Beauty at the North Central University Stop

[DColeman]

Greetings Soulforce Forum-ites,

I just read through a number of comments about North Central for the first time today, and wanted to make a few comments. It was my stop, after all. :)

First, I have to say I am so proud of the way the Equality Riders handled themselves at NCU. I have always seen Equality Riders treat everybody with dignity and respect, and each Rider's beautiful non-violent soul shined through at North Central University. I am so proud of my fellow riders.

I also love North Central University and its mission. I respect the administration, and find them to be good spiritual role models. Though it is the school I was kicked out of unjustly, it is a place dear to my heart. I wish only the best for the student body and the leadership. That said, I found it deeply necessary to confront the deep misunderstanding perpetrated by the very same people I respect.

April 17:
What we did was come at 10:00 in the morning with tables full of water and sodas to hand out to students. Another table had cookies, and yet another had literature. Very few students actually took advantage of our presence out on the sidewalks. The reason we were out on the sidewalks was because the sidewalks are city property, and the school didn't want us on campus. They opposed our message so much that they posted security guards at every doorway to make sure Equality Riders stayed out.

After a short time, we discovered that many students had been conditioned ahead of time to expect the worst from us. People's expectations sometimes color reality a different hue.

While I led a short worship time, a number of other Riders sought out students to speak with, finding a few successful and productive conversations. Unfortunately, the mere presence security guards at every door made students wary about even venturing out. They symbolically made us into something to be feared and avoided.

So, a number of Equality Riders took a controversial stand. They wanted so badly to take a life-and-death message into the school that they knocked on the door to come in and speak with students. When the school refused to let them speak with students, they sat in front of the door symbolically.

No matter what negative spin anyone puts on this situation, I was there and saw what happened. Nobody was violent; not every door was blocked. No fire escapes were blocked. Main entrances were blocked, but people got in and out other ways. Equality Riders voluntarily accepted being dragged and pushed away from the doors; and yet, they stood their ground. They weren't there to make a scene; they were there because they care about the well-being of mistreated LGBT students.

Overall, I've heard a general contentedness about what happened from thoughtful students. Of course, some students saw our sit-in as a confirmation of every negative thing they ever thought about Soulforce. Any stand we would have taken would have been perceived this way by somebody. I have faith many students got it, though. Some students understand MLK Jr's concept of creating a crisis to dramatize an issue that has been ignored.

North Central, because of us, cannot ignore the issue. Of course, that also means that all the negativity focused on us was brought that much more into the open. North Central's negativity toward gay people clearly was deep. Pam was describing a violent hate crime against her, and claims a student laughed at her. I watched other students throwing things from windows. In fact, NCU students were, perhaps, more unreceptive to speaking with us than students from any other school on our journey! (Some were awesome; I don't want to pidgeon-hole everybody into this category.)

Now, in an environment that negatively focused against us, it seems likely that some gay students would have been heartbroken, especially since we represent them! If they were hoping for students to see us and like us, and instead saw us taking a strong stand that invited ridicule, that must have been awful. Here are people standing up in their names, and doing something that increases the ridicule and slander of gay people! It's understandable that they might blame us for that, but in the end, it's not us who are to blame. It's the environment at North Central that we're illuminating with action. It was one where we were perceived with negativity, fear, and contempt.

That I'm sad about, but I hope some come to see the positive side of what happened rather than be swayed by any ridicule directed at us. What we did was not wrong, nor was it overly radical. It was standing up for what's right and illuminated wrong.

Of course, nothing went really wrong that day. If it had, I don't think a couple of administrators would have taken me on a personal tour of the chapel before we left.

Negativity breeds negativity. One person says something bad, and another person says, "You know, they were bad to block doors! Crazy radical gays!" Somebody sheds a bad light on something and it spreads. At North Central, some people expected negative things from us, and perceived negativity where bravery and beauty existed.

Though much negativity has been spoken about the NCU stop in this forum, I have seen the positive side of this. I have talked with closeted students inspired by our presence.

The rally later that night was spectacular. No other stop on the ride had a larger rally, and I was honored. Around 300 people showed up in Elliot Park to support me and the Riders. A Star Trek hero of mine, George Takei (Sulu) was the first speaker. The executive director of GLAAD then stepped in and condemned NCU’s actions. (GLAAD!!!) It was a show of support like I’ve never seen before in my life, and I am deeply touched.

After the rally, gay students found me and told me how they felt. Amazing. We did make an impact.

[keltic63]

David,

Thanks for coming here to tell us another part of the story. We had not heard about the laughter as one rider talked, and also did not hear that some students were throwing things from windows. This could indeed make closeted students even more worried if they are outted.

[suzer1013]

Thanks for sharing this. It's good to hear another side of the story. :)

Susan

[Daniel]

I also love North Central University and its mission. I respect the administration, and find them to be good spiritual role models. Though it is the school I was kicked out of unjustly, it is a place dear to my heart. I wish only the best for the student body and the leadership. That said, I found it deeply necessary to confront the deep misunderstanding perpetrated by the very same people I respect.

David,

Thank you for relating your perceptions and experiences of that day.

What stands out for me is the high regard- you use the word respect- that you have for those who treated you badly at one time. That's one heck of a nut to chew on. You've highlighted, at least for this reader, what non-violence is all about.

Thank you.

Daniel

[Jamie McDaniel]

Now, in an environment that negatively focused against us, it seems likely that some gay students would have been heartbroken, especially since we represent them! If they were hoping for students to see us and like us, and instead saw us taking a strong stand that invited ridicule, that must have been awful. Here are people standing up in their names, and doing something that increases the ridicule and slander of gay people! It's understandable that they might blame us for that, but in the end, it's not us who are to blame. It's the environment at North Central that we're illuminating with action. It was one where we were perceived with negativity, fear, and contempt.
This part of your post really struck me, David, as it seems a good interpretation of events.

[Venari]

I find it very interesting how two groups can view things very different.

I for one put no credence with the words of David Coleman for the claims he has made. Another student responding on the NCU message board abut his claims of being expelled for being gay said this.


Posted: Apr 18, 2006 11:34 PM

You mentioned three students "getting kicked out of NCU for being gay." I'll have to admit, I don't know what may have happened here years ago, but if you're refering to Dave Colman as being one of them, you'd be very wrong.

I also don't know why you'd be fearful of being ostricised in any way for coming out at school. Generally speaking, the gay students tend to be the more popular students at NCU. However, if you started believing that your orientation is somehow a gift from God, and that you're free to act upon any desire that you have, then you might have a problem with the AG...

David has shown consistent dishonesty in the claims he has made about NCU and other students. This is simply more propaganda to make the Equality Riders look like heroes of the day and the media hungry instigators they were.

You want to disagree with me thats fine, but I also was there and saw students reduced to tears for what some of the Equality Riders did and said to them.

-Venari

[NathanATX]

I find it very interesting how two groups can view things very different.

I for one put no credence with the words of David Coleman for the claims he has made. Another student responding on the NCU message board abut his claims of being expelled for being gay said this.


David has shown consistent dishonesty in the claims he has made about NCU and other students. This is simply more propaganda to make the Equality Riders look like heroes of the day and the media hungry instigators they were.

You want to disagree with me thats fine, but I also was there and saw students reduced to tears for what some of the Equality Riders did and said to them.

-Venari

Ok... you just lost any shred of credibility you may have been clinging to.

It's been real.

[Venari]

Ok... you just lost any shred of credibility you may have been clinging to.

It's been real.

Thats fine, I am at the same point were any words contary to the image people have of Soulfroce are met with hostility and any words supporting it are met with praise.

Contact NCU students ans see what they have to say.

[NathanATX]

I no longer see you as someone with a loving intent. My response to you will change accordingly.

[Venari]

I no longer see you as someone with a loving intent. My response to you will change accordingly.

Thats fine, I no longer see a few people here with a "loving" intent. This way were on the same page.

Just a last question, do you feel better tucking your head into your shell?

[Zerbie]

David,

Now THIS is what I was hoping to hear at the time that we were all screaming back and forth trying to guess what happened that day (I'm among those who were unable to download the video that purportedly showed some of it.)

The truth had to be greyer than it was painted, and it sounds like your description is probably what happened, in that you describe a range of actions and reactions from both "sides" on that day.

Venari: This is David's personal account of what he saw happen. It is NOT propaganda.

[NathanATX]

Just a last question, do you feel better tucking your head into your shell?

You are being dishonest, unkind and manipulative. I "feel" better being clear on who you are and what you're up to.

FYI, I'm not talking about being hostile to you. I'm talking about being clear that you are NOT a friend, while I previously thought you were. You are NOT wanting to help, unlike the way you present yourself. You are simply upset and wanting to lash out.

My responses to you will be modified accordingly.

[Venari]

You are being dishonest, unkind and manipulative. I "feel" better being clear on who you are and what you're up to.

FYI, I'm not talking about being hostile to you. I'm talking about being clear that you are NOT a friend, while I previously thought you were. You are NOT wanting to help, unlike the way you present yourself. You are simply upset and wanting to lash out.

My responses to you will be modified accordingly.

Nathan,

I can list all the things I think are wrong with you, but I’ll show you the respect and not air what I think your dirty laundry is. Point is we have very different world views and you and a few others refuse to show respect of anything other then your point of view.

I have been very upset and angry lately from how people here have chosen to talk to me and what they have said. I am not going to result to personal attacks as you have chosen.

Fact remains many NCU students give no credit to David’s story so I posted a comment one made to illustrate that ... after I had been accused of not providing such information in the past.

Your right my last post was intended to get a rise out of people because I am SICK of listening to people from SF getting all high on themselves of what a great thing they have done and not looking back at the condition of the school they have left behind.

Once you and everyone else gets their heads out of your asses and finds a way to better help the GLBT students, beyond a one day visit once a year, I all continue to criticize SF and its methods. Yeah, the AG and NCU talked but NOTHING changed for the better in fact it probably has gotten worse… thanks to Soulforce and the Equality Riders attempt to feel good about themselves.

