Your thoughts/musings/questions on bisexuality

[Zerbie]

'Cuz Awe asked. . .

For reference, see Awediot's thread "passing." The conversation started there.

Here are my thoughts: There was a time long ago when I knew exactly what bisexuality was and I embodied it. I was about 6 or 7. I didn't know the word, bisexual, however. I assumed it was part of human relationship and experience and feeling, and that it belonged. When I began hearing horrified whispers from grown ups about "homosexuals," I instantly suspected they meant same-sex couples, or the individuals attracted to their own sex, and that was the first time it occured to me that anyone considered those feelings separate or different from the rest of the normal course of life. I just assumed it all belonged.

But I managed to acquire some spooky feelings about homosexuality as the years progressed. Like it was the Halloween haunted house. It scared me to death.

Spent some years shoving self-awareness down, scared half to death, dating lots of boys I felt NOTHING for, JUST so that others wouldn't think I was a lesbian. The most important thing in my young life was that no one else think I might be a homosexual. All day long I worried about that. I was so busy worrying and refusing to face things under my nose that I got out of touch with everything I once knew about myself, like the fact that yes I CAN love guys, too.

First I came out as lesbian. Very openly - rainbow beads, activism, all that stuff. So when I finally felt my first intense sexual attraction towards a MAN :eek: I was horrified. I went through shock, shame, embarassment, grief, and intense anxiety about what my friends were going to think.

I cut myself off from several of the lesbian chicks I used to hang out with - so sure was I that they would reject me. I was too embarassed to tell them I had fallen for a guy, and I didn't want to lie, so I cut our friendship off. To this day I'm sorry, b/c they very well might have understood and I didn't give them a chance.

But ya know, it was extremely hard figuring out the bisexual thing b/c of definitions, stereotypes, and a complete lack of "role modeling" of anyone who identified as bisexual who I could relate to. I went to some Bi-Net meetings where every person there was a swinger. Kid you not. And there I was, a tied-in-knots virgin. Said, "Omigosh, this isn't me - these people have nothing in common with me, therefore I must not be bisexual." I thought if I didn't wanna disgustingly screw everything in sight, I COULDN'T be bi, I had to be either straight or gay. So, which was it?

So, that idea pushed me into identifying as lesbian when I was in fact, bi. I even went thru a phase identifying as a lesbian who liked men, since I couldn't relate to the stupid "bisexual" word. :rolleyes:

I really felt like I had to invent the wheel with my coming-out process. Like there were no bisexuals who shared my value system or anything like that. Like I really didn't belong ANYwhere. Like I don't belong with the straights, but the gays are going to either hate me, or swear I don't exist, and I'm either a totally confused straight chick or a lesbian in denial. And for a long time, that held me back. When I finally DID come out bi (finally!), I pulled out of gay activism and the gay community as a whole immediately, feeling like I would not be welcome. That came from assumption, I didn't give my gay friends a chance to prove me wrong. I just - left.

I only got involved in "our community" again the past 2 years when all the anti-gay rhetoric stepped up and I just could not sit in front of the TV enjoying how great my life turned out, while politicians steam-roll over the folks I still and always consider my brothers and sisters.

And that describes the journey so far.

What are your questions/experiences relating to bisexuality?

[BruceChris]

Even if you're all sandy, and being chased by millions of bats!
My take on sexuality is that, like it says in Genesis, God created us
(yes, each and every single one of us) Male and Female, not
male or female. Orientation, Identity, Anatomy, hormones, and Genetics,
in almost ANY combination.

[Zerbie]

Even if you're all sandy, and being chased by millions of bats!
My take on sexuality is that, like it says in Genesis, God created us
(yes, each and every single one of us) Male and Female, not
male or female. Orientation, Identity, Anatomy, and Genetics,
in almost ANY combination.

Hey! Glad to see YOU are around! :D

You have an interesting, encompassing perspective on these matters - I'd like to hear more. Did you just always see things that way? or did you go through some wild and wacky journey of finding yourself and your own beliefs? Tell us more (if you wish.) :)

My hubby would get a chuckle out of your remark that God made us male AND female, b/c he sometimes says that I"m the quintessential bisexual, not just orientationally, but also somewhere deep in my brain I'm half female half male. Whatever. Doubt anyone could measure that, and if they could, I might not let them. What if it was painful? What if they had to carve my brain up?

Sorry - I'm getting silly - overtired. :p Really HAD to post tho to get the count up to 667 - not enjoying seeing 666 up there next to my name. :disagree:

[awediot]

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/violent/sterb133.gif

The whole anything that moves, have you cake and eat it too aspect of Bi-ness used to really bother me (probably more out of jealousy- The Woody Allen twice as many potential hook-up thing). And today, being very gay, I simply can't grasp how a choice can be made. Not to mention the implications of the word CHOICE as it applies to gayland. I can see the turmoil in deciding between chocolate syrup or caramel on your ice cream, but chocolate or ketchup is no option... I have had two women friends I could have married, if it were, or weren't for... well, you know. Loving another's personality or Soul makes for beautiful friendships, not bedmates.

