existentially uncomfortable

[Zerbie]

Hey, I'm back with another new topic for ya.

Lately, I have been concentrating hard on my spiritual practice, trying to better see who I am and how I relate, and here's a question: What's constructive to do when you aren't happy with what you see? :(

Right now, what I see is all the distance between what I think I am (or want to be) and the way I behave/talk, etc, not coming anyplace close to living up to that.

So, I have re-commenced a meditation practice (for some very significant reasons, I lay it by very often b/c of problems with it), and every time I practice I feel significantly worse. My guess is, I have to face the worse in order to grow, but I have some doubts too that maybe it really is being counter-productive.

Hubby says I'm way hard on myself. But I am not getting a clear picture.:confused:

What's productive to do? Stop meditating? Last time I asked my yoga teacher about this he recommended reducing the time period - so I'm down to only a few minutes, and only in the morning. Whenever I meditate before bed these days, I end up having anxiety attacks.

Also generally speaking, how do you reconcile it if you perceive a gap between how you really believe you are, and how you are interacting with the world?

(Aw crap, re-reading this, it looks muddy as all h***! Does the question even make any sense?)
:confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:

[Daniel]

Right now, what I see is all the distance between what I think I am (or want to be) and the way I behave/talk, etc, not coming anyplace close to living up to that.

So, I have re-commenced a meditation practice (for some very significant reasons, I lay it by very often b/c of problems with it), and every time I practice I feel significantly worse. My guess is, I have to face the worse in order to grow, but I have some doubts too that maybe it really is being counter-productive.


Three Thoughts:

1) Only a qualified meditation teacher can advise you in these matters. However, what does occur to me is this: If all you see is the space between where you are and where you want to be - you can't very well see where your feet are stepping.

2) Somehow, what you relate reminds me of the Old Italian singing teachers (we're both singers) were they thought of the voice as a piece of leather. The point was to stretch it, lengthen and shape it. But this can't be done quickly or it will break.

3) Its been my perception that we often have to go back to go forward. In teaching voice (another thing we share), I see that the student often has a 'dip' or 'tunnel' experience before a new plateau is reached. It's almost as though they have a real good look at what they are leaving behind before they get comfortable with the New.

[Zerbie]

Thanks!

Hopefully this is just another dip in the road.

Interesting about seeing the space. Yeah, maybe need to stop seeing that space.

As for guidance, alas, my yoga teacher is 1500 miles away, and except for 2 brief visits passing through, I haven't worked in his presence for 3 years (plus one week.) We've chatted via email or on the phone, but it's possible to mistake what's going on from a description.

I'll probably try continuing as things are and see if the terrain changes.

[baldness_65]

Zerbie,
I understand completely what you mean. You are not where you want to be. ..Not sure how to get there...and pissed off at yourself about the whole thing. Been there...heck, I'm still there. What I do when I feel this way is try to remember that God made me....He loves me exactly the way that I am. I try to take some time to remember this. This is a most of the time way too big a concept for my tiny little brain to process so here is what I do. Now hang on cause this is where things get freaky. First you must understand that I am great with children. I was a teacher for 10 years and now am a full time children's pastor. It is the most natural thing in the world for me to show love to a child. I realized at some point that when I am in the place that you are in, I am operating in "Frieghtened Child Mode". So when this happens my meditation process intails seeing myself for the child that I am and then as an adult talking to that child. I Remind that young frieghtened part of myself how much I am loved, how important I am to God and how that love and acceptance comes with no strings attached. I know that this sounds odd but it is a great thing. Often times we are able to counsel others when we can't accept it for ourselves. But by seeing myself as two parts and letting the grown up part talk to the vulnerable part I am able to both give and receive love at the same time. I am actually being blessed right now by writing this. i hope this doesn't seem to out there and I hope it helps.
L.

[Daniel]

Interesting about seeing the space. Yeah, maybe need to stop seeing that space..

I've been contemplating the similarites between meditation practice and how one learns to sing classically for a while now. I believe they both speak to the matter of- as expressed in singing- keeping your eye on the tone. One hears the 'space' in what one is doing- but the focus must be constantly reinitiated or one mistakes the effect for the cause.

[Dash]

I don't know the nature of your problems with meditation right now, so this may not be pertinent, but...