-Venari

[Daniel]

Winter was descending on the countryside, and the birds were now flying south
for the season. But one little bird delayed for weeks until the frigid winds forced
him to head south as well.

The little bird flew and flew as hard as he could, but after one hour the winter
winds froze his wings and he plunged to the earth, landing in a pasture next to
a pond. The little bird cried out, “Help me! Somebody help me! I’ll freeze to death!”

A cow nearby saw the little bird and thought for a moment, and then walked over to him, and then turning her back to the bird, shit upon him and then walked away. The little bird was horrified and thought to himself, “How cruel! I am dying of cold and that cow only shits on me – what an insult!”

But the heat of the cows manure warmed the little bird’s frozen body, and now
his wings were able to move freely. “Hooray!” chirped the little bird. “Look
everyone, I can move now! I'm alive again!"

A wolf came over, and in a sympathetic tone said to the little bird,
“What a rude animal that cow was to defecate on you like that.” “She certainly was rude!” cried the bird. “Here now,” said the wolf, “let me help you to this lake and wash off that excrement.” And the wolf did indeed help the little bird the favor of leading him to the pond and cleaned him off with gentle care.

The little bird was overwhelmed with gratitude, and said, “Oh Mr. Wolf, thank you
for your kindness!”

“You are most welcome” said the wolf.

The wolf then promptly ate the bird.

THE END.


Moral #1: not everyone who kindly helps you is your friend.

Moral #2: not everyone who shits on you is your enemy.

[themattperry]

Funny Daniel -- I don't get tired of that story. Although I'd have to say -- as was said before -- that SF doesn't shit on anyone, thank God.

But yes -- news flash -- SF is not here to make anyone, including ourselves, feel better, not cry, remain complacent and comfortable.

How rude of us, I know.

And if there's one thing that Venari will never be accused of being, it's comfortable. I'm glad that Venari is around ... and uncomfortable. And frustrated. Given his conflicts, he should be.

[NathanATX]

Thanks for the story, Daniel.

Venari, you are just as much a part of soulforce as I am. I have participated a *little* more than you, as 've been to a total of two events, you have been to one... but neither you nor I are official staff or volunteers. I am not soulforce any more than you are.

You have recently ripped a big hole in your integrity and you currently show little interest in repairing it. It is difficult for me to take you seriously when you don't care about communicating with honesty and integrity.

Quit being dishonest, unkind and manipulative. You can disagree with me without being underhanded.

[Daniel]

Funny Daniel -- I don't get tired of that story. Although I'd have to say -- as was said before -- that SF doesn't shit on anyone, thank God.

I could have added another moral:

3) What you think is shit isn't shit.

Sorry to be rather coarse language wise- no offense mean here- just a modern parable.

[Venari]

Thanks for the story, Daniel.

Venari, you are just as much a part of soulforce as I am. I have participated a *little* more than you, as 've been to a total of two events, you have been to one... but neither you nor I are official staff or volunteers. I am not soulforce any more than you are.

You have recently ripped a big hole in your integrity and you currently show little interest in repairing it. It is difficult for me to take you seriously when you don't care about communicating with honesty and integrity.

Quit being dishonest, unkind and manipulative. You can disagree with me without being underhanded.

No, we have nothing more to talk about on this matter.

I did create a controversy to get attention to a matter that has been bothering me; if you consider the dishonest and manipulative then I guess how we view communication is different. I quickly, well as quickly as I could, clarified what I was trying to get at when it became clear my point was missed.

If you’re referring to being unkind to David Coleman, well I personally don’t care what he thinks or feels.

After today I am going to add "soulforce.org" to my internet filter. I feel that I have nothing more to say to 99% of the people here. If you have something to say to me e-mail me though the sight.

-Venari

[themattperry]

If you’re referring to being unkind to David Coleman, well I personally don’t care what he thinks or feels.

That is unfortunate.

I hope you are not really leaving Venari. This is a safe place for you ... God's peace if indeed this is the last of you.

[Jamie McDaniel]

Venari and I had a conversation today where he was given a choice to either be authentic with this community of people with whom he has developed a relationship over the past two months or take his leave. He chose the latter. I will give him time to reconsider. However if he changes his mind and desires to participate further, he first needs to tell everyone who he is with regard to the Equality Ride and NCU (which we now know). I encourage you all to send him your well wishes and challenge him not to leave.

[Venari]

Venari and I had a conversation today where he was given a choice to either be authentic with this community of people with whom he has developed a relationship over the past two months or take his leave. He chose the latter. I will give him time to reconsider. However if he changes his mind and desires to participate further, he first needs to tell everyone who he is with regard to the Equality Ride and NCU (which we now know). I encourage you all to send him your well wishes and challenge him not to leave.

I refuse to answer a few question.

But one I will answer is I am not, never have been and never will be, the Ex-Boyfriend of David. I am VERY close, I can assume you know what that means, to they guy David claims is his Ex and who claims never dated David.

It seems assumed I am and I just dont want to deal with drama anymore.

I will talk with anyone who e-mails me but I dont visit here anymore.

[themattperry]

I will give him time to reconsider. However if he changes his mind and desires to participate further, he first needs to tell everyone who he is with regard to the Equality Ride and NCU (which we now know).

