Homosexulity and Change: My Promiscuity

[Legendary]

Homosexuality and Change: My Promiscuity

Currently I am doing research for a presentation that is based on the term 'ex-gay'. I am passionate about any subject that has to do with human sexuality and gender deviancy but this one particular is a putting on a bit of an emotional roller coaster (which I expected since my researching methods are un-biased). The more I read the more questions I have and the more I am left feeling lost and confused. For instance, in the book 'Healing Homosexuality: Case Stories of Reparative Therapy" by Joseph Nicolosi 8 men talk about their journey's of "coming out" of their homosexuality, due to the fact that the homosexual feeling they have are unwanted, an damaging to their lives according to them. I haven't gotten very far yet but from what I have reviewed, I found it very interesting the determination these men put into changing and seeking happiness. One guy even challenged those who say homosexuality cannot change by saying " But who are they to say I shouldn't change." According to the therapist who is also the author of this book says homosexual behavior is an attempt to undo the alienation they feel from their masculinity (in the case of homosexual men). At the end of the stories of the men who say they've changed, they speak of being happy and feeling free. This is where part of my confusion lies leaving me asking questions such as:

How come some men are happy living an 'ex-gay' life when others are not (former ex-gay)?

Why is 'masculinity' almost always confined to 'maleness' when attempting to help a man be free of his homosexual desires?

Does this mean that some people are not meant to be gay? Some therapist would agree that reparative therapy are only for those who want to seek assistance to rid of their unwanted same-sex desires.

Is the ex-gay movement an attempt to confine both men and women to the gender binary without the recognizance or inclusion of those who do not fit?

In order to help a patient change a therapist must know the 'causes of the homosexuality'. What 'caused' you to become homosexual'? I admit I have had a very sexual childhood. I'm now even just getting over my pornographic addiction (I'm 18..since middle school). I used to be a victim of the promiscuity that the stereotypes of homosexual or same sex loving individuals are labeled under by the heterosexual society. Even though I don't think much about my father, I was raised only by by mother but was consistently surrounded by male role models through out my whole life. I can't remember exactly when I began to be attracted to guys but I know it was before I had 'sex' with 2 guys that were 4 and 3 years older then me from the ages of 8-10 (or maybe younger I cant remember). And I have even had experiences with my siblings (girls and guys) in my younger and teen years. Today it seems my mind has put all this history locked away, to the point where all seems ok. But every now and then i think about it and I still don't believe what my life used to be. It frightens me because sometimes I wonder what if the reason I like guys is because of my past. But then I think of how I felt this way even before all this happened. Maybe all the sex at a young age is what caused me to become sexually hyperactive. I don't know. I also remember the many sexual experiences i had throughout high school with guys, as an attempt to find the right one for me. Occasionally today I feel the urges I used to feel as a teen, but it just seems as if everything has slowed way down, and I'm the things that used to bother me don't effect me as much. I think I just grew tired of it. All I know now is that I am only left with so many questions but with very few answers. I'm not hear to be judged just helped. Now that I have come to the realization that I question everything. I feel myself walking away from God. Being afraid or avoiding going to church when I used to be excited. Even gay-friendly churches. My spiritual journey has come to a n abrupt halt.


Legendary

[Gennee]

Legendary, I believe that many of the issues in the study are the same ones you're currently dealing with. It's how you feel about yourself that you will discover who you are.

Constant activity wil only delay the inevitable point of having to face yourself. Ex-gay "therapy" has done much harm to gays and lesbians. One of the best things that happened to me was embracing my transgender identity. I pray that you will do the same.

Gennee

[Daniel]

I'm pretty far ahead of you as far as years go. I am 51. Does this give me some perspective? Yes. It does. Does it make me 'right'? Not by a long shot. Please take what I write as the musings of a man who has simply been down the path of life only a bit longer than you.

Guilt. That's what I read in your post. Guilt. Guilt. Guilt.

Who put that thought in your head?

What is all the guilt about? What you did with whom as a kid?

How about seeing the desire for union with others (the perfect guy) as part and parcel as the journey towards unity with one's Self? Sure. There may be dysfunctional aspects to how you've gone about it, but that doesn't mean that the primary desire to be with those of your own sex is somehow flawed, cheapened, and therefore damned.

My own view is that the Right Wing's promotion of ex-gay therapy is - as you intuit- pretty much about keeping the sexes in their assigned gender roles. And I think this is a very misguided view. There are plenty of straight boys you are effeminate and gay boys who are ultra-masculine.

Ex-gay stuff is about CONTROL. If they can control WHO you LOVE, then they are able to control YOU.

Self-discipline? That is something altogether.

So you are finding that acting on your sexual impulses all the time doesn't lead you to a happy and healthy place? Good for you. Sounds like you are becoming a self-aware man.

That makes you husband material buddy.

[Legendary]

It it is quite a journey that I am on but I am slowly but surely making it. I just really hope to reconnect with God like I want to. A friend told me about a counselor at my school, so I'll be seeing him for the first time next week. Also from my understanding of ex-gays, some people are homosexual(I really don't like the western ideas of categorization but will use it to make it easier to explain my point) for different reasons. Thus the reperative therapy doesnt work for everyone. Everyone comes from all walks of life.

Ex1: a man who is struggling with his same sex desires was rapped as a young boy, and grew up wanting that feeling again, but eventually was terribly unhappy. So he went through reperative therapy and was much better off, even though he still had still attracted to the same sex occasionally he found his true happiness with a woman. (ex-gay)

Ex2: a man who had same-sex attractions all his life has made the choice to go through reperative therapy due to the fact that his faith(and society) is unaccepting of him. He eventually sees that repearative therapy is doing more harm than good for him and learned to be at peace with God and his sexuality. It wasn't for him. (ex-ex-gay)

Both of these men were categorized as homosexual based on what bodies they are sexually attracted too. However on was not a "true" same-sex loving individual. Maybe there should be different names for people like this. This is confusing.

PS: I know that some ex-gay organizations do in fact use "controlling" methods. Some admit that reperative therapy may not work for everyone (anyone).

[Daniel]

Both of these men were categorized as homosexual based on what bodies they are sexually attracted too. However on was not a "true" same-sex loving individual. Maybe there should be different names for people like this. This is confusing.

PS: I know that some ex-gay organizations do in fact use "controlling" methods. Some admit that reperative therapy may not work for everyone (anyone).

Anybody can have sex with anyone. That doesn't make one gay. Rape doesn't make one gay any more than it makes one a Martian. Does it mess with one's head? You better believe it.

Both examples you give could have been helped by modern psychotherapy. The truth is this: God doesn't 'change' our sexuality. The Exodus folks would like to think that one can change one's sexual orientation as if it is a 'mind over matter' matter , but this is simply not true.

Take the 'faith' part out of their stuff and you see it for what it is.

It's not who you have sex with that matters, but rather, who you fall in love with.

Being gay is about LOVE.

[Legendary]

Sexual orientation is a complex things. In honestly everyone has their own definition of what a homosexual is. Some people categorized people as homosexuals based on their sexual attractiveness, sexual behavior or self-identification. If a heterosexual was to be attracted to only a specific member of the same-sex as well as commit sexual acts with them, some would say they are either homosexual or bisexual based on who their attracted to and their sexual behavior.

Before the America was discovered the Native Americans practiced what we would call homosexual behavior, when in fact they saw it as something complete different and not of any category. It was the Europeans who came here that misinterpreted the practices of the Native Americans and categorized them and their ways of life. Then they tried to "fix" them because they felt the "savages" were uncivilized and needed to be taught the proper gender roles of a man and female. Even today these Western categories that we have do not exist in some other cultures. Therefore does sexual orientation truly exist? What's the point of branding people when you could be wrong and falsely accuse some of being a homosexual based on what you perceive a homosexual to be.

Also sexual orientation is fluid and can change on its own. I believe the individuals who have un-wanted sexual attractions go through the therapy and are happy was because they originally was not identified as homosexual. You can't force someone to love themselves as they are if who they are is not truly them. This means that Ex1 who has tried to love himself but was still unhappy with his unwanted desires found happiness living as a heterosexual because that it possibly who he initially was until he was psychologically damaged. While Ex2 began as a homosexual and was psychologically damaged while during the therapy because he was trying to change who he was which is of course unnatural. Since not one person is the same and is unique designed, reperative therapy has different effect for everyone.And not all therapies are faith oriented, even though some do sneak their beliefs in to try to convert a non-religious person. Some therapist and organizations increase the forcefulness for a person to change if they are like example too, which is wrong. However ex-gay organization successors are sometimes like Ex1 but not always (again everyone is different) so they use that against the gay rights movement to show that homosexuality can change. When in fact not everyone is the same. And this all goes back to my question. Does sexual orientation truly exist. Wy can't people just say I'm not homosexual, bisexual,transsexual,asexual,pansexual or whatever I'm just me.

[Daniel]

And this all goes back to my question. Does sexual orientation truly exist. Wy can't people just say I'm not homosexual, bisexual,transsexual,asexual,pansexual or whatever I'm just me.

If you studied science more than ex-gay ministries you would know that - yes- sexual orientation exists and has a biological basis.

Why are you stuck on this ex-gay stuff? What's in it for you? Science has also shown (and this means data not faith) that it is harmful to people.

[bnmoore]

If you studied science more than ex-gay ministries you would know that - yes- sexual orientation exists and has a biological basis.

Why are you stuck on this ex-gay stuff? What's in it for you? Science has also shown (and this means data not faith) that it is harmful to people.

I have a slightly different point of view about this. My feeling is a large proportion of LGBT people have been driven into self-destruction and suicide by their religions. I would say their faith or spirit is what suffers the most damage. If your belief system teaches a "God" that you are not designed to satisfy and you are a person of deep faith, you could lay your death directly at their door. And that is violating Commandment 6. It's slow motion murder. And that is why I say the Spirit of Christ has become a little conspicuous in it's absence from a lot of churches. If a belief system teaches condemnation and not inspiration what good is it? Where is the "Love One Another"?

[Legendary]

I guess what I'm trying to get across is that sexual orientation is a Western term. And as I said before other cultures don't understand it because it doesn't exist to them. I understand that our attraction to others of course has some biological factors however the term 'sexual orientation' is not used by all of the world. Like the term homosexual, bisexual,heterosexual etc.

