Sex talk !!!
Moving on thank you for friendship. Blessings to you all
I'll not speak for the christian gay community view, or even soulforce's view, I can only give my opinion. So here it is:
marriage is a civil contract, and as gay/lesbian, we do not have that luxury here in the US as well as in many other countries. I don't see "waiting for marriage" as an option for most in the LGBT community. That said, I don't think it's necessary to have the gov't's approval in order to express physical love for someone that you do, indeed, love. Many heterosexuals do not wait, many hetero christians do not wait. So perhaps we need to look elsewhere for guidelines. The commandment from Jesus to love on another seems to be the place to find that guidance. That however, does not give us license to have sex whenever, wherever, and with whomever we please. It's not about satisfying the lusts of the flesh. It is about honoring love between two people. If you are in a relationship, falling in love, and can make a commitment to each other, I see no reason to delay an honest expression of physical love.
I guess like many persons of faith, trying to figure out the answer to this one has been a real challenge for me.
I grew up with (and also taught) "True Love Waits." I believed that sex -- yes, any sex -- was strictly for the honeymoon and afterwards.
I still maintain that waiting is a very good idea for young people, but as you get older and find yourself still single (why can't everyone find their soulmate at 23?!?), I think there is need for slight revision. I think even fundamentalists understand this at some level. For example, you don't see Southern Baptist churches going into the singles department and getting folks to sign True Love Waits pledge cards like they do with the middle school and high school departments.
I guess here is how I would express my personal beliefs now. I think that sex is for relationships, marriage and monogomy are very good, and that the fewer sexual partners you have in this life the better. But regardless of whether you hit the bullseye or are off a bit, always remember to love yourself.
Thank you for your replies! You both are really encouraging and would ask for your prayers please! Thanx bros!:pray:
I agree w/ Jamie said. To add, I'm 26, and yeah - waiting for legal recognition has become a non-issue for me now in regards to sex. I'm waiting to find someone who will love me as much as I love him. Dating is interesting & I hope to find Mr. Right soon. Admittedly, I still haven't had intimacy w/ these dates yet, but if he does everything right (romantic, respect, and a good man) - then yes, I'll go the "distance" with him.
Hope this helps in some way as I'm just learning as I go.
An unnatural sex act is one that can not be committed.
I wrote this in my blog awhile back... http://blog.myspace.com/nathanatx
"An unnatural sex act is one that can not be committed." - Kinsey
So what do we, as Christians, do with the question of sex?
Is it bad? Is premarital sex ok? What about the rules for gay & lesbians? Are some sex acts bad? When is it "ok" to have sex?
I have recently been able to be a part a workshop led by my Pastor, Rev. Ken Martin of MCC Austin www.mccaustin.com, on this topic. The following are my notes and thoughts from that workshop. Pastor Ken's lesson was titled "Sexual Ethics." His quotes will be in bold.
What is the difference between Morals & Ethics?
Morals: reflect the rules of a group at specific times; these are subject to change. In the "Suani" people(not sure if I spelled it right), homosexuality is encouraged and expected among males. In the Ruana(again spelling) homosexuality is punishable by death. He talked about "orgasmic women" in Western culture and how only in recent years has a woman's ability to orgasm been seen as natural and encouraged.
Ethics: If something is ethical it is always right. If it is unethical, it is always wrong. Ethics don't change.
Living an ethical life might cause you to go against the morals of society. Think about people that operated the Underground Railroad and helped slaves escape the South. It wasn't a moral thing to do because the "rules of the group" or the laws of the land allowed for slavery, but it was certainly an ethical thing to do.
Side note: Not one biblical family fits the 1 man + 1 woman formula in the Bible. I found this interesting, but didn't have time to dig into it.
The gospels are a conflict between ethics & morals... or more succinctly... between rules & relationships.
Galatians 5:13 You, my brothers, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature; rather, serve one another in love. Don't let your freedom be an excuse to be irresponsible.
Romans 13:8 Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for he who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law.
Specific sexual acts are neutral. Anal sex, oral sex, handjobs, kinky stuff... But, we are NOT free from submitting our actions to the standard of love.
What is Agape love? To wish the very best for another person and to be willing to sacrifice to make it happen.
The Heart of Christianity replaces all rules with love.
1 Cor. 6:12 "Everything is permissible for me"óbut not everything is beneficial. "Everything is permissible for me"óbut I will not be mastered by anything.
