[tymejumper]

I have had this very discussion with a friend about healthcare. He is a very logical man and I much enjoy our debates.

To argue if something is morally or ethically just, you would have to use emotions and therefore you would not be able to logically argue this. Morals and ethics in and of itself is charged with emotion and also religious beliefs. In order to have a logical discussion on this, you would have to seperate morals and religious beliefs from the actual facts of this argument. I am not possitive in my own mind that it is entirely possible to do so.

If you are asking in my opinion if it is morally just to give health care to all, the answer would be yes. I have read that you have presented that the reason people do not have health care is because of poor choices. This is not always true.

Here, in Michigan, the unemployment rate is very very high. Those that chose to go to college and get degrees, are no longer able to find jobs. They lack jobs as they were laid off and are unable to move for a multitude of reasons. They made the right choices according to you, they went to college and saved their money, but with virtually no job market and a mortgage to pay, they have little choice about if they can afford to go back to college to hopefully get a degree that will allow them to get a job. One providing health insurance. Also there are people whom have been told they are just laid off temporarily and so expect to be called back to their present jobs, health insurance stops after you are laid off. If they actively pursue and find a job to get health insurance, they would have to find one that paid equal to the unemployment they now get or lose money and any promise of being called back to their former, and higher paying job. This seems to be stupid on their part as they want to work to get ahead, not behind and that is what yo have outlined in your posts by saying people choose to be poor and make bad choices. Those that get laid off may have to use almost all of their pay to pay bills and all their savings also. They can't afford to go out of state, to look for work, and then somehow fund moving their families and such. This alone costs thousands of dollars, better hope you have a huge slush fund to pay for this.

This is just but one argument I could present to you proving it is moral to provide health care to all. Unemployed people are paying for the poor choices of the politicians, and consumers that buy non american, and cause American workers to lose jobs to other countries.

Morally, I could also say to you that I am very offended that someone would stop health care to all because they are against someone getting an abortion because they have no choice but to get one. Now, before you say there is always a choice and open that can of worms, let's not go there!( I do not wish to discuss pro and cons of abortion, most of all religion about it or lack of religion about it) I also believe that when people dictate those type of things I feel I am free to prevent people from getting health care if they fall into this group 'insert any group, religion or type of person here' also. I will say I don't want my money to go for helathcare for 'insert any group, religion or type of person' that I would be offended and angered if my money went for these type of people. See how silly that sounds? You can not legislate morals, ask Iran, they have tried.(long live the Burka)

Saying people choose to be poor is like saying women choose to be raped as they have worn a skirt. It is untrue and biased. Some people may make poor decisions, however, this does not make them any less deserving of basic health care. Are we God and get to punish people for poor decisions. What one of us can say we have made consistantly good decisions?. Much depends on our education(which is out of their control) where we live(mostly out of our control) and oppourtunities we have or may not have,(much depends on luck). To decide who deserves what, we have to take every socio-economic variable into account and that is quite frankly almost impossible.