As for the ex-gay research, I only want to gain understanding of everyone's opinion. I am not trying to be biased. Maybe I should have mentioned earlier that this is what I have come across I've found so far. I still have a stack of books (both for and against ex-gays, and reperative therapy as well as those in between) to go through.Everyone has a voice on this situation, so I'm trying to find my own. I am all for genderqueer expression, and loving who your heart desires. As I've told others before one day i would like to be Legendary. I want to change the world. And in order for me to do that I have to first open up both my heart and mind and here everyone's stories. Because if I limit myself to only one side I'm no better than everyone else.

I am aware what science has shown. But science has many faces. It all depends who's involved. But as I said my research isn't complete. I'm not solely focusing on ex-gay research i am always exploring the idea of human expression (in which ex-gay in nothing but a small portion of).

I came here not only to speak about my ideals but also to get advice on what I can do to help me find peace with myself and God, because I am aware that i am not alone in this. Please understand I mean no harm, I just have a curious soul and seek knowledge wherever I feel I need it.

[Legendary]

I have a slightly different point of view about this. My feeling is a large proportion of LGBT people have been driven into self-destruction and suicide by their religions. I would say their faith or spirit is what suffers the most damage. If your belief system teaches a "God" that you are not designed to satisfy and you are a person of deep faith, you could lay your death directly at their door. And that is violating Commandment 6. It's slow motion murder. And that is why I say the Spirit of Christ has become a little conspicuous in it's absence from a lot of churches. If a belief system teaches condemnation and not inspiration what good is it? Where is the "Love One Another"?

Even the non-religious individuals are suffering. I think that everyone is trying to have their own voice be heard. AND since we live in a dominantly heterosexual culture who believes that male and females hold a certain place in society mostly based on their religious beliefs and moral value, anyone who challenged the social-norms are oppressed. It's also a matter of understanding one another. People judge what they don't understand.

[Daniel]

I guess what I'm trying to get across is that sexual orientation is a Western term. And as I said before other cultures don't understand it because it doesn't exist to them. I understand that our attraction to others of course has some biological factors however the term 'sexual orientation' is not used by all of the world. Like the term homosexual, bisexual,heterosexual etc.

Just because some cultures do not contain the words 'sexual orientation' or 'gay' does not mean the phenomena that we understand these terms to mean does not exist.

The Eskimo's have something like 25 words for snow. Just because most of us don't share this awareness doesn't mean that the difference between the many types of snow don't exist. And just because other cultures have no words for same-sex attraction doesn't mean that gay people don't exist.

A culture's bias does not make for a universal truth.

As for the ex-gay research, I only want to gain understanding of everyone's opinion. I am not trying to be biased. Maybe I should have mentioned earlier that this is what I have come across I've found so far. I still have a stack of books (both for and against ex-gays, and reperative therapy as well as those in between) to go through.Everyone has a voice on this situation, so I'm trying to find my own. I am all for genderqueer expression, and loving who your heart desires. As I've told others before one day i would like to be Legendary. I want to change the world. And in order for me to do that I have to first open up both my heart and mind and here everyone's stories. Because if I limit myself to only one side I'm no better than everyone else.

An opinion is one thing. A fact is another. Best not to mix them up.

Want to change the world? I like what Gandhi said- and he said it best.

Be the change you seek!

I am aware what science has shown. But science has many faces. It all depends who's involved. But as I said my research isn't complete. I'm not solely focusing on ex-gay research i am always exploring the idea of human expression (in which ex-gay in nothing but a small portion of).

Science has many faces?

I don't think so. Science has stacks of facts. Faith and facts are two different things.

Best not to mix the two up.

I came here not only to speak about my ideals but also to get advice on what I can do to help me find peace with myself and God, because I am aware that i am not alone in this. Please understand I mean no harm, I just have a curious soul and seek knowledge wherever I feel I need it.

My take is that we find peace by making peace. Also- by having compassion for ourselves and others. Why? Because we can't give what we don't have.

One of the best ways to become more peaceful is via the practice of meditation.

[Legendary]

Just because some cultures do not contain the words 'sexual orientation' or 'gay' does not mean the phenomena that we understand these terms to mean does not exist.

The Eskimo's have something like 25 words for snow. Just because most of us don't share this awareness doesn't mean that the difference between the many types of snow don't exist. And just because other cultures have no words for same-sex attraction doesn't mean that gay people don't exist.

A culture's bias does not make for a universal truth.



An opinion is one thing. A fact is another. Best not to mix them up.

Want to change the world? I like what Gandhi said- and he said it best.

Be the change you seek!



Science has many faces?

I don't think so. Science has stacks of facts. Faith and facts are two different things.

Best not to mix the two up.



My take is that we find peace by making peace. Also- by having compassion for ourselves and others. Why? Because we can't give what we don't have.

One of the best ways to become more peaceful is via the practice of meditation.


1.) I never said that "gay" people didn't exist.My proposal is that the meaning of the term homosexual varies. Of course that are same-sex loving people out there.

2.)sometimes someone's fact to another person is only an opinion. For instance some scientist believe Creationism to be fact, while Evolutionist believe that to just be their opinion.

3.) According to you, what change is it that I am seeking.

4.) If Science is all facts and not anyone's opinion, then why is the world of science so divided on various subjects.

5.) Yes I do seek to help the world find peace, but I never said now. I am well aware that I must first find peace with myself.

[Daniel]

1.) I never said that "gay" people didn't exist.My proposal is that the meaning of the term homosexual varies. Of course that are same-sex loving people out there.

Of course, you didn't say that gay people don't exist. My contention is that whatever gay people are called (or not called), they exist despite the opinions of others. As such, this isn't a gray area at all.

The word homosexual didn't exist until the 1880's, but men have been loving other men for as long as recorded history. Note- I say loving and not having sex with. Why? Because it's a matter of affectional preference, not just where you put your cock. In other words, it's not the sex that makes one gay, but who you fall in love with. Ego: it's about LOVE!

2.)sometimes someone's fact to another person is only an opinion. For instance some scientist believe Creationism to be fact, while Evolutionist believe that to just be their opinion.

A med that saves your life is based on a stack of facts. It doesn't care if you like it or not. And Creationism is more faith than fact based. Some may not like this, but that's the way the facts stack up.

3.) According to you, what change is it that I am seeking.

Is this a question?

Only you can say what changes you want to make. However, my one observation is that you may have a lot of guilt surrounding sex. And if I've learned anything in life, it is that guilt isn't a very helpful emotion. Remorse, however, is something else. It can lead one to make better choices. Guilt? It's more like a never-ending cycle in which one hurts one's self.

4.) If Science is all facts and not anyone's opinion, then why is the world of science so divided on various subjects.

If one stays with observation and investigation, then what is known as fact becomes reliable over time. If not, science is able to turn on a dime and go with new understanding. People of faith could learn a from this kind of approach in my opinion.

5.) Yes I do seek to help the world find peace, but I never said now. I am well aware that I must first find peace with myself.

Yep. I think the same thing. It all starts at home.

[Legendary]

As I stated before we both can agree that whom you have sex with doesn't make you homosexual, heterosexual or whatever, but there are some out there who would categorize an individual solely based on their sexual behavior.

My point for science is that some would say Creationism is fact, while people like you or Evolutionist would declare it theory and opinion. Another argument would is 'Global Warming'. Some scientist say that this is fact while others believe it not to exist.

And my arguments are all faith-based. In fact very few of them are. I am mainly talking about science vs. science,not faith vs, science.

[bnmoore]

That which is not broken does not require or need repair. The very idea of reparative therapy is insulting to the sane. People of any sexual orientation don't generally react well when insulted. Or at least not immediately.

Breaking science into idealism and materialism still holds up. Both seem to be about the repetition of results. It's reciprocal inspiration.

Religions, Faiths, and Belief Systems are all opinions or theories about the nature of "God". How can "God" be observed from the outside? If what I hear is true there isn't one to observe from.

[Legendary]

That which is not broken does not require or need repair. The very idea of reparative therapy is insulting to the sane. People of any sexual orientation don't generally react well when insulted. Or at least not immediately.

Breaking science into idealism and materialism still holds up. Both seem to be about the repetition of results. It's reciprocal inspiration.

Religions, Faiths, and Belief Systems are all opinions or theories about the nature of "God". How can "God" be observed from the outside? If what I hear is true there isn't one to observe from.

An individual who was sexually molested by the same-sex in his childhood and long for the same experience through other men as he grew older, and eventually doesn't want his desires anymore deserves therapy if he wants it. Something horrific was done to him and and he became psychologically damaged. So I believe he has every right to get counseling. And I'm not saying that this person is homosexual solely because he has sexual desires for men. He could have been originally heterosexual and someone came along and messed up his mind. Thus anyone who has a "rape experience' deserves help. Why should he have to force himself to embrace feelings that were not originally there but was a result of sexual abuse. However the story is different for someone who began as homosexual, undergoing reperative therapy would be unnatural and psychologically damaging for him or her.

[bnmoore]

I would agree that an individual who longs to be molested needs therapy. That individual has problems. Perhaps their victimhood should be addressed first.

[Legendary]

I would agree that an individual who longs to be molested needs therapy. That individual has problems. Perhaps their victimhood should be addressed first.


I never meant to say that he longed to be molested but as of a result of being molested he developed same-sex attraction. I know of a few people like this.

[kara speltz]

I never meant to say that he longed to be molested but as of a result of being molested he developed same-sex attraction. I know of a few people like this.

I personally suspect that this is a myth developed my Nicolossi and his ilk. The vast majority of LGBTs that I know were not molested. It's just part of the legend these anti-gay people promote.

Kara

[Daniel]

I never meant to say that he longed to be molested but as of a result of being molested he developed same-sex attraction. I know of a few people like this.

This is a myth. One does not develop same-sex attraction from being molested.

The vast majority of gay men that I know (and I have met many in my 51 years on earth) will tell you that their same-sex desires are not a result of being molested.

Now. Do screwed up gay priests (thank you religion!) molest gay boys? You bet. Now that will F**k with your mind.

[bnmoore]

I remember a short film about non-abductees that were in a support group because they had never been abducted by aliens.

Maybe I can start a local chapter for non-molestees anonymous.