I used to believe bisexuality was a step or phase of sort of coming out, but I have since heard enough sincere stories and seen orientation fluctuate enough to know one can settle there, and not have to settle one way or another (lucky bastards/bitches).
...and not. it all comes with a price... It is very true that the gay community can feel a sense of betrayal and anger when one of our own switches to the other side, though that is not how it feels to the person... Something else to chalk up to the un-understandable on my growing list...

[Daniel]

We live is such a dualitic world: right and wrong, up and down, in and out, black and white, gay and straight. Does everything really have to pair up into neat opposites? I think not. We already know that the world is a much more interesting and complex place. Hence: GLBTQ (thank you Nate for the last letter...this last one has a curious way of putting all those before it into relief)

The mystics among us are fond of saying 'Likes Attract', meaning that the inner- and for the most part hidden- dynamic between two people is the real operating system. Perhaps we have to learn how to see, listen and feel with our inner senses to make sense of these things.

[Vortex]

I for a time thought myself bisexual, but after much introspection into my true feelings I found I used it only as an escape to not have to accept that I was different from others. This was just apart of my own progression in trying to accept who I was. As a consequence I came to see bisexuality as a pseudo-orientation for those not able to accept their own homosexuality. The ‘idea’ of bisexuality even came to make me angry as I thought that it only gave ammo to the absolutists out there who preached that homosexuality was a conscious choice.

I came to realize though that this absolutist view of mine that people had to be either gay or straight was a perfect demonstration of the concrete thinking many use when dismissing homosexuality. I had no experience or feelings for what it was to be a bisexual and I had allowed that ignorance to be the driving force behind my beliefs on bisexuality (sound familiar?).

It is both a humbling and enlightening experience to face ones own ignorance, especially when it relates to something you think you have a grasp on. It is important that we not let our own egos of ‘who we are’ and ‘what we believe’ blind us to the many possibilities that present themselves in life.

[Zerbie]

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/violent/sterb133.gif

The whole anything that moves, have you cake and eat it too aspect of Bi-ness used to really bother me (probably more out of jealousy- The Woody Allen twice as many potential hook-up thing). And today, being very gay, I simply can't grasp how a choice can be made. Not to mention the implications of the word CHOICE as it applies to gayland. I can see the turmoil in deciding between chocolate syrup or caramel on your ice cream, but chocolate or ketchup is no option... I have had two women friends I could have married, if it were, or weren't for... well, you know. Loving another's personality or Soul makes for beautiful friendships, not bedmates.

I used to believe bisexuality was a step or phase of sort of coming out, but I have since heard enough sincere stories and seen orientation fluctuate enough to know one can settle there, and not have to settle one way or another (lucky bastards/bitches).
...and not. it all comes with a price... It is very true that the gay community can feel a sense of betrayal and anger when one of our own switches to the other side, though that is not how it feels to the person... Something else to chalk up to the un-understandable on my growing list...

Ah yes.:rolleyes: Sarcasm following shortly, saddle up. ;)

That Woody Allen remark - my experience says, NOT. AT. ALL. I think genuine bisexuals hafta be the only people in the world who, out on a date, have to come out to the person they are dating and face condemnation for betraying the lesbian sisterhood :rolleyes: OR, and this one actually happened to me, out with a cute guy on a first date when he started in about "the homosexuals" in that tone of voice, so I came out to him and he looked at me like I was crawling with maggots. Talk about your awkward first date! WE barely survived each other through dinner and couldn't get that check paid fast enough! :lol:

Oh yes, we get twice as many options on a Friday nite, :rolleyes: and 50% of them think bisexuals are disgusting sex-crazed freaks, or traitors to the sisterhood, and out of the remaining 50% of folk, then you get to sift through the guys I always called "The Lesbian-Collectors," straight-dudes who routinely chase gay girls and try to 'convert' them (the male counterpart to "Fag-Hags with Hooks") or/and have voyeuristic lesbian fantasy/fetishes they try to fit you in, and also the ladies who think b/c your orientation is bi that you automatically will dump them for a guy, and after sifting through all those people, then you GET TO SEE WHO'S LEFT!!! Oh, soooo many pickings.:rolleyes: I tell ya, it ain't easy to find dating material - or at least it wasn't for me.:disagree:

But I will say, being visibly open about who and what I was made it very easy and smooth when I met my husband. When he started talking marriage, I thought I had this big important issue to raise, but when I mentioned my orientation he laughed and said, "Oh, this is NEWS????" :cool: So, it did make coming out a moot point when I did finally meet my partner.

Interesting point you raise Awe, about loving personalities or Souls making friendships, not bedmates. I don't know what the Magic Something is, but there is a Magic Something that clicks sometimes and not others. I do not feel sexually stimulated by everyone just b/c my orientation gives me that potential. :disagree: Uh uh. To the contrary, there have been relatively few people I felt much for in that realm. Just picky, I guess. Most people I get to know I end up loving emotionally, but that does not spill over into the Magic Something that turns on those fires.

So, question for ya Awe:
is it really SO different from you that I have the potential to be attracted to either a man or a woman, yet I may or may not actually be attracted to a particular individual? Is it any different from you having the potential to be attracted to a man, yet you may or may not be attracted to any particular individual man? The process is the same, only certain characteristics of the object (the desired person) in my case might change, while in yours they stay the same. I'm not "deciding" to have the feelings - they just happen, or not. Holy crap, I could NOT find a more articulate way of asking the question. I think ya can get where I'm going, tho. ??