I used to have regular bouts of what I called "existential anxiety." This had nothing to do with my faith...at least in terms of the normal topics here like sexuality, God's love, self-appreciation, etc... I think it was part of my isolation, and part of my intense contemplation of the nature of my being and Reality. These "storms" of anxiety were almost always preceded by nightmares of tornados by about two weeks, and at their worst, I felt like my life was absolute nothingness...worthless...like I was an insignificant speck lost in the vastness of the cosmos. Long nights writhing in my sheets in the most excruciating pain, and sometimes feeling...sensing...the corners of reality lifting just the tiniest bit, and glimpsing...impossibly...the immensity of all that is behind EVERYTHING. There was no way to comprehend or deal with what I felt. On the cusp of sanity, thinking only how meaningless...meaningless...meaningless it all was.

I haven't experienced these moments in a long while. Their subsiding coincided...as most good things in my life...with leaving my 20s behind me. Among the many good things that have also come into my life are an incredible comfort with myself and security in being on my own, an increasing confidence in my vocational security and a comfort in the insecurity of my vocation. I'm less troubled by the storms of politics and hysteria in the world. I'm much more intimate with the divine, and have something that is, quite frankly beyond faith...a surety that is more like having seen, touched, and walked in the realms that are usually only guessed and hoped at.

I think this is the first time I've tried to articulate this. It is not a solution to your current dillemma, but take heart! Your soul's dark night will have its morning. Good things are happening within you, though the growth may be painful. How exciting! Wondering at all of the beauties you will become! And all of the strength that will come to you. It is an auspicious time in your life. Do not lose heart! :love:

[Zerbie]

Omigoodness the three of you, such wonderful feedback, support, stories! . .:love: :love: :love:

Daniel - In the context above I wasn't able to follow what was meant about effect and cause. But the rest of your note clicked - and cool! Hadn't thought about meditation in terms of balancing space and focus. Nor would I have thought the word "tone," altho I am, incidentally, listening to something. :)

Dash, thank you for your story. :love: Haven't had quite the same experiences, but I relate to your journey cuz I've come lightyears in those same departments since getting out of high school & college. I seem to be in a place now of opening up to growth in more neglected areas, discovering things about myself that are not developed or grown up the way I wish they were, and finally noticing it, becoming able to cultivate new habits that serve better. Growing up, really.

Speaking of growing up - Baldness! Your post isn't "out there" at all!!!! There are far, far stranger things in life and I've lived a lot of 'em! You've no idea. . .:rolleyes: No, nothin' strange about your two parts process. ;) And actually, some of what's coming up in my emotions seems to be a bit of residual insecurity from when I was little. Making your idea completely relevant. I would say I was a frightened child this morning when I made this thread.

So, after a day hanging with my singing teacher & her husband, fixing my squeaky high E natural and talking about all KINDS of things, then literally playing gymnastics with hubby on the living room floor (yep! regular gym stuff, no sly jokes please! :lol: ), the little kid in me is now grinning ear to ear and ready for an ice cream sandwich. :D

Then I come on here and read these wonderful stories, ideas, techniques, and generally awesome stuff and I feel all this way: :love: :D :lol: :p :aparty: :weee:

And what's more, y'all: :good:

Very nice. :cool:

Thanks! :D

[Daniel]

Daniel - In the context above I wasn't able to follow what was meant about effect and cause. But the rest of your note clicked - and cool! Hadn't thought about meditation in terms of balancing space and focus. Nor would I have thought the word "tone," altho I am, incidentally, listening to something.

Let's see if I can be more clear:

When the classical singer listens to his/her voice, it is percieved in two general ways. In the surrounding space and in one's own body/mind. One learns to listen in two places (if not more) at once. With time, one's internal feedback - the sensation of the sound- becomes the crucial element (this is what I meant by not mistaking the cause for the effect).

This is why many teachers talk about how, when the sound is percieved as really beautiful to the audience, it is 'heard' in the singers head as something altogether different. Perhaps even ugly. What they are talking about is the singers perception of the clustering of overtones- the formants- ie what makes the voice ring. Learning to percieve these sounds takes 'focus' - of the aural and mental sort, the same kind which one encounters in meditative practices. Many teach this as having something to do with the area around the eyes and nose.

