Bisexuality and the Conservative Agenda

[glbt_equality]

Some of the recent news stories, combined with more of the same over the past few decades, have got me thinking about a fresh way of understanding an "adversarial viewpoint." Here's what I came up with:

Bisexuality and the Conservative Agenda

Much of the rhetoric surrounding the issues of GLBT equality has to do with the topic of “choice.” Despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary, there remains a large vein of extreme conservatism (the Religious Right and the Republican Party) who insist that a person’s sexual orientation is determined by a decision made by each individual.

How can that be? How can so many so-called intelligent people simply ignore all that evidence and all of our sworn statements and all of our testimonials that we, too, would have probably “chosen” to be straight… if that had only been an option for us. The idea that any persecuted class of citizen would “choose” to be persecuted is itself such a ludicrous proposition that it begs the question, “Why are we still arguing about choice?”

“Choice” is, after all, a central tenet to continued denial of human rights. The “choice” between straight and gay becomes, in the minds of conservatives, the choice between good and evil, and becomes therefore the singular point from which they are empowered to deny our civil liberties. Take away the issue of “choice,” and admit that we are born this way… and you take away their rationale for punishment. Take away the issue of “choice,” and they would have to start treating us like human beings.

The GLBT community, in all our activities and lobbying efforts, seem to pay little attention to the “B” in “GLBT,” and the reason for this becomes obvious when you look at our organizations a little more closely. Attend any PFLAG meeting around the country, or go to any gay church or activist-oriented meeting and you’ll find that while the gay, lesbian and transgendered communities are well represented, there are precious few self-identified bisexual people present.

So I asked myself why this might be… and the answer was so obvious that I was amazed it hadn’t occurred to me earlier. You see… you have to realize that some of us DO have a choice – there are those among us who have the luxury of being able to “pick” their own sexual orientation – and those fortunate few are called “bisexual.”

Think about it… if you had a choice… if you were bisexual, and could chose between full equality (straight) or being a member of the persecuted class (gay), which would you choose?

So maybe the reason we don’t have more bisexuals among our ranks, joining in the good fight for equality, is due to the fact that it was easier for them to simply make the choice to be “straight,” and voila… the issue no longer affects them… they become immune to the slings and arrows and religious and social and even physical violence directed toward the GLBT community.

Once I recognized this dynamic, then an even more amazing truth hit me so squarely between the eyes, that it almost knocked me out of my chair! I was sitting here, wondering about those people who – in spite of all this overwhelming evidence – continue to insist that being gay is a choice.

These people are terrified that recognizing gay humanity will cause in our country a gay “epidemic”… where all sorts of formerly “straight” people will begin “choosing” a gay lifestyle. The fear that making gay “ok” will therefore destroy the very fabric of the American family… that we’ll all start running around naked and making love in the streets… that cats and dogs will start sleeping together… “It’ll be anarchy, I tell you!”

Who would think such a thing? Who would honestly believe that it’s a simple matter of choice in spite of all the evidence? Well, I believe the most likely candidate is the near-forgotten “B” in “GLBT,” our bisexual brothers and sisters. Who else could “know” beyond a shadow of doubt that sexuality is a choice but those among us for which it actually IS a choice?

It is ironic to me that, in spite of our inclusion of bisexuals in our ongoing struggle toward freedom, that some bisexuals, in addition to choosing the “straight” path, have also chosen to be among our most prolific adversaries – spewing hate from pulpit and judicial bench, from pen and from stage… perhaps even bringing themselves to believe that we are all, like them, blessed with the ability to make our sexual orientation a simple matter of choice. So some of the people we are trying to help liberate are also the same people who are “hell-bent” on subduing our liberty.

The dynamic is all around us, as we see preachers and “straight” Republican congressmen getting busted for illicit gay sex acts in airport restrooms, we can’t help but start to ask why those who shout most loudly against our liberties seem to be trying foremost to keep their own “demons” at bay….

I say, “Enough!” I happen to be a gay man, but I don’t presume to believe or preach the ridiculous notion that all men are therefore gay. So if you happen to be bisexual, we’re simply asking that you don’t make the ludicrous assumption that all humans are similarly oriented to being able to make that choice. I’ll make a deal with you… I’ll accept your bisexuality – I’ll accept the notion that you really can choose – if you accept the fact that I can’t. How’s that for a deal?

Maybe if more of us can start to accept the notion that humans are created with a variety of qualities, we can all start to get along better.

