[awediot]

Originally Posted by andrewlittle

Hello, Awediot. Welcome back. I don't really know you, nor you me, but I followed your posts quite avidly while on CARM. More about that later.

Hi andrew...You strike me as familiar, and my apologies if the old memory may need jarred a little more... It's great to -re meet you. (avidly?) There have been a few cross-over posters between the two places...I'd like to hear more later. That place is the antithesis of here. But also much more alike than I think either want to admit.

I am a christian - I am not a Christian. I make a distinction between the two that is purely my own.

As a christian, I hold to most of the tenets of faith of christianity, but disagree on some very important ones. I prefer to think of myself as a follower of the message of Christ. If I were a Christian, I am afraid I would spend more time worrying about my badge of honor and claim to righteousness than the message of Christ.

One of the tenets I have a problem with is that my salvation is dependent on Jesus' death on the cross. I believe that salvation was essentially intertwined with the message of God in the person of Jesus (who is the Christ). Salvation is to be found in hearing and following the message and teachings.

Jesus went against the religious heirarchy of his time and paid with his life. I think God could have stopped this, but was compelled to let free will reign. Christ, therefore, did not "buy" my salvation, nor die for it. Christ lived for it by living the very message he brought and by being willing to die for the integrity of that message.

Romans 1:20
20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities his eternal power and divine nature have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

-Does rather challenge the idea that only Christ and the Gospesl are the only way to Truth

Job 12:7-10
7But ask now the beasts, and they shall teach thee; and the fowls of the air, and they shall tell thee:
8Or speak to the earth, and it shall teach thee: and the fishes of the sea shall declare unto thee.
9Who knoweth not in all these that the hand of the LORD hath wrought this?
10In whose hand is the soul of every living thing, and the breath of all mankind.

...is an almost gently taunting dare to claim you've never seen it...Like even animals get it. It's abstractly true enough that we each just fill in the gaps to a natural understanding of what it's basically getting at...

We all agree it is hard to express.

John 21:25.
"...there are many other things which Jesus did; were every one of them to be written, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written."

-The Bible itself opens the door for for The "Spirit" and message of Christ and mere "Christianity", and even theism in general, to do it's job in ways we simply may not recognize if not as star spangled as western tradition has predicted it.

For me, the Bible and the words of Jesus are the Myths come true. He crossed the line between archetype Messiah, Savior and Deity manifest legends and religions were built on, and recorded history... He essentially told us He was, and we've been dealing with the impact of His influence ever since... The Bible is the best explanation IMO...But it is not perfect, and it requires interpretation and discernment...

Anyway, that's just one area of orthodoxy that I find troubling. As with any issue of faith, it will be problematic from a logical point of view. I don't think, when it comes to faith, that there is a dichotomous logical/illogical condition. Some things simply defy logic, and faith is one of them. It somehow resides in a no-man's land of ill definition.

When we believe in something without proof of it, the gap is jumped over with a leap faith...in either direction... It'd seem to boil down to what we do not have the emperical knowledge of having seen it ourselves, then technically we can not prove even to ourselves that it is hard knowledge we KNOW for a Fact...

That's a big thing... I believe that thing that used to be called planet "Pluto" exists, but not absolutely Know it... I trust in the sources which offer convincing evidence that I can deem as "proof enough" to let my "know" things about it. I place my "faith" in them, their tools, and results when we act on their influence... Faith is a more a forest for the trees thing that is so prevasive it is hard to see. I'ts pretty scary to segregate all the stuff we really do not know for certain from what we've witnessed first hand... It depends on if we do, or should..or have to, care about them.

Now, as to CARM. You, sir, have a mind as big as all outdoors. You are cerebral almost to a fault - I did say almost. You are not subtle (by a long shot) but do deal in nuances that I think evade the average person. When they become aware that they cannot follow your logic and understand, never mind counteract it, the next best thing is to become verbally violent. What ensues is a lot of chest beating and the projection of a totemic God - theirs being the bigger and more powerful one that has imbued them with absolute knowledge that you are a charleton and heretic. Ignorance seems to prove itself out most of the time.

Anyway, I for one enjoyed your posts, such that I could follow them.

Thank you... A lot of overlapping and sort of streamy, off-shoot thoughts pack themselves into my posts. Occasionally I'll look back later and wonder exactly where this or that came from...so I sorta know how i sound... But, since I tend to try more to get people to thinking, to jar them out of their comfort zone, than to tell them what they need to be doing or believe, just as I expect them to do the same for me, that somehow influences my style. You gotta first catch people's precious attention these days...

And only infants, the truly infantile and innocents are ignorant... They couldn't post on a site like this.


-appreciated the nice and intriguing reply, andrewl. I look forward to chatting...