[Emproph]

I felt like my life was absolute nothingness...worthless...like I was an insignificant speck lost in the vastness of the cosmos. Long nights writhing in my sheets in the most excruciating pain, and sometimes feeling...sensing...the corners of reality lifting just the tiniest bit, and glimpsing...impossibly...the immensity of all that is behind EVERYTHING. There was no way to comprehend or deal with what I felt. On the cusp of sanity, thinking only how meaningless...meaningless...meaningless it all was.Good god man, get a room. :lol: (:tup:)

Well I can’t quite contend with that level of poignancy but I do have a full two and a half cents worth which I’d like to contribute, (if you’d so oblige :))... The point was to stretch it, lengthen and shape it. But this can't be done quickly or it will break. ^That’s the confusing part. Not knowing that the discomforting change is for the better. It’s often so gradual we forget what the goal is. Its been my perception that we often have to go back to go forward. In teaching voice (another thing we share), I see that the student often has a 'dip' or 'tunnel' experience before a new plateau is reached. It's almost as though they have a real good look at what they are leaving behind before they get comfortable with the New. ^That resonates with me. I often have to get angry enough to recognize what is really important. But the leading up the angry part is usually seen as a meaningless downward spiral, as opposed to 'just' a dark tunnel leading to an epiphany. Therein lies the challenge, especially when in regard to faith.Zerbie, I understand completely what you mean. You are not where you want to be. ..Not sure how to get there...and pissed off at yourself about the whole thing. Been there...heck, I'm still there. ^mee too! (Almost Famous)

Zerbmeister,
There’s a line in a Christian song that goes “Who we really are is who we wanna be.” When I take that to heart it’s profound. :agree:

Like the throngs of fans at a rock concert, who all want to be the star, cuz that who they really are. Of course you can apply that to your ambition of choice. I use that example because apparently in God’s eyes, I’m a rock star. :D

I find too that most “bad” days are the result of unresolved issues and that anxiety attacks are the result of long term suppression of them. I think for people like us who are intelligent and courageous enough to look at ourselves, when things like this really bother us it’s usually associated with past patterns of thought that we think we’ve since overcome. It just means we have to look a little deeper and forgive ourselves a little more.
-Not that I’m good at it mind you, but I am good at explaining it. :lol:

{P.S. I didn't know you guys sang too, what a meaningless coincidence. That makes my rock star analogy all the more relevant. :)}

[Zerbie]

Zerbmeister,
There’s a line in a Christian song that goes “Who we really are is who we wanna be.” When I take that to heart it’s profound. :agree:

Like the throngs of fans at a rock concert, who all want to be the star, cuz that who they really are. Of course you can apply that to your ambition of choice. I use that example because apparently in God’s eyes, I’m a rock star. :D

I find too that most “bad” days are the result of unresolved issues and that anxiety attacks are the result of long term suppression of them. I think for people like us who are intelligent and courageous enough to look at ourselves, when things like this really bother us it’s usually associated with past patterns of thought that we think we’ve since overcome. It just means we have to look a little deeper and forgive ourselves a little more.
-Not that I’m good at it mind you, but I am good at explaining it. :lol:

{P.S. I didn't know you guys sang too, what a meaningless coincidence. That makes my rock star analogy all the more relevant. :)}


Emproph darlin' yes, I think you *are* a rock star. :cool:

Thanks for the 2 cents, I'll put 'em in the piggy bank. ;)

And I'd say the sad moods of the past few days are related to very old stuff - funny, it still rushes up more the more I do esoteric practice. :( Is there NO end to this mud?

Yeah, me & Daniel, we're both singers & we both teach singing. . . I guess it means we're both loudmouths. :p :D

[Daniel]

( Is there NO end to this mud?

Yeah, me & Daniel, we're both singers & we both teach singing. . . I guess it means we're both loudmouths. :p :D

Anyone who's been reading my posts knows that's the truth! :o

On mud. I believe the continental Indian's have observed that the lotus, which appears so beautiful on the surface of a pool of water, has its roots in the mud.

Flower baby. Flower. ;)

[NathanATX]

I'm reading a wonderful book on mediation... "The Wisdom of No Escape : And the Path of Loving Kindness" ...it's by a buddhist nun, Pema Chodron.