--Troy Carlyle

[Zerbie]

Troy,

You and I have spoken several times before very amicably. Do you know that I am bisexual? Naturally, I have some responses to your (interesting and in some ways on-target) assessment of bisexuality and "choice."

Originally Posted by glbt_equality

Bisexuality and the Conservative Agenda

Much of the rhetoric surrounding the issues of GLBT equality has to do with the topic of “choice.” Despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary, there remains a large vein of extreme conservatism (the Religious Right and the Republican Party) who insist that a person’s sexual orientation is determined by a decision made by each individual.

How can that be? How can so many so-called intelligent people simply ignore all that evidence and all of our sworn statements and all of our testimonials that we, too, would have probably “chosen” to be straight… if that had only been an option for us. The idea that any persecuted class of citizen would “choose” to be persecuted is itself such a ludicrous proposition that it begs the question, “Why are we still arguing about choice?”

“Choice” is, after all, a central tenet to continued denial of human rights. The “choice” between straight and gay becomes, in the minds of conservatives, the choice between good and evil, and becomes therefore the singular point from which they are empowered to deny our civil liberties. Take away the issue of “choice,” and admit that we are born this way… and you take away their rationale for punishment. Take away the issue of “choice,” and they would have to start treating us like human beings.

Actually, no. It's like taking away one leg from the table, but it doesn't come crashing to the ground. Convince the adversary that it's not a choice, and then we will hear the rebuttal, "some people are born prone to alcoholism or kleptomania and they didn't have a choice either - it's still a disease and it's still morally wrong, therefore it still deserves legal sanction." We won't win if the "choice" debate goes away - well, not immediately at least. We probably WILL win some percentage points in the opinion polls, but we won't immediately bury our adversaries because in the absence of one ridiculous argument, they WILL replace it with another.

The GLBT community, in all our activities and lobbying efforts, seem to pay little attention to the “B” in “GLBT,” and the reason for this becomes obvious when you look at our organizations a little more closely. Attend any PFLAG meeting around the country, or go to any gay church or activist-oriented meeting and you’ll find that while the gay, lesbian and transgendered communities are well represented, there are precious few self-identified bisexual people present.

Yes, true.

Bisexual people are frequently subsumed into the category of orientation that corresponds to the gender of their partner. Stomping your feet and reminding everyone "Hey, I'm bisexual" starts to feel ridiculous after a while, since you aren't issuing an invitation for a date on Saturday night, so what's the point. If you're bi and with a girl, they'll think you're lesbian. If you're bi and with a boy, they'll think you're straight.




So I asked myself why this might be… and the answer was so obvious that I was amazed it hadn’t occurred to me earlier. You see… you have to realize that some of us DO have a choice – there are those among us who have the luxury of being able to “pick” their own sexual orientation – and those fortunate few are called “bisexual.”


Oh no sweetie. Sorry. It doesn't work that way. I didn't choose to be bisexual. It HAPPENED TO ME just like being gay happened to you. Choice only comes into play with how one DEALS with the orientation - but just as you didn't choose to like guys and only guys, neither did I choose to like both guys AND girls.


Think about it… if you had a choice… if you were bisexual, and could chose between full equality (straight) or being a member of the persecuted class (gay), which would you choose?


I didn't. I didn't choose, Troy. Love found me. Call me weird, but I would go with whatever partner brought out the strength, the courage, and the love in me - who I trust, who I love, who I am proud call my partner. I want to be authentic on the inside and live in authenticity, not hide the essentials for the sake of outwardly getting along but at the expense of the spirit!

Don't think this means I'm unaware of all the privileges that come with being partnered with the socially appropriate gender. I'm reminded of it every day. I'm SWIMMING in heterosexual privilege, and you know what that illustrates? It illustrates how incredibly ARBITRARY is the kind of discrimination that you deal with daily. If I had but fallen in love with and settled down with a woman, they'd be heaping disdain and other shit on me. But I fell for a guy, and all is hunky-dory. They are missing the fact that I am the exact same person with the exact same values in either scenario.

So maybe the reason we don’t have more bisexuals among our ranks, joining in the good fight for equality, is due to the fact that it was easier for them to simply make the choice to be “straight,” and voila… the issue no longer affects them… they become immune to the slings and arrows and religious and social and even physical violence directed toward the GLBT community.

I don't doubt that there are some bisexuals out there who in fact HAVE made that choice. I believe that some of the "ex gays" out there who seem convinced of a change, are likely bisexual in varying degrees. There are homophobic bisexuals, sure, just as there are homophobic homos.

There are ALSO bisexuals out there who define as lesbian or gay because they fear rejection by the gay community if they recognize or admit to opposite sex attractions. That was a huge fear for me when I first came out to myself as bi. I was terrified I would be accused of betraying the gay community. So instead I pulled a disappearing act, and dropped out of activism altogether on the reasoning that "gay people won't want me once they know who I really am."

And there are bisexuals who identify as lesbian or gay because that's as far as they want to go with the process of questioning and re-evaluating their orientation. I've met people who I KNOW are bisexual, and some of them insist they are straight while others insist they are gay. For them, opening up the questions again looks far too painful to bear.



Who would think such a thing? Who would honestly believe that it’s a simple matter of choice in spite of all the evidence? Well, I believe the most likely candidate is the near-forgotten “B” in “GLBT,” our bisexual brothers and sisters. Who else could “know” beyond a shadow of doubt that sexuality is a choice but those among us for which it actually IS a choice?

Here, a distinction needs to be made between sexual orientation and behavior. The behavior is a choice, the orientation is not. That's true across the board whatever orientation we are talking about. The essential difference for a bisexual person is that they CAN find a member of the socially appropriate gender with whom they can be responsive, whereas a gay person cannot. But even that is not a choice of ORIENTATION. That's a choice of PARTNER, and we all know what happens when a 100% gay person chooses an opposite sex partner.

It is ironic to me that, in spite of our inclusion of bisexuals in our ongoing struggle toward freedom, that some bisexuals, in addition to choosing the “straight” path, have also chosen to be among our most prolific adversaries – spewing hate from pulpit and judicial bench, from pen and from stage… perhaps even bringing themselves to believe that we are all, like them, blessed with the ability to make our sexual orientation a simple matter of choice. So some of the people we are trying to help liberate are also the same people who are “hell-bent” on subduing our liberty.

I'm sure that's true. Troy, please do not forget that some of our most battle-scarred warriors in the fight for equality have been, or currently are, bisexual. This dynamic operates on BOTH sides of the equation.

I say, “Enough!” I happen to be a gay man, but I don’t presume to believe or preach the ridiculous notion that all men are therefore gay. So if you happen to be bisexual, we’re simply asking that you don’t make the ludicrous assumption that all humans are similarly oriented to being able to make that choice. I’ll make a deal with you… I’ll accept your bisexuality – I’ll accept the notion that you really can choose – if you accept the fact that I can’t. How’s that for a deal?

--Troy Carlyle

Troy, can you see why this might appear to me as a rant against bisexual people as a whole? I think you mean to rail against those who are doing harm to the cause, but it almost read to me like you resent including bisexuals in this movement at all. I can't pretend to feel happy about that.

[BrianB]

Zerbie, you said it very eloquently. Bisexual people can not turn off their attraction for both sexes. The choice come in when we choose to be faithful to our partner. If my partner happens to be the opposite sex that is not hiding. If my partner happens to be a man that doesn't mean I'll quit appreciating an attractive woman.

Troy, it also frustrates me that there are bisexual people that will not stand up and be counted. They have their nice little marriage with their nice job in the nice part of town. However, speaking in generalities about any group of people is dangerous. Many bisexual people are also activists like you.

[u-dog]

I understand your reactions Zerbie and Brian and how you might hear what Troy wrote in that light but don't miss what he is saying.

He is asking the question that I have often asked: "Why would anyone assume that sexual orientation is a choice?" The personal experience of the vast majority of straight people and gay people is that we "woke up that way" one day shortly after our eleventh or twefth birthday. Those of us who are gay spent huge amounts of psychological, emotional, and spiritual energy trying to change and couldn't. So WHY WOULD SOMEONE ASSUME THAT SEXUAL ORIENTATION IS A CHOICE???

One answer is the one that Troy is positing. For some (many?) people the object of sexual attraction IS a choice and those people are ASSUMING THAT EVERYONE IS LIKE THEM and some are CHOOSING to have sex with people of the same gender.

He is not saying that all bi-sexuals are bigots. he is suggesting that the possibility exists that all the homophobic bigots are bi-sexuals who assume that their experience is universal. The irony of that is of course STAGGERING. It is also amusing to imagine what would happen to the "its a lifestyle choice" argument if we started to answer it by suggesting to those who make it that "their slip is showing"

[glbt_equality]

Thanks, U-Dog, for understanding. I hope you all know me well enough by now to not read between the lines any bigotry on my part. And I'm of course not suggesting that bisexuals have a choice in being bisexual. They do, however... and by definition... have a marvelous option of choosing a lifestyle. I just think that it's unfortunate that some (albeit only "some") have used that "ability" to cause harm.