I have a question about what you mean by this Jamie ... do you mean that you have knowledge about who Venari is, and given that knowledge you think he needs to divulge more about his identity before participating further? Obviously I know that you will not divulge information that is between you and him, which is good. But is there something major here that we are missing (ie -- has he really pulled the wool over our eyes or been otherwise majorly dishonest) or is Venari just being Venari?

That he is a troubled person there can be no doubt ... and that he is loathe to back up much of his invictive with actual fact cannot be denied. But is there something else here that I'm missing?

Sad ....

**SOMEWHAT CLARIFIED NOW ... THANKS -- MATT **

[DColeman]

About follow-up: Yes, it absolutely needs to happen. Of course, it has to be done on a community level more than on a Soulforce level. A GSA? A Church meeting? Yes, those are necessary things we didn't leave behind, and they're the most difficult things to create.

Of course, up until two days before NCU ended the school year, the small Soulforce staff was overloaded and the Equality Riders were working at other schools. Follow-up was honestly on nobody’s mind until now.

So, on some level, I actually appreciate Venari creating a stink about it, though there is a lot of drama I don't feel like commenting on.

Soulforce clearly intends to follow up with the administration for years to come. From what I saw on the NCU "after-the-visit survey," they’ll be contacting specific administrators and holding them accountable. (I lost the survey on the road... Sorry Kara.) Follow-up on an official level probably will never reach the ears of students, though. Neither will most efforts to form grassroots alliances we can't advertise on campus . . .

In fact, given the circumstances, we could form a GSA and students could potentially never hear about it. I tried my hand at it last year by creating glbtncu.com. Nobody uses it anymore, though. It was intended to be a place of support and prayer, but mostly became a place for straight people to express Biblical opinions about us. That's fine, but I really have tried at this and it hasn't stuck yet. Recently, I asked some gay NCU students if they'd heard of glbtncu.com and they hadn't. (I got kicked out of school in part for handing out flyers about it.) It's a tough rock to crack.

I have to mention, though, that the Equality Ride intentionally had a national scope; this is a national civil rights movement-- not focused on lobbying-- not even creating GSAs. It was both focused on all locations and at the same time on none of them. North Central had ONE opportunity to welcome us and create something substantial and lasting, but chose not to. Covering the entire country didn't leave us much time for anything else.

And yet, there was a team of Equality Riders who tried tirelessly to make sure resources existed for students on campuses after we left. We created lists of friendly organizations and handed out business cards listing them as a coalition. Are you aware that one of our coalitions now holds regular meetings on the campus of Oklahoma Baptist University? I'm so glad the community took over where we left off.

Follow-up at NCU WILL happen. The question is: Will students ever know?
... if a tree falls in the forest and nobody is there to hear it . . .

-David

[Mia14]

I'm sad about what happened with Vernari, but I guess what's done is done.


Bravo, DColeman! I really appreciated hearing your firsthand account of this event. The reports were confusing, and I heard different accounts from each source about what happened and what people felt. It truly is funny how differently people can view the same situation.

I met up with the ride at Eastern University (which seemed to be pretty welcoming) and thought the Equality Riders were very friendly and peacable - not at all threatening.


For the record, you Equality Riders will always be something like heroes to me. :)

[DColeman]

Aww! Thanks Mia! <HUG!>

OH, and I loved that story of yours, Daniel.

[Zerbie]

I must really be missing something. Assuming Venari even has a personal relationship with an E Rider, or with someone who once had, why is that relevant to the entire forum? I must really be out of the loop - since when is publicly divulging information of a personal nature required to remain part of an internet forum?

I know we have our differences with Venari, he & I disagree on some crucial aspects of philosophy/ideology. There has been some debating with him that borders on flame wars. But, and I say this respectfully Jamie, it does seem inappropriate to require him to divulge personal, identifying information. If things get really bad, why not just ban him from the board? I don't care whether Venari is seeing David Coleman's ex, or anything to that effect. So I fail to see how it is necessary to bring that up. We can all see that Venari has a particular viewpoint, and that is enough to stand on its own. We understand that and we can handle it.

[dewdrop_world]

Was Venari treated in the spirit of non violence here?

James

[suzer1013]

I've kept up with the threads about the Equality Ride, and sometimes I'm left confused. But I wasn't there, so it's hard for me to comment either way.

What I think I can speak to is regarding "follow up" and the necessity for it, and some of the comments about being self-congratulatory, etc.

I went on a mission trip to Sierra Leone, West Africa in February of 2004. It was not a GLBT awareness trip, of course, but it had some of the aspects of this type of action. We went to be a presence, to raise awareness at home, and help in a community for a certain length of time, and then we had to leave. We were on the ground in Africa for just a week, but it was life-changing to us and, we hope, to many of the people whose lives we changed.

First -- when one embarks on this type of trip, whether it be to Sierra Leone or an Equality Ride, the time period is limited. We all have our lives and obligations. None of us were in the position that we could remain in Sierra Leone to continue our work. I would have LOVED to do that, but my life circumstances are such that I couldn't. I'd bet some of the Equality Riders felt the same way -- they might have liked to stay longer, to make more of a lasting change, but they were limited in what they could do.

