Ghandi Or King, Were They Essential ???

[Liberal Crozier]

The Soulforce logo suggests that Mathatma Ghandi and Martin Luther King, Jr. represent the two very successful freedom movements where the principle of non-violent confrontation to injustice, bigotry and hatred transformed the world. Although the Hindu and Christian faiths informed them individually, the latter gained sustenance and mentoring from a man who died a decade before he began his own pilgrimage.

Yes, the Indian Congress and the decades'-long struggle to obtain Indian independence had many prominent leaders. Nehru for the Hindus and Muslim leaders who betrayed his vision, and created Pakistan ( later Pakistan and Bangladesh) as well, were but many who found that one man - Ghandi - became the voice and more, embodied the movement to unravel the jewel in the crown of the British Empire.

True, the attempt to secure justice and the promise of America for African-Americans did not begin with the Reverend Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. There were many important men and women whose names still roll of the tongue where the story of the Civil Rights Movement is told. Fear of neglecting anyone, great or small, makes me wary to list any if not all of them.

Yet, and no one should doubt this, it was not until Dr. King became synonymous with the civil rights movement did the incremental victories culminate with the laws that changed the moral reality of a nation.

Were King and Ghandi essential? Could both those goals, indeed our goals, or the goals of other human rights struggles, ever successfully obtained without having a recognisable leader whom all contingents accept as uniquely representative of the minority community seeking justice ? Cry the Beloved Country and apartheid saw many heroes and victims, yet who would doubt that it is Nelson Mendela who is the one body and voice who coalesced the effort to victory?

Must the Mt. Rushmore logo include yet another leader to emerge as the person whom represents the struggle? How did Dr. King or Ghandi or Mandela become those persons among the many who led their movements?

My question is certainly seeking the ideas of all my brothers and sisters, but it is more than rhetorical for me. I TRULY AM CONVINCED THAT THE LGBT MOVEMENT IN THE USA HISTORICALLY AND CULTURALLY REQUIRES THE EMERGENCE OF A CONSENSUS INDIVIDUAL WHO WILL LEAD THE LGBT INTO THE PROMISED LAND OF EQUALITY AND JUSTICE FOR ALL.

It should be noted that although King, Ghandi and Mandela were associated with spiritual and political organisations, their influence and leadership were identified as separate from the Indian National Congress or African National Party or the Democratic Party. It is not that these organisations did not play their part, but these three men's contribution transcended those instruments.

[Liberal Crozier]

Good evening - this is Spouse. Liberal and I and our son are having a family evening of eating, loving and living with each others. Have a wonderful evening and thank you for being such an important part of our extended family. Love toall:love: :love: :love:

[Mia14]

I don't know if our movement will ever have just one nationally recognized leader. I guess only the future will tell. I do believe that Soulforce will become synonymous with the GLBT rights revolution. I think we're on the right track.

[Zerbie]

I wonder the same thing, and have wondered it since I was 6 or 7 years old.

One advantage of such an eminent leader would be to take all the separate and floundering movements and unify them under one Weltnschauung, and then delegate from there. In other words, organization. The far right takes it's dictates from one or two leaders (eg Rove, Dobson) and many followers follow those goals to the chosen outcome. The left, er, no. We are a bunch of scattered disorganized free-thinkers, and we lack the organization, therefore the communication and follow-through to get things done, that the far right has.

I am so disenchanted with most of the established LGBT organizations. Nonetheless, I donate $ to them, and am on every volunteer list I can get on to work for them. But something much better HAS TO emerge or we will never see the social equality we hope for.

[Liberal Crozier]

Mia -

The common denominator with all three leaders, Ghandi, King and Mandela, were that they were reluctant to become the "lightning rod" around which a movement would gravitate all its diverse personalities, strategems and agendas.

And yet, Mia, unless and until there is - and maybe with us, a man and a woman, who lead our people under bondage to the imagery and reality of freedom, the opponents will continue to marginalise and divide the various voices.

I agree that Soulforce's Dr. Melvin White would be an excellent national leader around which many divergent voices could gather around. No one has the familiarity with the Opponent Leaders as he does. No one has the charisma that he has. No one better understands that this is both a spiritual as well as a secular cultural "war" that must be fought in the ethos of non-violent but zealous confrontation.

Aside from reluctance, Ghandi, King and Mandela all felt that other voices could more effectively coalesce such an important movement as theirs. The truth, however, was that a reflection upon other men or women in their movement - Indian Independence, African-American Civil Rights, or the end of Apartheid and a Rainbow government in South Africa, no one but those three men could have achieved the goals as they did.