2 Cor. 3:6 He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenantónot of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
COVENANT: Based on promises. Ask yourself if this behavior you're considering is faithful to the promises you have made that bind the important promises in your life?... to God... to yourself... to your partner... to your church... etc. ***You HAVE to have these agreements & promises, otherwise there will be assumptions made and when one party doesn't live up to the assumption, the other person will be hurt.
Ask yourself: "Is ____(fill in the blank)___ going to move me towards becoming who I am created to be? Is it loving? Is it caring? Is it building my soul?"
You must be easier on yourself... you are not finished yet... you are a work in progress. When you sin or "miss the mark" by not keeping one of your covenants or if you do something unethical... all you have to do is: Confess--to God and whoever is involved, Repent--turn around... stop doing what you were doing, Resolve--to keep your covenants in the future.
Some final thoughts:
You don't ever end a relationship with the same promises you began it with. Relationships are about compromise... or "co-promise" ... about committing to each other.
There are three key things to consider when evaluating sexual behavior:
1. Consent: Both people have to be legally, mentally & emotionally capable to give consent.
2. Mutual: You can't use another person. You must be serious about being responsible for your needs, desires & feelings AND those of the other person.
We all carry around chains of fundamentalism in our sexual nature, and coming out as gay or lesbian is especially tough, because we automatically hold ourselves to these archaic standards. I was married to a man when I began an affair (I guess you would call it that) with my now wife. I admit I felt like I committed adultery and whether I did or didn't, I confessed it and also confessed the time after my divorce when she and I weren't married, but living together and having sex. I felt legitimate when we legalized our relationship in Canada last year. All that to say, it is very freeing to read yours and your pastors viewpoints on sex between gays and lesbians. Like I said having to live in a straight world it is hard to know what the "rules" are. But I like what you said we must temper all that we do with agape love. Very good rule and very good logic and simple. I think if we treat those we love like Christ loved the church, then we have glorified Him and that is all that matters. Great job, Nate. Good luck in seminary and God be with you. :)
I believe circumstances will dictate the appropriate moment WHEN. Rather than submitting your own sexual intimacy for judgement according to standards widely promoted in the US (a very Puritan - incidentally, I would say 'unnatural' - set of sexual mores), trust your inner voice to tell you when. Considering we don't have legal recognition of same-sex partnerships, those who are in those relationships have to set the "rules" for themselves that best suit the ethical and personal beliefs/mood/readiness of both partners.
As in any largely defined "community," the gay community like the straight community (whatever those terms mean) is going to vary wildly in sexual mores. You need to set parameters for yourself about when/with whom you feel comfortable being intimate, and respect the needs/boundaries of your partner when you are sexually active.
Great response! Appreciate you sharing your thoughts on this matter.
Big-Cheese...thanks for asking the question!
This is interesting to see everyone's thoughts. My background is very conservative and this is a question I've thought about at some point.
1 Corinthians 7:9 - (Good News Bible) "But if you cannot restrain your desires, go ahead and marry-it is better to marry than to burn with passion."
In this bible verse, I'll paraphrase it to say that: If we are always horny, and can't control ourselves, then we should get married in order to have all the sex we need.
Of course I realize that marriage entails much more than having sex, but the above verse concentrates on the sexual aspect.
Some peoples sexual appetites are greater than others, but none the less sexual urges are part of nature, a nature bestowed upon us by our Creator. I believe that if it were for procreation only, then we would "get horny" only periodically like animals during mating season.
What if we cannot find the right mate to marry for let's say 10 years, how does a person suppress those desires for so long? Should we run down the street and grab the first person that comes along and say: " I'm horny, lets get married"?
Just as God created straights with these desires, he also created gays with those same desires. Ex-Gay ministries accommodate straight sexual desires by using, 1 Cor. 7:9 while they condemn gays to a life of celibacy. Should we really believe that God is playing favorites? He gave us all the desire for sexual activity, (straight & gay) but right wing christians want to punish gays by telling us that only straight married couples are allowed the pleasures of making love. If straights cannot control their desires, what makes them think that gays can control it any better?
Since society (and churches) have not allowed gays to marry, then gays have no other choice but to seek to fulfill those desires outside the bands of matrimony.
Please understand, I am not advocating promiscuity, (God knows my own past screwed up sexual life is evidence for that) but a denial of the rights I speak of by the self-righteous bigots, may very well compel gays into that promiscuity.
