Conflicted gay/bi/questioning people - what do you wish you could say to them?

[Zerbie]

From what I've been following both on the 'net, and in some recent 3D conversations, I am feeling more and more concerned and hurt for those gay/bi/questioning people who are living in that grey area in between us activists on the one hand, and the anti-gay/ex-gay forces on the other.

I wish things would be calm enough socially that people could be allowed to come to terms with their feelings, their sexuality in their own time, safely, without suffering. But it doesn't seem to be that way.

I've heard of people walking out on their partners of many years to join ex-gay ministries/therapies. It makes me wonder what they were experiencing all the years they were in the relationship, that after all that time they still feel there is something wrong with them. What do you make of it? What would you say to those people if you had the chance to sit and talk with them?

When I first got involved in activism, a gay friend took me aside and told me to stop it. He said he tried to be "normal" and "failed," and that getting involved in this stuff would ruin my life. "Don't throw your life away over people like me. We aren't worth it." After a couple of statements like that from him, I stopped arguing and my stomach was sick for hours. If you had been the one he said that to, what would you say in response?

[BruceChris]

(But I would be awful at it. I think I'm at least a little better as a speach writer.)

Pretty much the same thing that I would like to say to most people about sex and sexuality. That my sexuality and yours, in whatever form they may take are a beautiful gift from God/dess. That sex is usually private and personal, but that sex is not dirty. That I do not believe that all of the fear, guilt and shame that we have grown up with surrounding sex is anything that God would have wished upon us. That it is a worthy and honorable goal to work on learning more about your own sexuality, accepting it, and finding joy, beauty, and self-esteem in it. That perhaps when they get a chance to meet people with similar sexualities, they may begin to like and admire them, maybe begin to see them as role models. That they have undoubtedly learned their attitudes from people who have a fear-based belief system that leads them to teach fear to others, but that it doesn't have to be that way. The happiest and healthiest people out there have learned to seek out and practice a love-based sytem. That they might be wise to seek out such people, and learn from them.:love: :love: :love: :love: :love: :love: :love: :love: :love:

I would have to know the person, to try to tell them what they most needed to hear.

I may come back and edit this sometime. I like to edit my posts, and frequently do. I don't always get it right the first time.

Peace and Love, BruceChris

[Zerbie]

Thank you for responding Chris. Your post is beautiful, there is no need to edit it.

:love:

I posted this question because something recent in a 3D conversation prompted me to mull the matter over again, and so I wanted to hear from others. Especially those who have been there and come to a place of peace with their sexuality after suffering feelings of internal homophobia.

You may have hit upon something very important, Chris, with the role-modeling aspect.

[nowvoyager]

You may have hit upon something very important, Chris, with the role-modeling aspect.
One of my favourite quotes is from our beloved Gandhi - "Be the change you wish to see in this world". I take this to mean that if I role model great behaviour, positive sexuality, and a dignified same-sex relationship, then I can be a positive influence on the homophobic and the internally homophobic. HOWEVER, sometimes that's not easy. Firstly, I aint perfect, alas :o :), and that means some days I'm cranky or shy or fearful. And secondly sometimes it doesn't feel BIG enough - sometimes I crave an activist "Seize The Day" moment at odds with living a quiet message. I think that can happen when you have an opportunity to tell someone the kind of words that BruceChris says, which I thought terrific.

The other thing I was thinking, about internalised homophobia, is that I don't think it's a one off struggle and then you're healed. I'm well adjusted and actualised about my own sexuality, but negative feelings about it can creep up on me sometimes. When we live in a society where large groups of people think we're disgusting, and where our media-soaked imagery is almost always heterosexual, it's inevitable (kinda like having one of those bad body-image days when we're surrounded by thin-ness). When it does rear its ugly head, I pray, go out with GLBT friends, rent a positive movie. Or come here!! :D

I'd like to see positive out-and-proud people talk about this issue more in our communities, to reduce the impact and seriousness of IH before people leave families to participate in wicked ex-gay therapies. In which case I commend and thank you for starting the thread, darling Zerbie :). Do others think IH strikes even the most activist-types out there?

[ProudGay40]

I had to get past before I could be a free man. That one thing was no caring what others close to me (and not close, society as a whole) think of me. I knew livng my true self and true life would mean that some would reject me or talk about me or condem me but before I came out I had to mentally decided that I would not hear, listen, care about what others thought or said about me. I became strong then. Strong to say this is me, I know God loves me and I want to live a happy loving life being gay and true to myself and true to others. It was a LONG road to get to that point for me and at times I still get a little bothered by others and thier beliefs and words but I fordge ahead living openly and proud and working to make it better for others who are in thier own struggles.

[SolApollo]

ProudGay40: I agree and understand your message. I, too (as many of us in the LGBT community), have dealt w/ my own internalized homophobia. My culture, a midwestern conservative background, told me to fear and hate LGBT people. Therefore, I hated myself a long time before finding peace and inner acceptance. Hence, my current activism.

Like you, it took me a long time too, but we all LGBT can get through these wilderness experiences - to help ourselves and others hurting too. Our strength can renew others. Like in Isaiah, "on the wings of eagles...I will not grow weary...the Lord sustains me" (paraphrased).

Peace
Sol

[NathanATX]

When I first got involved in activism, a gay friend took me aside and told me to stop it. He said he tried to be "normal" and "failed," and that getting involved in this stuff would ruin my life. "Don't throw your life away over people like me. We aren't worth it." After a couple of statements like that from him, I stopped arguing and my stomach was sick for hours. If you had been the one he said that to, what would you say in response?