I get ya on the matter of choice. Bisexuality seems to imply a matter of choice, just by existing. It is true that some genuine bisexuals can spend their entire lives in "heterosexual priviledge." We do have that choice. It's strange water to navigate through. There is a lot of negative emotion in the gay community surrounding anything that can be construed as a challenge or a betrayal, and I have concerns about running into that. Well, I have run into it a few times. It was painful. I am aware that my life story does smack of a gigantic Flip-Flop in terms of my sexuality, which given the current climate of ex-gay propaganda, can be construed as threatening. I do not want my mere existence to be threatening to my own community. Quite the contrary. I have to just tough it out and understand that those who don't "get" me are simply unable to relate to my experience, and respect the fact that they are going to have some negative emotions.

Another Q: Why did it bother you, Awe? Was it because you thought bisexuality didn't exist? DId you think people were lying to you? Because it would certainly make sense to feel upset, if so.

Oh and another part of the confusion is that identifying as bi can indeed be a 'step' on the way to coming out as gay or lesbian. It is a word, anyone can use it. Taken to silly extremes, I guess you could say my sexuality changed every time I felt attracted, no matter how slightly, to a new individual. . .I chalk all of this up under the Bullet Heading, "Life is weird. VERY weird."

[Zerbie]

I for a time thought myself bisexual, but after much introspection into my true feelings I found I used it only as an escape to not have to accept that I was different from others. This was just apart of my own progression in trying to accept who I was. As a consequence I came to see bisexuality as a pseudo-orientation for those not able to accept their own homosexuality. The ‘idea’ of bisexuality even came to make me angry as I thought that it only gave ammo to the absolutists out there who preached that homosexuality was a conscious choice.

I came to realize though that this absolutist view of mine that people had to be either gay or straight was a perfect demonstration of the concrete thinking many use when dismissing homosexuality. I had no experience or feelings for what it was to be a bisexual and I had allowed that ignorance to be the driving force behind my beliefs on bisexuality (sound familiar?).

themselves in life.


Oh, how ironic is this?! I LOVE this post, Vortex, thank you for coming back and sharing! The irony is - here you are, a gay person, who used to identify as bisexual b/c you weren't fully able to see yourself as gay, and here I am - a bisexual who used to identify as lesbian, b/c I couldn't fully see myself as bi. :lol: :lol: :lol: Wanna swap tee shirts next? ;) :D

And - a major part of my refusal to consider myself bi was that I too had the dualistic - you said "absolutist" - view that one has to be either gay OR straight, pick one. So, well, I did pick. And oops, I wasn't gay or straight - I was both/neither/all of the above. As a word, bisexual will do, it comes closest to describing my lifelong experience in this world.

What a wild and wacky wormcan! :disagree: :rolleyes: Thanks Awe, for asking the question - feel free to ask more if you have them. While I'm on a roll and all that. . . :p :love:

I go back to: Life is weird. VERY weird.

Basically, what Daniel says. Life is far more than analysis makes it out to be. And I also enjoy the Q in GLBTQ. I tend to prefer the word "queer" even to bisexual. Does that make me strange?:p Nahhhhh. :D :)

Daniel, thank you for your post. Big hugs. :love:

[awediot]

"LIFE IS VERY WEIRD" Zerbie

Better than sex...

Maybe, eventually, as smooth, sealed, sexless beings, when intimacy and closeness has transcended mere touch and orgasm, and the penetrating of auras shivers us beyond belief, when contact takes practice, reproduction ends with there being enough of us, and even hearts and minds will forget we were all bi, bodies can move on to better things.

...wish I could blame it on a doobie. just weird life tonight.


http://www.clicksmilies.com/s0105/linie/smiley-linie-001.gif

[Zerbie]

"LIFE IS VERY WEIRD" Zerbie

Better than sex...

Maybe, eventually, as smooth, sealed, sexless beings, when intimacy and closeness has transcended mere touch and orgasm, and the penetrating of auras shivers us beyond belief, when contact takes practice, reproduction ends with there being enough of us, and even hearts and minds will forget we were all bi, bodies can move on to better things.

...wish I could blame it on a doobie. just weird life tonight.


http://www.clicksmilies.com/s0105/linie/smiley-linie-001.gif


Oh. My. God.

I am still shivering from having read this - Awe!!!!!!!! :eek:

That's gotta be one of the most incredible, gorgeous things I've ever read.
:love: :rainbow:


But, er - what's a doobie??? :confused:

Love ya,

Z

[awediot]

oh Zerb, if you don't know what a doobie is, your to innocent to be reading my ectoplasmic porn...


http://www.websmileys.com/sm/crazy/1385.gif http://www.websmileys.com/sm/crazy/1386.gif




it a joint, and not in your elbow

[BruceChris]

I don't know how so many of you can post so often.



You have an interesting, encompassing perspective on these matters - I'd like to hear more. Did you just always see things that way? or did you go through some wild and wacky journey of finding yourself and your own beliefs? Tell us more (if you wish.)