It hurts my heart to think that any of my friends here might take this as lashing out at you. Please accept my apologies for creating that impression and know that I was speaking to the smaller part of a larger population.

I further realize that such viewpoints are destined to be controversial, and would rather drop the point alltogether than lose friendships made here, among you. I ask that you understand, however, that my purpose was to consider a viewpoint that may help all of us to better understand the larger dynamics behind the ongoing bigotry in our country... and in considering such possibilities, perhaps be better equipped to promote change. In other words... if we can better understand what is broken, we are better equipped to "fix it."

Peace and Love, Troy

[Zerbie]

Originally Posted by glbt_equality

Thanks, U-Dog, for understanding. I hope you all know me well enough by now to not read between the lines any bigotry on my part. And I'm of course not suggesting that bisexuals have a choice in being bisexual. They do, however... and by definition... have a marvelous option of choosing a lifestyle. I just think that it's unfortunate that some (albeit only "some") have used that "ability" to cause harm.

That's what I thought you meant to get at. The comments seemed rather generalized, however, and even kind of angry. Having gone through a lot of fear that my orientation would be construed as threatening to the gay community, I had to make clear certain distinctions.

It hurts my heart to think that any of my friends here might take this as lashing out at you. Please accept my apologies for creating that impression and know that I was speaking to the smaller part of a larger population.

Please don't feel hurt. I didn't believe you meant it that way - but I've heard a lot of comments from gay people over the years that amount to excluding, denying, and defaming bisexuals. Some of them came from people I trusted and thought were my friends.
I wanted to make sure you understood the distinction between bisexual orientation and lifestyle choices. Seems clear that you do, and as I suspected you were after a small portion of the population. I didn't find that all too clear the first time around, and wanted to verify. I felt a need to clear the air early. Don't worry about that. Everything is fine.

I further realize that such viewpoints are destined to be controversial, and would rather drop the point alltogether than lose friendships made here, among you. I ask that you understand, however, that my purpose was to consider a viewpoint that may help all of us to better understand the larger dynamics behind the ongoing bigotry in our country... and in considering such possibilities, perhaps be better equipped to promote change. In other words... if we can better understand what is broken, we are better equipped to "fix it."

Peace and Love, Troy

Don't worry, Troy.

You don't have to drop it. I was anxious to clarify that you were not lumping all of us into the category of assuming you can change your orientation la dee da. It was the line "if you happen to be bisexual" in the final paragraph, which was quite generalized, that made me wonder if you were aware that some of your friends here ARE bisexual, and if you were aware of the distinction between orientation and behavior (check, and check).

Personally, I've always thought it likely that a number of self-proclaimed "ex gays" are probably bisexual, which would explain why they were able to choose an opposite sex partner and turn their back on same-sex romantic relationships with a degree of certainty that it's the real thing. It bugs me to think of people doing that and then turning around and agitating that gay folk should do likewise. No quibbles there!

Carry on.

[Zerbie]

Originally Posted by u-dog

I understand your reactions Zerbie and Brian and how you might hear what Troy wrote in that light but don't miss what he is saying.

He is asking the question that I have often asked: "Why would anyone assume that sexual orientation is a choice?" WHY WOULD SOMEONE ASSUME THAT SEXUAL ORIENTATION IS A CHOICE???

One answer is the one that Troy is positing. For some (many?) people the object of sexual attraction IS a choice :

Then you do not understand, Dave. It ISN'T a choice. We don't choose attraction!! Only whether or not we act upon it.

[u-dog]

Originally Posted by Zerbie

Then you do not understand, Dave. It ISN'T a choice. We don't choose attraction!! Only whether or not we act upon it.

Sorry I missed this post Zerbie! no I didn't mean that bi-sexual people can choose who they are attracted to but rather that since they are attracted to both genders they could choose who they had relationships with. So homophobic bisexuals who imagine that their experience is universal also imagine that gay people and straight people have a choice about their partners also.

[BrianB]

Originally Posted by u-dog

I understand your reactions Zerbie and Brian and how you might hear what Troy wrote in that light but don't miss what he is saying.