Have you seen "Good Will Hunting" where Robin Williams holds Matt Damon as he breaks down?

The way I "hear" what that guy said... is that he's very close to breaking down like that. I would probably push him a little and then become a broken record of "I love you. You are important to me. God loves you. You are important to God. I love you...." And I would hold him until the tears dried and his breathing calmed...

[Zerbie]

Have you seen "Good Will Hunting" where Robin Williams holds Matt Damon as he breaks down?

The way I "hear" what that guy said... is that he's very close to breaking down like that. I would probably push him a little and then become a broken record of "I love you. You are important to me. God loves you. You are important to God. I love you...." And I would hold him until the tears dried and his breathing calmed...

Wow. Would I had been in a stronger place when that conversation happened - it was eleven years ago. I was unsure of myself in every way back then. If he said that now, I would contradict the "not worth it" statements. I can do that now. I couldn't then.

What happened 11 years ago was that he grabbed both my arms, gave me a very stern look, and he ordered me to promise I would get out of activism. I told I would "think about it some more." He tightened his grip on my arms til it hurt (he was a much larger person so I had to let him) and told me he would not let go til I promised to drop the activism.

We would both still be standing there today, I suppose, if I hadn't "promised," but of course I didn't mean it. I left that conversation 100% committed to LGBT activism in large part BECAUSE of his reaction. When he later found out that I hadn't quit activism, he quit me, which was painful because he was a mentor-figure in my young life as a singer. He never spoke a word to me again. I sometimes wonder what his path has been since.

[NathanATX]

Wow. Would I had been in a stronger place when that conversation happened - it was eleven years ago. I was unsure of myself in every way back then. If he said that now, I would contradict the "not worth it" statements. I can do that now. I couldn't then.

What happened 11 years ago was that he grabbed both my arms, gave me a very stern look, and he ordered me to promise I would get out of activism. I told I would "think about it some more." He tightened his grip on my arms til it hurt (he was a much larger person so I had to let him) and told me he would not let go til I promised to drop the activism.

We would both still be standing there today, I suppose, if I hadn't "promised," but of course I didn't mean it. I left that conversation 100% committed to LGBT activism in large part BECAUSE of his reaction. When he later found out that I hadn't quit activism, he quit me, which was painful because he was a mentor-figure in my young life as a singer. He never spoke a word to me again. I sometimes wonder what his path has been since.

Man... this guy was pretty intense. My reaction to someone like him 11 years ago would have been very similar to yours.

[Zerbie]

Want to respond to everyone and say - Thank you - Keep 'em comin'!!!

Voyager, I love what you had to say. I believe living as a quiet example is the strongest, wisest, most powerful thing one can do. Because it is so quiet, you don't get to see any of the ripples it sends out into the world, so you wonder if there ARE any. . . there are.

Does internal homophobia strike everyone? At times perhaps. Years ago my buddies and I came up with the phrase, "the 3 a.m. doubts" to refer to internal homophobia striking at a vulnerable moment when you question things like, how does being LGBT impact my relationship with God? etc.

But I think it's more a case of doubting the impact of your actions than a case of IH when it comes to the activist. Speaking from my own experience, the last traces of IH was wiped out in one swoop from an amazing spiritual experience a number of years ago. I never doubt that anymore, faith consumes the space so thoroughly there isn't room to squeeze a piece of doubt into. Otoh, ALL the time I question whether I am doing any good floundering about activism, am I wasting my time lobbying, I am annoying my friends by approaching them and asking them to vote this way or that way, is what I am doing right? Am I becoming an ideologue blinded by causes? Yet I believe it's healthy to question and evaluate actions, strategies, ways of relating.

It becomes unhealthy if you question your intrinsic worth. Or God's love for you. You're there. That's all the evidence you need that God wants you here. If he didn't want you, you wouldn't be here. All the rest is verbal fencing, we win one, they win one. New challenge? Let's start all over. . .and there is no end to that.

Hello to 40!!! Getting past the point of caring what others (even strangers !) is a necessary step if you are to be psychologically free. There are plenty of people out there who never get to that step. They find the IDEA of rejection too painful. That makes me feel sad. The way I see it, why SHOULD we care what others think? It can be frustrating if you have to deal with someone on a regular basis who has utterly missed the mark on what you're about, but you can't control that. You have to consider the source. What's amazing is when people you respect, admire, and like also like to be around you. That's the best! But I don't believe you can quite get there if you are trying to hide who you are in order to garner approval from "society."

[SBP]

I would tell them that they ARE "normal". Despite the almost constant barrage of misinformation from those whose myopic views of the world are threatened by anything and everything even remotely different from what they are "comfortable" with. Human sexuality, like everything in nature can be applied to the so-called "Bell Curve". Its expression ranges from 1-10, with less than 2% being at the extreme ends and the 96% falling somewhere in between.

As for the stopping the activism because "people like me aren't worth it", I feel a bottomless well of sadness that he feels that way. It shows that he has a very low opinion of his own worth. Because you know what? We are ALL worth it~!!! And beyond that, we often have the tendency to look at what we do NOW as only for our own benefits. Not so! In fact, we may or may NOT see much tangible benefit from this struggle in the short term. The reason we continue to "fight the good fight", is for those who will follow us. All of the progress we enjoy today, despite the distance we have yet to go, we do so because those that went before US paid the price through their determination that the status quo should not remain so. Remember Stonewall people!

Lastly, we live in a world where there is so little love. It should never be discouraged. Love is strengthened by adversity, not destroyed by it! Never forget that! Love is NEVER....EVER....wrong~!!! :)

Peace 2 U All~

[Vortex]

That’s what if feels like sometimes, when fate seems to be pulling you in every direction. Every direction that is except your own. Sometimes you are that bold, charismatic and prophetic leader fighting the good fight, sacrificing all for something greater than yourself. Other times though you want nothing to do with that image of what could be, you are reminded that you’re still that scared little kid, always crying, robbed of innocence, and afraid of his own shadow. Most of the time though you are who ‘they’ want you to be, society that is. If they want conformity, you conform yourself. If they want simplicity, you simplify yourself. And if they want boys to think only of girls and vice versa.

Its okay brother they tell me, you don’t have to live by societies rules. Don’t be afraid to die for what you believe in. Afraid to die, maybe, but I can think of greater fears. Don’t be afraid to be who you are. But who am I? What if I do not know? Do you know? Does Anyone? Which face will you be today, and which is the true? I’m not sure myself anymore. Hawthorne was right, it is bewildering. I used to think that story about man coming from clay was funny. I guess the jokes on me, we are clay, ready to be molded and used by society, by God. So who are you today? Are you still fighting the good fight, afraid of your own shadow, simplifying, and conforming? Are you still…, afraid to live?


Thanks for starting this thread Zerbie.


Vortex

[Zerbie]

Man... this guy was pretty intense. My reaction to someone like him 11 years ago would have been very similar to yours.


He was protecting me. It was a role he adopted when we met - mentor/protector. I was so young! He was 10-15 years older, and took on a sort of older brother role. He used to tell me, he thought I was fragile and needed someone to take care of me. Then when he found out I was getting involved in gay rights, all his own fears came up, I guess. He told me the political/social situation was scaring him, and that I didn't know how dangerous it was. That I was throwing away my life for a worthless cause and that society would never change. That it would cost me my career.

During that same conversation he told me that if they came up with a new reparative therapy that he thought actually worked, he would leave his partner and try the therapy. Man! I left that conversation feeling heavy-hearted, which I continued to do for days. And that bit about "I would leave my partner for a new ex-gay therapy" rings in my memory all these years later, and I wonder what his life became since we last spoke that day.

[NathanATX]

He was protecting me. It was a role he adopted when we met - mentor/protector. I was so young! He was 10-15 years older, and took on a sort of older brother role. He used to tell me, he thought I was fragile and needed someone to take care of me. Then when he found out I was getting involved in gay rights, all his own fears came up, I guess. He told me the political/social situation was scaring him, and that I didn't know how dangerous it was. That I was throwing away my life for a worthless cause and that society would never change. That it would cost me my career.

During that same conversation he told me that if they came up with a new reparative therapy that he thought actually worked, he would leave his partner and try the therapy. Man! I left that conversation feeling heavy-hearted, which I continued to do for days. And that bit about "I would leave my partner for a new ex-gay therapy" rings in my memory all these years later, and I wonder what his life became since we last spoke that day.

Man, that is so sad...

[SBP]

I agree, it's heartbreaking that anyone could so doubt their own capacity for making a difference, as well as so little faith in the rest of humanity to grow and to change albeit slowly.

"Never believe that a few caring people can't change the world. Indeed, that's all that ever has." ~Margaret Mead

[LGBT FLIGHT ATTENDANT]

Be yourself - and find a place and career where you can be YOU...... There is no way that I will engage in blatant behavior if I am on the aircraft....especially international business first service supervision.

HOWEVER, everybody I work with knows that I am gay, and more, active in our gay association.

[NathanATX]

Be yourself - and find a place and career where you can be YOU...... There is no way that I will engage in blatant behavior if I am on the aircraft....especially international business first service supervision.

HOWEVER, everybody I work with knows that I am gay, and more, active in our gay association.

My ex was a flight attendant for a major airline. He's tall and stocky/muscly... add that to him being gay AND greek AND he grew up in NYC. (Just imagine "My Big Fat Greek Wedding") He was very confident, especially on his job... and flew as international purser, etc... He l-o-v-e-d to be challenged. Lord help you if it was something about his heritage or his being gay. :) Those plastic cuffs *really* work.

[Zerbie]

Be yourself - and find a place and career where you can be YOU......
.

I agree with this advice, if there is a way for you to live in an environment where you can be out, be just part of the group, and not have to deal with being closeted, it helps immensely.

Yet what about those who are conflicted about their sexuality? Who don't want to be "out," who in fact believe their sexuality is wrong? What can we say to those people that won't sound empty?

I like what BruceChris said about sex not being dirty. But what about those who still feel that their sexuality is?

[NathanATX]

I agree with this advice, if there is a way for you to live in an environment where you can be out, be just part of the group, and not have to deal with being closeted, it helps immensely.

Yet what about those who are conflicted about their sexuality? Who don't want to be "out," who in fact believe their sexuality is wrong? What can we say to those people that won't sound empty?

I like what BruceChris said about sex not being dirty. But what about those who still feel that their sexuality is?

I always talk about God's unconditional love for them. Regardless of what they've done or not done... said or not said... etc.

Then, maybe later we'd talk about verses and theology... But I constantly remind them of God's love.

[Zerbie]

I always talk about God's unconditional love for them. Regardless of what they've done or not done... said or not said... etc.

Then, maybe later we'd talk about verses and theology... But I constantly remind them of God's love.

We see eye to eye on this one. I am absolutely certain that God's love is unconditional. I *know* it is.

One thing that strikes me about those who argue against God's acceptance of gay people is, they seem to lack faith. Like there is a limit to God's infinite love. That God's patience runs out at a certain limit. Sounds to me like they lack faith in God being God, always.

Infinite. That means it never stops. It never runs out.
Unconditional. That means no matter what. No "ifs."

[Daniel]

One thing that strikes me about those who argue against God's acceptance of gay people is, they seem to lack faith. Like there is a limit to God's infinite love. That God's patience runs out at a certain limit. Sounds to me like they lack faith in God being God, always.


Zerbie- Jumping in here a little late to the discussion.

One thing come to mind: shame. The degree to which one experiences shame may be one reason why your friend said he would pursue ex-gay therapy if he could find one that works. I believe 'shame' is the huge elephant in the room which all too often rules one's behavior long after the conscious mind thinks it knows better. It's a big issue for everyone, whatever their orientation.

I would have asked that gentleman: "I know you think you're trying to protect me, but what are you protecting? What are you ashamed of?"

[Zerbie]

Great question Daniel. I would like to ask that, too.

Shame. I think that applies to a great many people about their sexuality, and not just gay people. It's easy to shame such a powerful force, one that feels so strong and body-based (usually) and one that can easily become selfish. Sexual energy needs to be brought into healthy balance. That doesn't get taught, usually. What's taught is to shove it under a rug and then we all gasp when it bursts out in inappropriate times and ways.

Shame about non-straight sexuality can run deep. My own dealings with that were relatively not that difficult or long-lasting, but I've met folk for whom it was devastating. You can 'read' the effects of shame in them years later. That was probably the case with my "protector" 11 years ago.

So then a new question: How does one heal from shame? How can you or I support and love a friend who is dealing with this issue (thinking their sexuality is dirty and being ashamed), and still leave them his/her own authority and personal space?

[SBP]

So then a new question: How does one heal from shame? How can you or I support and love a friend who is dealing with this issue (thinking their sexuality is dirty and being ashamed), and still leave them his/her own authority and personal space?

Another great question Zerbie~! How does one heal from anything? Healing is
very much a powerful, personal force deep within each us that we can tap whenever it is needed. In the case of our physical beings, nature automatically taps this for us to heal our cuts and bruises. But when the damage is to our spirit, our phyche or our emotions, it must be coaxed from within us consciously. Each of us has the power to do this, but it is something only the individual can do.

Just as a wound must be cleansed in order to promote healing, so must the cause of our "deeper hurts" be cleansed before we can heal ourselves. Because shame runs so deep, it must be excised carefully. A little shame can be healthy, because it promotes modesty. Too much and it can be crippling. Too much of almost anything usually has roots in ignorance. The
only way to combat ignorance is through knowledge and awareness. There are many good books available today on the subject of our sexual selves that dispel most of the "myths" that we usually grow up with. Perhaps a trip to your local library or Barnes & Noble bookstore might be a good first step on your friend's self journey to reclaiming his healthy human birthright.

Best of luck to you both~!! :)

[Zerbie]

Thank you SBP for such a beautiful reply!!!!!

:love:



Much to think about in what you wrote. Yes, I think you're right healing from internal wounds does require conscious awareness. It can require courage, patience, time, energy. But it's worth it, to get to a place where you don't suffer that way any more.

Thanks for your insights.

Keep 'em comin', folks.

[SBP]

Anytime Zerbie~! But in all honesty, it is I who should be thanking YOU! For wanting to be, and thus BEING, the kind of friend we ALL need and should aspire to be! Know that you will never walk alone.:)

PS. Wish me luck as I join the others at the showdown in F.O.-town (Colo. Springs) tomorrow~! ;)

Love ya' Zerbie!

[Dash]

Regarding feelings of shame at sex, it was very helpful for me to think objectively about the physiology involved. Perhaps the most common anti-gay denigration focuses on same sex male intercourse (no one talks about lesbian sex :rolleyes: ). This rhetoric factored heavily into shame I felt about my sexuality.

Those who hate us proclaim that it is filthy to use an excretory organ in sex. The truth, however, is (for both males and females) the primary organs of sex are the very same organs used for elimination. This is true for both gay and straight sexual intercourse. It only seemed more dirty to me because I had not thought about this. Then I realized that presenting a fresh and clean body to a lover is the same responsibility for everyone. (For heaven's sake! Think how much time and energy women must devote to staying clean and fresh!) It's all gross...if you choose to think about it that way.

I also had a straight, married friend who confided with me once how shaming sex had been for her at first, and I realized that some shame was probably another common human aspect of sexuality.

These realizations allowed me to feel like I was part of the natural human condition. That was in my mid-twenties. It would be another few years before I had the opportunity to test my new confidence. :p When I did, I was still stunned to find how natural the loving, physical expression of affection was.

:)

[Zerbie]

Anytime Zerbie~! But in all honesty, it is I who should be thanking YOU! For wanting to be, and thus BEING, the kind of friend we ALL need and should aspire to be! Know that you will never walk alone.:)

PS. Wish me luck as I join the others at the showdown in F.O.-town (Colo. Springs) tomorrow~! ;)

Love ya' Zerbie!

Oh - that IS tomorrow!!!!!!!! Already!!!! Yes, yes! my thoughts are with all of you as you take a peaceful stand tomorrow in CO Springs. May you be showered with blessings! :pray:

Thanks, SBP, for your incredibly uplifting kind words. Yippee!!!!! :D It's good for my heart. :love:

Now go take on the world! :rainbow:

[Zerbie]

Thank you Dash.

I wouldn't have thought of putting it in terms of, "it's all gross. . ." I actually laughed aloud in surprise when I saw that - you have a way of startling a reader, ya know that? ;)

I *have* been known to say, "It's all just plumbing." :p

Only of course, it is also so much MORE than that. But from a physiological perspective, yes it IS just plumbing. And sex is messy, as you point out.

Interesting way of breaking down the shame issue. I like it. Simple and blunt.

And yes, sexuality is easily shamed, period. For EVERYbody. It's sad. it's not helpful at all, in that the shame itself then makes it hard to deal realistically or constructively with one's own sexual feelings and behavior.

[SolApollo]

Personally, I , too, know the affects of shame, and even was afraid of sex for some time before seeing the "light." Historically, W. culture since, medieval period and afterwards - has developed a very conservative view of sex, and, in turn, the body. Due to belief in the Fall in Eden, Christian culture viewed the intimate acts as sinful, and "impure" during certain times.
Fundamentalist and evangelicals currently, on the surfarce at least, share such an opinion too.

As I mentioned before, the UCC really opened my eyes, so to speak, in view of sex. My wonderful pastor used the film Pleasantville as an example - when the characters were true to theirselves and experienced true intimacy - they became in color instead of black and white. Thus, shame is unnecessary. Isn't reality, metaphorically speaking, the same? Life does not operate under absolute black/white, but instead, a wide spectrum of color! Diversity if one of life's great expressions.

Anyway, Dash, I agree w/ your statements. Very well said.

Peace and blessings to y'all!

[Vanessa White]

What Vortex referred to as well really is striking a chord with me tonight. I mean, when I started to speak to the ALLY group on my college campus last year, about my coming out experience and the life that I live, I felt so compelled to let those in the group that might me LGBT, that it is awesome to be who you are, and to live in that and feel good about it, about being true to yourself. Then, I left my partner. Suddenly, even though I haven't spoken to the group in its entirety since the breakup, I felt like I had let many of those youths down- my 10 year relationship is done at my hand. Then, I realized, we all have the doubts that creep up, that invade even the most confident corners of our mind and our heart, when we are feeling weak or vulnerable or unloved or guilty. Now, a couple of months later, I feel a new set of resolve making its way into me. I will say to those same young persons at the next ALLY training, that life, even gay life when you feel good about being who you are, isn't perfect. it is still just life, and people trying to make a life, and doing it in the midst of pressures and insecurities and demands. Even so, it is so FREEING and EMPOWERING to be the person that you are FULLY meant to be!!!!

[Vortex]

What Vortex referred to as well really is striking a chord with me tonight. I mean, when I started to speak to the ALLY group on my college campus last year, about my coming out experience and the life that I live, I felt so compelled to let those in the group that might me LGBT, that it is awesome to be who you are, and to live in that and feel good about it, about being true to yourself. Then, I left my partner. Suddenly, even though I haven't spoken to the group in its entirety since the breakup, I felt like I had let many of those youths down- my 10 year relationship is done at my hand. Then, I realized, we all have the doubts that creep up, that invade even the most confident corners of our mind and our heart, when we are feeling weak or vulnerable or unloved or guilty. Now, a couple of months later, I feel a new set of resolve making its way into me. I will say to those same young persons at the next ALLY training, that life, even gay life when you feel good about being who you are, isn't perfect. it is still just life, and people trying to make a life, and doing it in the midst of pressures and insecurities and demands. Even so, it is so FREEING and EMPOWERING to be the person that you are FULLY meant to be!!!!


Just remember, we are humans before anything else, and we all share the emotions, insecurities, and feelings of uncertainty that come with being human. It may seem an obvious statement to make, but I think sometimes we do forget.



Vortex

[Zerbie]

Well Vortex, I think you're right, with all these categories we're splitting ourselves up into This Thing and That Thing, we lose sight of the essentials. The point is, we all share this earth, we would do well to recognize that this fact makes us effectively all brothers and sisters. Instead of carving ourselves into teams and groups and opposing one another, imagine if we shared our resources, our hearts, our wisdom, and cared for one another.

[BruceChris]

What you need/we all need is positive re-inforcement! That, plus it takes time. Our local UCC has had a program called Sex And The Spirit that addresses these issues directly. We can also always come here and tell each other how wonderful we are. (SERIOUSLY)

Plus, every time that we go out to meet the straight world, and do our best to teach people that we are normal, decent, loving, Christian people, we reinforce their understanding, and our own. We put our pants on one leg at a time, just like everybody else (Especially the Lesbians, lol). :lol: :love: :agree: :weee: :agree:

Love Ya, Zerbie!

Peace, Love, and Good Honest Sex, Now and Then. BruceChris

Edit: P.S., Miss 1000 posts, this is obviously something that you have been doing a LOT of. Friendly, supportive posts, with just the right touch of silliness. :weee: :lol: :agree: :lol: :weee: (And I'm only number 24 on the postings list. :eek: Gotta post more)

[Zerbie]

In light of the tangent on the Hello and Question thread, I' bumping this in case anyone wants to continue the conversation here.

I see the last thing talked about last summer here was shame.

Today, we were discussing the issue of respecting the decisions other people might make to choose celibacy, even if they don't really want to, if it is the only way they can reconcile their sexuality with their faith. How it is unfair to put such people in a position of being caught in a middle between warring factions (some urging them to come out, some urging them to become ex-gay.)

And that is very much the conflict I was thinking of last summer when I started this thread.

Anyone have anything to add/discuss??

[keltic63]

In light of the tangent on the Hello and Question thread, I' bumping this in case anyone wants to continue the conversation here.

I see the last thing talked about last summer here was shame.

Today, we were discussing the issue of respecting the decisions other people might make to choose celibacy, even if they don't really want to, if it is the only way they can reconcile their sexuality with their faith. How it is unfair to put such people in a position of being caught in a middle between warring factions (some urging them to come out, some urging them to become ex-gay.)

And that is very much the conflict I was thinking of last summer when I started this thread.

Anyone have anything to add/discuss??

I know that I would have to point out some problems with the theology that would teach homosexual orientation as being ok, while homosexual acts are sin. I'd want to have a discussion about how that person arrives at such a belief, and I'd be showing how that particular belief is inconsistent with the teachings of Jesus Christ. I'm sure there would be discussion about the nature of celibacy as gift or as mandate. The healthy attitude that I'd want to hear is that an individual has chosen celibacy as a calling, as opposed to the unhealthy attitude that same-sex acts are evil and must never be committed.

[Zerbie]

I know that I would have to point out some problems with the theology that would teach homosexual orientation as being ok, while homosexual acts are sin. I'd want to have a discussion about how that person arrives at such a belief, and I'd be showing how that particular belief is inconsistent with the teachings of Jesus Christ. I'm sure there would be discussion about the nature of celibacy as gift or as mandate. The healthy attitude that I'd want to hear is that an individual has chosen celibacy as a calling, as opposed to the unhealthy attitude that same-sex acts are evil and must never be committed.

Yeah, I can see that. I have the sure conviction that the teaching that says any same-sex erotic activity is wrong, is, well, wrong. Mistaken. I get that in my bones, my blood, my brain, my spirit.

The problem comes in when a gay person thoroughly believes, has a sure feeling of certainty, that his/her own erotic feelings towards the same sex are wrong, and is either unwilling or literally unable to let go of that belief. My belief is they were lied to when they were taught these things. But their belief is that it is actually so, and that acting on their feelings would distance them from God. So in that case, how can I possibly be okay with telling them otherwise? Just because I am sure?

I think your approach is a good one, Keltic. To put it in terms of Christ's teachings. Easier done if one IS a Christian and is familiar with those things.

Anything a non-Christian like me can say that doesn't disrespect their belief or their decision to be celibate, but still leaves a door open that there are other ways to interpret the conflict they are experiencing?

[d_pedr]

We humans don't like not knowing.

We like things tied up in little boxes, so that we know where everyone else is, and whom we think they are.

George Michael in an interview over here a few years ago (with Michael Parkinson), said that in the lifestyle he had, he had and took lots of opportunity for sex, for pleasure, it didn't worry him who they were or what sex apparently (this may not be the way we think of approaching sex, but it was his way of dealing with success and his emotions). But he added that he only knew he was Gay when he met someone, whom he could love for the rest of his life (in this case his partner's life). He said he was about 28 years old when he realised this.

Some people will know a lot earlier, but others may be even older, before they can understand themselves enough.

How can we help people not worry about descisions until their ready?
How can we help them be happy not to know yet?
How can we support them when they think they nearly know?

Love and Hugs

[ladyinred]

Healthy self love and self acceptance I think are needed, it must come from within, as we know from experience it does not always come from other people. Someone mentioned peace of mind, perhaps that is a barometer that we are on track. You will not obtain that peace through the approval of other's anyway.

[Zerbie]

This thread seems relevant again in light of Karen's recent visit and our discussions of celibacy and ex-gaydom.

Maybe we could try to answer the questions of how to really help one another to deal with this stuff, and how to avoid pressuring people to make decisions they aren't ready to make/may not be psychologically constituted to make. ??

Any brave wise takers??

:pray:

[Steven E. Webster]

This thread seems relevant again in light of Karen's recent visit and our discussions of celibacy and ex-gaydom.

Maybe we could try to answer the questions of how to really help one another to deal with this stuff, and how to avoid pressuring people to make decisions they aren't ready to make/may not be psychologically constituted to make. ??

Any brave wise takers??

:pray:

Well, I understand that a good therapist/counselor is supposed to be "non-directive." You can encourage a person to keep talking, to keep thinking, to keep exploring--but in the end they have make their own decisions and embrace their own path. You might think you're "helping" someone by telling them how they "should" run their life--but you really can't lift the responsibility to decide for themselves from their own shoulders.

Steven Webster

[paul]

Zerbie,
I would guess this thread would always be relevant to someone. I think your original question was caring and insightful.

I agree with Steve, that no one should tell another what to do, that each needs to make their own decisions. I don't know how consistent that is with the Christian model for living though. The bible is full of people telling others how to live (preachers, teachers, etc). I think the reason so many are "conflicted" is because they have been effected by people who are/were willing to claim an absolute knowledge of some truth and impose their beliefs/standards on another. There will always be people like that in life, so to encourage a person in the process of being strong and making ones own decisions seems the kindest thing we can do.

Back to Zerbie and keltic,

keltic wrote:
"I know that I would have to point out some problems with the theology that would teach homosexual orientation as being ok, while homosexual acts are sin."

I was never able to line up the bible with being gay. Of course, I came from a very conservative fundamental background. From what I can see most Christians who retain their faith and consider ssa (let me qualify I simply mean attraction to the same sex and nothing implied beyond that when I use ssa) and the acts associated with it a gift from God are generally more liberal.

For me, when it comes to faith in God, I have to consider what it is that informs that faith. When I was a Christian, that was the bible, but then, most Christians would make the same claim. I've read the arguments about the Greek words used by Paul and their questionable translations, but that does not answer the more direct references of "men lying with men, women lying with women." Those are both New Testament and Tanach references. Liberal thought seems to put Jesus over Paul, which fundamentalists cannot abide since they consider the whole bible to be "God's Word" and inerrant, so they work to reconcile Paul and Jesus. (I know I'm leaving lots of open spaces here, just trying to get to my point). I think it can be argued that much of the "conflict" re ssa in western 'Christian' society, originally noted by Zerbie, has it's roots in the teachings of the church and it's interpretation of the bible.
Okay, finally, my point. Each side, in their own way, claims to know the "truth," and further claims to have God on their side (so to speak). Issues of faith and God cannot be subtantiated (short of "God" appearing to all of us simultaneously and telling us "you're right and you're wrong"), so any "authority" usually resides with the person with the most eloquence. I do see a third option, however, it's the "I don't know" option. To be able to say "I don't know" when I don't is very liberating to me. I don't know why I'm attracted to the same sex, I just know that I am. I don't know if there is a God, and if there were one, whether God would approve or disapprove.

I'm not sure it's possible to be alive and be free from conflict, but I do see two kinds of conflict: internal and external. Internal is what we impose on ourselves, external is what others would impose on us. Before I came out, I was fairly 'free' from external conflict associated with my ssa, but eaten away by internal conflict. Since coming out, my kids have rejected me and my wife and most of my family treat me as broken, at best. I am having to make all new friends. But, I would rather have that external conflict than the internal conflict, simply because it's honest. So, I believe the best gift you can give another is to assist them in seeing what is in their life and encouraging them to be honest about that knowledge. I would guess that's the law of love, which is one of the things I retained from my Christianity. If we can exercise that love, always affirming anothers value no matter what, then that person is freer to see and express what's there.

Which brings us to "what to do about what is...?" I've already taken up enough space with my verbage though. Nice to have such fine people to discuss with.:)

[Progo35]

It's interesting about the non-directive thing-once I went to a counseling group for victims of sexual assault and I told the counselor during the personal interview that for whatever reason, I didn't have much interest in having sex, and I was concerned that it might not be just a chastity issue, since I thought that I should have a stronger sex drive at 21 years old, so I thought that it might be connected to what I experienced early on, which was pretty bad.

But, before I could really go into that, the woman said, "Okay...but are you sure you aren't interested in other kinds of sex? I was a little taken aback, and I also found the way she put the question funny in an ironic way, because "other kinds" is rather broad, technically that could refer to ANYTHING... So, I said, no, I didn't feel sexually attracted to women, either, which is true. I didn't go into anything else. But, at the time I saw it from two vantage points: 1) On the one hand, I didn't think that it was healthy for the counselor to presume that my lack of sexual interest in men indicated that I had sexual interest in women-doesn't it make sense that if you were molested as a child, you might have some issues with that? In respect to this, I felt like the woman was unintentionally "pushing" me towards the belief that my feelings meant that I was gay, which wasn't necessarily "non directive." 2) On the other hand, it was a compassionate question to ask, because the way she said it implies an acceptance that might have really helped me open up if I was gay or bi. So, I had mixed feelings about this woman's response to that particular issue. The group was great, though.

And, as I said, I can't help but have a few gaffaws about the "other kinds of sex" phrasing...the derisive side of me almost wanted to say, "Well, there was this cow that bit me when I was four...."

Okay, I've gotten a little silly now. I hope everyone understands what I mean by my reaction to the "other sex" quote. It just sounded funny in the context of the situation, even though the counselor was addressing a significant and difficult issue for many people.

[Zerbie]

Paul, :award:

Thanks for clarifying the internal/external matter. That slipped by me, and of course it's crucial.

I'll also need to re-read your post more thoroughly again later. There is more there than I absorbed this time round.

Thanks so much everyone for posting! A lot of good points made. Thank you.

[paul]

Progo35,

Yes, it makes complete sense that someone who has been sexually abused would have issues. If you didn't, that would be an issue. Apparently your participation didn't end with that question and hopefully some of the spaces were filled in clarifying where the counselor was coming from? You say you enjoyed the group, I hope the experience helped you along? Not to be intrusive, but do you feel like you are in an okay place now as regards your rotten experience/s. If not, are you continuing to seek out help?
And I liked your cow quip...I had an epiphany, at that point I remembered I had been bitten by a boy at age 9, no wonder I'm attracted to guys.;)

Zerbie,
Thanks for saying so, I'm glad what I said had meaning for you, just trying to put my own experience into words.
paul

[mjules]

Ah, this is a rather relevant topic for me, since I have casual friends (ie, not the bosom buddies you discuss EVERYTHING with) who seem to me to show signs of struggling to either reconcile their sexuality with their beliefs, or leave behind their sexuality entirely for the sake of their beliefs. I know both of these struggles intimately. :-P

It's difficult, at times, to watch them flounder, especially when I've just found so much freedom myself. It makes me want to give them one of the three or four books I've bought on the subject and found so helpful, but in the end, I realize that until they stop running from themselves and start looking for an honest solution, reading these things isn't going to help them.

When I started reading Mel's book "Stranger at the Gate," I told a friend of mine, "This feels so familiar, like it's my story, only different. I just hope that I hear what I need to hear to be able to reconcile everything, that I don't get to the end and say, 'He's lying to himself to make everything okay,' the way that I feel like I've been doing." Fortunately, I made it to the end and then went looking for the website, wanting to nail down my conclusions as firmly as I could before self-doubt swept them away again, with my peace intact. (Although, when I wake up at 3:30 AM to get ready for my opening shift at work, I'm often plagued with half-asleep doubts. Fortunately they tend to melt in the daylight.)

I guess my point is that I only found these answers when my torment - ie, six years of begging God to "deliver me" only to find myself falling in love with yet another beautiful young woman - drove me to leave my comfortable belief zone and look for reconciliation. I don't know if I would have been able to hear and process the truth before then.

I think there's a time and a place for everything - "A time to plant, a time to reap," to use the most applicable - and that a lot of times, following your instincts or what direction you feel your spirit is being tugged in is the best way to know whether you're planting a seed of freedom, watering it with a little questioning, or there to assist at the harvest when someone finally has that lightbulb of revelation.

For me, I think the internal struggle has been the worst. Someone described it as internal homophobia and that's exactly what it was. My body is so at peace now that most of that stress has been eliminated, that daily rigidness of holding my consciousness away from my true self.

I don't know, you know? I think the timing and method may be different (or rather, probably IS different) for everyone. How do you know what will get through to a person at which time? The only thing I know to do is to go with what "feels right," and to follow the other person's lead or cues as much as you can, always with the motive of being supportive rather than "enlightening" them. I think that's also what differentiates the Christians I DO get along with from the ones I DON'T. (Dealing with this situation at work, currently - a coworker who insists on pushing her fundamentalist evangelic beliefs on everyone as a manifestation of the performance orientation the church teachings have bred into her, while we have a couple of others with similar belief structures who are loving and kind and nowhere near that offensive.)

OK, now I've rambled and probably gotten completely off-topic. Sorry, Zerb. :o

[BrianB]

When I was questioning my sexuality as a bi' man the hardest thing for me was feeling out of control. On the surface I was confidently hetero. Underneath was a sea of nagging doubt. I chalked up my gay experiences as teenage experimenting. Would it have done any good to have someone try to coax me out of the closet at that time? I don't believe so. It was a process that I had to walk. There was also the fear of eternal damnation. I think the biggest help was the first person I came out to, my ex-girlfriend, told me that I should only come out when I was ready. She was there to talk with me about her process of coming out as bi'. She never tried to nudge me out though. On second thought she did keep introducing me to gay and lesbian friends. They were out. Being out became something more and more desirable in my eyes. She just answered my questions as I had them. I finally made the decision to come out because of being more and more involved in going to clubs, gay churches and gay pride. It was a natural process of taking control of my life. Am I out to everyone? No. I'm out to the people that are in my life on a regular basis. It's a highly individual thing. What helps one person may not work for another.

Sorry for coming to this question so late. I just wanted to share my feelings of conflictedness.

[wmanion]

Zerbie,
After my divorce, I was rasing my three children alone and they had been playing at the park. They came home and told me that a young man was sleeping and living in the park, this young man was fifteen years old. I had the kids bring him home and I took him in as part of my family. His self-esteem was horrible and he felt worthless. He had tattoo's all over his body and piercings and whenever he would get upset he would take razor blades and cut his arms and legs. This broke my heart so many times.
He turned sixteen and I helped him get his driver's license. I had let hiim borrow my car one day and he got into an accident. He called me at work to tell me he was in an accident and I aske if he was okay and he said yes. I asked if anyone had been hurt in the accident and no one had so I was relieved. I told him I would take a look at the car when I got home.
When I arrived home, I went downstairs to his bedroom and I saw a trail of blood leading to his room. As you can imagine, I became very concerned. The door was locked and music was playing and I knocked and knocked and begged him to let me in.
He finally opened the door and sat back down on his bed. His arms and legs were bleeding from him cutting on himself. I looked at him and told him to stand up. He asked why? I said, please just stand up. When he stood, I wrapped my arms around him and hugged him. I told him that cars can be replaced, people cannot, and that I loved him and the most important thing was that he was not hurt in that accident. For the first time, he sobbed like a baby, and told me that no one ever made him felt loved before. It was a turning point in his life. From that day on he never cut on himself again, he returned to high school and finshed and went on to spend a couple of years at college. He finally left my home when he was 22 and he is doing very well for himself. He is now married and the father of two beautiful children and he hugs them and tells them he loves them all the time.
I believe your friend, was much like this young man, he felt worthless and no one had ever made him feel like he was loved. Hopefully, in his travels he has met someone who could touch his heart. We most always hope for those who feel worthless that someone at some point and time, will give that one special hug that will let them know that they are special and loved beyond any imagination.

Hugz,
Bill

[paul]

geeze Bill,

sitting in my office all teary eyed. Thank you for saving that persons life, what a wonderful thing.

[u-dog]

Bill,

What a fantastic story! What a courageous and loving thing for you to do. Not only did you save his life, but his wife's, his kids, his grandkids. A person drops a pebble in a pond and the effects ripple outward. You dropped a boulder and the world will never be the same!

[Zerbie]

((((((((( Bill ))))))))))

That is just a remarkable story. Thank you SO much for what you did!

:love::love::love::love::love::love::love::love::l ove::love:

[Zerbie]

Bumping this thread for Edgelessdepths.

:pray: