Naturally Pornographic?

[vaguy78]

So my friend at school has given me a bunch of different type of gay magazines and I've been doing research just on gay events in general and what I find that tends to make me sick is that most of what I find has some type of underlying message of sex or pornography. Why is that the case?

That really makes me boil.


Just Venting,
dc

[keltic63]

I think that one reason sex and pornography take such a huge place in gay magazines is the shock value. Society has said "what you are is shocking and disgraceful" and the gay community has responded by saying "you think that's shocking, then take a look at this." In other words, the gay community has capitolized on their outsider status. Look at Gay Pride celebrations: Do we see the PFLAG groups, or Reconciling Ministry Network groups in the media coverage of pride events? What about our lgbt community that trots out the stereotypes for the media?
Can it be said that there are a few "media elite" who are deciding that this is what the lgbt community wants? Does it truly represent who we are? I think we are truly a diverse group, but you couldn't tell that by the representative publications to the gay consumers.

[DColeman]

That's a tough one. It seems to me that the Advocate is a pretty good publication as far as being clean goes.

I can't think of a whole lot of others, though.

Yeah, I too would prefer gay publications that didn't have so much skin. I think it simply detracts from the legitimacy of the publication in general.

Even allowing ads like that makes me say, "Who is this directed toward?" Then, I answer to myself, "certainly not me."

Not all gay people are alike, but sadly many of the publications are.

Oh well... All the better for the sex-crazed people out there.

-David

[Rick336]

Keltic,

I think you're right about some gays responding with "if you think that's outrageous, watch this!"

In a pride parade in Minneapolis in 1982 there was a group of gay men walking behind a banner that said, in big red letters, "WE LIKE SUCKING AND FUCKING". That's all it said.

In a video of a gay pride parade from the 90s was a man completely nude except for a huge foam rubber penis he had strapped around his waist and crotch. As he walked down the street the penis bounced up and down in front of him. Behind him was a group of people, some carrying signs that read "FUCK". Nothing else. Just "FUCK".

In that same parade was a huge banner that read, "Stop Homophobia."

Rick

[vaguy78]

Yeah, it is just frustrating for those of us who prefer to enjoy learning about the glbt community without the extras. I guess i'll just have to live with it. (for now atleast)

[awediot]

I agree. I want to be able to share my Advocate with my mom without censoring the sleaze factor first. Or be proud of more than that one third of the parade.

Whether or not we like it, Gay=Sex. We are attracted to either the qualities of masculine or feminine, and have deep, equivalent feelings and emotions of love and all that entails far beyond the crassness of mingled flesh. But boiled down, and where the rubber meets the road, we demonstrate, or prove our gayness, between the sheets. Straights can pass for straights up to that point, then theirs no going back.
It is not surprising that because we are rejected for this final dirty deed, once we find acceptance in it, the need to grow from there is far less pressing. Thus the "I'm a gay Realtor", "I'm a gay teacher", "I'm a gay whatever", instead of, "I'm a whatever", who happens to be gay should it come up.

I started the 'Where You At' thread as a partial response to where this topic may lead. Incorporating your homosexuality (the last stage) into being just a part of your identity is a difficult step, especially for gay activists, when so much of the focus MUST stay locked there, in order to remain driving and passionate... Healthy? Necessary? Helpful? ...tough call.

[Daniel]

On some level the matter seems to be one of pure economics: sex sells. Remember the magazine HERO? I was a subscriber. Did it last? No. Did it have lots of naked boys in it selling God Knows What? No. Truth to tell, was it a great magazine? Probably not in the big scheme of things, but they did try, those guys. They tried hard to mine the whole gay-men-as-a-lifelong-couple thing. It seemed a radical thing at the time. But then, love between two guys that mingles the head, heart and groin together is.

PS. For intellectual and philosophical-spiritual reading, I seek out the Gay and Lesbian Review as well as White Crane Journal.

[Eugene]

That's a tough one. It seems to me that the Advocate is a pretty good publication as far as being clean goes.

I haven't thought so. The current issue has a prominent article on "polyamorous gay relationships", which is sure to do wonders for mainstream support of gay marriage.

[Rick336]

It seems to me that the Advocate is a pretty good publication as far as being clean goes.

I haven't thought so. The current issue has a prominent article on "polyamorous gay relationships", which is sure to do wonders for mainstream support of gay marriage.