If you're serious I apologize for your pain. I'll drop out this thread. I'm just laughing too hard right now.

[Legendary]

This is a myth. One does not develop same-sex attraction from being molested.

The vast majority of gay men that I know (and I have met many in my 51 years on earth) will tell you that their same-sex desires are not a result of being molested.

Now. Do screwed up gay priests (thank you religion!) molest gay boys? You bet. Now that will F**k with your mind.

I never said that molestation was the cause of homosexuality. You make it seem as if i was speaking for gay men in general. I said in some cases it is the cause of some people's same-sex attraction. I have friends with stories such as this. Thus i know from experience. sexual attraction and homosexuality can be two different things(depending on the topic). for instance, some prison inmates often refer to same-sex sexual behaviors (without the presence of the opposite sex to fulfill their sexual impulses) but are not indeed homosexual and when they are out of prison and able to have sexual connections with the opposite sex sometimes they abandon their same-sex behaviors due to the fact that they were always heterosexual but needed a temporary substitute to fulfill their desires. (a.k.a other men)

So do you not think it possible for a boy who originally is heterosexual to develop same-sex desires after being molested?

And once again this does not make him homosexual or a gay male, just a heterosexual who experiencing desires that are unusual for him, since he is initially heterosexual. I do believe sexuality has biological factors. But people experience same-sex desires for a variety of reasons.some through tragedy while others through nature. Its just that some -faith based groups in some cases use individuals who have been raped and experience same-sex desires , to defend their theory that this is one reason how homosexuality is caused. When homosexuality as you said earlier Daniel, is much more than sexual attraction. being a homosexual is loving, not solely lusting someone of the same sex, and desiring a romantic and intimate connection as well.

[Legendary]

I remember a short film about non-abductees that were in a support group because they had never been abducted by aliens.

Maybe I can start a local chapter for non-molestees anonymous.

If you're serious I apologize for your pain. I'll drop out this thread. I'm just laughing too hard right now.

I'm not sure I understand your humor.

[Legendary]

I do not believe that I am a same-sex loving individual because of my past. I believe it is how I began.

[Daniel]

So do you not think it possible for a boy who originally is heterosexual to develop same-sex desires after being molested?

I think you use the word attraction is a peculiar way.

No. Based on data from mental health professionals, I do not think it is possible for a heterosexual boy to become gay after being molested.

A note about sex that is worth keeping in mind...

Just because a straight man has discovered that he likes to be anally penetrated (his wife or girl friend can do with her finger or a dildo) because the feelings of pleasure via the prostate, doesn't mean the man is gay. It just means he's discovered more about his body.

Do all gay men like anal sex? No.

Back to your subject.

Using your logic, all the boys who are molested by priests should be exhibiting same-sex attraction. And that is certainly not the case.

I think you are reading too much crap from Narth. Ah... Excuse me. Make that all crap from Narth.

[Legendary]

I think you use the word attraction is a peculiar way.

No. I do not think it is possible for a heterosexual boy to become gay after being molested.

This is not what I asked. I never mentioned the word gay in my question. I said "same-sex desires" or maybe I should have said attraction instead. A heterosexual can have same-sex attractions but still claim a heterosexual idenity.

A note about sex that is worth keeping in mind...

Just because a straight man has discovered that he likes to be anally penetrated (his wife or girl friend can do with her finger or a dildo) because the feelings of pleasure via the prostate, doesn't mean the man is gay. It just means he's discovered more about his body.

Once again. Where did I mention that because a man enjoys anal sex-or being penetrated makes them gay? I gave the example that prison mates engage in anal sex but are still heterosexual. It's the conservative evangelist that would declare them homosexual. I on the other hand beg to differ.

Do all gay men like anal sex? No.

I'm am aware of this. Once again as i mentioned earlier everyone is different. Sexual desires or attraction by itself doesn't define an individual's sexual orientation.

Back to your subject.

Using your logic, all the boys who are molested by priests should be exhibiting same-sex attraction. And that is certainly not the case.

Once again. Everyone is different. But even if they do experience same-sex attraction is doesn't necessarily make them gay.

I think you are reading too much crap from Narth. Ah... Excuse me. Make that all crap from Narth.

You must be readingme information wrong. I dont believe that anywhere in NARTH's research do they declare that being gay is ok. Which I have mentioned before. "being a homosexual is about loving, and desiring a romantic and intimate connection with someone of the same sex. Not solely lusting someone them."


Please sir. Read my information clearly. Alot of the claims you made I never stated.

[Daniel]

Please sir. Read my information clearly. Alot of the claims you made I never stated.

You have asserted that you were molested, and because of that, have same-sex attraction.

Ok. Got that. Now what?

Let's cut to the chase Mr. Legend.

What do you want out of Souforce? What do you want to accomplish here?

Are you a gay guy who wants to be Ok with your feelings? Or are you running from them?

[Legendary]

You have asserted that you were molested, and because of that, have same-sex attraction.

Ok. Got that. Now what?

Let's cut to the chase Mr. Legend.

What do you want out of Souforce? What do you want to accomplish here?



Are you a gay guy who wants to be Ok with your feelings? Or are you running from them?

