

Grrr. I've been typing and typing but because I typed inside the quote brackets the software thinks my message is too short to submit without typing some more. This is the some more.

In my experience never harsh but almost always difficult. The Holy Spirit is primarily about the task of transformation, i.e. change, i.e. growth which always hurts to some degree. I would use words like "implacable" and "insatiable" and "annoyingly persistent"

Okay, I'm getting a picture. Do you think most christians would characterize it similarly to the way you have here, or not?



Absolutely.

I would love to hear about how it moves in phases, if that's okay with you. Or anyone else who has experienced it moving in phases. Anyone?




Is it distinguishable from the life force in animals and plants, or IS it the life force in animals and plants?


orthodox Christian thought has always shied away from Pantheism (the idea that God IS all things) Its another tension. God is with and in all things but is also separate from all things created.

Well, the question isn't really: is the holy spirit an animal or a plant, but is it the life force within them or is it separate from the life force, that life force being some other facet of the emanation of existence/God. I'm interpreting your answer to that question as "both," implying therefore a 'yes' that it IS the life force, and there is not a separate one.

OK then. I'll go there next. Isn't this fun? :)

Yes!! :D

[Daniel]

The Holy Spirit is God. It is an aspect of God's being. It is how we talk about our most intimate experiences of the divine. Christians and Jews understand God as being both "transcendant" (totally other) and "immanent" (totally and intimately present). This is paradox -- a mystical form of non-linear thought. The idea that it is possible for two or more logically inconsistent characteristics to be necessary aspects of the same phenomenon. Transcendence and immanence can neither be harmonized nor divided. When they are placed next to each other they create a dynamic tension. It is the dynamic tension which is the truth ... not the two (or more) poles that create the dynamic tension.

So God really is Light? A wave and a particle at the same time. Two "inconsistent characteristics" of the same phenomena. Who'd a thunk?

Ok. I am trying to be humorous. But it is interesting to think about.

[Zerbie]

So God really is Light? A wave and a particle at the same time. Two "inconsistent characteristics" of the same phenomena. Who'd a thunk?

Ok. I am trying to be humorous. But it is interesting to think about.

I don't take that as humorous at all. Light has the very properties Udog described (and I was the one who went there with the example of the photon.) God and light are referenced together throughout many traditions and many generations. I take light as a sort of foundational 'atom' of God's emanation to create the universe.

[Daniel]

The verse I am the light of the world (John 8:12) come to mind.

[u-dog]

In my experience never harsh but almost always difficult. The Holy Spirit is primarily about the task of transformation, i.e. change, i.e. growth which always hurts to some degree. I would use words like "implacable" and "insatiable" and "annoyingly persistent"

Okay, I'm getting a picture. Do you think most christians would characterize it similarly to the way you have here, or not?

All? no. Most? yes, I think so

I would love to hear about how it moves in phases, if that's okay with you. Or anyone else who has experienced it moving in phases. Anyone?


My experience is that the Holy Spirit leads one step at a time. She doesn't lay out a whole multi-step plan. If I follow faithfully one step... then The Holy Spirit lays out the next one. If I misstep then the HS lays out a right step from there. (sort of like a GPS unit when you miss a turn -- "Re-calculating" :lol: )

[BruceChris]

I hope that this isn't too off topic, but it does have to do with Patriarchy, Gender, and many complaints of Lesbianism

The 8 Re-imagining gatherings were held in the Minneapolis metro area, the first in 1993. I was able to attend three, including the last.


In the early 90's the was a PResbyterian women's conference called "Re-imagining"(attended by 2000 women and 80 men, and there was a LONG waiting list) that focused heavily on the concept of "Sophia". ALL HELL BROKE LOOSE. In another age there would have been burnings at the stake. People STILL talk about it almost 20 years later. Yikes. To taste some of the outrage:

"themes and content of the conference which ranged from direct attacks on traditional Christian doctrine and the celebration of homosexuality, to overt paganism, witchcraft, and New Age/Occult ritual".

http://www.watchman.org/reltop/reimagin.htm

http://www.brfwitness.org/Articles/1994v29n3.htm

I was unable to attend the first Re-imagining conferance, to my lasting regret. Many (male) voices from the hierarchies of many mainline denominations complained very loudly, and in their church publications that women can't DO this sort of thing, it's heresy, and even blasphemy. Some women were fired from their jobs. You CAN'T be a feminist AND a Christian, many of them said.

