Where's Satan?

[Rick336]

Many Christians in the early 21st century believe in Satan and blame him for a multitude of earthly problems. But where's the evidence that this invisible boogyman exists?

In other words, where exactly is Satan?


Rick

[scott snedeker]

Many Christians in the early 21st century believe in Satan and blame him for a multitude of earthly problems. But where's the evidence that this invisible boogyman exists?

In other words, where exactly is Satan?


Rick

He exists as an idea in the minds of those taught to fear. He is as real as a dream or a nightmare or a memory. He is as real as Captain Kirk.. Beyond that there is no other type of existence that can be proven. When belief in him dies, He dies

[tymejumper]

I don't believe in him either. We make our own Hells here on Earth, we don't need an actual place to go.

[antiochian]

that Satan lives in Iowa. Ever since same-sex marriage was legalized there, he's been dancing gleefully through the cornfields. Although he does go south for the winter, as it's colder than hell there at the moment.

(If you are so inclined, check out Stephen Lynch's song "Beelz" on youtube. Very irreverent, but funny! I know for a fact you'd like it, Rick!)

[bnmoore]

where exactly is Satan?
Rick

It came to the party late. Older belief systems had no unified figure for evil. I'm all for letting it go back to the nothingness from which it came. You can research the subject now if you so desire without being put to death for it. Darkness doesn't go anywhere when you turn on the lights. It was never a thing in and of itself to begin with.

[koneill08]

At the risk of being virtual - ly bludgeoned here for my own personal beliefs, I would like to point something out. Just because we don't see it or have empirical evidence of it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. The wind leaves no evidence in and of itself, except in how it affects other pieces of matter (such as trees, fields, etc.) when it becomes damaging. The things of the spirit world act in the same manner (good or evil). You might not be able to see it, but it does influence the "matter" that is around it.

Evil does exist, just look around at the injustice we all receive because of who we are, nevermind the injustice around the rest of the world in poverty, discrimination of all kinds, etc. I know we're not talking about evil in general here, but everything has an origin. Everything has a "root" it comes from. So if we can agree that evil does exist (which does have evidence) can we agree that it has a source or origin? And if we can agree it does have a source or origin, then what is that origin/source? It seems to me that it is the nature of this created world to have two opposing forces at work/tension (as another person posted on a different thread here) with each other in order for free will to work.

So I ask the question, if evil does exist where does it come from if not from "satan?"

[Daniel]

The wind leaves no evidence in and of itself, except in how it affects other pieces of matter (such as trees, fields, etc.) when it becomes damaging. The things of the spirit world act in the same manner (good or evil). You might not be able to see it, but it does influence the "matter" that is around it.

The force of the wind is measurable. And if dust is mixed in with it, it is seen quite easily.

I doubt that we are going to agree that evil exists. However, what common ground might we all stand on? The awareness that IGNORANCE exists, not as a solid, concrete object, but rather, as a condition of the mind- one that is often self-imposed because of the beliefs involved.

Ignorance has led to witch-hunts, and all the supposed evil in the world. That seems pretty clear.

[Rick336]

Just because we don't see it or have empirical evidence of it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Actually, that's exactly what it means. The only way that we know that something exists is if it is supported by empirical evidence. Evidence is how we distinguish between reality and fantasy.

If someone says that leprechauns exists, do we automatically believe them without evidence? Of course not. Even though we've seen graphics of leprechauns on cerial boxes and heard stories of leprechauns living in the forests of Ireland, our common sense tells us that leprechauns are only a childish myth because there is no evidence to support their existence.

The same goes for Satan. When a religious leader teaches that Satan is behind the growing number of openly LGBT people, he makes a claim that lacks empirical evidence to support it. Unless he can produce evidence that (1) Satan exists (2) Satan controls behavior (3) homosexuality is from Satan, then our common sense must dismiss his claims as false. To do otherwise is to be controlled by unreasoned irrational thinking and to live in a world of fantasy.

Rick

[tdogg]

We usually get one to two really heavy wind & rain storms here in No. California per year. Upon the wind dying down, fences are down, trees are uprooted, normally at least a couple cars are totaled, and palm fronds, leaves and tree branches cover the streets. Plus I can feel it on my face. So that is the physical evidence that wind exists. Bad metaphor.

I'm not sure if anyone could come up with an actual metaphor that makes sense. So it would then appear that a belief in "satan" takes the same faith-based approach than a believe in "god", but no comparison to existence of things in our physical world.

[celestial_rain]

Evil does exist, just look around at the injustice we all receive because of who we are, nevermind the injustice around the rest of the world in poverty, discrimination of all kinds, etc. I know we're not talking about evil in general here, but everything has an origin. Everything has a "root" it comes from. So if we can agree that evil does exist (which does have evidence) can we agree that it has a source or origin? And if we can agree it does have a source or origin, then what is that origin/source? It seems to me that it is the nature of this created world to have two opposing forces at work/tension (as another person posted on a different thread here) with each other in order for free will to work.



I'll have to agree with koneill on this one. Perhaps it is because of my faith in God that I believe in Satan, for one cannot truly say they believe in God but not acknowledge that Satan also exists. While I can understand not believing in Satan specifically, I cannot understand the denial of the existance of evil in general. We are surrounded by corruption and ignorance, and these must have a source. Hatred is evil at work, and in my opinion, the work of Satan.

[bnmoore]

In the Upanishads and Yoga Sutras it calls attitudes that prevent us from realizing our true nature ignorance. It calls the perpetuation of ignorance sin. In some of the gospels that were left out of the Christian bible words attributed to Jesus put forth similar ideas. Parts that are still included can be interpreted that way but seem not to be for the most part.

In the belief system of which I am part we call it One Power that's completely impersonal. One coin has two sides. A magnet has two poles. The same fire that warms your hearth can burn down your house. I suppose you could say that we view Omnipotence as neutral and we choose how it's used. It doesn't make or require a devil. It places responsibility on us.

[Spacemanatee]

Funny thing about being Asian and not being raised in the US, we seem to take the supernatural in stride better than most do. I believe in God. I believe in ghosts. I've seen ghosts (never had a drink or drug in my life) and I've dreamt of disasters the nights before they happened (New Orleans, Phuket, China) and when I say it all out loud, I sound like a loon - - because there's no scientific way to prove that I saw what I saw.

And it's not like I was raised in mumbo jumbo or anything, my dad's a highly respected Anesthesiologist and my mom's a celebrated Embryologist. Hell, my at the rate my sister is going in her hospital she can afford a house in the Hamptons in five years and she's only 30. So basically, I'm a spoiled prep who has no reason whatsoever to ponder about spirituality. But I still see ghosts and I still dream weird dreams. So friggin' weird.

Which is why I believe there are otherworldly things out there. Which is why I won't rule anything out. But the question I do ask myself is: God is omnipotent. Satan isn't. Lucifer wouldn't have - - COULDN'T HAVE revolted had He not allowed it. So...whatever I need some sleep.

[Rick336]

To go back to my original question; if Satan exists, where is he?

Rick

[koneill08]

The force of the wind is measurable. And if dust is mixed in with it, it is seen quite easily.

I doubt that we are going to agree that evil exists. However, what common ground might we all stand on? The awareness that IGNORANCE exists, not as a solid, concrete object, but rather, as a condition of the mind- one that is often self-imposed because of the beliefs involved.

Ignorance has led to witch-hunts, and all the supposed evil in the world. That seems pretty clear.

The force of the wind is what is measurable, not the wind itself. Again, measuring or seeing empirical evidence that wind exists can only be done by the affects it has on matter we can see and touch. As for the wind on your face, you only know (measure) it's existence by it's affect on your cheek. Or like the dust example given, the wind there is measured by the physical matter dust, but the wind itself without the dust can't be measured. Again, the spirit world is the same, you can't see it or touch it in and of itself but it can be seen in the affects it has on the material world around it.

Let me ask a slightly different question. Rick, when you say "if satan exists, where is he?" Would you mind defining what you mean by Satan? Do you mean a phyiscal entity like a human, only not human in essence? Do you mean an energy? What do you mean by that, because that can have a very different bearing on this conversation if you're thinking of a human-like form.

[bnmoore]

for one cannot truly say they believe in God but not acknowledge that Satan also exists.

I can and do.

[scott snedeker]

The force of the wind is what is measurable, not the wind itself. the wind itself without the dust can't be measured. Again, the spirit world is the same, you can't see it or touch it in and of itself but it can be seen in the affects it has on the material world around it. .

You can simply hold your breath and prove that air exists. You can see molecules of nitrogen and oxygen with electron microscopy. wind is air molecules in movement



Let me ask a slightly different question. Rick, when you say "if satan exists, where is he?" Would you mind defining what you mean by Satan? Do you mean a phyiscal entity like a human, only not human in essence? Do you mean an energy? What do you mean by that, because that can have a very different bearing on this conversation if you're thinking of a human-like form.


Defining satan and locating him is your challenge to prove by responding to Rick's question. Rick and myself Don't believe Satan exists at all except as a belief in the minds of people but no other metaphysical fashion.



