The Highest Power Poll

[awediot]

I am making a new thread, or near entrapment of a POLL from the Short Change Churches and Theocracy-the Danger is Real... discussions, because they have gone beyond those titles and are converging into an important topic of its own. If you haven't been following either of those, do so if you want to catch some references, or just get a fresh start here.
This is an inevitable, divisive and core issue for anyone reading this. I have intentionally avoided bringing it up until now, knowing it would make way for itself. The question is childishly, and almost mindlessly simple for some, and impossibly, personally complex and elusive for others. And, if given time, the opposite...http://www.smileypad.com/v224/Funny/Explode.gifWhy that is, is part of why I pose it.

Just Fill in the blank... (above) I believe:______________.

A) God made us. B) We make God.

Let me elaborate a little:

By A), I am referring to the ideas held by the historic JudeoChristian belief, Islam, some Mythology and aspects of others that believe a Supreme Being, A Divine self aware consciousness, A Father/Mother (for lack of better terms) thought, chose and with intent, Made us and all we know. A God, the stereotype Michaelangelo, old bearded man reaching out to us from the Sistine Chapel's ceiling. God a being, complete with transcendent mind, desires, will, preferences et AL., and perhaps most, the ability to recognize itself as God. :Simply, God Made Us.

By B), I mean more of a Hindu Brahman or Buddhist perspective where God is ALL. An abstract, transcendent power or force or energy, that may permeate All, be the source of All, shape and hold matter, have some fashion of collective awareness, but not of the sort that is comprehensible, intentionally creative, separate and independent or divisible. It is not a Being as the above A) description sees it. We may incarnate it, but are not it. Yet are all being drawn and will likely, eventually merge with it in Nirvana. Though it may or may not exist outside of us, its form and function as a Deity or Godhead, is the result of our projection, which it may or not help shape. :Simply, We Make God.

There are vast planes of grey area that couldn't be covered in this blatantly black and white question. But they will, I imagine, still be an expansion on one or the other. If there is a unique third, C) option, You are called to Post it. You Must. If that is the only reason to register, you have no right to with hold such a needed perspective. There is no C) option above. So please explain how this was such an oversite...(a little ham fisted?) oh well... Either way, B) or A)...or C)

Your Highest Power wants YOU to stand, deliver and Respond! http://www.smileypad.com/v224/Misc/Prod.gif

[Vortex]

C. I do not know.

I know it may be viewed as an easy or over simplistic approach to dodging a very complex question, but it is the truth. While over the course of my life time I have come to see the ‘idea’ (I use this word carefully and mean no offense to anyone) of God as the omnipresent force that connects all living things much like that described in your answer ‘B’ I do not see this belief as having any more weight in the realm of truth than the God presented in answer ‘A’.

While things such as meaning and purpose in life are important to me, I have no fear or shame in not knowing something. Because of this my mind is always open to the infinite possibilities that may present themselves and I am always questioning. It maybe that we are incapable of ever truly knowing the answer to the question presented, but it should deter us from always questioning.

[Jennifer5]

I said B) ...... I don't know exactly why... it just felt like it fit.:)






Vortex... love that MLK quote.

[Daniel]

Can't vote. Not the way the questions are asked. (Talk about nit-picky!) Are they too reductive for me? In a word: yes.

Both questions maintain a subject-object conciousness that belies the nature of perception itself as understood in an especially Buddhistic world-view. As stated, each question presupposed an object doing something.

Well. Take that away and what does one have? (The sound of brains synapses frying.)

The thing (ha!) that comes to mind is the oft quoted (and I think I've posted this somewhere else here) admonition: "If you meet the Buddha on the road- Kill him!" What I glean from his saying is that our conceptions are the very things that can stand in the way of actually seeing things for what they are. Projections? Perhaps. But what is beyond our perceptions, conceptions and projections? That's what Enlightenment is all about, is it not?