Hello ppl of soulfire! wow this is exciting as this is my first time using this site you all seem so close-nit which is great! i am from Australia yet, this seems like an american thing. i have got alot out of the last 10 minuets just reading your replys and cant wait to hear more on isues that arise between what the bible really say and what ppl use against us to seperate us from GOD! my faith journey has only just began and i will admit if not for this site i was about ready to give up and go away hiding for a long time untill i was only and lust wouldn't be a problem for me because i would be decaying!! LOL but no i haven't as i am young i have done some things i regret!~ as it is very hard to both fight tempation and to find a glbs person where i live which is in the country where basicaly no churches support the homosexual christian movement! well i hope that there is true love in this world and that i find it when imm ready for it, then i will know that i am doing the right thing in giving that special part of me to that someone special! thankyou ppl of soulfire and soulfire members for this site! YOurs truely Glenn
I am going to have to preface my contribution with the following statements:
1) I am straight
2) I am married (at 23 as cited above), therefore
3) you are completely free and would be quite justified in totally ignoring what follows.
However, I'll throw in my penn'orth anyway.
I agree with an awful lot of what has been said above. What I want to add to it is this: because in Western countries marriage has been enshrined in law and surrounded by legal boundaries for reasons of inheritance, "legitimacy" of children and preferential taxation, for many hundreds of years, there tends to be an awful lot of confusion between "legal marriage" and marriage as I reckon God intended it to be.
Here's some thoughts to illustrate what I mean:
- Were Adam and Eve in the Creation account married? Yes? Who says so - a court of law? What court of law?
- Supposing you were straight or came from Canada (i.e. legal marriage was a possibility), if you and your virginal fiance were out on a round-the-world cruise and were shipwrecked on a deserted island in the middle of the ocean with no hope of ever being rescued - or legally married - would God require you to remain chaste all your lives?
What I mean is this. I believe very strongly in marriage; I believe very strongly in monogamous marriage; I believe it is an ideal, God created it, it is A Good Thing. But I don't see the fuss (morally - sorry, ethically - speaking) about legal marriage. That is just a bit of paper. By saying that I don't mean to belittle the quest for gay marriage - I understand the reasons for it, the legal rights conferred by it to inherit, adopt, be next of kin, and the public affirmation it gives to a relationship. But it's so easy for us straight people, isn't it? We don't have to sit and analyse where the bit of paper stops, and the real heart of marriage begins. We don't have to really think about what marriage means - we just sign the paper, say "I do" and it all arrives as a package. We don't have to step outside the box and evaluate it from first principles. Perhaps that's why one in three marriages ends in divorce...
But you gay people - you have to be the pioneers. You have to look at your partner and think, "I want to marry you - but how can I?". You have to seek and pray and find out who really ordains marriage - the Government, the Church... or God himself? Can you be "married" without being "married"? Why not? What defines a marriage? A piece of paper signed by a registrar? The word of a minister? Or the committment of the spouses?
Sorry, I've gone off on a tangent. What I was really trying to say, in a nutshell, is this: I believe (and you may argue with me because I recognise that there are different perspectives on the issue) that the best way to show your love for God, your partner, and yourself, is to court each other in chastity and prayer, and then, if you make the decision to commit to each other lifelong, to stand before God together (in a church? Or in a forest? In a registry office in the presence of your extended family, or in a bamboo raft in the lagoon, just the two of you?), make your vows, and only then to give yourselves to each other physically. And then stay together "for better, for worse, for richer, for poorer, in sickness and in health".
After all that - the bit of paper is a bonus. They may take your legal rights but they cannot stop you from marrying unless you let them.
God will understand, I'm sure, if it doesn't happen that way; as Jamie said, "regardless of whether you hit the bullseye or are off a bit, always remember to love yourself." I would add (or substitute) always remember to love God, and every partner, prospective partner, future ex and every other person you encounter, as you also love yourself.
But if you don't agree with me please ignore me. I'm sure I'm only here on sufferance anyway... ;) especially as I have not yet contributed to the arguments about nonviolence despite getting a free book :/
Hey Catt of the Garage,
Thank you so much for sharing! I really liked what you had to say.
The main thing I would add is a preemptive statement that honors each person's ability and right to make their own choice about what works for them and their values & committments.
I appreciate you contributing here!
That's kind of what I was getting at with "If you don't agree with me please ignore me".
:D If I ignored everyone I disagreed with, I'd have no one left to talk to! :)
I believe it's incredibly more important that we embrace life together, loving & honoring each other and respecting our different traditions, beliefs & perspectives than it is for us to agree.
Unity is more desireable than uniformity, in my opinion.
***starts humming "It's a Small World, After All"***
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