I've been reading the Advocate since 1974 and it has definitely cleaned itself up over the past 32 years. Back then the Advocate was a gay newspaper tabloid with ads for poppers, bathhouses, bars, gay porn, and a pink section for personal sex ads. A June 1979 Advocate has articles about disco, police bar raids, the Harvey Milk murder verdict, and plans for the first March on Washington.

In 2006 the Advocate is a slick, professional looking gay magazine with full page color ads for Volvo, Wells Fargo, Bridgestone, American Express, Lexus, and Mercedes-Benz and has interviews with people like Jimmy Carter, Heath Ledger, and Jennifer Beals.

Rick

[the king]

well this the truth pornographic has grown much bigger compared as befors
this website address will be useful for ur research
http://www.iwishisaidno.com/forum/1655-porn-addiction.html
good luck

[NathanATX]

Isn't interesting how sex-negative we are... even after all we've been through?

Personally, I read the thread title "Naturally Pornographic" and immediately thought of my boyfriend stretched out on the bed last night... falling asleep in the soft light... with the sheets almost slipping off his...

Does he KNOW what he does to me? :)

[Daniel]

Isn't interesting how sex-negative we are... even after all we've been through?

My mother had my father confront me about being gay after finding a copy of a skin magazine in my bedroom. Was I ready to tell them? No. I was still trying to get used to the idea and was in the midst of exploring my first real relationship. In my family sex, like money, was never discussed. My Dad did have the 'talk' with me when I was about 14 which freaked me out because it was totally out of context: my parents instances of affection towards each other was abberant behavior as far as I could tell. Buying that mag was one of my first big steps towards growing up- an act of love. Another big one was when Mr. Husband and I climbed down the hill to Black's Beach in San Diego, tore off all our clothes, jumped in the water and splashed around like kids.

[NathanATX]

:) Great story, Daniel.

I think a lot of sex in the media, especially our media, is simply reflective of how sex-negative we are and the rest of our culture is.

Why does sex sell? Because it's controversial, subversive, counter-culture, etc. Also, because humans (mostly men) are very sex-motivated.

But associating sex with clothes, jewelry, cars, luxury, etc... it just devalues sex.

So... I think sex should be used less in advertising. Absolutley. Not because sex is bad, but cheapening it to sell a product is.

Do I think we need to be concerned with sanitizing our media, conversations, etc., for the sake of uncomfortable straight people? No. They might use examples of the woman walking in the pride parade wearing nothing but saran wrap and a dildo to try and create prejudice against us... but as long as we continue distancing ourselves from her and thus shaming her, we, OURSELVES, give weight to the prejudicial arguements.

I'm gay. I have sex with a man. No matter how yuppie I look and act, there will always be "that" thought in the back of some people's mind... reducing me to the act of sex.

And... as Christians, we are to love unconditionally. We are to live our lives with compassion. Our shaming and condemning the more "risque" or vulgar among us does not resemble Christ.

The other thing to consider is that by taking on the shame and sex-negativity that the extreme right is heaping on us, we are not holding them responsible for their part in creating much of the "mess" in the glbt community.

How many people were disowned by their families and churches and are now struggling with depression, lonliness, suicidal thoughts, risky and/or addictive sex, drug and/or alcohol abuse?

So, yeah... seeing the woman in saran wrap and a dildo might make you angry... but consider where she's been. Remember God's heart for her. Remember that she is your family.

[awediot]

But associating sex with clothes, jewelry, cars, luxury, etc... it just devalues sex.

And strutting proudly down the street in saran wrap and a strap on doesn't?

And... as Christians, we are to love unconditionally. We are to live our lives with compassion. Our shaming and condemning the more "risque" or vulgar among us does not resemble Christ.

Loving unconditionally does not mean accepting any and all actions unconditionally. Christ shamed people all the time out of His love for them.
I'll love her, but she's an embarrassment creating her own prejudice. Don't blame the right for pointing her out or cringing... We do too.

...but consider where she's been. Remember God's heart for her. Remember that she is your family.

Apply that to the dreaded Right Wing as well... love your enemy.

[Dash]

But associating sex with clothes, jewelry, cars, luxury, etc... it just devalues sex.

And strutting proudly down the street in saran wrap and a strap on doesn't?

And... as Christians, we are to love unconditionally. We are to live our lives with compassion. Our shaming and condemning the more "risque" or vulgar among us does not resemble Christ.

Loving unconditionally does not mean accepting any and all actions unconditionally. Christ shamed people all the time out of His love for them.
I'll love her, but she's an embarrassment creating her own prejudice. Don't blame the right for pointing her out or cringing... We do too.

...but consider where she's been. Remember God's heart for her. Remember that she is your family.

Apply that to the dreaded Right Wing as well... love your enemy.

I agree with Nathan, that the association of sex with money, wealth, possessions, seems far more vulgar than any flagrant display of sexuality. (I'm also a huge fan of public displays of affection...I realize that most people can't stand that...I love to see people openly expressing their love.)

I think Nathan has it right also about not distancing ourselves from the ones by whom prudes are so repulsed. I think it is a mistake to go in the direction you take with the "Christ shaming" argument. Christ never distanced himself from the "disgusting" elements of society...he certainly never spent any (recorded) time shaming them.

But, perhaps you are thinking about comments he made to those who thought they were better than "sinners." THOSE people had no shame, and for them he had some angry words. But there's no correlative shaming of the people that "righteous" folk abhor.

I am one who generally thinks people need to get over sex...get over the body. Sex is beautiful...the body is beautiful. But then, I've had very little sex in my life. And also, my own good father (conservative right-winger that he is...God bless him) spoke to me numerous times as I was growing up saying, "even pornography can be beautiful"--a point that I find to be poignantly true sometimes.

The type of shame and cringing that many feel when looking upon "sinners"... these are silly reactions based in fear. Shed them as you would false superstitions. They will never lead you to where Love would have you go. You will do far better to identify with "sinners" than try to distance youself from them.

[awediot]

I see sex as private, intense and beautiful, and the one thing above all else you keep to share with that one, single person. Anything outside of that degrades it... So often we hear "its, just sex" stated proudly as if modesty and reserve are a thing to be overcome. "Just" sex is a pretty sad loss. (a generalization. I know you never said this...)

I can no more picture Jesus high-kicking it down the street in chaps and strap on or waving some gigantic phallus in the name of pride, than I see Him on the sidewalk screaming insults. He'd probably be sitting at a lonely booth with a cross on it, being ridiculed from both sides.

Sinners are my brothers and sisters and myself. Our sins I want to cause shame, because they cause damage and I fear considering them silly too soon. It is not them I wish to distance my self from. It is their and my own destructive, humiliating, sexually degrading and loveless acts... I struggle to regain some long, lost "prudishness". Its the last thing that can still offend.

[Daniel]

I am one who generally thinks people need to get over sex...get over the body. Sex is beautiful...the body is beautiful. But then, I've had very little sex in my life. And also, my own good father (conservative right-winger that he is...God bless him) spoke to me numerous times as I was growing up saying, "even pornography can be beautiful"--a point that I find to be poignantly true sometimes.


Dash- I think as you do, that people need to get over the whole notion of sex. Its is beautiful, or at least, can be when heart is involved.

Porn, while it initiated my inexperienced mind to a repertoire of manuevers, didn't incorporate matters of the heart for the most part, though I did, as you mentioned, see that the interlocking bodies of men was beautiful. That was a revelation. That said, this isn't the reason why most of us watch it! I've come to thing that porn, in its more darker aspects, can initiate a gay man to his Shadow, something that is talked about in Jungian psychology, which needs integration, not rejection.

And though I have been in a long-lived relationship (some have compared gay years to dog years- that would make it 14 X 7 = 98 :rolleyes: ), I've observed that all the issues and challenges associated with sex do not lessen in the slightest. In fact, they are heightened in the cauldron of relationship. It's not simply about who does what to whom and if one getting one's 'needs' met. That's just the surface of things. I think sex can shake us to the core. The trantics among us certainly think so. Though not having a great deal of experience in that area, I would venture the thought: the energy of sex has to keep flowing or it makes us radioactive.

[Zerbie]

Daniel,

Can we hear more about this Jungian Shadow thing? (I NEVER studied Jung, how does porn introduce a gay man to his Shadow (and what the heck is his Shadow?) and do you think it's any different for a gay guy than for anyone else on different sides of the rainbow spectrum?

Oh and - Whaddaya mean, radioactive???

[Daniel]

Zerbie,

I was first introduced to Jung's ideas via two books by the the Canadian psychologist Graham Jackson- The Secret Lore of Gardening and The Living Room Mysteries: Patterns of Male Intimacy. Graham places the inner archetypal dynamic between men along two central color axes: green and yellow; blue and red. (Example: a green and yellow relationship might be between a gardener and a philospher.) I've found his ideas to be provocative stuff.

Here's some sources on the Shadow.

http://www.shadowdance.com/shadow/theshadow.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Jung

The shadow
The shadow is an unconscious complex that is defined as the diametrical opposite of the conscious self, the ego. The shadow represents everything that the conscious person does not wish to acknowledge within themselves. For instance, someone who identifies as being kind has a shadow that is harsh or unkind. Conversely, an individual who is brutal has a kind shadow. The shadow of persons who are convinced that they are ugly appears to be beautiful.
The shadow is not necessarily good or bad. It simply counterbalances some of the one-sided dimensions of our personality. Jung emphasized the importance of being aware of shadow material and incorporating it into conscious awareness, lest one project these attributes onto others.
The shadow in dreams is often represented by dark figures of the same gender as the dreamer, such as gangsters or prostitutes or beggars or liars.

http://psikoloji.fisek.com.tr/jung/shadow.htm

If you imagine someone who is brave enough to withdraw all his projections, then you get an individual who is conscious of a pretty thick shadow. Such a man has saddled himself with new problems and conflicts. He has become a serious problem to himself, as he is now unable to say that they do this or that, they are wrong, and they must be fought against. He lives in the "House of the Gathering." Such a man knows that whatever is wrong in the world is in himself, and if he only learns to deal with his own shadow he has done something real for the world. He has succeeded in shouldering at least an infinitesimal part of the gigantic, unsolved social problems of our day.

In light of the above, one might say that, for gay men, porn is the place where one's unacknowledged desires can be faced for what they are. Or course, this is true for everyone, but gay men, because of the social stigma associated with homosexuality, can have a tough time dealing with things.

Radioactive?

My feeling is that, if one's projections aren't faced they end up eating us alive, much like a pool of water which has no in or outlet. The stagnant pool becomes toxic to itself and give off a poisonous green glow.

[jaltree]

I'm actually surprised that anyone is surprised... at the amount of sex and sleeze in the gay community that is.

Society has succesfully labelled the LGBT community as "perverts", "unnatural", "abominations to God" and any number of other derogitory terms. If you are a gay person growing up and hear this over and over and over again, and then end up identifying with the group, it's not surprising that a large number of that group take on the labels.

That is exactly why groups such as Soulforce are so important.

[awediot]

Women are given a natural pass on this topic... There's no lesbian baths, secret cruising areas and few hard core movies that aren't girl on girl made basically for men.... Compounding the sleaze, is that straight lust is tempered by the females willingness and emotional common sense. The Gay male community has no such built in buffer, and is worse off for its abscence...

[jaltree]

Women are given a natural pass on this topic... There's no lesbian baths, secret cruising areas and few hard core movies that aren't girl on girl made basically for men.... Compounding the sleaze, is that straight lust is tempered by the females willingness and emotional common sense. The Gay male community has no such built in buffer, and is worse off for its abscence...

I would agree about the "natural buffer" that men don't have built in. But I would respectfully disagree about women not having the "nasty places" that men do. Here in Seattle, there are at least two bath-houses I am aware of which cater to women... they are definitely more discreet about it, but they do exist.

[awediot]

But I would respectfully disagree about women not having the "nasty places" that men do. Here in Seattle, there are at least two bath-houses I am aware of which cater to women... they are definitely more discreet about it, but they do exist.

Fair enough. I should have said fewer or less prevalent (who knows what goes on in some of those "spas"). Men, and particularly gay men, don't tend to be know for their discretion... Or at least the indiscreet ones that manage to represent us aren't...The whole Self fulfilling thing...

[pnggrad79]

It was so interesting when I came out to my family, all of a sudden, after 40 years of knowing me inside and out, (pardon the pun), I was a pariah. My sisters who had let their sons stay with me for weeks that preceding summer, were horrified that their sons were "exposed" to homosexuality, as if I paraded them into my bedroom for a peep show. And as if I forced them to read my Advocate, and all the books I have on Lesbian/Gay relationships. And as if as I tucked them into bed at night (they were 3 and 4 at the time) I whispered, "You are going to grow up and be a flaming homo". All of a sudden that was the picture they painted of me, despite everything I had done up to that point to the contrary. All of a sudden I was a sex crazed nymphomaniac and could not be around children. To this day, my nephews are 5 and 6 and my sister will not even send me pictures of them, as if somehow by looking at the pictures, I will turn my nephews into Nate Berkus or Christopher Lowell. (my nephews should be so lucky)

I could only laugh because it is so preposterous and ludicrous. Somehow it all goes back to what I do in the bedroom, which by the way, to clear up any confusion, I do not publicize it nor do I talk about it to anyone. But now all of a sudden I am a villain.

I think Keltic is right-the glbt community has been on the outside for so long, it says, "I am going to hell anyway, might as well enjoy life now." I say that the glbt community is a monster society at large has created, and it doesn't like what it has created. They throw us out of their families, their colleges, and their churches because they say we a vile creatures, abominations, so we live up to that label.

In reality, 90% of us aren't like the labels placed on us. What I do in the bedroom is mine and my wife's business. Other than that, I am as normal as apple pie. I pay taxes to a government that does not grant me equal rights, I go to work for a homophobic school that would fire me if they knew I was gay, I go to church, an affirming church, and that is the only safe place in my world for me to be who I am. I live like everyone else.

I am tired of being blasted for 5% of my life (my sex life) and everything else that I do is ignored or colored by the 5%. I am more than that what I do in the bedroom. :mad:

[vaguy78]

So,
It's obvious that being sexual beings, that it's going to be a part of society no matter what our views are on it. The reality that sex, in it's many extremes will always be apart of our culture as humanity, but I absolutely believe that just because that is true, I shouldn't be force to participate in it.

I guess for me, i think that as much as i can within reason, I will just choose to not take part in or support organizations that continuously over indulge in pushing things in such a pornographich (whether soft or hard) manner.

interacting is one thing, but indulgence is another.

[Mia14]

I think I agree to some extent that many people only see the sexual acts when they think of gay people. I've actually heard someone say of a gay friend (without knowing that I was gay) "He's such a great guy, but I can't stand that he does those things with other men." To some, nothing else matters.

Gay women are very different from gay men in society. We're treated very differently - two beautiful women loving each other for the sake of a male observer is the subject of beer commercials, comedy movies, porn for straight men, and more. I think sometimes that it was considered almost natural for women to want to take male roles because it was seen that males were dominant and it's natural to want to upgrade. Conversely, I know a few people who use the word "gay", but shudder at the word "lesbian" as if it's some kind of flesh-eating disease.

[Liberal Crozier]

My own views on this subject is, of course, coloured by who I am and what I have seen and experienced in sixty years of observation of the LGBT scene.

When I was born, and throughout my youth and my early adulthood, the scientific community considered " homosexuality " as objectively disordered. The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual described gayness as abnormal psychosexuality.

Also, at that time, the Criminal Justice system in both the US and Canada considered " homosexual behaviour " as criminal to a serious misdemeanour or felonious level requiring prison terms.

In that same period, it was nearly impossible to purchase, lease or rent a house or apartment without producing a legal marriage certificate or licence.
Heterosexuals were equally discriminated upon on this issue. Please remember that birth certificates in both nations would state clearly whether or not you were " legitimate or illegitimate". Some Churches refused to ordain "bastard" children.

It is also true that from my birth to early adulthood, gay bars were practically underground speakezies where vice cops would entrap onsite. The Mafia and other criminal elements often owned and operated these criminal activities. Gay bathhouses and other such venues were also a good source of criminal business activities. Can't you just hear script from the GODFATHER.......providing the services that the "pessonovante" refuse to allow legally. The nascent gay pornographic industry was supposedly an organised-crime initiated business.

Fast forward to today. We have enlightened laws and psychiatric evaluations. No longer are gay bars opportunities for vice cops to arrest on site for merely engaging in a dating process. Today, the majority of lesbian and gays live lives of quiet desperation working daily in professions or occupations...coupled monogamously or trying to...and even raising children and attending gay-affirming houses of worship. The majority of individuals are not living psychosexually-oriented lives in gay ghettoes.

I suspect that in several generations, the individuals so defined will represent about the same percentage of our community as does the Hugh Heffner, strip club guys whose lives are defined in pursuit of the next vagina.