[Vanessa White]

I am not giving my response, or a viable alternative yet awediot, because I really have to think on this one for awhile, mull it over and see what it means to me. Never really thought that deeply about it, but your suggesting it suggests to me that maybe I should, or at least want to. More to come tomorrow...... Peace, Vanessa

[NathanATX]

As a friend of mine says...

"A little of column A and a little of column B" :love:

[Emproph]

Could you repeat the question?

[Emproph]

I may very well agree that “God made us” in the way that you mean, but I disagree with the way the question is posed and the explanations given for each option.

I realize there’s a directional input there worthy of distinction and it seems that you’re looking to establish that before imparting new and heavy knowledge.

Of course a sentient organized Being of unimaginable Power is in charge, I call it Love. But I have no problem with Oneness or “the All” of definition B, and your description of definition A.

For me, definition B would start after “the All” part. At that point God is contingent upon the illusions of it’s creation(s). And at that point the question may as well be, do you believe in God or not, making the question moot.

More definitions and distinctions need to be made. Could you define we, and then us, and then God, within the context of ONE. I could, but I’m not sure which essay would be most effective.

Even the directional flow of God creating me/us goes back to creating who God itself considers itself to be. That’s the point of oneness as we know it. You can’t know that you’re all one without also knowing that you’re separate. And thus there is light, via awareness of the darkness.

Our particular part of creation/separateness I believe was designed to teach that specifically. How to recognize being, and respond, as the Godhead would, by overcoming the illusions of separateness in the strongest and most bindingly “evil” circumstances/situations imaginable. How else to be innoculated from that for the "rest" of eternity?

So my answer, at this point, is C, the question itself is perpetual. Is God’s creation of our illusion of separateness itself an illusion? Or am I allowing myself to be deluded into believing such a conundrum exists? Who am I, or am I who am?

(I’m losing myself here, was that redundant? :o :agree: :disagree: :confused:)

It's a legitimate question. For me though it needs to be refined. It's not either. Especially for us. It's both all the time. To the extent that God is us, then so is God confused, But God has no Fear, thus God is not afraid of being our confusion and fear. There is no difference is the ultimate answer. But I think you're leading to something Way Huger that you think we're not getting as well as we could be.

The word “make” implies change. Obviously there’s change, and from our “time” perspective this is a legitimate outlook. But from the Godhead perspective, for me the question becomes more along the lines of how does an unchanging/eternal/infinte God perceive change/time.

I’m rambling I know and I’m going to give it a "rest." (< see how godlike I am already?), but I’ve been mulling on this for the past day and this is the best I can do with it.

God creates us to create more of it, but there’s never any separation in the process. Jesus is proof of this, even if he’s not real, the fact that the story exists is proof. (for the record I do believe he’s real, NOT because of the Bible though, (did you have an NDE?))

So the question would be, which part of infinitely perpetually increasing God discovered how to create, or discover perpetually MORE of itself, and what is the nature of that ideal characteristic?

I say the ideal answer is the conundrum of pursuing the perpetual question. The shark eating it’s tail (no, not the snake, I like the shark better)... :D

I think that's what the Earth was made for. To hone that conundrum to its most productive level(s).

And for all of your efforts (anyone who got this far), here’s Delicious Surprise. There’s a commercial (deal with it :tup:), and you can't put in full screen, but it’s in stereo, clear, and And Crank It Up!! This is what we’re made of!

Click on “Delicious Surprise. (I believe it)” (http://www.cmt.com/artists/az/messina_jo_dee/artist.jhtml) (4th one down.)

[dewdrop_world]

I think it's also worth injecting the Buddhist perspective here.

In one of the sutras, dukkha (the inescapable condition of suffering) is compared to being struck with an arrow. If you have an arrow sticking out of your thigh, what do you do? You focus your efforts on taking it out and healing the wound.