He is asking the question that I have often asked: "Why would anyone assume that sexual orientation is a choice?" The personal experience of the vast majority of straight people and gay people is that we "woke up that way" one day shortly after our eleventh or twefth birthday. Those of us who are gay spent huge amounts of psychological, emotional, and spiritual energy trying to change and couldn't. So WHY WOULD SOMEONE ASSUME THAT SEXUAL ORIENTATION IS A CHOICE???

One answer is the one that Troy is positing. For some (many?) people the object of sexual attraction IS a choice and those people are ASSUMING THAT EVERYONE IS LIKE THEM and some are CHOOSING to have sex with people of the same gender.

He is not saying that all bi-sexuals are bigots. he is suggesting that the possibility exists that all the homophobic bigots are bi-sexuals who assume that their experience is universal. The irony of that is of course STAGGERING. It is also amusing to imagine what would happen to the "its a lifestyle choice" argument if we started to answer it by suggesting to those who make it that "their slip is showing"

U-dog, I did go back and re-read Troy's post a bit more closely. I do see how it can be interpreted in a kinder light. There were just some very general statements that kind of bugged me.

One day several months after I had come out to my mom as bisexual we were talking about my coming out. Mom said she understood about having attractions for the same sex when you are younger. It is an experimenting phase. Then she confessed that she had been attracted to a girl in school. Of course, she said that she grew out of that phase. She thought that I had as well. That makes me think that mummy was bisexual too. Evidently, she is an example of Troy's point.

BrianB

[sailaway58]

Speaking completely from the outside and with no personal experience, Bisexuality muddies the water a bit when trying to understand the whole Gay thing.
I have always said bisexual's are just people that can't make a commitment.
Don't get mad at me that's just the heterosexual lack of understanding coming out of me.
I tend to agree with Troy but it doesn't effect me the same as some of you which only furthers proof I have know idea what the hell I am talking about.

[tymejumper]

Originally Posted by BrianB

Zerbie, you said it very eloquently. Bisexual people can not turn off their attraction for both sexes. The choice come in when we choose to be faithful to our partner. If my partner happens to be the opposite sex that is not hiding. If my partner happens to be a man that doesn't mean I'll quit appreciating an attractive woman.

Troy, it also frustrates me that there are bisexual people that will not stand up and be counted. They have their nice little marriage with their nice job in the nice part of town. However, speaking in generalities about any group of people is dangerous. Many bisexual people are also activists like you.

When I first came out I identified as bisexual, as I have dated both men and women. I found that I prefer women and now identify as lesbian. I actually had to go to therapy to figure out who to identify! how sad is that? I have always identified myself as gay.

The looks a person gets in the gay communtiy when they say they are "bi" is amazing. People think you are cheap, slutty and cant be faithful. They think you are confused and want to savor gay relationships and have hetero privelidge. Actually, it is VERY difficult to be bi as you have 2 closets to come out from, no one accepts you and everyone hates you! Bis have a hard time standing up for gay rights as they are often shunned in the gay community. Did you know some lesbians will not date a bi girl cause they dont trust them to not throw them over for a man? Its actually sad.

Zerbie, I am so glad you are a vocal part of the community and identify as proud and bi. People do not seem to understand that it is not a choice to be atracted to both sexes, it happens. You fall in love with someone and whatever sex they are does not matter. How much more complete could a human be? To be able to look into both sexes for your soulmate is awesome.

We need to understand that sexuality is fluid and we are all along a continum of straight to gay. Some of us are only completely attracted to opposite sex, some only attracted to same sex and the rest fall in between. That scientifically is aproximately 80% of the populace with 10% gay the other 10% straight.

[Zerbie]

Originally Posted by tymejumper

When I first came out I identified as bisexual, as I have dated both men and women. I found that I prefer women and now identify as lesbian. I actually had to go to therapy to figure out who to identify! how sad is that? I have always identified myself as gay.

The looks a person gets in the gay communtiy when they say they are "bi" is amazing. People think you are cheap, slutty and cant be faithful. They think you are confused and want to savor gay relationships and have hetero privelidge. Actually, it is VERY difficult to be bi as you have 2 closets to come out from, no one accepts you and everyone hates you! Bis have a hard time standing up for gay rights as they are often shunned in the gay community. Did you know some lesbians will not date a bi girl cause they dont trust them to not throw them over for a man? Its actually sad.