Whoah...Once again you are mis-quoting me. And I never said what happened to me in my past was the reason why I like guys. Can you please tell me where I said that. I even said " I do not believe that I am a same-sex loving individual because of my past. I believe it is how I began." And in my first post I mentioned that I was doing research on this for a presentation in my Gender and Sexuality class and I just had some questions that I listed (which never got answered). I mentioned my past to get advice on advice on how to find peace with God. I know this place is good for this(because this is not my first visit). So in conclusion, I came here for two very different reasons. Discussion about my research and guidance on helping me find peace with God. Best not to get the two mixed up. :)

PS: If I wasn't clear enough in my first post than I apologize.:love:

[Daniel]

Whoah...Once again you are mis-quoting me. And I never said what happened to me in my past was the reason why I like guys. Can you please tell me where I said that. I even said " I do not believe that I am a same-sex loving individual because of my past. I believe it is how I began." And in my first post I mentioned that I was doing research on this for a presentation in my Gender and Sexuality class and I just had some questions that I listed (which never got answered). I mentioned my past to get advice on advice on how to find peace with God. I know this place is good for this(because this is not my first visit). So in conclusion, I came here for two very different reasons. Discussion about my research and guidance on helping me find peace with God. Best not to get the two mixed up. :)

PS: If I wasn't clear enough in my first post than I apologize.:love:

You've already hear my suggestion re finding peace. But in the interest of being very clear, I will say it again.

Go meditate.

That is where you will find answers. Inside yourself. And no place else.

Re your research: the way you have gone about the discussion of sexuality suggests (to me anyway) that you have some sort of confusion about your feelings. If I am wrong about that, then please say so. That is way I asked directly: are you a gay guy who is having a problem with your same-sex feelings.

You haven't answered that question!

[Legendary]

My research has nothing to do with my feeling even though it may seem so. I just really like discussing sexuality and gender expression from all perspectives. As for me I am not running away from my feelings but am trying to understand them. I have tried meditation but it seems it doesn't always work. I really think the whole idea of mediation is awesome, its really appealing to me. I even considered taking classes for it. I think it'll just take sometime to grow into. If you could give me some advice that can help me out that would be greatly appreciated.

[Daniel]

[CENTER]
How come some men are happy living an 'ex-gay' life when others are not (former ex-gay)?

Happy? Most of these men are thinking about getting it on with guys and are still attracted to men. Even the ex-gay people say this now. Their 'happiness', if you can call if that, is about not acting gay- having gay sex.

Why is 'masculinity' almost always confined to 'maleness' when attempting to help a man be free of his homosexual desires?

Because ex-gay folks are fixated on gender roles. In their world, real men don't do certain things. Their world is about conformity, not freedom to be who you are.

Does this mean that some people are not meant to be gay? Some therapist would agree that reparative therapy are only for those who want to seek assistance to rid of their unwanted same-sex desires.

No. It's doesn't mean that people are not meant to be gay. The ex-gay world is one where those who have same-sex desires are seen as defective straight persons. Reparative therapy is for people who are coerced into it by religious conservatives.

Is the ex-gay movement an attempt to confine both men and women to the gender binary without the recognizance or inclusion of those who do not fit?

Now you are on to something. Yes. I would agree. The ex-gay movement is about CONTROL and making people adhere to strict notions regarding male & female gender roles.

In order to help a patient change a therapist must know the 'causes of the homosexuality'. What 'caused' you to become homosexual'? I admit I have had a very sexual childhood. I'm now even just getting over my pornographic addiction (I'm 18..since middle school). I used to be a victim of the promiscuity that the stereotypes of homosexual or same sex loving individuals are labeled under by the heterosexual society. Even though I don't think much about my father, I was raised only by by mother but was consistently surrounded by male role models through out my whole life. I can't remember exactly when I began to be attracted to guys but I know it was before I had 'sex' with 2 guys that were 4 and 3 years older then me from the ages of 8-10 (or maybe younger I cant remember). And I have even had experiences with my siblings (girls and guys) in my younger and teen years. Today it seems my mind has put all this history locked away, to the point where all seems ok. But every now and then i think about it and I still don't believe what my life used to be. It frightens me because sometimes I wonder what if the reason I like guys is because of my past. But then I think of how I felt this way even before all this happened. Maybe all the sex at a young age is what caused me to become sexually hyperactive. I don't know. I also remember the many sexual experiences i had throughout high school with guys, as an attempt to find the right one for me. Occasionally today I feel the urges I used to feel as a teen, but it just seems as if everything has slowed way down, and I'm the things that used to bother me don't effect me as much. I think I just grew tired of it. All I know now is that I am only left with so many questions but with very few answers. I'm not hear to be judged just helped. Now that I have come to the realization that I question everything. I feel myself walking away from God. Being afraid or avoiding going to church when I used to be excited. Even gay-friendly churches. My spiritual journey has come to a n abrupt halt.

No one caused me to be gay. And I hardly think that your interest in sex as a kid is deserving of a scarlet letter. I was noticing and fooling around with boys at a young age too. This isn't a matter of being straight or gay btw. Kids are interested in sex when the hormones start doing their thing. And boys- in particular- can be involved in same-sex activity, that is, masturbating together etc.

You might go read Kinsey. It's very informative re same-sex activity.

[Daniel]

I have tried meditation but it seems it doesn't always work. I really think the whole idea of mediation is awesome, its really appealing to me. I even considered taking classes for it. I think it'll just take sometime to grow into. If you could give me some advice that can help me out that would be greatly appreciated.

One doesn't 'try' meditation. It's a practice!

Can you learn to play the piano in one sitting? Can you learn to sing like an opera singer in a week? Hell no! It takes practice.

One doesn't 'grow' into it either. One just does it. Over and over and over.

Taking a class is a very good idea.

There are many books about meditation. Just choose one and go from there. The basics are pretty simple, and are cross-cultural. Simply put, it's about watching the breath and becoming aware of the mind and its actions.

Try this..

http://www.how-to-meditate.org/

Or this....

http://www.wikihow.com/Meditate

Or this...

http://www.shambhalasun.com/index.php?option=content&task=view&id=26&Itemid=161

Or this...

http://books.google.com/books?id=Wq0128nYHIQC&printsec=frontcover&dq=how+to+meditate&source=bl&ots=7QOpmKj-E5&sig=VdSbtL-DBKq2sKULYWbQ2LG_90A&hl=en&ei=Kq-uS7uaBIO88gbKlOShCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=9&ved=0CEAQ6AEwCA#v=onepage&q=&f=false

My own practice is very simple. I do this...

http://www.shambhala.org/teachers/pema/tonglen1.php

[Legendary]

Happy? Most of these men are thinking about getting it on with guys and are still attracted to men. Even the ex-gay people say this now. Their 'happiness', if you can call if that, is about not acting gay- having gay sex.



Because ex-gay folks are fixated on gender roles. In their world, real men don't do certain things. Their world is about conformity, not freedom to be who you are.



No. It's doesn't mean that people are not meant to be gay. The ex-gay world is one where those who have same-sex desires are seen as defective straight persons. Reparative therapy is for people who are coerced into it by religious conservatives.



Now you are on to something. Yes. I would agree. The ex-gay movement is about CONTROL and making people adhere to strict notions regarding male & female gender roles.



No one caused me to be gay. And I hardly think that your interest in sex as a kid is deserving of a scarlet letter. I was noticing and fooling around with boys at a young age too. This isn't a matter or being straight or gay btw. Kids are interesting in sex when the hormones start doing their thing. And boys- in particular- can be involved in same-sex activity, that is, masturbating together etc.

You might go read Kinsey. It's very informative re same-sex activity.

Yes Kinsey(as well a others) is primarily were I observed my research from. and that is the point I was giving you about the fluidity of sexuality. As for me point were I said some people are not meant to be gay, I was trying to explain even through gruesome experiences such as rape by the same-sex and person could still turn out to be straight. Therefor the rape only confused them for a certain time but they soon realized that those feelings were not coinciding with their own sexual orientation. Some rape victims realize this on their own while others seek therapy. But in no way at all does it make them homosexual. This research is intense, both sides have strong opinions.

[Legendary]

One doesn't 'try' meditation. It's a practice!

Can you learn to play the piano in one sitting? Can you learn to sing like an opera singer in a week? Hell no! It takes practice.

One doesn't 'grow' into it either. One just does it. Over and over and over.

Taking a class is a very good idea.

There are many books about meditation. Just choose one and go from there. The basics are pretty simple, and are cross-cultural. Simply put, it's about watching the breath and becoming aware of the mind and its actions.

Try this..

http://www.how-to-meditate.org/

Or this....

http://www.wikihow.com/Meditate

Or this...

http://www.shambhalasun.com/index.php?option=content&task=view&id=26&Itemid=161

Or this...

http://books.google.com/books?id=Wq0128nYHIQC&printsec=frontcover&dq=how+to+meditate&source=bl&ots=7QOpmKj-E5&sig=VdSbtL-DBKq2sKULYWbQ2LG_90A&hl=en&ei=Kq-uS7uaBIO88gbKlOShCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=9&ved=0CEAQ6AEwCA#v=onepage&q=&f=false

My own practice is very simple. I do this...

http://www.shambhala.org/teachers/pema/tonglen1.php

This is highly appreciated my friend. I truly thank you. And your right maybe I went into it the wrong way. So I don't try it. I have to practice it. Never thought of that. Wow I think I just had an epiphany.:rolleyes:

[Daniel]

My research has nothing to do with my feeling even though it may seem so.

Hello! Starting a thread with 'promiscuity' in it is pretty personal. Nothing to do with your feelings? Please don't blow smoke up you-know-where.

From this armchair (eyes rolling), you seem to be working out your stuff regarding your first sexual experiences.

Guilt is a really bad trip.

How about some compassion for the kid (yourself) who was trying to find himself?

[Legendary]

Hello! Starting a thread with 'promiscuity' in it is pretty personal. Nothing to do with your feelings? Please don't blow smoke up you-know-where.

From this armchair (eyes rolling), you seem to be working out your stuff regarding your first sexual experiences.

Guilt is a really bad trip.

How about some compassion for the kid (yourself) who was trying to find himself?
Yeah actually I just really didnt know what to name the thread. About time I figured that people may get the wrong idea it was too late.

[Daniel]

Yeah actually I just really didnt know what to name the thread. About time I figured that people may get the wrong idea it was too late.

You don't have to yak to me about your feelings, but I took them seriously.

I think there is a lot going on here. Multi-level. Most gay people I know have gone through a questioning period even after coming out. Like meditation, coming to terms to one's feelings takes time. It's not a one shot deal. Especially so when there is pressure regarding one's feelings. The desire to be accepted is very strong. It can be difficult to assert one's personhood while also maintaining family ties.

This is why ex-gay stuff is such a tangled mess.

[Legendary]

You don't have to yak to me about your feelings, but I took them seriously.

I think there is a lot going on here. Multi-level. Most gay people I know have gone through a questioning period even after coming out. Like meditation, coming to terms to one's feelings takes time. It's not a one shot deal. Especially so when there is pressure regarding one's feelings. The desire to be accepted is very strong. It can be difficult to assert one's personhood while also maintaining family ties.

This is why ex-gay stuff is such a tangled mess.

Yeah your right...the whole sexuality topic in general is tangled. It's crazy. It's so interesting when i try to explain some of my ideas to some of my family,they don't understand. I want to explore beyond the gender binary. Beyond the gender queer. I want to understand in all plus more. But as we both know I have to understand myself first.

[Daniel]

Yeah your right...the whole sexuality topic in general is tangled. It's crazy. It's so interesting when i try to explain some of my ideas to some of my family,they don't understand. I want to explore beyond the gender binary. Beyond the gender queer. I want to understand in all plus more. But as we both know I have to understand myself first.

That is- it can be very hard for our families to understand us. Some never do. And that can be hard.

My own sense is that it takes a lot of inquiry to understand ourselves as well as others. And part of this understanding entails having compassion for ourselves as well as others.

For those who want easy answers...well..that doesn't involve me inquiry- or much compassion.

[Legendary]

I totally agree, life is not as simple as people try to make it. Your born, grow-up, get married, have kids. Well not everyone has that type of life and even if they do, I guarantee it is not that easy. Life has such a greater purpose than what we are exposed too.

[bnmoore]

I was a little surprised that this wasn't in the list:

http://www.surya.org/media_twincities.html

Chapter 1 in the book "The Mind Is Mightier Than The Sword" by Lama Surya Das deals with Natural Meditation. It's a little more in depth than the on-line article. You don't have to do anything. It's about intention and attention. It's present moment awareness.

And if you don't want to consider yourself a budding Buddha-to-be, then don't. I love the East meets West approach.

[Legendary]

Thanks :love: My objective is to learn different meditative techniques from various beliefs system while still maintaining my Christianity. I just want to keep my mind and heart open to new things. Which is it should always be like.

[Daniel]

I was a little surprised that this wasn't in the list:

http://www.surya.org/media_twincities.html

Chapter 1 in the book "The Mind Is Mightier Than The Sword" by Lama Surya Das deals with Natural Meditation. It's a little more in depth than the on-line article. You don't have to do anything. It's about intention and attention. It's present moment awareness.

And if you don't want to consider yourself a budding Buddha-to-be, then don't. I love the East meets West approach.

I have Lama Surya Das' books, but frankly, didn't think of him off the top of my head.

Sorry. Can't think of everyone all the time.

As well- I disagree about 'doing'. Perhaps it is semantics, but intention and attention is very much something that is done. It doesn't happen by itself. Which is why I maintain that meditation, like playing the piano, takes PRACTICE.

Sure. It's natural. But it takes practice.

[bnmoore]

I have Lama Surya Das' books, but frankly, didn't think of him off the top of my head.

Sorry. Can't think of everyone all the time.

As well- I disagree about 'doing'. Perhaps it is semantics, but intention and attention is very much something that is done. It doesn't happen by itself. Which is why I maintain that meditation, like playing the piano, takes PRACTICE.

Sure. It's natural. But it takes practice.

It must be semantics. That's what I thought I said. Do or be intention, attention, and present moment awareness. Isn't being there while getting there practice? I know I was so pre-occupied with sitting posture, breathing, and chanting, that I wasn't meditating at all. I was too concerned with doing it wrong. Would you call that Beginners Mind?

[Daniel]

It must be semantics. That's what I thought I said. Do or be intention, attention, and present moment awareness. Isn't being there while getting there practice? I know I was so pre-occupied with sitting posture, breathing, and chanting, that I wasn't meditating at all. I was too concerned with doing it wrong. Would you call that Beginners Mind?

What I hear you talking about is a State of Mind. Beginner's Mind- yes.

I haven't forgotten a book on Zen that came my way some time ago (cannot remember the title or who wrote it I am sorry to say) where the author noted- with conviction - that the posture was the meditation. And what he taught was a very vertical spine. This can be a very hard concept to grasp. However, once one understands that being 'alert' draws the body into a state of attention (one might say acute listening) where the spine is elongated, it makes perfect sense.

I think attention to posture and breathing isn't wasted time. Eventually, with practice, one starts where one is going, that is, listening to the universe and one's Self.

Pretending that one is actively hearing a very quiet and far away sound gets the body into the best orientation. The breath becomes suspended. And this is a sign that the brain is slowing down- that is- going from Beta to Alpha waves (the objective measurement that a meditative state is happening).

That's been my experience anyway.