It is my belief that these men were saying, in their own way, that women are not made in the image of the Almighty. The Catholics and hardline Conservative Christians have even made this a part of their doctrine. I maintain that you cannot be a Christian and NOT be a feminist. I am sorry. I am unable to NOT feel judgmental about these men, for that reason. Come judgment day, I am sure that we will all be suitably enlightened.

The theme, "God, Immanent and Transcendent" was the title of one of the
addresses given by one of the (women) theologians, of which there were many, at one of the gatherings I attended.

Yes, Sophia is the name given to the wisdom of God, personified as a woman.

Conservative Christians don't like to..... Conservative Christians are afraid of women, and therefore also afraid of homosexuality.


Its a form of idolatry because what they are really worshipping is maleness.
Their own, as far as I can see - BC
just my opinion of course.

O.K., end of rant. In the Christian Church, there are many weak, craven people. And many wonderful, loving people. I hope that this isn't too far off topic, but I Was There, well, immediately afterward, and at later gatherings, and this was A Formative Experience in my Life

Peace and Love, Bruce Chris

"Re-Membering and Re-imagining", 1995, The Pilgrim Press, Nancy Berneking and Pamela Carter Joern, ISBN 0-8298-1074-9

And now, back to the Holy Spirit

[u-dog]

Polly and I were living in St Paul in 93. I attended a few events (Sweet Honey and the Rock concert for one ... WOW!). Polly was a small part of the planning team for the event. I had three women from my congregation attend the conference. One fairly conservative, one middle of the road, and one fairly radical (my wife). All three appreciated the experience and none of them were shocked by its content. It was the "Presbyterian Layman" and Institute for Religion and Democracy who lied through their teeth and blew the whole thing out of proportion. Pretty much the same tactics that are being used against President Obama right now.

[dsdrane]

The show is the tension contained in the cable that stretches between the poles. The show is what happens on the cable when the lady in the pink tutu and the parasol steps out onto the cable for the first time. The show is the tightness in the chests of the audience watching the lady in the pink tutu.

This is a great and wonderful description.

God CANNOT logically be both ONE and THREE but holding both of these aspects of God at the same time creates a dynamic tension that prevents us from reducing God to a manageable little reality that will fit neatly into our pigeon holes. The truth of who and what God is can only be experienced in the context of this dynamic tension... this paradox... this mystery.

Literalists/empiricists cannot stand this. But then they also don't like poetry, art, etc.

In other words, doctrinal language is not primarily descriptive language. It is primarily a creative and functional use of language. I use doctrinal language to create a space wherein I can experience the reality of a God I cannot describe. DOES THIS MAKE ANY SENSE AT ALL?

Yes, yes, yes.

The Holy Spirit is that which gives me the courage to do what I know is right even though it is costly and dangerous. The Holy Spirit is what takes the cold, dead words of Scripture and transforms them into the life-giving word of God. The Holy Spirit is that which gives me words to say in the face of unutterable tragedy. The Holy Spirit is what enables me to find blessing in the midst of the shit that life sometimes dishes out. The Holy Spirit is what enables me to confidently put one foot in front of the other when I am walking around in a darkened world.

The HS is my better angel, my good conscience, and the nudging Jewish grandmother I never had.

[BruceChris]

Feminine or Gender-transcendent God

Christian feminists believe that gender equality within the church cannot be achieved without rethinking the portrayal and understanding of God as a masculine being.[27] The theological concept of Sophia, usually seen as replacing the Holy Spirit in the Trinity, is often used to fulfill this desire for symbols which reflect women's religious experiences. How Sophia is configured is not static, but usually filled with emotions and individual expression.[28] For some Christian feminists, the Sophia concept is found in a search for women who reflect contemporary feminist ideals in both the Old and New Testament. Some figures co-opted for this purpose include the Virgin Mary, Mary Magdalene,[29] Eve,[30] and Esther.[31] Others see God as entirely gender-transcendent[32] or focus on the feminine aspects of God and Jesus[33]

These are not exact or well defined answers. Then again, any religion that offers exact answers is probably one that most of us would just as soon stay away from.

EDIT: Drane, I like your post.

Very Amateur Theologian, Bruce Chris

[Daniel]

Literalists/empiricists cannot stand this. But then they also don't like poetry, art, etc.

Oh so true! We live, by-and-large, in a left-brain dominant world- that is- a world run by left-brain dominant people. And they are usually men.

Women have more access, more connective tissue between the hemisphere's in their brains. They start talking about something and go from thing to thing to thing (going back and forth between hemisphere's - between feeling and thought), and then wind up at their point, while men just go slam bam into what they want (no...I am not talking about sex but the same approach applies!). Why? Because of the connective tissue! It seems like such a simple thing, but it isn't. And yes, it also takes both sides of the brain to appreciate poetry. When I read about this (years ago), I really 'got it'. Those who can see the poetry in scripture express themselves quite differently that those who don't.

Sorry for the tangent. But sometimes I think the thing to be able to do is to speak the the person one is speaking with in the manner in which they think, not what they think.

[BenL]

Feminine or Gender-transcendent God

Christian feminists believe that gender equality within the church cannot be achieved without rethinking the portrayal and understanding of God as a masculine being.[27] The theological concept of Sophia, usually seen as replacing the Holy Spirit in the Trinity, is often used to fulfill this desire for symbols which reflect women's religious experiences. How Sophia is configured is not static, but usually filled with emotions and individual expression.[28] For some Christian feminists, the Sophia concept is found in a search for women who reflect contemporary feminist ideals in both the Old and New Testament. Some figures co-opted for this purpose include the Virgin Mary, Mary Magdalene,[29] Eve,[30] and Esther.[31] Others see God as entirely gender-transcendent[32] or focus on the feminine aspects of God and Jesus[33]

These are not exact or well defined answers. Then again, any religion that offers exact answers is probably one that most of us would just as soon stay away from.

EDIT: Drane, I like your post.

Very Amateur Theologian, Bruce Chris


My concept of gender and God is undergoing an explosion of meaningfulness as a result of the journey I have been on with my trans spouse. At one point in my life, when I was young, I believed and took for granted that God was male. As I was exposed to feminist thought as an adult, I began to think that God was female, or, maybe, gender neutral. Since my spouse began transition from female to male, I have come to see God as both male and female. Here is the feeble logic I have been able to muster to the question:

If God is creator of all things, and if creation is an expression of the divine and a reflection of God's love, then gender difference is somehow part of God. The creative force in human beings and, indeed, in most life forms, is divided into male and female. In God, such divisions pre-existed in a unity we can't understand except in glimpses. For men and women to reflect and embody equally the image of God, then God somehow is both female and male. It's how God can rightly be called father and mother, even though that is just a human metaphor. No human being can comprehend God's totality, which by nature is infinite.

Oooohhh, my head is starting to hurt. :confused: :injured: :o

[andrewlittle]

Zerbie, first I want to say that you've been getting some amazing answers from u-dog. I doubt I could do any better or add much to his remarks.

I'll pick one of your questions, though, and add my two cents worth.

(Now, remember, I am something of a cynic when it comes to church-goers.) Do all Christians think this way. I would say very few. it's not that they would disagree - it's just they don't bother to go there in the first place. It is too deep - too complex - too uncomfortable.

Your questions are the stuff of deep theological reflection, as are u-dog's answers. I have to tell you, give me two or three people like you in a church and I would be in heaven. Your's is an inquiring mind trying to wrap itself around the divine - not stuff the divine in a nice comfy box. I love it.

My opinion on whether the HS is the life force of creatures is a little heretical possibly. We are each made in the image of God. If you look at us, the likeness to God is unlikely to be physical. If we look at the variety of ways people think and the way cognitive processes work and even the different kinds of intelligences, I doubt the likeness to God is in our mental capacities, either.

That is where the soul, for want of a better word, enters into the equation for me. It is the essence of God that is in each of us - the very core of our being that calls us to community (when we listen). That essence has sometimes been called the spark. And I envision the HS to be the breath or wind that fans the spark - that calls us to God and Godliness in our dealings with each other.

Whether the wind is the result of a gentle breeze created by the wings of a peaceful dove, or the powerful gust that fans the spark into flames that engulf us in the firey work of creation, it is still the breath of life. How that is manifest in each life is a little different. In Jenna's it has been a constant wafting breath that has always called her towards a passion for God's justice and mercy. In my case, it was a hurricane that that kncoked me off my feet and instilled in me an awe that I had never had before. (Of course, being as obtuse as I am, it took a little more effort for me.)

Our reaction the the HS is ours to choose. We can feel the breeze in our hair and on our face and react by loving God and neighbor more, or we can turn our back for fear of getting dust in our eyes.

I'll leave it at that for now - I don't know if I'm adding anything or not.

[Zerbie]

This is great stuff, Andy. I need to be talking to you more.

So, do churches not talk about this much then? Do pastors not speak much of these things? Why not?

What about the questions asked in post #6? They have mostly not been addressed. Are they things no one has an opinion about?

I want to come back to this - I have a lot more to say and to ask, particularly of Andy, but also in general. Busy today. . . .

[andrewlittle]

... to get to the questions in #6 tomorrow. They require some thought that, at my ripe age, I cannot muster late in the evening. Just wanted you to know I heard you, Zerbie.

[Zerbie]

All? no. Most? yes, I think so



My experience is that the Holy Spirit leads one step at a time. She doesn't lay out a whole multi-step plan. If I follow faithfully one step... then The Holy Spirit lays out the next one. If I misstep then the HS lays out a right step from there. (sort of like a GPS unit when you miss a turn -- "Re-calculating" :lol: )

Love your analogy. :D

So, would you characterize the holy spirit as ever-present and more importantly, ever-perceptible? This sounds fairly constant to me. Is it then something that does not move in large cyclic phases?

Darn - I find I can't ask the question any other way to clarify what it is I'm trying to find out. I guess I'm asking if the holy spirit is of the nature of a wave. ? :confused: (Not really sure that's what I'm asking, it's been a long day!)

[Pablo Rafael]

The symbols of fire, wind and the dove are derived from events recorded in the Bible. When Jesus was baptized by John in the Jordan River, the Holy Spirit appeared as a dove. On the day of Pentecost after Jesus has died and risen from the dead His disciples were hiding indoors when the power of the holy Spirit came upon them. The HS came in the sound of a rushing wind and as flames appearing over their heads. From that point on the disciples were tireless in their spread of the Gospel message.

I think fire and wind are great symbols for the Holy Spirit. They are energy, not substance. Wind is not easily illustrated so it hasn't become a commonly used symbol; fire and the dove have. The dove seems less effective as a symbol than fire in my opinion.

I think that the work of the Holy Spirit is often imperceptible. And when it is apparent, it is impossible to measure. Of all the attempts people have made to define and describe God I like the simple statement of John, "God is love". Love is hard to see, hard to measure, but its effect is real and powerful. In fact, I think love is more powerful than any other force in the universe.

[u-dog]

Love your analogy. :D

So, would you characterize the holy spirit as ever-present and more importantly, ever-perceptible?

Definitely ever-present. There is never a moment when the Spirit is absent. Ever-perceptible? no... but that has more to do with our openess to perceive than with any characteristic of the Spirit him/her/itself.

This sounds fairly constant to me. Is it then something that does not move in large cyclic phases? Can you say more about what you mean by cyclic?

Darn - I find I can't ask the question any other way to clarify what it is I'm trying to find out. I guess I'm asking if the holy spirit is of the nature of a wave. ? :confused: (Not really sure that's what I'm asking, it's been a long day!)

The metaphor of "wave" sounds right in my experience. I have never surfed (other than body surfing) but I often think when I'm preaching that this must be what surfing is like. It feels like the Spirit comes up behind and lifts me. There is an element of skill in lining yourself up with the wave and letting it have you at just the right moment but all of the power and energy belong to the wave. Also, if you miss the wave ... there is another one right behind it that offers another new opportunity to ride. Is that what you mean by "cyclic?"

[Zerbie]

Definitely ever-present. There is never a moment when the Spirit is absent. Ever-perceptible? no... but that has more to do with our openess to perceive than with any characteristic of the Spirit him/her/itself.

Can you say more about what you mean by cyclic?



The metaphor of "wave" sounds right in my experience. I have never surfed (other than body surfing) but I often think when I'm preaching that this must be what surfing is like. It feels like the Spirit comes up behind and lifts me. There is an element of skill in lining yourself up with the wave and letting it have you at just the right moment but all of the power and energy belong to the wave. Also, if you miss the wave ... there is another one right behind it that offers another new opportunity to ride. Is that what you mean by "cyclic?"

Hmm. Not sure. Though I think my meaning of cyclic or phasic includes that sense of being in the zone WITH the force that is acting through you.

By cyclic, or phasic, I mean rather: does it manifest in annual cycles, or seasonal cycles? Does this spirit make you energized in one cycle and consume your energy so you have none available during the other? Does it have you reaching out towards the world in one phase and curling inwardly during the other?

That is what I mean by the nature of a wave. Alternating phases: in then out, high then low. That sort of alternation.

[Zerbie]

The symbols of fire, wind and the dove are derived from events recorded in the Bible.

Okay. Yeah. This is where my questions are heading. What I'm wondering is, what properties has this spirit that is was perceived in the ways it was.

What were the conditions that it was perceived one time as a dove, at other times as wind and fire? It would suggest it shows itself differently according to the qualities of the one it is touching? Or is this the wrong tree to bark up?

When Jesus was baptized by John in the Jordan River, the Holy Spirit appeared as a dove.
Doves seem less violent than flames. Is there a reason Jesus got a dove and the other fellas got flames?




disciples were hiding indoors when the power of the holy Spirit came upon them. The HS came in the sound of a rushing wind and as flames appearing over their heads.

This really gets to why I asked the question. Who saw flames over their heads? They did? Or strangers did? Everyone in town saw it? They all saw flames? Did no one see doves? Did everyone feel wind emanating from the disciples as well? How long did the flames last? An hour? A week? 6 months? 5 years? The rest of their lives? Was it constant, or did it come and go?

Did the flames have heat? One would assume so. What was the effect of this heat on the bodies of the disciples? On those around them? Did anyone jump in the water to get away? I am serious! Or was everyone filled with joy when it appeared?

Could the flame be metaphorical? If so, why choose the symbol of flame? Since it seems to recur insistently, it would seem based in a real experience - real fire - or something fire-like. The spirit consumes one, AS a fire consumes debris?




I think fire and wind are great symbols for the Holy Spirit. They are energy, not substance. Wind is not easily illustrated so it hasn't become a commonly used symbol; fire and the dove have. The dove seems less effective as a symbol than fire in my opinion.

I'm connecting to this. The Holy Spirit is fire-like and wind-like at varying times, because it is like a kind of spiritual-kinetic energy.

I can see why the wind might not recur often as a symbol, as it would be more difficult to render in painting, and particularly in sculpture, than fire or a bird. But why in your opinion is the dove a less effective symbol than fire?


Love is hard to see, hard to measure, but its effect is real and powerful. In fact, I think love is more powerful than any other force in the universe.

And to the extent that this spirit is god, it is love. ?
I can see love being characterized as fire-like or as bird-like, depending upon the angle from which one is looking. Or even as wind-like. Yes, I can see that.

[Pablo Rafael]

Okay. Yeah. This is where my questions are heading. What I'm wondering is, what properties has this spirit that is was perceived in the ways it was.

What were the conditions that it was perceived one time as a dove, at other times as wind and fire? It would suggest it shows itself differently according to the qualities of the one it is touching? Or is this the wrong tree to bark up?
As far as I know the Holy Spirit only appeared as a dove at the baptism of Jesus. The gospel of Mark says, "As Jesus was coming up out of the water, he saw heaven being torn open and the Spirit descending on him like a dove." Mark 1:10 Lukes adds, "...in bodily form like a dove."

The Bible more commonly uses the wind or breath imagery for the Spirit of God. At the very start of the Bible in the creation account it says. "...the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters." Genesis 1:2 The Spirit was the power of God in creation. Also in the creation account God "breathed into [Adam's] nostrils the Breath of Life." Gen 2:7 In Ezekiel chapter 37 God gives Ezekiel a vision where all the dead are raised to life. The Lord says "Come from the four winds O breath, and breath into these slain that they may live."

I think you are right that the Spririt of God comes to people in many different ways depending on the circumstances and the person. God came to Elijah as a gentle whisper, to Moses in the fire of a burining bush, to many in dreams or visions, to Saint Paul as a voice that knocked him off his horse.

I think that "God" and "The Spirit" are so interchangeable of terms that it impossible to split them apart. The idea of the Holy Spirit as a seprate entity from God comes about because we humans like to compartementalize things.

Doves seem less violent than flames. Is there a reason Jesus got a dove and the other fellas got flames?
You have me puzzled here. Just a thought: The disciples of Jesus had just had their leader executed, their hopes dashed, their live disrupted, and they were afraid that the authorities would come for them next. What they needed was strength, so the HS came showing power.

This really gets to why I asked the question. Who saw flames over their heads? They did? Or strangers did? Everyone in town saw it? They all saw flames? Did no one see doves? Did everyone feel wind emanating from the disciples as well? How long did the flames last? An hour? A week? 6 months? 5 years? The rest of their lives? Was it constant, or did it come and go?
All it says is, "When the day of Pentecost (a Jewish festival) came, they were all together in one place. Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them . All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit..." Acts 2: 2-3 Later it says that others around heard the sound. It is not recorded that anyone else saw the fire or if the disciples were out where people could see them.

The disciples immediately began to tell the Gospel message of Jesus, and no mention of the flames appears again, so I assume it was a short-lived event. The rest of the book of Acts tells of the disciples, especially Peter and Paul, as they fearlessly tell about the crucified and risen Christ. No more cowering in the corner.

Did the flames have heat? One would assume so. What was the effect of this heat on the bodies of the disciples? On those around them? Did anyone jump in the water to get away? I am serious! Or was everyone filled with joy when it appeared?
Well, they were filled with power. I don't know about the joy. The Bible just gives these few sentences about the event, though the coming of the Holy Spirit is mentioned in the Bible multiple times after this event. The Bible gives very few details.

Could the flame be metaphorical? If so, why choose the symbol of flame? Since it seems to recur insistently, it would seem based in a real experience - real fire - or something fire-like. The spirit consumes one, AS a fire consumes debris?
I think most anything in the Bible could be metaphorical. I think that we miss the meaning of the Bible if we try to over-analyze events and stories. I think the Bible tries to convey large sweeps of meaning not picky details. Often that meaning comes in metaphors, for how else can an unfathomable God make himself known to us who cannot comprehend him.

The imagry of fire in the Bible is very common. Oftentimes it is in the context of burning away the dross (as in smelting) or the weeds (as in farming). Many times judgement is represented as fire, the burning away of the evil in the world. God showed himself during the Hebrew Exodus from Egypt as a fire at night, and as mentioned earlier, to Moses in the bush that did not burn up.


Why in your opinion is the dove a less effective symbol than fire?
Doves seem too tame and too gentle to me. (Might I say rather wimpy.) Plus they remind me of pidgeons which cover everything in Los Angeles with bird droppings. Not my favorite bird. I would have chosen an eagle as the symbol if anyone had asked me.

[andrewlittle]

... a personal story might help tell you my thoughts about the Holy Spirit, Zerbie.

For months I had experienced what I thought were random ideas of God and God’s relationship to the universe. Despite efforts to push them away, these notions entered my head at the most inappropriate times. I knew, without doubt, that I was slipping into insanity. I wasn’t ready, except there were times that the idea of just letting my mind wander off was attractive.

In April 1996 I made a final, and seemingly fatal, decision. L. (my wife at the time) went to church that Sunday and, as usual, I stayed home. Upon arriving at church the Music Director, Beckie B., asked L. about me. Beckie had been in one of the prayer groups, but she wouldn’t have known me if we bumped into each other. She then offered to be available anytime, should I need to talk, and told L. that she believed God would be knocking soon and I might need help. What occurred concurrently a few miles away seems implausible, but is true.

At basically the same time, I put on my headphones to listen to some loud rock and roll, a favorite Sunday morning pursuit. It helped to chase the voices from my head. I was listening to a song, by the group Blues Traveler, I’d heard dozens of times before. The words ‘Jesus Christ died for your sins’ were clearly audible in the song. The problem was that none words on that CD were discernable and I knew it. I pulled out the CD jacket and the words I saw were nothing like those I was hearing. Shaken, I turned off the stereo and went out to my woodshop in the garage where I turned on the TV. Yes, I had a TV in the garage – it’s where I went to smoke. I was trembling as I changed from one station to another. I had never before seen a TV preacher on every channel, and they were all giving the same message - Christ died for my sins. I knew I had lost it. I wanted to run, but didn’t know to where. I just stood there motionless. And then a blackness, the likes of which I had never seen, enveloped me. I had always described depression as a dark hole you saw yourself descending into. I knew, without knowing how, this was the deepest depression I had ever experienced and I wouldn’t be coming back. I remember picking up my sharpest tool, a drawknife, and resolutely deciding I wasn’t going into that hole. I was ready to die.

The rest of the memory seems more like the recollection of a hallucination, except with much more clarity. I remember, with no sense of time, being aware of all of the times I had hurt others, even in the smallest way. I was fully aware of all my sins, a concept with which I was totally unfamiliar. I had an overwhelming sense of sorrow and remorse while, at the same time, experienced the peace, calm and security of knowing I was all right. I knew, for the first time in my life, the feeling that came with a sense of forgiveness. It seemed as though the thickest, softest comforter imaginable had swallowed me. Accepting that unconditional forgiveness has continued to be a difficulty.

Upon L.’s arrival home she found me face down on the garage floor, knees under my chest, sobbing and moaning. She helped me up, sat me down and, after looking into my face, called Beckie. Beckie talked, prayed and cried with me into the night. She knew I was in a strange place and was feeling very unsure. Logic told me it had to be hallucinations of insanity, but I knew in my heart it was real. I also remembered myriad bible passages and comments, mostly from my mother and her friends, from decades before. They had never made any sense, nor held any interest for me, but now I knew I needed to cling to them. I can now thank God, and the obedience and faithfulness of many others, for my very soul.

I began going to church with L., crying at almost every sermon and song that seemed to bore directly into my heart. I was invited out of the blue to join a small group led by a young couple that had left Liberty some years earlier, and whom I had only met once or twice by accident. Their group was for college students and young adults, but they welcomed this forty-three year-old as one of their own. Over the next two years I was taught and loved by a group of ‘twenty-somethings’. It didn’t stop there. Everywhere I turned were people who could have only been sent by God, at just the right moment. My life somehow seemed orchestrated by and toward God.

Within months of this event in my life, I found the courage to walk away from my suicidal lifestyle.

I believe the HS was active in a number of ways.

At first, the HS gently nudged me, but I did not listen. Then the HS knocked me off my horse, so to speak. The HS was present in the actions of Becky, who responded in unquestioning love. The HS was present in church, this time gently again calling to my heart.

I don't know if this adds anything. I found myself unable to enter into deep theological conversation at the moment, but I do emotion - so I'm offering it as an example.

[Zerbie]

Yeah. That's the kind of power, motion, function, I was asking after.
If there is any tradition/precedent for viewing the holy spirit as a kind of raw 'knock your socks off' power.

Like in that book you recommended me to, a dangerous dance between illness and the spirit. Could it be the holy spirit bringing those conditions? I was wondering when I started this thread if raw rushes of non-ordinary experience are part of the vocabulary of christian experience, if there was a name for pointing to such. This spirit power thing would seem to be the place to describe it, if there is one.

[andrewlittle]

If there is any tradition/precedent for viewing the holy spirit as a kind of raw 'knock your socks off' power. ...
I was wondering when I started this thread if raw rushes of non-ordinary experience are part of the vocabulary of christian experience, if there was a name for pointing to such. This spirit power thing would seem to be the place to describe it, if there is one.

Pentecostals generally believe deeply in the raw power of the HS - matter of fact, some groups (like the Brethren) require that kind of "born again" experience.

Others may refer to it as "radical conversion" in a case like mine.

Liberal and many mainline churches generally have very little room for this kind of experience, however. I found blank stares and eyes rolling back in heads when I tried to talk to people about it. That is why I attended both liberal and conservative churches for a number of years. The conservative church could understand and help me put my experience into language. The liberal churches helped keep my head on straight theologically.

This is only one kind of experience of the HS. It is important to note that, when people are receptive, the Spirit can move in very gentle ways.