If someone gets hit with an arrow and looks at it and begins to wonder, "What is this object? Who made it? Where did it come from? Why did it hit me? Does it mean something? Is it carrying a message?" -- any reasonable bystander would say, shut up, hold still, and pull out the damn arrow! (Or let me help you -- but in spiritual life, only you can pull out your own arrow.) Stop the bleeding first.

I am suffering... "What is God? Does God exist? Is God an entity, or the sum totality of being? Did God make us, or do we make God?"

Do these questions help cut to the root of suffering?

James

[awediot]

Emproph, you are your biggest fan and own worst enemy, make grand, arching observations only to chew them up and spit them back in your own face... My agreements with you are anticipated and deflected, my criticisms are already highlighted for me and improved in the next sentence. This is a booby-trapped, unapproachable wall of brilliance as well as a treacherous, bottomless pit with a Jolly Rancher poised precariously at its edge...

What if you were suddenly not your own?
Aside from believing I'm not my own already, I think I'd be You.

I think it's also worth injecting the Buddhist perspective here.

You mean it hasn't been?

In one of the sutras, dukkha (the inescapable condition of suffering) is compared to being struck with an arrow. If you have an arrow sticking out of your thigh, what do you do? You focus your efforts on taking it out and healing the wound.
If someone gets hit with an arrow and looks at it and begins to wonder, "What is this object? Who made it? Where did it come from? Why did it hit me? Does it mean something? Is it carrying a message?" -- any reasonable bystander would say, shut up, hold still, and pull out the damn arrow! (Or let me help you -- but in spiritual life, only you can pull out your own arrow.) Stop the bleeding first.
I am suffering... "What is God? Does God exist? Is God an entity, or the sum totality of being? Did God make us, or do we make God?"
Do these questions help cut to the root of suffering?

So, pull out the damn arrow, a little disinfectant and bandage it up... then ask who shot you, why and what can be done not to get shot again... And, yes, for myself, these question are at the root of suffering. What do you ask, or is it all about refining suffering itself? What are your healing questions?

[Emproph]

What are your healing questions? How do I not fear fear itself?

[awediot]

How do I not fear fear itself?

Easy. Eliminate all danger.

[Daniel]

I guess the logical question would be: how does one do that? That is, eliminate all danger?

[awediot]

...and the obvious, bummer of an answer: You Can't eliminate all danger (even a padded room and bubble wrap jammies in an earthquake could crumble and smother). So, own your fear (though not that one). Use it for the insightful bodyguard and soul shield it was intended to be. Sort out the logical and meaningful ones from the implanted and defeating, but conquer them after the threat, not the other way around... Just a suggestion.

[Zerbie]

if you are master over your fear, you can be in fear without being afraid. You are feeling fear, but it doesn't frighten you.

Not long ago, I was terrified, and completely calm and joyous at the self-same moment. I was having a fear I wasn't feeling. Or, I was feeling a fear I was not having.

it's one thing I have not been able to put over in words. Tried to convey it to others and they tell me they're sorry and hug me. No- I'm GLAD!

[Daniel]

Suggestion well taken Awe. In other words, if you live in California on a fault line, the 'reasonable fear' of the walls crashing leads one to reinforce the house.

Emproph's post bring to mind those famous words of Roosevelt, uttered during his first inaugural address in 1933 in the midst of the great depression: " So, first of all, let me assert my firm belief that the only thing we have to fear is fear itself—nameless, unreasoning, unjustified terror which paralyzes needed efforts to convert retreat into advance."

How does one not fear fear itself? I would answer, with Roosevelt's nudging: through action. One might posit that there are two kinds of action or response to fear. In one, you brace up your house when you think about it falling down in that earthquake. In the other, you learn to quiet your mind before it leads you to do something you regret- that is- when you take an action based on a projection (oh dear...I've slipped into pyschology!) The latter kind, I could venture, leads to insane 'actions' like Preemption.

[Vortex]

Instead of trying to consciously reject fear or building up walls or barriers to protect ourselves from fear why not embrace it? Is not all fear rooted in ignorance? Then how is one to gain any understanding of this thing we call fear if we are always running away from it?

We all have our dark places, we all have our fears. Do not reject them for they are apart of us, to know ones fears fully is to gain great insight into the self, and knowing oneself I believe is the beginning of wisdom.

How will you know the ‘Light’ when it comes, if you have not truly known darkness?



if you are master over your fear, you can be in fear without being afraid. You are feeling fear, but it doesn't frighten you.

I see someone is making progress. :)

[Daniel]

Instead of trying to consciously reject fear or building up walls or barriers to protect ourselves from fear why not embrace it? Is not all fear rooted in ignorance? Then how is one to gain any understanding of this thing we call fear if we are always running away from it?

I'll buy what you're selling here. But I'd like a little more info on how to use the product.

[Zerbie]

If I may, Daniel, my spin on what Vortex has supplied is that it's a matter of awareness practice, like everything else.

Kind of like the second idea you listed earlier - quiet your mind and observe it, rather than immediately react to it.

Lately, I have observed fear that is here with me, or you might say, "in" me (I'm not entirely sure which) and I do not experience it currently, I feel it without feeling it. I am not compelled to react to it. It's just there. And I am not frightened to feel it. Really can't express it any better. Sorry.:(

Just a matter of keeping up one's practice.

Perhaps Vortex will clarify? Rather than let me completely twist the meaning. :p

Anyway, thanks Vortex, ya made me chuckle, too. Yeah, I'd say there's some progress goin' on here. :cool: Where are *you* learning all this stuff? You've acquired some significant understanding. It's wonderful to read your posts. :)

[Vortex]

I'll buy what you're selling here. But I'd like a little more info on how to use the product.

:lol: Your brilliant use of metaphor has inspired me, so I submit the following…


The product being sold here is your own self discovery. I’m not sure anyone is more equipped at using this product than yourself. You already have the instruction manual so use it.

I’m merely suggesting a path. I cannot walk the path with you, I cannot tell you what you’ll see along the way, I cannot even guarantee you’ll make it back. If you do get lost though, just look for that light that binds us all together. The light bright enough to lead us out of any darkness.

P.S. Oh and I cannot be held liable for any personal demons you may dig up along the way. ;)

[Daniel]

The product being sold here is your own self discovery. I’m not sure anyone is more equipped at using this product than yourself. You already have the instruction manual so use it.

Manual! They gave out a manual? Must'a misplaced mine somewhere. Oh.....let me see....yeah....I think I found it...stuffed behind my heart.

I’m merely suggesting a path. I cannot walk the path with you, I cannot tell you what you’ll see along the way, I cannot even guarantee you’ll make it back. If you do get lost though, just look for that light that binds us all together. The light bright enough to lead us out of any darkness.

Flashlights! Huh! They gave those out too?! Jeez! Where do you guys get all the good stuff? Oh...Oh....wait....I think I found it....Dang! The batteries are dead!

P.S. Oh and I cannot be held liable for any personal demons you may dig up along the way. ;)

Shovels? We need shovels? What? What's that I see? Ahhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I can return this stuff, right?

[Vortex]

Anyway, thanks Vortex, ya made me chuckle, too. Yeah, I'd say there's some progress goin' on here. :cool: Where are *you* learning all this stuff? You've acquired some significant understanding. It's wonderful to read your posts. :)


Mostly from just self observation. I try not to read too many books or subscribe to any experts when it comes to human insight, unless I’m just interested in their opinion. It kind of saps our own creativity if we’re just repeating other people’s conclusions. We human beings are far too impressionable. Many people will spend their whole life studying other people to try and gain insight into human behavior, but can you ever know another person more than yourself?

Anyway that's just my path, and there are no absolutes when it comes to paths in life. My path may not necessarily be your own, even if we are both looking for the same thing. We can still arrive at the same place, just from different directions. :)

You are your own greatest insight into the nature of humanity.