Well, I've always known that I've been different, and I've always been shy.
I've always identified at least more with women than with men. And no, I'm not Gay or Trans. Took a while to find out. (And yeah, I am definitely attracted to Women, especially Tomboys.) Lately I have heard the matter of identifying with both men in some way, and women in others as being bi-gendered. I have always felt
most at home in the feminist and women's community, and in the GLBTetc
community.

"I used to be Gay, but it wasn't me, so I moved on to other things" -- Richard Burton.

Yeah, I can identify with that.

I still am most at home in the communities that I mentioned, and in order to help me sort myself out, I have done a LOT of reading, I have a good medical background, and spent a lot of time learning how to be a part of the two communities. Even some activism.

The first time that I met a MtoF transsexual lesbian, I said "Hey that shudda been ME"

Another side of who I am.

(Was it Jennifer who posted "We can talk about anything we want here" ? I hope she is right. But then I do try to reach out to newbies that admit that they're afraid of being rejected, by US, no less :confused: :love: :pray:) So now most of you will know more about me than I did for half of my life. And yes, I DO believe that we are each all male and/or female, variously, in terms of identity, orientation, anatomy, hormones and/or genetics. I seem to have met someone of most of the possible combinations, or so it seems. If you are really serious, take a good, hard look at www.bodieslikeours.org/content/view/214/103 and then think about what it says. For the first few weeks of life, ALL of our bodies are identical, or nearly so.

Peace, Love, and Rock and Roll, BruceChris

[Vanessa White]

First of all, I want to openly applaud Zerbie for being so open and direct about her own process, and her seeming to feel self-identified as bisexual openly here and embracing it. It takes a level of courage that I admire. And look where it has brought you today- recently celebrating two years with a hubby that you adore! That is just awesome.

When I was in grad school, one of my professors talk about sexual orientation actually being on a type of continuum of sorts. One extreme end being fully heterosexual and the other end being fully homosexual. His belief as was the belief of the theorist who proposed it, is that sexual orientation is pretty fluid for us humans, and it may fluctuate throughout the life span from one part of the continuum to another. It helps me to embrace a greater understanding of the processes persons go through in determining where they best fit, whom they are most comfortable with, etc.

Zerb: Do you get the doobie part now? I know awediots writing of the meaning was a little hard to read in yellow!!! Love ya, Vanessa:love: :love:

[Zerbie]

Yeah, Awe (and Vanessa), I finally managed to decipher the tiny yellow font. :rolleyes: I am a bit "pure" I admit it - especially when it comes to substances.
But I contend that with my life and my brain, I don't NEED any substances. :p And as your post from last night attests, awe, neither do you. Speaking of awe, that's what I got from reading it. You are more than welcome to toss ectoplasmic porn my way any time ya like - that was. . .incredible! they should market that stuff - I'd buy it. :D

((((((((((BruceChris))))))))) - your story deserves a more considered response than I am taking time for now. . .but wanted to extend you some great big hugs. Thanks for sharing that openly and with all of us. It's good to know better who you are and where you're coming from.:rainbow:

If I understand you right, you sorta see yourself as a straight dude who identifies inside with MtF lesbians??? But you're not actually trans? Is that right? I will re-read your post again later to be more sure, and check back to see if you've responded again. Anyway, here ya go: :love: :love: :love: :love: :love: :love:

Ah yes the continuum - I think it's the most accurate model we have for explaining our feelings and behavior. And I would be someplace very close to the middle. Yep. Yeppers. Kinsey 3 I am, one s'poses. Another thing, Vanessa, they say that females tend to have more fluid sexual response patterns than men do - it would be interesting to learn more about how that happens.

Oh and just a tiny correction - it's THREE years married! Three years last week! And yes, we do adore each other, I can't believe how great it is. I wish everyone this much happiness.

[Vanessa White]

I had never heard that about women having my fluidity than men, but my life experience kind of confirms that with women and men that I have known. Sounds like a good doctoral study to do in my future. I would want to distinguish by gender aspects of fantasizing vs. actually being attracted to someone of the same sex and acting on it, what all that has to do with how prone men would be admit those feelings as opposed to women.

And, it has to be said, even though I absolutely adore women- all aspects, I have met men in my adult life that I felt either a mental/emotional attraction to, and occasionally a physical attraction to. And, I have it so bad for Jon Bon Jovi (I am not kidding, folks) that I would probably jump his bones in a second! I am more amazed as time goes by how so many connections that we have with people seem to have to transcend the bounds of gender, because gender is such a socialized phenomena that it is hard to determine beyond that what the actual differences are!

[BruceChris]

:eek: :mad:

[Zerbie]

BruceChris,

No, it isn't your post - it's the nature of what we're talking about. I re-read your post now that I have some food in me (better brain-function that way) and I'm more sure that I've understood you now. I hope my response didn't upset you, but it looks like it did. I'm sorry. I was very happy to read your story and get to know you better - and from the other things I've shared on this thread already you can imagine that I relate to a lot of what you've said.

I'm sorry that I upset you.