Zerbie, I am so glad you are a vocal part of the community and identify as proud and bi. People do not seem to understand that it is not a choice to be atracted to both sexes, it happens. You fall in love with someone and whatever sex they are does not matter. How much more complete could a human be? To be able to look into both sexes for your soulmate is awesome.

We need to understand that sexuality is fluid and we are all along a continum of straight to gay. Some of us are only completely attracted to opposite sex, some only attracted to same sex and the rest fall in between. That scientifically is aproximately 80% of the populace with 10% gay the other 10% straight.

Nice. Thank you Tyme, this helps a great deal.

I've been feeling frustrated with parts of this thread where that godawful word "choice" keeps coming back, again and again. I feel like, "Hey I just TOLD you, aren't you listening?" The choice is not over orientation, it's over whether or not to FOLLOW when the orientation leads you down the socially prohibited path. Same choice a gay person has, although with the merciful difference that a bisexual CAN still find an opposite sex partner and be responsive. THAT is the critical difference, and that's where this entire conversation pivots.

Troy - the re-write is much better. Thank you. It makes a real difference that you don't let readers think you are universalizing about bisexuals. You are very dear to me: thank you for your re-write and your kind remarks.

Ya know. I love BEING bisexual but I hate TELLING people I'm bisexual. As I said (two years ago?) to Awediot, it's MUCH easier telling straight folk I'm bisexual than it is telling gay folk. I'm scared to death of being rejected by my gay friends and colleagues, so I'm much more likely to stay closeted around them. Can't tell you how many times I've let them label me as straight without clarifying, because I'm afraid they'll change their minds about me if I tell them this tidbit. I've even backed away from using gender pronouns when mentioning ex-girlfriends.

As for activism, I've dropped out twice in past years, before because of either something that was directly said about bisexuals being "traitors," or because of a fear that someone would say so. It was like, I have all this passion and energy for the cause, but gay people don't want me, so why am I killing myself for a bunch of people who don't want me around?

I thought I dropped out of activism for good when I got married. The sense that little straight-acting heterosexual privileged me didn't belong anywhere in the gay community was really strong - in my head. Little did I know I would immerse more DEEPLY after that! It was when those marriage amendments swept the elections in 2004 that I thought, Oh my god, that's MY community they're doing this to, I don't give a rat's tail if they want me or not, I'm doing something!!!! I not only signed myself up for LGBT organizational memberships, I signed my husband up as my partner. Even so, I was terrified the first time I went to a gay rights community forum after I got married. I was like: Do I still belong here??

[rainbow7]

Originally Posted by Zerbie

I not only signed myself up for LGBT organizational memberships, I signed my husband up as my partner. Even so, I was terrified the first time I went to a gay rights community forum after I got married. I was like: Do I still belong here??

Zerbie, you SO belong here! If you don't, NO ONE does....your faithfulness and energy are truly appreciated, and I'm glad you didn't drop out permanently!

Polly

[glbt_equality]

Originally Posted by Zerbie

As for activism, I've dropped out twice in past years, before because of either something that was directly said about bisexuals being "traitors," or because of a fear that someone would say so. It was like, I have all this passion and energy for the cause, but gay people don't want me, so why am I killing myself for a bunch of people who don't want me around?

I thought I dropped out of activism for good when I got married. The sense that little straight-acting heterosexual privileged me didn't belong anywhere in the gay community was really strong - in my head. Little did I know I would immerse more DEEPLY after that! It was when those marriage amendments swept the elections in 2004 that I thought, Oh my god, that's MY community they're doing this to, I don't give a rat's tail if they want me or not, I'm doing something!!!! I not only signed myself up for LGBT organizational memberships, I signed my husband up as my partner. Even so, I was terrified the first time I went to a gay rights community forum after I got married. I was like: Do I still belong here??

Zerbie - I think that the most anyone could ask of any of us is to be a "part-time" or "now & again" activist -- and hats off to you for the work you have done. It would be hypocritical of me to indict anyone for taking a "break" from activism after I have spent most of my own life on the sidelines. Moreover, I could have just as easily said that gay people don't show up at meetings -- because by and large, people who aren't personally affected by bigotry tend to wonder what all the fuss is about (the "fuss" about LGBT rights).

The heart of my personal revelation had more to do with the "Anti-Gay" activists... and that I'm wondering if their activism might not be fueled in large part by their own personal sexual identity embattlements.

Wouldn't it be remarkable to discover the people we are debating are, in reality, themselves trying to keep at bay their own demons and temptations. Maybe Senator Craig and James Dobson and many (most?) others are hoping, in the way of affirmation, that their struggle against recognizing the humanity of our community will somehow provide them with the strength to keep their own "straight masks" firmly in place!