You can go here and read the first chapter... it's beautiful...

http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/1570628726/ref=sib_dp_pt/104-3127985-0703952#reader-link

[Zerbie]

Thanks guys,

Have had a few more insights into my particular sitch, which is very particular, since posting this.

What alleviates symptoms is to stop meditating - so I didn't sit this morning for even a moment. Sure 'nuff, been happy, cheerful, even-tempered, calm, and highly functional all day.

I miss meditating. But I can meditate and be a basket case for the rest of 23 hours, or I can skip it and be well.

I'm going to see about getting away from it for a month or longer (about the hundredth time I'm doing this, but, I don't see what else to try.)

[Daniel]

What alleviates symptoms is to stop meditating - so I didn't sit this morning for even a moment. Sure 'nuff, been happy, cheerful, even-tempered, calm, and highly functional all day.



Forget Your Troubles, C'mon Get Happy!

I believe there is more than one way to get to Rome. Perhaps meditation itself isn't the issue, but the matter of the technique you are using? Though, I can agree with you. There are periods where I find myself going without sitting practice.

If there is an obstacle in the road, I don't see why you have to plow through it. Even fields lie fallow in the Winter.

[Dash]

You know, I do have a friend who is working on her Yoga teaching certificate. She has said numerous times that the physical action of yoga can bring all sorts of heavy emotions to the surface. She'll feel fine, but then when she into the yoga, she'll begin to weep and think about things that have been pushed to the back of her consciousness. She looks on it as an opening and cleansing process. Maybe this can also happen with meditation?

[revtj]

Right now, what I see is all the distance between what I think I am (or want to be) and the way I behave/talk, etc, not coming anyplace close to living up to that.

Just a suggestion...A Couse in Miracles speaks a great deal to "seeing" from a spiritual perspective. While I do not agree 100% with ACiM (hell, I don't agree with ANY religion 100%, not even my own! :lol: ) I do reccommend it if you've never worked through it before. It was and is an eye-opening spiritual exercise for me... :love:

[Daniel]

Just a suggestion...A Course in Miracles speaks a great deal to "seeing" from a spiritual perspective. .....It was and is an eye-opening spiritual exercise for me... :love:

Revtj, Yes yes yes yes. I've gained a lot of insight (ha....there's a pun for ya) from A Course in Miracles. I think one the most curious things about it is that it comes right out and says you don't have to believe a word of it, which, in itself, is a very Buddhistic view. 'Practice before thinking' you might say. Perhaps worthy of a new thread?

[Zerbie]

You know, I do have a friend who is working on her Yoga teaching certificate. She has said numerous times that the physical action of yoga can bring all sorts of heavy emotions to the surface. She'll feel fine, but then when she into the yoga, she'll begin to weep and think about things that have been pushed to the back of her consciousness. She looks on it as an opening and cleansing process. Maybe this can also happen with meditation?


Oh god, yes. it's usually recommended to precede meditation with a cleansing pranayama/breath-energy practice. Alternate nostril breathing is stabilizing and calming.

I'm fighting some brain wiring patterns here, it's the only thing I can think of to explain the symptoms I'm getting after meditation - (the during part feels wonderful!).

Interesting to see where this thread went. I'll have to see what Course in Miracles is.

What's bothering me most about the recent developments is the difference in the way I am inside and the way I see "my" words, behavior, even singing, everything really, coming out in the outside. What I observe being said, done, doesn't reflect the way I feel myself being on the inside. Like I don't know how to act in the world according to how I feel myself to be.

Did that make any sense at all? :confused: :confused: :confused:

[Daniel]

What's bothering me most about the recent developments is the difference in the way I am inside and the way I see "my" words, behavior, even singing, everything really, coming out in the outside. What I observe being said, done, doesn't reflect the way I feel myself being on the inside. Like I don't know how to act in the world according to how I feel myself to be.

Zerbie,

Did you mean to write in rather than on? If you meant to write "in" one might say that you are experiencing a phenomina called 'witness consciousness'. The sentence structure implies that there is an 'in' to an 'out'- all is seen from the 'in' perpsective. Makes everything seems a bit funny, like it isn't real- or even dreamlike? If so, you could be walking about in an altered state. oops! is that ok to say here?

I think a classic remedy for this kind of thing is called "grounding'.