[Zerbie]

I had never heard that about women having my fluidity than men, but my life experience kind of confirms that with women and men that I have known. Sounds like a good doctoral study to do in my future. I would want to distinguish by gender aspects of fantasizing vs. actually being attracted to someone of the same sex and acting on it, what all that has to do with how prone men would be admit those feelings as opposed to women.

And, it has to be said, even though I absolutely adore women- all aspects, I have met men in my adult life that I felt either a mental/emotional attraction to, and occasionally a physical attraction to. And, I have it so bad for Jon Bon Jovi (I am not kidding, folks) that I would probably jump his bones in a second! I am more amazed as time goes by how so many connections that we have with people seem to have to transcend the bounds of gender, because gender is such a socialized phenomena that it is hard to determine beyond that what the actual differences are!

Vanessa, you cracked me up with the Bon Jovi thing! But I totally get it - and yeah, it's been said often that women are more likely to experience a fluid sexuality (or be bisexual) than men are, who are more likely to experience a fixed sexual orientation (either/or) throughout their lives. I've read it often enough that it seeped into my head as being part of common folklore, so I can't point you to any sources. . .

[Mia14]

I'm one of those who maybe contribute to some of the cloudiness of bisexuality because I identified as bisexual for about a year or so before I came out as lesbian. :o

I believe that bisexuality is valid, not just as a stage before homosexuality, but it happened to be so for me. I thought it would give my family hope that I'd still end up with a guy while opening up the idea that I'd be with girls, too. It also made it easier for me to test out my own feelings about my sexuality.

I can, to some point, agree to the ideas that we're all bisexual at some level. For the most part, I have the belief that all people are attracted to people and that if the right person came along, sparks would fly. That doesn't mean, however, that gay people can just hang around for that once in a million chance that the right person of the opposite gender will come along.

For myself, I adore women and their complexities and I think the female body is absolutely gorgeous and miraculous (childbirth - how much more amazing can you get?). I won't get into my feelings of the male body because they're not my fancy, but I'm sure other people on this forum appreciate it. I could, however, see myself falling for a guy emotionally - this actually happened once and it was a longer relationship that ended as soon as physical aspects came into play because I wasn't interested.

[Zerbie]

I can, to some point, agree to the ideas that we're all bisexual at some level. For the most part, I have the belief that all people are attracted to people and that if the right person came along, sparks would fly. That doesn't mean, however, that gay people can just hang around for that once in a million chance that the right person of the opposite gender will come along.

For myself, I adore women and their complexities and I think the female body is absolutely gorgeous and miraculous (childbirth - how much more amazing can you get?). I won't get into my feelings of the male body because they're not my fancy, but I'm sure other people on this forum appreciate it. I could, however, see myself falling for a guy emotionally - this actually happened once and it was a longer relationship that ended as soon as physical aspects came into play because I wasn't interested.

With ya. As to that first paragraph I quoted above, that's what I chalk up under the category, "Life happens." Ya can't predict it anymore than ya can control it. But even so I don't think that fact undermines the validity or actuality of a gay (or straight) orientation for the many many people who have fairly stable, polarized, mono-sexualities.

I'm totally hearin' ya on that last bit about liking guys emotionally and then it all falling apart b/c the physical attraction isn't there. HOW many guys did I confuse that way?! :rolleyes: I dropped so many guys right after we first kissed/made out/what-have-you, and b/c I didn't know WHY I was feeling nothing, I didn't know what/how to tell them. So I just pulled a disappearing act. Not proud of it, in hindsight.
Even at the time I was dating them I was aware that I really wanted them as friends, not boyfriends. I think that's a great deal of what drew me to gay men - I could be friends with guys without concern about them getting physical with me, and I"m someone who craves male friendship, so I needed that. But oh - all those confused straight boys I dumped right after our first kiss! Tsk tsk tsk. And what an irony I ended up with a guy, after all! :p

[Dash]

Some years ago my one of my best ex-friends, Meredith, got in my face in the frame shop where we worked. Chin out, glaring up at me, she growled, "You cannot be bi! You have to pick! One or the other!"

It wasn't the easiest time. I never claimed to be bi, but gave off both straight and gay "vibes," as certain friends reported. Still conditioned by culture to expect romance with a girl, but not feeling it...no experience with guys, but never without a desperate crush on some handsome man in my life...I just couldn't imagine what it would be like to be romantically involved with a guy. My male friendships, on the other hand were always deeply spiritual, very intense and emotional...just without any awareness of erotic feeling. The crushes and the male friendships were never the same guys. Everything was mixed up.

But now, interestingly, I find myself wishing sometimes I was bi. There are women in my life that are so beautiful to me, and given particular circumstances, I suppose I'd not be opposed to giving it a try. Hahah!! I just don't want to hurt people. I've always avoided anything that might wound another's heart.

From Plato's dialogue Symposium, I got the idea of growing from a singular attraction (to one person) to a broader, all encompassing love (loving all persons), and then to knowing beauty itself. Progressing from a "monosexual" orientation, to a bisexual one, and then an all encompassing appreciation and knowledge of beauty itself regardless of the gender or state through which it manifests itself.