... and how would the foreknowledge of such a remarkable dynamic inform our own activism? How different would be our approach if we understood, for example that -- "of course he will believe that my lifestyle was a choice... because for him, it was a choice!"

Anyway - that's my thought for the day. And I love the discussion all this has stirred. Of course, there may be no way of knowing for sure, but wouldn't it be incredible to discover that the 80% of all people are bisexual? Then we would really have to ask how 90% of a population (LGBT) could be so oppressed by 10% (totally straight) for so long. Now there's some food for thought!

Peace & love, Troy

[andrewlittle]

I read Troy's initial post and was intrigued. I saw some of the early comments and understood both the support for and the critique of what had been written. I felt decidedly unqualified to enter into the mix on this, though. And, now, I wonder why I felt that way. Many others have said it before, but I think part of the problem is the "sexual" part of the identifiers - actually, it may be that identifiers are used period.

A long time ago, I wrote a little bit about the "continuum" and how I perceived it. For refresher, if it's of any interest, see here: http://www.soulforce.org/forums/show...3&postcount=30
That seems like such a long time ago now and some thoughts have developed.

Even if we consider the continuum concept to be accurate, which I do, by understanding it in terms of sexuality we still carve out “moral” territories within the continuum. If we consider just the sexual, then I think we have the following:
At one end, we have people who are decidedly straight. At the other those who are decidedly gay/lesbian. These are those of us who only get sexually aroused by the kind of partner that fits our place in the continuum. Then, it seems obvious, that those dead smack in the middle are truly bisexual - they can be freely aroused by either gender.

We are more than penis and vagina, however. Heterosexual, homosexual and bisexual are labels that, by name, categorize us by our genitalia and what we do with them. Now, I know, sex is 90% what happens in your head and 10% what happens in your organs. But most people, even if they know this, consider sex to be physical - it is foreplay (for the lucky ones), arousal, intercourse of some description (even if its autoerotic) and orgasm (well, hopefully ).

Now, considering that social mores have long had a hard-on for things sexual, people become judged by that which much of the population, with its basically puritanical anal-retentiveness about sex, considers at least a little "dirty" and "secret" - and, therefore, titillating (which just adds to the dirty, secret thing). While there will be exceptions, how many of us have good, long, graphic discussions with our parents about what our moms and/or dads did with their particular genitals and where they put them, in what positions, how often, and the qualities of their orgasms?
"Hey, mom, tell me again how you like it when [dad or mom] flicks you clitoris with the tip of his/her tongue."
"Hey, dad, would you show me how to use that anal stimulator you've talked about so often?"
"Sally, sit down, let me tell you about how your dad made me orgasm five times when we played Geronimo coming through the pass."
(OMG, I'm gonna throw up - so, now, who's puritanical? ) For most of us, I think, this ain't happening.

Heterosexuals DO NOT generally refer to themselves as heterosexuals – as oriented genitals - they refer to themselves as people with multi-facetted lives - usually in terms of what they do, but not in terms of what they do with their genitals unless the issue of sexuality is broached. "I am a carpenter/teacher/whatever." "I enjoy gardening/sewing/whatever." "I am a Christian/Buddhist/whatever." What we don’t hear generally is Billy Bob Joe Salesman walking into a crowd of people and saying, “Hi! I’m Billy Bob. I’m heterosexual.” People would move away like there was a bad odor.

Heterosexuals DO, however, refer to, and think about, others by what they do with their genitals. "He's homosexual." "She's bisexual". In the minds of most, these terms immediately transfer to images of what someone does with their penis, vagina, tongue, anus, nipples, belly button (oops, sorry - I don't know how that got in there) or whatever. So, when we have been raised to be so inhibited that we don't want to imagine dad blowing a load into mom or dad, or mom squealing with delight in rapturous orgasm, or either one of them wanting to even remotely insinuate to their kids that these things happen, we use identifiers that immediately raise the specter of dirty, erotic, titillating, and oh so enjoyable (damn, honey, you're gonna have to whip me again for being a bad boy - we should close the windows, though) sex.

Now, where was I - I am sure there was more of a point to this than just being comic relief. Oh, yeah!

Most have been socialized to think that sex is a very private, very secret, and (for many) dirty thing. And in this environment, if we go telling people that they fall on a continuum of bisexuality - well, I think, there's gonna be a strong knee-jerk reaction - just like the strong knee-jerk reaction that GLBT people experience from the anal majority.

I, for one, while I know I fall somewhere on the continuum of sexuality, am not sexually aroused by men. Sorry guys, no insult intended. I've even been curious and checked out some websites that should have aroused me if I was arouse-able by men - and, nope, it ain't happening. I realize this isn’t scientific, but I’m not in the practice of putting electrodes on my private parts – so anecdotal will have to do.

That said, I can be and have been intimately close emotionally with men. There are men I dearly love. There are men I have, or would be comfortable, holding in an embrace when they are in need of comfort or closeness. There are men that "arouse" me emotionally and mentally, "stimulate" me in many ways - just not genitally. Does that make me purely 100% heterosexual - I personally don't think so. I am more than my penis. I am capable of – actually, I need – emotion involvement with people of the same and opposite gender. I think that is true for most.

But, if I was socialized in a more puritanical way, considering this as an indicator of bisexuality would scare the shit out of me - I would probably be rampant in my denial and quite possibly engage in verbal, or even physical, abuse of those who even remotely reminded myself that I was a little "off center". Oh, wait a minute - I DID DO THAT in my previous "life" because I WAS socialized that way.

This even works within the GLBT community. Considering things sexual – with the titillating aspects, but also the intimate aspects that so easily raise specters of vulnerability and rejection – leaves bisexual people in something of a “no-man’s land” with regard to moral territorial norms for those who believe they are distinctly homosexual. Despite having come to terms (possibly) with our puritanical puckering about our own sexuality, we are faced with people who can be aroused by people who match our particular criteria and, most importantly, those who DON’T. We all have our ICK factors. I believe this has the same root as heterosexual judgment. It is a bias, based still on socialization, which has to be overcome by the person holding the bias.

I don’t really know if I’ve made any salient points or added to the conversation in any way, but these are thoughts bubbling up from this discussion so far.

[Zerbie]

OMG Andy!!!!!!

How did I fail to absorb any of that when it was originally posted?! (Referring to the previous post you linked us to.)

Oh how awful. How logical. It explains everything. And it's another illustration on the importance of creating positive, uplifting thoughts and emotions in the people around us. Otherwise, we feed into more of the kind of thing you were caught in, and as we react in those traps, we escalate the traps that other people are caught in. . . . icky yucky nasty downward cycle.

These things are essential to understand. Thank you for sharing that (again), Andy.

[Donny]

Originally Posted by glbt_equality

Some of the recent news stories, combined with more of the same over the past few decades, have got me thinking about a fresh way of understanding an "adversarial viewpoint." Here's what I came up with:

Bisexuality and the Conservative Agenda



These people are terrified that recognizing gay humanity will cause in our country a gay “epidemic”… where all sorts of formerly “straight” people will begin “choosing” a gay lifestyle. The fear that making gay “ok” will therefore destroy the very fabric of the American family… that we’ll all start running around naked and making love in the streets… that cats and dogs will start sleeping together… “It’ll be anarchy, I tell you!”

Who would think such a thing?

--Troy Carlyle

Gay Pride parades are a good place to start. As a conservative Christian, what happens "in the streets" at those "celebrations," lends support to the anything goes nature of the GLBT culture that many of us parents (and not just Christian parents) teach our children is harmful to their future. And even in the most hedonistic of straight bars, it is hardly likely that a man or a woman will have sex with dozens and dozens of differnt people in one night. If Christians heard the GLBT community talk about abstinence as an important issue TO Gay Marriage, this would dispell the recruitment and pederasty aspect of what many of us see as happening "in" the Gay community TO our children. And on another note, this "questioning youth" aspect of the GLBT community that you neglected, are there ANY instances where a GLBT (PFLAG or GLSEN authority) shows a "questioning youth" that they are NOT indeed G,L,B or, T? Any such examples would go a long way to dispelling uneasiness. I don't visit Gay websites like PFLAG and GLSEN, but wouldn't mind if morality was anything similar to what I see in the Christian worldview.

[keltic63]

Originally Posted by Donny

Gay Pride parades are a good place to start. As a conservative Christian, what happens "in the streets" at those "celebrations," lends support to the anything goes nature of the GLBT culture that many of us parents (and not just Christian parents) teach our children is harmful to their future. And even in the most hedonistic of straight bars, it is hardly likely that a man or a woman will have sex with dozens and dozens of differnt people in one night.

• