Love vs. Truth

[dsdrane]

Ok, how about these apples?

Jimmy Carter, 39th President of the United States, has called out some of the more egregious, hateful criticism of Barack Obama as racist.

We know the Republicans have to call this bunk, but it appears the Democrats are also joining in. They seem to be running from Carter in droves.

The Dems think they are taking "the high road", but at what cost? They love their President -- or, at the very least, they love their Party -- regardless, they are being disingenuous.

Racism is at play in the national discourse. See the picture of Obama as a witch doctor; take note of accusations of the birthers; take note of those saying he's a Muslim; take note of Joe Wilson's recent outburst (the same man who told Strom Thurmond's bi-racial daughter she should've kept her "shameful secret" private...after Strom had already died).

I can understand why the Republicans don't want to go down the "racist" road, but the Dems who say "no, no, no" do so for what -- for love or truth?

They do it for neither, unfortunately. They know the truth, and yet they deny it. Does their "love" -- for all the right reasons -- justify the verbal gymnastics?

I don't think it does. What do you think?

[Jennifer5]

I don't understand... what is the 'truth'? Why is it wrong to support something out of love? I think I'm missing important information...

[dsdrane]

I don't understand... what is the 'truth'? Why is it wrong to support something out of love? I think I'm missing important information...

My household has seen a singing frenzy over the last few days: two Rosh Hashanah services Friday night, another two Saturday morning and afternoon, and two church services today...plus puppy-duty. Oy, we spent the afternoon today napping.

The "truth" I was referring to is, what I (and apparently Jimmy Carter) believes is a certain amount of racism in the more virulent criticisms of President Obama. Further, it's my contention that the Democrats -- many, if not most, of them -- seem perfectly willing to throw this truth overboard out of "love": love of Party, love of staying in power, love of staying "above the fray"...perhaps even love of Obama, whom they feel will be damaged by such race talk.

Also, the whole "love vs. truth" thing came up in another thread, and I thought this bifurcation is playing an interesting part in this particular situation.

I do "get" the Realpolitik at work in President Obama pooh-poohing the racial angle of some of his more unhinged critics out there, but the motivating force -- whatever it is -- is not truth. The racism is there for anyone with eyes to see.

Perhaps this is why I love Jimmy Carter so much...and why the right-wing hates him so much. He throws truth in their face...and it makes their heads explode.

He also throws truth at the center and left-wing. What do we do with it? Do we ignore it as inconvenient? Do we pooh-pooh it as the musings of an elderly former President? Or do we recognize it and grapple with it...and, if we do, what is our motivation? Truth? Love? Something else?

I'm just asking. I think it's fascinating. And I think it goes to the core of how and when change happens.

For instance, I want the Democrats to stay in power, because I believe their platform and agenda most closely aligns with my own. (This is not saying much, considering we only have two parties, but...you know what I mean.) So, here's the question: how do I as a voter and the politicians I support balance truth and love. Truth would dictate forcing a conversation on race, or homophobia, or whatever...however, doing so might endanger their re-election, which would scuttle the whole damn thing.

Truth seems to be a minority-protection issue; whereas love seems to be majority rule. I.e., love (with the Democrats) seems to help the most people for all the right reasons...but it doesn't necessarily advance issues of race or homophobia or immigration, etc.

Politics and governing, then, would seem to be a battle, where love and truth don't ultimately matter. Which means the premise of this whole thread is irrelevant. Irrelevant as it may be, however, these motivators still play a significant part in how decisions and policy are made, so I thought it was worth discussing.

I don't know if that clears anything up or muddies the waters further.:o

[Jennifer5]

Interesting. So are you asking at what point love overpowers truth? As if we're ignoring the truth out of love? Or perhaps I am misreading what you wrote?

[u-dog]

Perhaps this is why I love Jimmy Carter so much...and why the right-wing hates him so much. He throws truth in their face...and it makes their heads explode.



Would that this were true. Everything would be so EASY. (except the cleanup of course)

[dsdrane]

Interesting. So are you asking at what point love overpowers truth? As if we're ignoring the truth out of love? Or perhaps I am misreading what you wrote?

I guess I'm questioning whether acting out of Love, at the expense (even temporarily) of Truth, is justifiable.

I'm not talking about telling someone: yes, that dress does make you look fat. I'm talking about "bigger" issues of confronting ignorance -- the kind of ignorance that threatens violence, like racism and homophobia.

We seem to be able to embrace Love pretty well, but we get skittish about embracing Truth. Why? Is it because, deep down, we fear that Truth is not on our side?

Eugene Robinson, one of my favorite news "talking heads" and a columnist and associate editor at The Washington Post wrote this (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/09/17/AR2009091703566.html?hpid=opinionsbox1)the other day. He acknowledges that it is difficult for President Obama to address any racism because of his special role at the moment but that this should not let the rest of us off the hook. Racism is out there; it's a factor in our national debate, a dangerous one; it's wrong and it's harmful...and that's the Truth.

Anti-gay forces wield "God's Word", arguing that homosexuality is unnatural, sinful and against God's plan for us. This is their Truth. I have no desire to be impolite, but they're simply wrong. This is a Truth that many of us have come to know that requires no written corroboration. No book ever proved this to me. No book could. I know it. I feel it.

I've been fortunate enough to know and feel Love, too. But this is different; this is Truth.

Fine...hooray for me. So how do I go about communicating this to others? At what point does Truth get watered down enough to be sufficiently palatable to approach our enemies "out of Love"?

[Jennifer5]

I guess I'm questioning whether acting out of Love, at the expense (even temporarily) of Truth, is justifiable.

