My thoughts are that cjb is just here to "cut & paste" fundamentalist doctrine, like the "accuracy" of bible prophecy, in order to lay a foundation for his/her ex-gay beliefs. I may be incorrect, of course.
At any rate, I think the following post and my response address some of the things cjb is posting.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Legion
To all you folks:
Obviously, we cannot interpret everything in the Bible as literal, since there are different types of literature within the Bible. And yes, God is bigger than simple stories. On that we agree. However, I am still curious how you decide what is allegorical/metaphorical and what is not. What is the basis of your discrimination between literal and allegorical, besides personal inclination? I appreciate NathanATX indicating that he honors how the Spirit speaks to me, but if the Spirit is speaking different things to us, then how can it be the same Spirit? How can you feel secure in personal beliefs that you do not consider right or wrong? God is unchanging and immutable. His counsels are everlasting throughout all eternity and there can be no contradiction within Him. God does not adapt to us, nor is His Gospel made to conform to our human motives and desires. It is we that must change, that must examine our lives and enter into obedience with the eternal laws of God's wisdom and covenant specified in the Holy Scriptures.
The story of Adam and Eve may indeed be allegorical, but then what is the significance of the characters in the allegory? Are Biblical allegories not used for teaching godly living? Dismissing the Bible as allegorical does not get anyone off the hook. Biblical allegory and parable is just as potent as Biblical history.
Is there absolute truth? Is there any kind of ultimate morality or standard of righteousness? What is the Bible? Who is God?This must be the question we address, rather than the fine points of doctrine and interpretation that only serve as a temporary smoke screen and only get us bogged down.
thanks all
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Legion, the questions you pose are exactly the questions the church needs to be asking today. I'll do my best to answer your questions from my perspective or let you know how I am seeking the answers myself.
"However, I am still curious how you decide what is allegorical/metaphorical and what is not. What is the basis of your discrimination between literal and allegorical, besides personal inclination?"
Well, I do a lot of reading for one. But the main basis I use is simple, common knowledge that we all have today. Thousands of years after the Bible was first compiled, we understand life completely differently. And the biblical writers' understanding of life was pivotal to the content of the stories and depictions of God they enscribed. If the underlying knowledge changes, doesn't that affect everything written based on that knowledge?
For example: the human-ness of Jesus. Biblical writers understood reproduction to be soley generated from the male. There wasn't a female counterpart needed, other than a womb for the male's baby to grow. Jesus was said to be "God in the flesh" because Mary was suppossed to have been supernaturally inseminated by God. Today we know that it takes the male & the female dna to create life. So the questions we now have are: Is Jesus fully God? Is Jesus 50% God and 50% human? How do these questions affect our Christology?
"I appreciate NathanATX indicating that he honors how the Spirit speaks to me, but if the Spirit is speaking different things to us, then how can it be the same Spirit? How can you feel secure in personal beliefs that you do not consider right or wrong?"
I think our individual traditions & experiences shape how we hear the Spirit. It would be very self-righteous and judgemental of me to hear you share something you believe that Spirit has revealed to you and tell you "you're wrong." Instead, I choose to appreciate that you say you are intent on listening to Spirit. If I have an opinion that is different from yours, I can share it in a way that doesn't leave you feeling evaluated or judged... it's just how Spirit speaks to me.
The security issue is very interesting. Do we choose to believe certain things because we are insecure? In "A New Christianity for a New World," John Shelby Spong talks about the "hysteria of self-consciousness" or the fear that hits people when we realize our frail humanity and our inability to protect ourselves from the finality of death. If that fear is the fundamental reason we believe in God, is our belief genuine? What if we were able to be brave in spite of our frailty? Would our understanding and views of God change? I think so.
"The story of Adam and Eve may indeed be allegorical, but then what is the significance of the characters in the allegory? Are Biblical allegories not used for teaching godly living?"
This line of questioning is right on the money! Through deciphering the meaning and the overall intent of these stories and passages, we can learn how God was known to the biblical writers. Through evaluating the culture and context of liturgies and stories, we can identify the reasons behind a lot of these writings.
One big question this brings up is the theology of atonement. If we understand the story of Adam & Eve to be allegorical and that "the fall" of mankind didn't really happen, then the theology of needing a savior to redeem sinners isn't neccessarily needed.
"Is there absolute truth? Is there any kind of ultimate morality or standard of righteousness? What is the Bible? Who is God?"
These are certainly the questions the church must grapple with and answer if it is to survive what John Shelby Spong calls the "death of theism" or the dying theologies that our current day wisdom and knowledge are disproving. Either Christianity finds a new and relevant interpretation of our faith tradition or we risk losing it altogether.
I HIGHLY recommend reading "Here I stand: My struggle for an authentic Christianity" and "A New Christianity for a New World" by John Shelby Spong.
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