The biggest challenge for us was remaining connected after our trip. Our trip was our church's first foray into foreign mission. The trip was partly to find out just what the situation was in Sierra Leone, and we only got a glimpse in our week there. We are a bunch of folks, almost all of whom have full time jobs and families, who continue trying to remain in fellowship with people who live far away from us. We had to decide what avenue our mission should take. It has moved in fits and starts, and we still don't have a clear "plan." We do what we can, we are human, we try to follow Jesus' teachings, sometimes we succeed, sometimes we fail.

Although Soulforce is certainly more organized than our little mission group, I'm sure it faces the same issue of how to follow up, what is the best way to create and maintain connection with the individuals and schools they visited. I'm sure there have been many discussions on the best way to accomplish that.

I have no problem with some self-congratulation for what they did. They did what they thought was right. They followed their consciences and took action, and they should be proud of themselves. I know we were proud of ourselves after our trip. We shared our experiences, pictures and stories. We also were tired. We took some months to recoup, figure out what to do. To expect an Equality Rider to follow up on an action within a couple of weeks is, perhaps, expecting too much. At the same time, I understand the urgency of a student feeling like "what happened -- they were here, and now they're gone, now what do we do?"

As others have said, the follow up action will be vital and important. And it sounds like Soulforce is taking the right steps to accomplish some kind of follow up. I don't know if that will be "enough" for everyone, but again, we are all human, and do the best we can.

I don't speak for Soulforce. I can only draw from my own experience. There were friends in Sierra Leone who I think were angry at us, who felt that our trip could have been much more useful if we had done "this" or "that" or had followed up in a different way. All I know is that we did our best, and we continue to try. The Equality Riders may continue working with Soulforce, or they may move on and work for GLBT rights in other ways. We all have our calling and follow it.

I hope that folks like Venari, who seem to want more support in some way, can find that -- either through Soulforce or through other avenues. Whether the Equality Ride was or was not "successful" I think will only be judged many months, or even years from now.

Susan

[Jamie McDaniel]

I will post a detailed report tomorrow concerning why I required Venari to be honest with Soulforce regarding his identity if he wished to further participate. If I end up being wrong on this action, I'll publicly apologize. I feel that my past handling of Venari's criticism has not been unkind.

[Zerbie]

I will post a detailed report tomorrow concerning why I required Venari to be honest with Soulforce regarding his identity if he wished to further participate. If I end up being wrong on this action, I'll publicly apologize. I feel that my past handling of Venari's criticism has not been unkind.


Good! Hafta say I'm on tenterhooks. The divulging of private information seems so out of context. . . I had to speak up, Jamie, as it looks unfair from my perspective. Anyway, no angry feelings from me, just curiosity and a desire to see all treated fairly. I look forward to reading your explanation.

[Venari]

I will post a detailed report tomorrow concerning why I required Venari to be honest with Soulforce regarding his identity if he wished to further participate. If I end up being wrong on this action, I'll publicly apologize. I feel that my past handling of Venari's criticism has not been unkind.

Jamie,

I am done with games. No matter what you think your wrong and there is no way to prove it.

That said,

Accoring to Minneasota State law intentionally doing something taht will bring out a situation of harassment a person, persons or orgiznation can be held liable for such actions.

Needless to say you release any direct personal information about my self or the poerson I am in a realtionship with there will be follow though to the extent MN law will allow us.

I ahve arleady contacted an a attorney who has helped me in the past with Issues with NCU and he will be watching what you post tomorrow.

I am sick of the drama and BS the flys around this message board and if I have to create more then I will ... lets just leave sleeping dogs lie.

-Venari

[Venari]

From : Haven Herrin <havenherrin@gmail.com>
Sent : Thursday, January 19, 2006 8:25 PM
To : "XXX. XXX." <XXX@msn.com>
Subject : Re: response from the Soulforce Equality Ride #2

Dear Sir,

After speaking with David Coleman, we realize that speaking with you
would not be appropriate. We remain open to dialogue in a larger
sense. We also wish you the best of luck in your efforts.

Haven

I have been discussing this current incident with another NCU Student. They made the attempt to contact Jacob/Havenbefore the visit to NCU. After raising concers over the validity of Davids sotry/claims they got this response. When they said they are probably not who Haven thinks they are there was no response.

Isnt it interesting that this situation seems to follow the same pattern. When faced with a challenge they resort to an attack againt the person and not facing the challange.

This is the drama I seek to further avoid. After my recent discussions with people here and seing how Jamie is treating me I have no trust in the good intentions of Soulforce.

Yes I know its 5am, but since its 6am on the East Coast, we're waitinng to see what Jamie decideds to post.

-Venari and BF

[NathanATX]

Is someone missing their sheep's clothing?

[Jamie McDaniel]

Before I begin, Venari, I want to set you at ease by stating I am not going to give out your real name on these forums. I am sure that is what you were concerned about, NCU, the school you love, dismissing you like they did David Coleman.

Venari has posted plenty of criticism of Soulforce. Often vague, sometimes specific, it's clear he is angry (which is fine, anger is not a negative emotion.) Over the past two months, he's quickly climbed our list of posters (http://www.soulforce.org/forums/memberlist.php?&order=DESC&sort=posts&pp=30).

The reason I asked him to be upfront with who he is if he wished to participate further is because Venari is not primarily angry at Richard Lindsay, 33 of the Equality Riders, or even Soulforce. I feel these are secondary to his being angry with David Coleman, his ex-boyfriend.

This is very important in this instance because David Coleman, while a student at NCU, went to school authorities seeking protection from his ex-boyfriend. David did this at the cost of revealing his own sexual orientation to school authorities, which resulted in him getting dismissed. I feel that is telling of David's concern regarding the harassment.

Now I was unaware of Venari's identity until David joined the forums and informed me that he was certain Venari was his ex-boyfriend. I had David read through Venari's past posts and show me why he thought that. It was enough for me to believe David and ask Venari if he was the ex-boyfriend (I'll call him J) who David refers to when discussing NCU.

Venari said he was not, stating he was the current boyfriend of J and that he would have J contact me regarding the offer of books and videos that I had made. That email arrived 3 hours later with J agreeing to work with Soulforce (with some conditions) and apologizing for Venari's being "hot headed at times."

I was aware that Daniel had been private messaging Venari and so I asked Daniel to share with me any information that might link Venari with J. Daniel shared with me the MySpace page that Venari had sent him. I saved the photo from that page (the photo has since been removed by the owner) and showed it to David, who identified him as J, his ex-boyfriend.

With this information, I sent Venari a firm message which included the following:

We may continue to disagree about lots of things on our collective search for truth here, but you will not blatantly violate your personal truth and walk with us.

Now, either you be authentic with this community of people who have developed a relationship with you over the past two months or you take your leave. And if you do choose to leave over telling the truth, it will be sad, because I think there are people here who would like to get to know the real you.

I figured Venari would drop the charade, the curtain would open, and we could all start dealing with reality. Instead, Venari posted a final message maintaining his previous statement to me that he was just the new boyfriend of J and threatening legal action.

Venari, you are among people here who know about living with a veneer. We've all done it to some degree while in the closet. And I know that among gay people, you're one who has been through a great deal with regard to family and church. You're free to continue your strong criticism of Soulforce here. No one is going to reveal you to NCU. Why would we do that?

However truth is required of you, Venari. It is for all of us.

[dewdrop_world]

I really regret that things have come to this.

It reminds me of the line from Priscilla: "... like a couple of fat slags at a pie bake-off."

How much of this is about integrity, and how much is just gossip?

Sorry, Jamie, but I think this is a real low point for this board. I'm disappointed.

James

[Venari]

Once again, not sure what this proves.

I my self is not the person in question, a person I am in a close relationship with is that person. I have saved many corresponence I have had with Daniel for the fact I did not feel I could trust him... and from my sucpsion I did set him up to see if he his intentions were true.

Anger at David is basicall his being hishonest about NCU, read all my posts where I make previous refernce to him. Now I know teh full story I know how deceptive he is... probably could have shown him any pic and he would have said it was his ex.

I stand by my position that I am not who Jamie thinks I am, yes I have gone to GREAT lengths and used a lot of smoke and mirrors (some would say deception) to keep my idenity hidden... also it is shocking what great lenghts a soulforce staff memder would go to to find out the identy of someone who didnt what their ideity known.

What ever the case may be I have saved all correspondence if further legal action is needed.

-Venari

[Venari]

Is someone missing their sheep's clothing?

Saying this driectly, piss off Nathan. Talking about a wolf, look what you do to people on ex-gay message boards. Pot meet the kettle.

[Daniel]

James,

I would pause a bit before I starting throwing "disappointment" in Jamie's direction. Do I come to his defense? Yes. Gladly.

As a hesitant player in the events that have unfolded here, I can only say, without saying too much, that this 'conclusion' to events, if you can call it that, is just. And more than just: generous.

Who has been abused here? I am sure both 'sides' may lay claim to that territory. But in my view, Jamie has acted well and has exhibited a maturity that Venari would do well to emulate. I do not regret giving him the requested information for a second. Why? For the simple reason that my willingness to protect that same information was at odds with the truth. What was I to do? Let a charade continue? For who's good I ask? Nathan is right re sheeps clothing. SF didn't put that on for heavens sake.

I'm sure there will be all kinds of 'taking of side' in the days to come. Self-recriminations being par for the course. Ok. I'll do my own for a sec. What would I do different now that I see what's happened? I would- as I say in another post- Stay on My Own Mat. I've learned my lesson big time. Can't go running off helping those who aren't asking for it and don't want it. But that's my lesson.

Be that as it may: it is my understanding that what has come to be- has come to be- for a reason. What happens now is perhaps much more important.

It was never my intention to tear Venari's face off. He did that himself- all too unwittingly. Libido is as libido does.

Daniel

[Zerbie]

This thread has made me very sad.