I'm not talking about telling someone: yes, that dress does make you look fat. I'm talking about "bigger" issues of confronting ignorance -- the kind of ignorance that threatens violence, like racism and homophobia.

We seem to be able to embrace Love pretty well, but we get skittish about embracing Truth. Why? Is it because, deep down, we fear that Truth is not on our side?

Eugene Robinson, one of my favorite news "talking heads" and a columnist and associate editor at The Washington Post wrote this (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/09/17/AR2009091703566.html?hpid=opinionsbox1)the other day. He acknowledges that it is difficult for President Obama to address any racism because of his special role at the moment but that this should not let the rest of us off the hook. Racism is out there; it's a factor in our national debate, a dangerous one; it's wrong and it's harmful...and that's the Truth.

Anti-gay forces wield "God's Word", arguing that homosexuality is unnatural, sinful and against God's plan for us. This is their Truth. I have no desire to be impolite, but they're simply wrong. This is a Truth that many of us have come to know that requires no written corroboration. No book ever proved this to me. No book could. I know it. I feel it.

I've been fortunate enough to know and feel Love, too. But this is different; this is Truth.

Fine...hooray for me. So how do I go about communicating this to others? At what point does Truth get watered down enough to be sufficiently palatable to approach our enemies "out of Love"?

I think I understand what your saying... it's a hard topic to try to explain. We can't overlook the truth in the name of love. However, we can't forget about the love portion. We need balance.

I feel you're right though, we are ignoring some very real truths because we are trying to protect others. I do it every day, in my house it's an obvious thing like money... I won't talk about it, because I'm protecting people, but at the same time, that's not really helping anyone. Just as, pretending that racism or homophobia do not exist does not help anyone and does not make the issue go away.

"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." -MLK Jr.

my addition...?
Ignorance cannot drive out ignorance; only truth can do that.

Isn't that what SF does?

[dsdrane]

"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." -MLK Jr.

my addition...?
Ignorance cannot drive out ignorance; only truth can do that.

Isn't that what SF does?

Yes it does. At its best, that's exactly what it does.

Explaining SF to others, I talk about how Mel White went from speech-writer to the Fundies to thorn in their side. I -- and many -- will always be grateful to him for having this epiphany! He had everything to lose. Why, then, did he ultimately do it?

I'm an outsider...what the hell do I know? BUT. I simply cannot imagine anyone taking such a colossal and life-changing leap out of anything but Truth (and Faith that he'd survive it).

[Jennifer5]

Yes it does. At its best, that's exactly what it does.

Explaining SF to others, I talk about how Mel White went from speech-writer to the Fundies to thorn in their side. I -- and many -- will always be grateful to him for having this epiphany! He had everything to lose. Why, then, did he ultimately do it?

I'm an outsider...what the hell do I know? BUT. I simply cannot imagine anyone taking such a colossal and life-changing leap out of anything but Truth (and Faith that he'd survive it).

So, where does this topic go from here?

[dsdrane]

So, where does this topic go from here?

I love you, J5, for humoring and engaging me, but it's obviously a non-starter (with anyone else).

That said, I do think "Truth" is a touchy subject for some here -- especially those who have had "Truth" preached AT them. I didn't have that experience, so I don't know what it's like to have to grapple with that. In fact, I've had the opposite experience: I've preached MY Truth to others, especially my family. As a result, many in my family thought thoughts they had never thought before. They did so out of Love, but they recognized that I was speaking to them out of Truth.

I remember especially telling my mother once -- a woman I love deeply and forever: if you make me choose between you and my boyfriend, you will lose. I didn't say this out of Love; I said it out of Truth.

And...you know what? It worked out ok. Way, way better than ok.

[Jennifer5]

I love you, J5, for humoring and engaging me, but it's obviously a non-starter (with anyone else).

That said, I do think "Truth" is a touchy subject for some here -- especially those who have had "Truth" preached AT them. I didn't have that experience, so I don't know what it's like to have to grapple with that. In fact, I've had the opposite experience: I've preached MY Truth to others, especially my family. As a result, many in my family thought thoughts they had never thought before. They did so out of Love, but they recognized that I was speaking to them out of Truth.

I remember especially telling my mother once -- a woman I love deeply and forever: if you make me choose between you and my boyfriend, you will lose. I didn't say this out of Love; I said it out of Truth.

And...you know what? It worked out ok. Way, way better than ok.
Hun, I don't just humor people, I am sincerely interested. :love:

Truth is a very touchy subject for people. You're lucky if you've never been preached at regarding that. I have a very liberal family, so I have not had to struggle too much with those unfortunate truths at home. Although, there is always some kind of truth about growing up that you aren't going to like.

There's this: "The truth is whatever I tell people it is."

Had he said 'my truth...' that statement would have had a completely different meaning.

When you told your mother that you would choose your bf over her, was that truth over love? I think it was still love more than anything? But perhaps it was a good combination of love and truth?

How do we state the truth, without becoming insensitive? I be sensitive, without overlooking the truth?

Recently there was a conflict, where I was incredibly upset about the entire situation. There were a lot of people involved. The truth in the situation was out in the open. One person, chose to be incredibly blunt and basically said to just get over it. Another person, chose to talk through the entire thing with me, but was still very forward about getting over it. The next person, just talked to me and explained certain things in a reasonable way that I was able to relate to. The last person, listened to me, talked to me, supported me on certain things and told me I was unreasonable regarding others.

The point I'm trying to make is that they all got the same basic point across, and they did it incredibly clearly at that. The first one had me in tears many times though. The last two helped me to feel safe while I was learning about something scary. Truth, is always critical, but there are so many ways to approach it.