Sex talk !!!

[Big-Cheese]

Moving on thank you for friendship. Blessings to you all

[keltic63]

Gareth,

I'll not speak for the christian gay community view, or even soulforce's view, I can only give my opinion. So here it is:

marriage is a civil contract, and as gay/lesbian, we do not have that luxury here in the US as well as in many other countries. I don't see "waiting for marriage" as an option for most in the LGBT community. That said, I don't think it's necessary to have the gov't's approval in order to express physical love for someone that you do, indeed, love. Many heterosexuals do not wait, many hetero christians do not wait. So perhaps we need to look elsewhere for guidelines. The commandment from Jesus to love on another seems to be the place to find that guidance. That however, does not give us license to have sex whenever, wherever, and with whomever we please. It's not about satisfying the lusts of the flesh. It is about honoring love between two people. If you are in a relationship, falling in love, and can make a commitment to each other, I see no reason to delay an honest expression of physical love.

[Jamie McDaniel]

I guess like many persons of faith, trying to figure out the answer to this one has been a real challenge for me.

I grew up with (and also taught) "True Love Waits." I believed that sex -- yes, any sex -- was strictly for the honeymoon and afterwards.

I still maintain that waiting is a very good idea for young people, but as you get older and find yourself still single (why can't everyone find their soulmate at 23?!?), I think there is need for slight revision. I think even fundamentalists understand this at some level. For example, you don't see Southern Baptist churches going into the singles department and getting folks to sign True Love Waits pledge cards like they do with the middle school and high school departments.

I guess here is how I would express my personal beliefs now. I think that sex is for relationships, marriage and monogomy are very good, and that the fewer sexual partners you have in this life the better. But regardless of whether you hit the bullseye or are off a bit, always remember to love yourself.

[Big-Cheese]

Thank you for your replies! You both are really encouraging and would ask for your prayers please! Thanx bros!

Love ya

[SolInvictus]

I agree w/ Jamie said. To add, I'm 26, and yeah - waiting for legal recognition has become a non-issue for me now in regards to sex. I'm waiting to find someone who will love me as much as I love him. Dating is interesting & I hope to find Mr. Right soon. Admittedly, I still haven't had intimacy w/ these dates yet, but if he does everything right (romantic, respect, and a good man) - then yes, I'll go the "distance" with him.

Hope this helps in some way as I'm just learning as I go.

[NathanATX]

I wrote this in my blog awhile back... http://blog.myspace.com/nathanatx

************************************************** *

"An unnatural sex act is one that can not be committed." - Kinsey

So what do we, as Christians, do with the question of sex?

Is it bad? Is premarital sex ok? What about the rules for gay & lesbians? Are some sex acts bad? When is it "ok" to have sex?

I have recently been able to be a part a workshop led by my Pastor, Rev. Ken Martin of MCC Austin www.mccaustin.com, on this topic. The following are my notes and thoughts from that workshop. Pastor Ken's lesson was titled "Sexual Ethics." His quotes will be in bold.

What is the difference between Morals & Ethics?

Morals: reflect the rules of a group at specific times; these are subject to change. In the "Suani" people(not sure if I spelled it right), homosexuality is encouraged and expected among males. In the Ruana(again spelling) homosexuality is punishable by death. He talked about "orgasmic women" in Western culture and how only in recent years has a woman's ability to orgasm been seen as natural and encouraged.

Ethics: If something is ethical it is always right. If it is unethical, it is always wrong. Ethics don't change.

Living an ethical life might cause you to go against the morals of society. Think about people that operated the Underground Railroad and helped slaves escape the South. It wasn't a moral thing to do because the "rules of the group" or the laws of the land allowed for slavery, but it was certainly an ethical thing to do.

Side note: Not one biblical family fits the 1 man + 1 woman formula in the Bible. I found this interesting, but didn't have time to dig into it.

The gospels are a conflict between ethics & morals... or more succinctly... between rules & relationships.

Galatians 5:13 You, my brothers, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature; rather, serve one another in love. Don't let your freedom be an excuse to be irresponsible.

Romans 13:8 Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for he who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law.

Specific sexual acts are neutral. Anal sex, oral sex, handjobs, kinky stuff... But, we are NOT free from submitting our actions to the standard of love.

What is Agape love? To wish the very best for another person and to be willing to sacrifice to make it happen.

The Heart of Christianity replaces all rules with love.

1 Cor. 6:12 "Everything is permissible for me"—but not everything is beneficial. "Everything is permissible for me"—but I will not be mastered by anything.

2 Cor. 3:6 He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

COVENANT: Based on promises. Ask yourself if this behavior you're considering is faithful to the promises you have made that bind the important promises in your life?... to God... to yourself... to your partner... to your church... etc. ***You HAVE to have these agreements & promises, otherwise there will be assumptions made and when one party doesn't live up to the assumption, the other person will be hurt.

Ask yourself: "Is ____(fill in the blank)___ going to move me towards becoming who I am created to be? Is it loving? Is it caring? Is it building my soul?"

You must be easier on yourself... you are not finished yet... you are a work in progress. When you sin or "miss the mark" by not keeping one of your covenants or if you do something unethical... all you have to do is: Confess--to God and whoever is involved, Repent--turn around... stop doing what you were doing, Resolve--to keep your covenants in the future.

Some final thoughts:

You don't ever end a relationship with the same promises you began it with. Relationships are about compromise... or "co-promise" ... about committing to each other.

There are three key things to consider when evaluating sexual behavior:

1. Consent: Both people have to be legally, mentally & emotionally capable to give consent.

2. Mutual: You can't use another person. You must be serious about being responsible for your needs, desires & feelings AND those of the other person.

3. Private

[pnggrad79]

Nathan,
We all carry around chains of fundamentalism in our sexual nature, and coming out as gay or lesbian is especially tough, because we automatically hold ourselves to these archaic standards. I was married to a man when I began an affair (I guess you would call it that) with my now wife. I admit I felt like I committed adultery and whether I did or didn't, I confessed it and also confessed the time after my divorce when she and I weren't married, but living together and having sex. I felt legitimate when we legalized our relationship in Canada last year. All that to say, it is very freeing to read yours and your pastors viewpoints on sex between gays and lesbians. Like I said having to live in a straight world it is hard to know what the "rules" are. But I like what you said we must temper all that we do with agape love. Very good rule and very good logic and simple. I think if we treat those we love like Christ loved the church, then we have glorified Him and that is all that matters. Great job, Nate. Good luck in seminary and God be with you.

[ps403]

Great response! Appreciate you sharing your thoughts on this matter.

Big-Cheese...thanks for asking the question!

This is interesting to see everyone's thoughts. My background is very conservative and this is a question I've thought about at some point.