I see rightness on both "sides" of the matter, but still say that whether or not Venari is David's ex-boyfriend is both irrelevant and uninteresting. We could all see clearly from his posting patterns that he had an axe to grind with the Ride, and we could have continued to take his commentary with a grain of salt when appropriate, without knowing any of the alleged relationship history. However Venari's message was cloaked, it was feedback about the Equality Ride, and we have to accept that there are going to be people pissed off at the Ride no matter what we do - but we also should look at the feedback and judge whether or not there might have been something to learn from it. Then say simply, 'thanks for the feedback, we are considering it.'

I understand that we have been upset with Venari, but I find this to be an ineffective way of dealing with it. It is like trying to put out a fire by throwing more logs on it. It is a petty situation that is now escalating and escalating. People are feeling hurt, I'd wager not just Venari.

This thread demonstrates how much people can hurt one another with words. With so many Christians, meditators, religious people on board, why has this thread happened? I am very sad.

[NathanATX]

I'm not opposed to Venari being here and even causing trouble.

He's hurting and lashing out.

Knowing the truth is important... It will prevent us from getting sucked into the drama he's trying to create. It certainly helps me be more compassionate with him. And by being compassionate, I do not mean that I am going to "take it easy" on him. I have high expectations for his behavior and will hold him accountable when he's not being as great as he can be.

I deal with young adults on a daily basis and occasionally something like this happens and a situation seems to blow up out of control. The first couple of times it happened, the individuals involved had significant emotional and even mental health issues. One had severe borderline personality disorder.

In those situations and in this one, it is important to get clear as fast as possible who you are dealing with and what the source of their behavior is.

Venari's lack of honesty and manipulative games created a lot of stress and strife here because we believed him when he declared his intentions.

Now having some insight into what he may be going through, we can react less to the drama, and speak to the cause.

He needs affirmation, support, and encouragement. He also needs people who won't let him get away with being dishonest and manipulative. Because he really is a wonderful guy... he just needs us to help him realize it.

[themattperry]

In those situations and in this one, it is important to get clear as fast as possible who you are dealing with and what the source of their behavior is.

Venari's lack of honesty and manipulative games created a lot of stress and strife here because we believed him when he declared his intentions.

Now having some insight into what he may be going through, we can react less to the drama, and speak to the cause.

He needs affirmation, support, and encouragement. He also needs people who won't let him get away with being dishonest and manipulative. Because he really is a wonderful guy... he just needs us to help him realize it.


I can see your point somewhat Nathan.

However, it's my opinion that here on the internet, one's identity is always and forever an abstraction of who one really is ... a construction if you will. I never fully "trust" someone's identity on the internet ... so if Venari wasn't truthful about who he was for whatever reason? I guess that for me it doesn't really matter so much.

What does matter is what Venari had to say -- I debated him very vigorously a number of times, and I always reacted to what he said. What Venari said was often inflamitory, often unsubstantiated and often heresay. I just responded to this, and attempted to show what he said for what it was while simultaneously inviting him into the community here.

On the internet, all we have is our discourse -- what we actually write. As long as what we write does not violate the terms of whatever community we are in, then I don't see the problem I guess.

My mind and heart are divided about what has happened. On the one hand I think Jamie has been exceptionally patient and fair with Venari up to this point -- I've written him as recently as a couple of days ago and said so. On the other hand, I'm not very happy that he is being sent off for not being truthful about his identity. I would ask the admins of this board if that is really a requirement for participation here? My mind is divided ... I'm absolutely convinced that Venari has ulterior motives in posting here .. that much is clear. No one can really be that mad at SF, and there is clearly a lot of anger flying around that has some other root. On the other hand, so what ... can't we just let his vitriol betray itself, refuting it when necessary, ignoring it when appropriate, and also accepting the occasional sincere post that he offers?

I'm still thinking about this stuff, but that's where I am so far.


PS -- Venari, as someone who deals with internet privacy issues and related legal issues on a daily basis, I would really question whether or not you have any legal recourse for any "damages" you may percieve. You engage in this community voluntarily, and when you do that -- in whatever state you reside -- you make your identity known and available to the organizers of the relevant community. Given that no one has revealed your identity anyway, and given also that you have aparently revealed your idenity (or identities) voluntarily to some community members .. threatening legal action is just silly.

But I guess this is America -- anyone can sue anyone for any reason, right?

[NathanATX]

The only thing I would add, Matt, is that while this is an online forum, many of us do actually know each other in real life. I know schoolboi and I met all the Equality Riders... and have hopes of meeting many of you. Keltic met Daniel..., etc.

There is a lot of mutual respect and care here because of the many "real" relationships we have.

That kind of credibility is what Venari is trying to dishonestly create for himself and then to use it maliciously...

He should certainly be welcome here... even to cause drama, but he shouldn't expect to avoid being confronted for his dishonest representations.

[themattperry]

The only thing I would add, Matt, is that while this is an online forum, many of us do actually know each other in real life. I know schoolboi and I met all the Equality Riders... and have hopes of meeting many of you. Keltic met Daniel..., etc.

There is a lot of mutual respect and care here because of the many "real" relationships we have.

That kind of credibility is what Venari is trying to dishonestly create for himself and then to use it maliciously...

He should certainly be welcome here... even to cause drama, but he shouldn't expect to avoid being confronted for his dishonest representations.

i totally agree with everything you've said. I hope I get to meet many of you as well ...

Confronting Venari is one thing ... banning him is another.

I also don't know the whole story I guess ... but these are my thoughts.

Peace to all!

[Jamie McDaniel]

Confronting Venari is one thing ... banning him is another.
If there was a question regarding Venari's membership here, as of now he still has full posting privileges. However as the administrator of Soulforce's forums, I am not willing to allow him to continue to lash out at the organization without a certain degree of honesty on his part. I realize that for several of you, the forums are your primary involvement with Soulforce. Yet Soulforce is a larger civil rights movement with several years of history, many relationships, and a long path of future activism for GLBT equality. If there is going to be daily criticism on the part of Venari posted directly on our site, then there is not going to be this deceit. Venari is the ex-boyfriend who a Soulforce Equality Rider reported being harassed by. Healing requires things to be brought into the light, not remain in the shadows.

I am sorry if this action on my part as the administrator alienates any of you. However, I have decided that this deceit goes no further.

[NathanATX]

We do love you, Venari, and want God's best in your life.

:) :love: :)

[themattperry]

If there was a question regarding Venari's membership here, as of now he still has full posting privileges. However as the administrator of Soulforce's forums, I am not willing to allow him to continue to lash out at the organization without a certain degree of honesty on his part. I realize that for several of you, the forums are your primary involvement with Soulforce. Yet Soulforce is a larger civil rights movement with several years of history, many relationships, and a long path of future activism for GLBT equality. If there is going to be daily criticism on the part of Venari posted directly on our site, then there is not going to be this deceit. Venari is the ex-boyfriend who a Soulforce Equality Rider reported being harassed by. Healing requires things to be brought into the light, not remain in the shadows.

I am sorry if this action on my part as the administrator alienates any of you. However, I have decided that this deceit goes no further.


Thanks Jamie,

I don't feel alientated, and it is good to know that he can still post. Dealing with harassment is tough, and there is alot of gray area. I can see that you are up against a difficult challenge and I wish you luck.

Mostly I wish peace to Venari, who I'm sure could use some in his life.

[DColeman]

"Where are they? Has no one condemned you?" (John 8:10b)

Venari, our past doesn't have to exclude you from this group. People seem to like you here, and apparently nobody gives a crap about any relationship we had or not.

There is a constructive element to the things you bring up, and for the most part, I agree with that and hope for the same good things you're passionate about.

Though I'm VERY uncomfortable and I know you are too, I'm perfectly okay with you being here. I'm not okay with upset comments about Soulforce, or other Equality Riders if you're primarily upset with me. That, I can understand.

On the Equality Ride, part of what I talked about was why I got kicked out of North Central. I framed part of that story as involving an ex-boyfriend who the school met with me about, and how coming forward got me kicked out in the end. (If I were you, I'd be uncomfortable with that!)

I hope you noticed how hard I avoided specific details when speaking to media. And believe me, reporters are NOSY. I had to tell reporters over a dozen times "I prefer not to answer that," when it would have been much easier to say something more specific about our situation.

Also, I tried even harder to make sure that I spoke of my own feelings in response to our situation rather than make accusations. I would say, "I felt afraid from him," rather than, "He did this and this and this." That way, it put it on myself and avoided specific details. I’m intentionally careful with my words, but admittedly, others got my careful words screwed up at times.

This thread went way beyond anything I ever wanted it to become, and now our drama is out in the open like dirty laundry.

And the best part is that whatever happened between us, nobody really gives a crap here. (Even Jamie, who simply wants openness!) They like you and want to keep talking! And I don't think it's on a condescending level, either. It's just not a huge deal to anybody.

In fact, I'm pretty certain it's not a huge deal to anybody at all!

"Then neither do I condemn you." (John 8:11b)

[awediot]

Last time I will drag this back to the top...

I want to apologize for the less than graceful way some of my comments came off. But not the comments themselves...

When a half-assed, partially secretive argument gets hung up for all to see, well, we all saw. What a bizarre mix of business as usual, personal fears, anger and love, betrayal, passionate activism and behind the curtain melodrama. The very nature of this INTERNET, public arena and technological pseudo interconnectedness ought to give some grad student a great study topic. Definitely a strange brew...

SoulForce will learn from this, I have no doubt. Though many gaps remain, and will, I believe, from what I can tell, Jamie acted with the best
intentions, but, aside from others impressions, objectively, so have Venari and DColeman... so what the hell do I know? Its one big reason to be glad I ain't the judge.

I appreciate the work the Riders have done for my lazy butt, and expect it to get a little disjointed now and then. Their hearts are in the right place, and I'm more satisfied now that their heads are as well... 'Follow-up' I can only hope is an ongoing, difficult issue for them. It is more important than the stirring up anyday...

Good luck, good thoughts, best of wishes and God bless your on going efforts. (I'm only 3 hours from C Springs, so may get see them in person:weee: )