09-10-2009, 12:14 PM
Join Date: Nov 2005
Originally Posted by Pablo Rafael
The symbols of fire, wind and the dove are derived from events recorded in the Bible.
Okay. Yeah. This is where my questions are heading. What I'm wondering is, what properties has this spirit that is was perceived in the ways it was.
What were the conditions that it was perceived one time as a dove, at other times as wind and fire? It would suggest it shows itself differently according to the qualities of the one it is touching? Or is this the wrong tree to bark up?
When Jesus was baptized by John in the Jordan River, the Holy Spirit appeared as a dove.
Doves seem less violent than flames. Is there a reason Jesus got a dove and the other fellas got flames?
disciples were hiding indoors when the power of the holy Spirit came upon them. The HS came in the sound of a rushing wind and as flames appearing over their heads.
This really gets to why I asked the question. Who saw flames over their heads? They did? Or strangers did? Everyone in town saw it? They all saw flames? Did no one see doves? Did everyone feel wind emanating from the disciples as well? How long did the flames last? An hour? A week? 6 months? 5 years? The rest of their lives? Was it constant, or did it come and go?
Did the flames have heat? One would assume so. What was the effect of this heat on the bodies of the disciples? On those around them? Did anyone jump in the water to get away? I am serious! Or was everyone filled with joy when it appeared?
Could the flame be metaphorical? If so, why choose the symbol of flame? Since it seems to recur insistently, it would seem based in a real experience - real fire - or something fire-like. The spirit consumes one, AS a fire consumes debris?
I think fire and wind are great symbols for the Holy Spirit. They are energy, not substance. Wind is not easily illustrated so it hasn't become a commonly used symbol; fire and the dove have. The dove seems less effective as a symbol than fire in my opinion.
I'm connecting to this. The Holy Spirit is fire-like and wind-like at varying times, because it is like a kind of spiritual-kinetic energy.
I can see why the wind might not recur often as a symbol, as it would be more difficult to render in painting, and particularly in sculpture, than fire or a bird. But why in your opinion is the dove a less effective symbol than fire?
Love is hard to see, hard to measure, but its effect is real and powerful. In fact, I think love is more powerful than any other force in the universe.
And to the extent that this spirit is god, it is love. ?
I can see love being characterized as fire-like or as bird-like, depending upon the angle from which one is looking. Or even as wind-like. Yes, I can see that.
Never linger too long with the ignorant,
throw stones at their talk.
Walk only with the lovers,
the mirror of the soul gets rusty when
dipped in muddy water.