[Zerbie]

Omigosh Daniel, ROLFMAO!

:lol:

[Daniel]

Hey Vortex- not making fun of you, ok? Rather, the thought occurred to me that fear can be so terrifying that one's only option at times is to laugh right in its face. I buy everything your saying.

[Daniel]

Omigosh Daniel, ROLFMAO!

:lol:

What the heck is ROLFMAO? Mao getting a massage? Seriously. I haven't a clue.

[Vortex]

I’m merely suggesting a path. I cannot walk the path with you, I cannot tell you what you’ll see along the way, I cannot even guarantee you’ll make it back. If you do get lost though, just look for that light that binds us all together. The light bright enough to lead us out of any darkness.

Flashlights! Huh! They gave those out too?! Jeez! Where do you guys get all the good stuff? Oh...Oh....wait....I think I found it....Dang! The batteries are dead!


:lol: Actually I use light as a metaphor for Love, but flashlight is pretty close.

[Vortex]

Hey Vortex- not making fun of you, ok? Rather, the thought occurred to me that fear can be so terrifying that one's only option at times is to laugh right in its face. I buy everything your saying.


Trying not to sound too chliche but, when our fears are so overwhelming

Sometimes we have to laugh, to keep from crying.

[Daniel]

Trying not to sound too chliche but, when our fears are so overwhelming

Sometimes we have to laugh, to keep from crying.


So true...so true.....interestingly, I've noticed (seeing that I teach singing- Zerbie will know exactly when I mean here) that when things really get going the two expressions- laughing and crying- look weirdly similar. There's that moment when you almost don't know which way it's going to go.

[Vortex]

What the heck is ROLFMAO? Mao getting a massage? Seriously. I haven't a clue.

I think she meant ROFLMAO, if you still can't figure it out, it'll give you something to sleep on. Of course if it keeps you up you can always just google it. :lol:

[Daniel]

Gee Vortex. What a difference a letter makes! Library Rat that I am, I tried to google ROLFMAO and got nothing I could make any sense of, but ROFLMAO? Well...that's an entirely different matter. Guess this goes to show that, in spiritual matters, as well as words, the devil is in the details.

PS- Shhh! Don't tell Zerbie her inner dyslexic made a solo appearance.

[Zerbie]

BWAAHHAAAhaaaaaa!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Omigod you guys! I just laughed myself into convulsions here over "ROLF-MAO"!!!!!!!!!!! *$#!:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

And yes, I meant ROFLMAO. :D ROFLMAO again and again this morning. Omigosh! :lol:

I am laughing so hard it feels like I am swallowing my own nose.

Y'know sometimes I think I am undiagnosed dsylexic. I reverse words all the time. Especially when reading aloud, sentences come out with word-order all inverted, but it always ends up being grammatically correct no matter what I've done to it. Like, it comes out in German word order, or like Yoda, or somethin'. And I just had to edit out a TON of reversed letters in this note I am typing here. . . .sigh.

[Zerbie]

Mostly from just self observation. I try not to read too many books or subscribe to any experts when it comes to human insight, unless I’m just interested in their opinion. It kind of saps our own creativity if we’re just repeating other people’s conclusions. We human beings are far too impressionable. Many people will spend their whole life studying other people to try and gain insight into human behavior, but can you ever know another person more than yourself?

Anyway that's just my path, and there are no absolutes when it comes to paths in life. My path may not necessarily be your own, even if we are both looking for the same thing. We can still arrive at the same place, just from different directions. :)

You are your own greatest insight into the nature of humanity.

Geez Vortex, who are you? Who is this masked stranger?! (You don't have to tell us, I'm playing. ;) )

You're great! :D

[Jennifer5]

This is great hearing what everyone is saying.. Vortex, I don'tknow where you get this but it's amazing.

I haven't had much time to post... but I'm loving just getting to read along and see what you all have to say.:)