So to make the question more direct:

Beyond the idea and belief within your own mind, In what fashion and where does Satan exist?

If you are unable to answer, then Rick has made his point. Satan does not exist beyond the some 1 billion odd people's ideas within their own minds.


The concept is several thousand years old and cannot be viewed as anything but metaphysically ridiculous when examined with modern thinking.

Any answer you provide will invite fascile disproof because of the above.

This exercise is an awareness raising to help let go of the Fear based on Unnecessary Chimerical metaphysical assumptions

[antiochian]

I don't what people believe in, as long as they harm none and aren't trying to push their beliefs on others. As long as people aren't telling me who I can love and marry, and how to live my life, I don't care if they believe in Satan, or whether they pray to Pamela Anderson. For all of its faults, America gives us the freedom of religion, which includes the freedom to have no religion, and for that I'm grateful.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I must go and ritually bathe and dress my statue of Kurt Cobain.

[Unmasked]

Satan is in Heaven because he works for God. Read Job, they seem pretty chummy there don't they? Satan might screw with people, but the only reason he does (if he does indeed exist) is to test people so that they have opportunities to grow.

That and it's really fun to mess with people. I'm convinced that any and all G/gods that might exist have really prickish senses of humor.

But since I believe that I am God, it's absolute that God is kind of a dick. And yet somehow absolutely fabulous.

(I'm not conceited at all ^_^. Some day I'm really going to have to organize my theology into a coherent form. It just sounds really bad when I say that I'm God. Pantheism is probably the closest you'll get to a good description of what I believe. But it changes frequently. I believe everything, and nothing at the same time. Fortunately my only lasting belief is that actions and ethics matter more than personal superstitions.)

[tymejumper]

I can and do.

I also agree with you, just because there is a God, does not mean there is a Satan. In my opinion, it is a matter to frighten children and stuff of bedtime tales. I do however agree that there is evil in the world, but not every so called bad act is evil to me. Evil to me is that which robs innocence.

[bnmoore]

I also agree with you, just because there is a God, does not mean there is a Satan. In my opinion, it is a matter to frighten children and stuff of bedtime tales. I do however agree that there is evil in the world, but not every so called bad act is evil to me. Evil to me is that which robs innocence.

And to me that is the difference between being child-like and childish. I would say take the phrase "Become as little children..." and run with it. I can practice within my own being to be of purer eyes than to behold evil. I'm not saying that evil doesn't exist, just the need for it. Sometimes it's not easy to see the divine in the human or the human in the divine. It doesn't make it absent to me.

Googling Mindfulness Practices returns 4,240,000 hits.

[NathanATX]

Actually, that's exactly what it means. The only way that we know that something exists is if it is supported by empirical evidence. Evidence is how we distinguish between reality and fantasy.

If someone says that leprechauns exists, do we automatically believe them without evidence? Of course not. Even though we've seen graphics of leprechauns on cerial boxes and heard stories of leprechauns living in the forests of Ireland, our common sense tells us that leprechauns are only a childish myth because there is no evidence to support their existence.

The same goes for Satan. When a religious leader teaches that Satan is behind the growing number of openly LGBT people, he makes a claim that lacks empirical evidence to support it. Unless he can produce evidence that (1) Satan exists (2) Satan controls behavior (3) homosexuality is from Satan, then our common sense must dismiss his claims as false. To do otherwise is to be controlled by unreasoned irrational thinking and to live in a world of fantasy.

Rick

Great points... the only problem here is the question of faith.

Our tests for reality are rather interesting aren't they? :)

IMHO, "satan" is the personification of "evil," a way to explain/teach/etc. about things/thoughts/actions that are so bad/wrong they must be "evil." If we can't inspire and motivate the best in people through our examples and teachings, lets scare the bejeezus out of them and hope they do what we think is "right."

[RedneckDyke]

I don't think Satan is a character with a pitchfork and horns like the Dookie blue devil. I think it's more "dark side of the force". There is a good and an evil. I think evil has to do with selfishness and greed and pride and lust for money, power, attention. Voldemort he was always a little twisted, but he could have pulled it out and been a force for good. He desired the fame and the followers that having a lot of charisma and magical talent gave him. Even Dumbledore was tempted with the power that magic folk had over Muggles. It talks about it in Deathly Hallows.

[koneill08]

Defining satan and locating him is your challenge to prove by responding to Rick's question. Rick and myself Don't believe Satan exists at all except as a belief in the minds of people but no other metaphysical fashion.

If you are unable to answer, then Rick has made his point. Satan does not exist beyond the some 1 billion odd people's ideas within their own minds.


Scott, not to start a large debate, but doesn't rick336 have as much burden of proof to show that satan doesn't exist as much as I (and other's who do believe) have to prove that he does? Is it possible to find the common ground that just like people may have different names for God, can we not have different labels or names for evil? You might not believe that it shows up in metaphysical form, but I on the other hand do. Not to use maybe a bad analogy, but if you've seen the new movie Precious with Mo'nique in it and the horrendous evil that girl had to live with, I believe evil does show up in metaphysical form. Just as it showed up in that poor girl's father and mother. It might be a moot point. But can we agree that evil is in the world? Evil in the sense that we treat other's and their opinions like crap? We (people in general) are bigots, we are discrimating against people who don't hold opinions just like us, we view others in the class system and we treat them accordingly. Can we at least agree on that even if I call the source of it satan and you don't?

And as far as 1 billion ODD? people? Are you saying that anyone who believes differently about this topic is "odd?" Don't we all get enough of being labeled? Sorry, but that offended me slightly. Just because I believe in a satan like entity who encompasses all evil, just as God for me encompasses all love and good, doesn't mean I'm odd. It just means I hold a different opinion than some others and it is no less valid.

[BrianB]

that Satan lives in Iowa. Ever since same-sex marriage was legalized there, he's been dancing gleefully through the cornfields. Although he does go south for the winter, as it's colder than hell there at the moment.

(If you are so inclined, check out Stephen Lynch's song "Beelz" on youtube. Very irreverent, but funny! I know for a fact you'd like it, Rick!)

Proof of a cold day in...
http://poplicks.com/images/cold-day-in-hell.jpg

[Rick336]

Scott, not to start a large debate, but doesn't rick336 have as much burden of proof to show that satan doesn't exist as much as I (and other's who do believe) have to prove that he does?

I know you directed this question to Scott but I'd like to contribute here.

The burden of proof is on the ones making the claim.

For example: What if your neighbor made the claim that a fifty pound diamond is buried in his backyard. Unless you can prove that there is no fifty pound diamond buried in his backyard does that mean that the diamond is actually there?

What if I claimed aliens were secretly living among us? Would that mean that aliens are actually living among us until somebody proves that they aren't?

People say Satan exists. Does this mean that unless I can prove that he doesn't exist that he does indeed exist?

The burden of proof is on the one making the claim.

So my question remains. If Satan exists, where is he?


Rick

[bnmoore]

The burden of proof is on the one making the claim.

So my question remains. If Satan exists, where is he?


Rick

Okay fine. SHE is on weeknights at 8p EDT. The lighting macro for her show is 666. The lighting directors came up with that with no prompting. Studio H has been renamed Studio Hell. She has minions and everything. Better watch your ass.

[Rick336]

Okay fine. SHE is on weeknights at 8p EDT. The lighting macro for her show is 666. The lighting directors came up with that with no prompting. Studio H has been renamed Studio Hell. She has minions and everything. Better watch your ass.

I aint afraid of no minions.


Rick

[scott snedeker]

Scott, not to start a large debate, but doesn't rick336 have as much burden of proof to show that satan doesn't exist as much as I (and other's who do believe) have to prove that he does? Is it possible to find the common ground that just like people may have different names for God, can we not have different labels or names for evil? You might not believe that it shows up in metaphysical form, but I on the other hand do. Not to use maybe a bad analogy, but if you've seen the new movie Precious with Mo'nique in it and the horrendous evil that girl had to live with, I believe evil does show up in metaphysical form. Just as it showed up in that poor girl's father and mother. It might be a moot point. But can we agree that evil is in the world? Evil in the sense that we treat other's and their opinions like crap? We (people in general) are bigots, we are discrimating against people who don't hold opinions just like us, we view others in the class system and we treat them accordingly. Can we at least agree on that even if I call the source of it satan and you don't?

And as far as 1 billion ODD? people? Are you saying that anyone who believes differently about this topic is "odd?" Don't we all get enough of being labeled? Sorry, but that offended me slightly. Just because I believe in a satan like entity who encompasses all evil, just as God for me encompasses all love and good, doesn't mean I'm odd. It just means I hold a different opinion than some others and it is no less valid.

Sorry about the offense received.

"1 billion odd" is an expression meaning "in the ball park" of 1 billion in number (1/6 of the world human population) and not 1 billion folk who are bizarre.

The metaphysical characteristics of Satan would be a good start to answer Rick's question. Again I feel that this is an intellectual exercise.

Rick and I differ on the belief of whether plants have "awareness" I am convinced that they do. by their response to environmental conditions.

I cannot characterize this awareness unless I have the experience of being a plant. So I can't definethe awareness except by appearance and observation from my human perception.

What Rick is demonstrating is the contrast between contemporary thinking and metaphysics of things like (Galaxies and nuclear theory) and ancient thinking and metaphysicis like (Demons, Djini's and angels)

I believe that you would have to abandon or at least suspend contemporary thinking to believe in Satan or a Djini or an Angel

[Daniel]

I believe that you would have to abandon or at least suspend contemporary thinking to believe in Satan or a Djini or an Angel

There is something called the 'suspension of disbelief'. If a story is well-told, be it in a movie or a play, one believes the events unfolding as being 'real', even though, objectively speaking, it is nothing more than play acting.

Whether angels and demons (and God) are objectively real or not, I think one thing is certain: human beings like to hear and tell a good story. And often, we are moved by the universal truth within a story. Why? Because we see something of ourselves in it.

As Shakespeare said: "All the world's a stage".

[Rick336]

For me, to believe in and be fearful of something with no reliable evidence of it's existence outside a few verses in an ancient text is counter productive to a happy life. Not only does the belief serve no purpose but it can create needless fear and anxiety.

Rick

[scott snedeker]

There is something called the 'suspension of disbelief'. If a story is well-told, be it in a movie or a play, one believes the events unfolding as being 'real', even though, objectively speaking, it is nothing more than play acting.

Whether angels and demons (and God) are objectively real or not, I think one thing is certain: human beings like to hear and tell a good story. And often, we are moved by the universal truth within a story. Why? Because we see something of ourselves in it.

As Shakespeare said: "All the world's a stage".


An excellent point. By seeing ourselves in it we are imbuing the perception of our metaphysical world with our own identity.

OR

We become God

If we see ourselves as compassionate, loving and reasonable, our God becomes compassionate, loving and reasonable. We can suspend modern thinking if it serves us with concepts like what my Heart Brother, Adrain told me Years ago:

"Scotty, when you are doing the right thing, the universe conspires to help you."

If we see ourselves as flawed sinful and deserving of punishment and repentance because some church leader taught us this when we were vulnerable to influence, Then our God, our Satan, our universe becomes wrathful evil and suffocating

For me, to believe in and be fearful of something with no reliable evidence of it's existence outside a few verses in an ancient text is counter productive to a happy life. Not only does the belief serve no purpose but it can create needless fear and anxiety.

Rick


...and this echos the lesson in Jack Kornfield's "A Path with Heart"

"If a path has Heart and Brings you awareness, cultivates confidence allows you to see feel and let in the joy and life around you , then it is worthwhile and good.

If it does not, and worse if it cause suffering, ....it is of no use or value and should be abandoned and avoided as this is poison."

[krobbyzw]

To go back to my original question; if Satan exists, where is he?

Rick

Hi Rick, at the risk of giving you a 'happy-clappy, ceiling scratching, Bible thumping' explanation, the answer is in 1 Peter, 5:8, that he is 'walking about.' I know you cannot measure, test, weigh or examine that evidence, except as others have posted that we can all see the effects of his evil in the world today.

Enjoy your weekend!

[kara speltz]

Hi Rick, at the risk of giving you a 'happy-clappy, ceiling scratching, Bible thumping' explanation, the answer is in 1 Peter, 5:8, that he is 'walking about.' I know you cannot measure, test, weigh or examine that evidence, except as others have posted that we can all see the effects of his evil in the world today.

Enjoy your weekend!

Sorry, I don't personally believe in Satan. Within each of us is both good and evil and every day we can choose to do good, understanding that anything negative we do comes back to us ultimately. We create our own heaven and our own hell with our belief systems that so often keep us imprisoned. I am a Christian, but at the same time I recognize the wisdom of other spiritual journeys. One book I've found extremely helpful is the book, "The Four Agreements." It will help you understand your own role in the struggles of life.

Kara

[krobbyzw]

Sorry, I don't personally believe in Satan.

Kara

Hi Kara, thanks for your reply.
You say you are a Christian and do not believe in Satan,
The written foundation of Christianity is the Bible.
The Bible states that Jesus Christ was tempted by Satan after fasting in the wilderness, and that Peter referred to him before Ananias and Sapphira dropped
dead for testing the Holy Spirit.
I wanted to ask you whether you feel Jesus Himself or one of the New Testament writers were mistaken when they referred to the devil?
Or perhaps there is another alternative that I have not considered?