I truly believe and pray for the Holy Spirit to motivate those myriad voices in our movement to seek and call such a man to lead the movement for LGBT rights in your country - which has the potential to become again that beacon of liberty and justice for all.

[Liberal Crozier]

This is Spouse - Crozier and our son are fast asleep and I just finished cleaning up from our home play snack. It is difficult to find something that appeals to him with those skewered taste buds due to chemotherapy. He never complains, and it is a joy to see him interacting with us despite what I know and realise is intense nausea on a 24/7 basis.

[LGBT FLIGHT ATTENDANT]

I never seem to have the time, or know exactly where I am:lol: in order to more than just read your and Crozier's posts.

My memory of he and his family is memorable. I cannot imagine such a vibrant human being suffering from the advanced cancer that he is afflicted with.

I agree with him that the US cultural reality is that every minority who have won rights had a standardbearer to both coalesce and to create unity within a diversity that defines all minorities. Other voices other than Ghandi or King or Mandela were involved in and were leaders in their causes, but they still became the voice and the shape that defined their struggles.

I am glad that many are now responding and not merely reading his views. I am sure that he appreciates the feedback as well as prayers for his recovery.

[Liberal Crozier]

My dear FA -

I believe that I remember your name, and will return the anonymity with kindness:lol: :lol: .

I also know that you are very kind to comment upon all of my thread postings. I am afraid that I have all too much time on medical leave when I am even somewhat well.:(

However, at all times, and even in the least pleasurable, I am grateful to the Lord for the opportunity to cure this disease, if it be His will. God knows that this is my prayer, and my oncologist's "assurance".

Our son also remembers that huge banana split that you served him. Huge even for my standards - and even though he could only consume his normal intake, you may remember that we both " helped him out" with it.

Sometimes, when my taste buds are problematic, vanilla ice cream, a banana and chocolate or hot fudge topping is just the ticket.

My prayers are for health, safety in air and on the ground, and love and happiness. You certainly are worthy of it.

[LGBT FLIGHT ATTENDANT]

I appreciated your offline communication and know that I understand your need to lessen all stress during this time of life-threatening illness.

Please be assured that I care for all three of you.

[morningrob]

This is an intersting post- I both agree and disagree with the idea that King was a consensus candidate. My understanding is that King had his leadership challenged throughout his whole career within the Civil rights movement, perhaps Montgomery was the only exception. Malcolm X, Stokey Carmichael, and others all beleived that King was doing this or that wrong and challenged his decisions both privately and publicly.

Now after saying that, we celebrate Martin Luther King Day and not somebosy else. Yet you do not see too many T-shirts with King's face on it, but you do see many with Malcolm. If we use Malcolm X's analysis, he says that King is not the right choice but the white choice. But on the other hand, we all know what King looked like standing in front of the Lincoln memorial speaking to the country. Though, towards the end of his life, King was called irresponsible by the mainstream media.

My point is how much of our understanding of King is looking back on the civil rights movement. Is King important or the organization he built around him that allowed King to be "King"? What if King was never shot and he continued his analysis of the multiple interconnected oppressions of violence, race and class? Would he be remembered as the great civil rights leader or would he have become a once influential who became too radical for his own good?

Also, could it have just been luck? What was it that made things come together at the right time to allow for the civil rights movement to burst on the scene. Let's go with Montgomery for a second. Others were arrested before Rosa Parks for sitting in the wrong place on the bus, but why Rosa? Also if you look at the pre-history of the Montgomery bus boycott, it started not with King and the rest of his fellow ministers but by the church women of Montgomery who were going to start the bus boycott but went to thier ministers because they were the traditional leaders of the community.

The question that is being raised is one that has been asked for ages. Is what is important the leader or those who follow? Not only is the leader who has the vision important but also those who allow the leader to lead.
The main point I would like to make is that maybe the leader is out, maybe the leader is one of us- but is anybody willing to follow and can that leader provide the vision to hold the different parts together that any movement has?

[Jamie McDaniel]

What if King was never shot and he continued his analysis of the multiple interconnected oppressions of violence, race and class? Would he be remembered as the great civil rights leader or would he have become a once influential who became too radical for his own good?
This is a great question. People who study King soon discover that his radical side came to the surface during the last few years of his life. And since his life was cut short, this question deserves real consideration. I tend to think King was stepping into his destiny to be a prophet. And prophetic people who speak out about larger issues of justice never enjoy widespread support.

Considering who quotes King these days, I'm quite concerned that his radical side is being lost. That is why I feel strongly that progressive Americans need to take time to really study King, especially progressive Christians. Here we have a national holiday honoring a preacher, and a Baptist preacher no less! Given the hold that Dr. King's memory has on America, progressives cannot afford to not leverage that. When a conservative Republican quotes King, we need to make sure they know about King being a liberal minister. If they sincerely admire King, perhaps they will study him and experience a change of heart and mind.

[LGBT FLIGHT ATTENDANT]

.....the Rev. Bernice King, daughter of MLK who has allied herself with the most strident black and white right wingers.

.......I remember the funeral of Mrs. MLK Jr. where Bernice stood and spoke in stark contrast to her late mother and siblings.

[NathanATX]

.....the Rev. Bernice King, daughter of MLK who has allied herself with the most strident black and white right wingers.

.......I remember the funeral of Mrs. MLK Jr. where Bernice stood and spoke in stark contrast to her late mother and siblings.

I think we have all family members who disagree with us. It's unfortunate that Bernice has bought into fundamentalism and uses her father's memory to promote it... but she clearly doesn't speak with the same prophetic voice of her father.

[Vanessa White]

morningrob: You make an excellent point. I do agree that to have one particular leader, or group of leaders, could assist with organizing and solidifying the movement, and have a specific person to identify the movement with. However, it is also the followers that bear great importance, US. Even if we have a representative, we as the followers have to be willing to follow, and able to organize ourselves in the name of the cause, have our strategies be firmly in place, work together, etc. I think Soulforce as a group could be a great starting ground or that. The Equality Rides certainly began the journey, of organizing an activity and then following it through, and then creating plans for the next venture. In order for me to be a follower myself, I believe that I have to know that the leader is speaking in a consistent manner about what it is I think we need to focus on and be about, but also a person, any gender, that will represent our needs effectively and firmly, but not resort to angry, personal barbs toward our opposers. Someone who wants to make peace with others, not conflict.

[LGBT FLIGHT ATTENDANT]

I think that you have just defined the Reverend Doctor Melvin White.

[Vanessa White]

Totally cool!!!!!!!!

[Liberal Crozier]

It seems that Zerbie and we are persons who feel that all celebrated civil and human rights victories have had many leaders, but one whom seems to coalesce and unify and clarify the movement for the media and others interested in what the leadership feels, thinks and eventually acts upon.

In secular war, and in global war, the most effective military tactic is an allied supreme commander. We had them in the two major wars in the 20th century, and even one each in both theatres of war in the last one. We believe that the need for a Ghandi, King or Mandela is part of the global culture and hard-wired sociologically.

MORE, OUR ENEMIES SEEM TO KNOW, UNDERSTAND, AND USE THIS TACTIC.
The Churches always dealt with " the homosexual and his/her behaviour on an INDIVIDUAL basis....a sole sinner in need of redemption....and their first goal was to deny any right for individuals to coalesce as an organisation....say Dignity or Integrity in your country....and their first victory was to remove those groups to be officially recognised - or have the right to use church property or for priests in canonical service to administer any sacraments, or to honour their coupling relationships in any fashion whatsoever.

Every so often, I see that Dr. White, Jeff Lutes and other leaders of Soulforce come to read the posts. We know this because this is one of the BEST websites that I have ever seen in terms of shared information.

I do not know if Dr. White or Mr. Lutes ever contribute or more, engage in thread discussions. We are new, and maybe it has happened prior to our contributions ??????

[tdogg]

One of the major reasons for the 'success' of the extremist right-wingers, is that while they may have a handful of 'leaders' and not just one who stands out, they are well organized, planned and are all on the same page (so to speak).

I do believe, if we GLBTs had a significant leader (or handful of leaders as above), it would lend to organized, planned thoughts, goals, actions - what we need to pull off real victory. It seems to be the main think lacking in our efforts toward equality.

From what I've read of Dr. White (his book, information on the web, ideas, etc.), I believe he could be the one to lead us into the next realm of battle. If he has the will, time, resources, interest in being our 'leader'. We definitely need one - the followers are a vital part of this, as they will closely follow the leader and work towards the common goal, and eventually one or more will take over the lead when necessary. It's like business, the supervisor/manager (leader) provides a way for the rank and file (followers) to do the work and reach the goal (well, ok in a perfect work environment!).

We need brainstorming, organization, planning, outlining of common goals and how to reach them, back-up plans, and then people willing to put themselves out on the line and do what we need to do.

[Liberal Crozier]

It is Greek for worthy, for when a Greek Orthodox bishops ordains a deacon or priest, he turns to the communicants who are standing or sitting in the cathedral, and the people cry AXIOS.....To our opponents would come the word ANAXIOS, or the opposite.....

MELVIN WHITE, SERVANT OF GOD AND PASTOR OF SOULS
AND A LEADER - AXIOS......LET HIM BE CALLED AXIOS.