"For this is what it is to proceed correctly, or to be led by another, to erotics—beginning from these beautiful things here, always to proceed on up for the sake of that beauty, using these beautiful things here as steps: from one to two, and from two to all beautiful bodies; and from beautiful bodies to beautiful pursuits; and from pursuits to beautiful lessons; and from lessons to end at that lesson, which is he lesson of nothing else than the beautiful itself; and at last to know what is beauty itself." ~Plato, Symposium...trans. Seth Bernardete.

One of the more fascinating things about my attractions lately is my new appreciation for the androgynous beauty of transgendered people. Years ago, I was terrified of the concept. So...one of my last instinctive bigotries has become an attraction? I love it!! Haha!

[Mia14]

Zerbie, I had the same situations with many guys I dated in high school. We'd be a great couple until the kiss. I feel bad for those poor guys and their confusion, but I agree with you about wanting their friendship. At one point I pronounced myself permanently single and unopen to dating and then developed some great friendships with guys - but only after I was honest about there being no chance of dating.

Dash, that exerpt from Plato really gets me thinking...

[Zerbie]

Mia, I relate so much to the things you say! Yeah, yeah, and yeah! Only, I wish I'd had such a good experience with guys when I became "unavailable." Sad to report that a few guys got in my face belligerently - kind of like your friend, Dash - only in the reverse, saying "You're not a lesbian. You're bisexual." Yeah, French for they wanted in my pants and figgered they were the guy for me in some not-very-friendly way. . .:rolleyes: In hindsight, I'm fairly certain that at least 2 of them were conflicted about their OWN orientations at the time.

Those guys were another factor in my refusal to acknowledge that I REALLY was bi, for such a long time. Their reactions only made me more adamant that I was a lesbian, and I got defensive about that label, as it was one I had really fought for, with struggle. I thought myself lesbian from childhood on until my mid-late 20s. There was one guy who was a HUGE blip on the radar screen when I was 19 - but he was 43, married, AND perennially questioning his own sexual orientation, so I stayed away. For another 8 years there was NO other male who turned me on.

I too enjoyed the quote, Dash. I relate pretty well. When I called myself lesbian, I always said Lesbian in real life but philosophically bisexual. Once I came out as REALLY bi, it felt so good to have all of me in accord, philosophically, emotionally, and physically. And finally, finally, after all those years I felt secure about my sexuality again.

As to sometimes you wish you were bi, well, maybe you're philosophically bisexual! Anyway, the book isn't written yet - life happens, and if we are open to it, it tends to lead us to wherever we belong. There are stranger things in the universe than a 'lesbian' falling for a guy (as happened with me.) Ya know, like, black holes. :lol:

[Vanessa White]

That quote is really something, what an impact it is having on me, and I know I need to go back and read it yet again. I find myself thinking on the concept almost daily of how we (hopefully) evolve throughout our lives in how we come to appreciate beauty, in others and in ourselves. I don't necessarily desire to be anything but lesbian in my orientation, but I definitely am open to creating friendships and relationships, on all levels, with both men and women in a totally new way- kind of like what Dash said about loving human beings. As far as full, complete intimacy and being in love with someone, I don't envision that full package ever being with anyone but a woman.

[Poetic Awakening]

Enjoying the stories here... though I don't really have alot of insight on a whole lot at the moment. However, when I was first questioning my confrontation with same sex attractions (weird thing was I realized that my best friend in kindergarten was actually my first crush :confused: ) I thought I might be gay, and that really threw me for a loop (sad story, believe me). But recently I've come to terms with the fact bisexuality isn't "I like girls, but I'm not opposed to guys(?)". For me, it's really more like "I like girls, and just the same, I like guys, too."

I don't know why, but I always thought (before I realized I was bi) that gay men were checking out EVERY guy! It sort of shakes things up when you see that it's just like feeling attracted to girls... you have those 'types' you like, and at times, alot of 'types' you feel perfectly fine settling on friendship with. I guess my initial impression with what I feel is that bisexuals aren't really crazed sex machines as I hear is the myth these days. It also seems to make my attractions 'healthier' towards girls when I'm more comfortable with my being bi. I guess before it was some inherent desperation to continue the species at all costs? :eek:

Anyway, as I accept myself (at least to myself, for now) I feel alot better. I don't know what the future holds, but I can feel at least good about myself on all levels in the here and now...

That's my ametuer musing attempt for today....

Poetic

[Vanessa White]

Poetic: Just wanted to welcome you to the forums and to Soulforce! Great to have you around, and we have a lot of good discussions here. I like what you have to say about no matter what gender or person attracts us, being strictly gay, straight, or bisexual, doesn't mean we are attracted to every person of one or both genders, it is still a matter of the type of person that we feel most connected with. It sounds like you are in a more comfortable place than earlier in your life, which will probably continue to evolve and grow over time. Glad to see you around! Peace, Vanessa:love: :love:

[Zerbie]

Awakening:

I'm glad to seeya here too. :)

What you said about thinking bisexuals were crazed sex-machines who indiscriminately want everybody defines for me the reason I thought I COULDN'T be bi. As I think I mentioned earlier in this thread, I'm picky, and have had a lot fewer relationships than most of my friends have had, for instance. I couldn't relate to the wild sex machine thing - so I thought I had to pick between gay and straight.

It's all a process, isn't it? :rolleyes:

Glad to see you posting.

[Lydia]

being strictly gay, straight, or bisexual, doesn't mean we are attracted to every person of one or both genders, it is still a matter of the type of person that we feel most connected with.

If we were sitting in church, I'd be saying "amen" right about now. :)

Haven't been ignoring this thread, btw, just was busy with my SO while he was on vacation. He's back at work now. ;)

[Zerbie]

Hey Lydia,

'Zat mean we get to hear more of your perspective on this stuff now?

I been waitin' on ya.

[Lydia]

Yes, but not tonight. Getting sleepy, and all. :)

[Zerbie]

:D Okay, we can wait another day, :lol:

Have a good night's sleep. Pleasant dreams.

[kimmyd]

Tee hee...snicker snicker...

I know what a doobie is!:D






Oh. My. God.

I am still shivering from having read this - Awe!!!!!!!! :eek:

That's gotta be one of the most incredible, gorgeous things I've ever read.
:love: :rainbow:


But, er - what's a doobie??? :confused:

Love ya,

Z

[tdogg]

"For this is what it is to proceed correctly, or to be led by another, to erotics—beginning from these beautiful things here, always to proceed on up for the sake of that beauty, using these beautiful things here as steps: from one to two, and from two to all beautiful bodies; and from beautiful bodies to beautiful pursuits; and from pursuits to beautiful lessons; and from lessons to end at that lesson, which is he lesson of nothing else than the beautiful itself; and at last to know what is beauty itself." ~Plato, Symposium...trans. Seth Bernardete.

One of the more fascinating things about my attractions lately is my new appreciation for the androgynous beauty of transgendered people. Years ago, I was terrified of the concept. So...one of my last instinctive bigotries has become an attraction? I love it!! Haha!

Great quote Dash! I understand what you say about appreciating the androgynous beauty of trans people. One of the things that makes me wildly attracted to my partner is that I can see the masculine as well as feminine in her, all at the same time. It drives me crazy! I am attracted to those who are in a sense androgynous - not totally female, not totally male. Although I can appreciate a very feminine and a very masculine body. I wondered for a time if I was bisexual. But after being in my current relationship as well as a past brief 'fling' with a friend, I can say that I have no interest in a romantic relationship with a man. They make awesome friends but just don't do it for me in the romance department. I believe for someone to be truly happy and satisfied with a partner (sexual and otherwise) for any length of time, they must be fufilled not only physically, but also mentally, emotionally and spiritually. For me, that has only happened with a woman. Their softness, their tears, their caretaking heart, their hair, the fluctuations of their voice, etc. etc.

[Zerbie]

I get it Tdogg. ;)

Didn't mean to overlook Dash's wonderful comment about the beauty of trans people.

When I was single, I wouldn't have closed the door on a relationship with a transgendered person, MtF or FtM. Or for that matter, someone who was "intersexed." Once, a long time ago when I was questioning my sexuality, I had an erotic dream in which I am making love with someone I really like, yet while that's going on, s/he keeps switching physical sexes. The details would make this an X rated post, so I will leave them to everyone's imagination, but it was a wonderful dream! :rainbow: It answered my question about my orientation, if only I had paid attention. I was completely open to romantic and sexual intimacy with a male or a female, or someone "in between" and all that mattered was caring, pleasuring, loving them.

I am attracted to the *being* in people. Yes, the transgendered can be very sexy and very beautiful! Completely utterly so!

[Dash]

Zerbie, I just want to say that your statement about my perhaps being "philosophically bi" has stuck with me the last few days. :)

It also occurred to me that I should mention that I am very attracted to a certain kind of bisexual man...and they to me. They would be the ones, of course that are married or in a relationship with a girl...sigh. I used to think their attraction to me was all in my head till observant friends confirmed it again and again. I try to own this attraction of mine and learn from it, but I've never acted on it, or responded to the (sometimes outrageous) flirting that I experience. I usually think my attractions are an indication of some quality or other that I want or need to integrate into myself. I have two such men in my world at the moment, and the chemistry is both spicy and frustrating. hahah!

[Zerbie]

Dash - Oh no! I'm contaminating your mind! :lol: :lol: :lol:

*very* interesting experiences you share. . .hmmm.

Some bisexual people have only acknowledged one "half" or another of their sexuality. That can make relating to them a little iffy, if you're of the gender they haven't acknowledged attraction for.

Even so, isn't that magnetism engaging and fun to be around? It can be scintillating! The funnest part of being single.

[Dash]

Dash - Oh no! I'm contaminating your mind! :lol: :lol: :lol:

*very* interesting experiences you share. . .hmmm.

Some bisexual people have only acknowledged one "half" or another of their sexuality. That can make relating to them a little iffy, if you're of the gender they haven't acknowledged attraction for.

Even so, isn't that magnetism engaging and fun to be around? It can be scintillating! The funnest part of being single.

Hahah! Yes! Fun, as long as I'm not feeling all weak and desperate (it happens sometimes). Generally, it's a hoot!!!!

And I welcome you into my mind! :love:

[Daniel]

..and from lessons to end at that lesson, which is the lesson of nothing else than the beautiful itself; and at last to know what is beauty itself."

Dash- The Plato quote is absolutely mind expanding. Thank you for sharing it. Reminds me of the second song from Songs of Travel by R. Vaughn Williams. c 1905. Or course, the accompaniment adds something that can't be conveyed here unfortunately. The poem is by Robert Louis Stevenson.

Let Beauty awake in the morn from beautiful dreams,
Beauty awake from rest!
Let Beauty awake
For Beauty's sake
In the hour when the birds awake in the brake
And the stars are bright in the west!

Let Beauty awake in the eve from from the slumber of day,
Awake in the crimson eve!
In the day's dusk end
When the shades ascend,
Let her wake to the kiss of a tender friend,
To render again and recieve!

[Lydia]

Trotting in a bit late to the party. :)

oh if you don't know what a doobie is

I didn't know what it was either. Had to go to urbandictionary.com to find out. :rolleyes:

[Lydia]

This might be too personal of a question for a public board, but..


orientation fluctuate enough to know one can settle there, and not have to settle one way or another

Does anyone else find themselves periodically finding themselves attracted to one gender more than the other? And just when you're used to that - the bigger attraction switches to the other gender? :shifty: :)

[Dash]

Yes, Daniel...what a great song that is!!!

I don't know about sexual attraction, Lydia, but I've sometimes been more open or less open (emotionally) to the female gender. There were a number of years where I really didn't like girls much at all. It begin to change when I went back to school a couple years ago and I have some new beautiful friendships with women again.

Course...there has been the occasional crazy morning where I have literally sat bolt upright in bed from a dream of having full-on sex with a girl!!! :eek: :eek: :eek:

Hahah!!!

[Zerbie]

This might be too personal of a question for a public board, but..



Does anyone else find themselves periodically finding themselves attracted to one gender more than the other? And just when you're used to that - the bigger attraction switches to the other gender? :shifty: :)


:agree: (Waves hand wildly in air)

Oh yeah. Started out 100% into girls/women. Had a brief interest in a man when 19 years old. Then many females and no males at all til 27 3/4s years old. Either I am bisexual and periodically blind to one gender or the other, or I was a lesbian and am now straight, or I am sequentially bisexual (that is to say, alternately gay and straight) in 28 year cycles. Could it have to do with orbit of Jupiter around the sun? :lol:


Dash raises an interesting part of the question. Emotional versus sexual attraction. Sometimes they do not go together, but can be profound even when separate. I have had a tendency to be more romantically, sexually inspired by women, but more emotionally attracted, comfortable, and compatible with men. When the entire thing happens at once for an individual, it is most amazing.

[Daniel]

Course...there has been the occasional crazy morning where I have literally sat bolt upright in bed from a dream of having full-on sex with a girl!!!


My lateral thinking here, but I've had more than one dream where I was giving birth- and woke up with a start and a yell. There's been the occasional dream like yours too.....interesting. I wonder if straight guys have dreams of sleeping with men? And would they admit to it? What do you think? I've never heard of it.

[Zerbie]

My lateral thinking here, but I've had more than one dream where I was giving birth- and woke up with a start and a yell. .

Oh *my!* I'm female, and I've NEVER had a dream like that.

That's fascinating!

I frequently dream that I'm a man. I'm always some big, tall, sexy hot number, and I'm usually having sex in the dreams. It's great fun! :weee:

When I'm playing "myself" in sex dreams, they can be with either gender. One odd thing I noticed about erotic dreams is that I frequently dream I'm having passionate sex with someone I know in real life (it's always a DIFFERENT someone ;) ) who I am not at ALL attracted to. Not one whit. I wake up and can't believe what I was dreaming.

I've never heard of straight guys having sex dreams about other guys, either, though I'm sure it's happened.

[Vanessa White]

Although I have had spiritual/emotional attractions to men in the last few years at times, and physical/sexual attraction to them at times in the way past, if we are talking dreams here....

I do have dreams on occasion of being physically close/kissing a woman, and then, when we are making love, the person is a man. Not sure what that is all about. The dream world is so vivid and strange. Yet, if we are talking straight men dreaming about sex with men, I would bet that even if they wouldn't admit it, that many of them have fantasized or imagined sex with another man. There are studies that indicate a high percentage of young adults at least fantasize about same gender sexual encounters at some point in their lives. I can believe it.

[tdogg]

No one hears much about straight men having sex dreams with other men because they likely won't admit it! It's so nice to see real men who aren't afraid of themselves - they are in touch with their masculinity, femininity and whatever their "self" consists of! For that matter, it's nice to see women okay with all of their "self" too.

I am attracted to certain men, but can't ever see myself in a romantic relationship with one again - including sex even for unemotional purposes. It's that part where the attraction stops. To best put this quote from a book I recently read - "it's not that I don't like ...(insert your word for that certain male part), it's just that I prefer them on women..." I have never felt fulfilled emotionally, physically or spiritually from any of my past relationships with men. What I see now, is that it wasn't so much that they were men, but that for me, I can only get that from a woman.

I rarely have sex dreams of me and my partner - its normally me and someone else, a stranger or someone I know. And sometimes they do morph into a different gender or even individual. If I do dream of my partner, most often it's because the individual morphed into my partner. never dreamed of giving birth thank goodness!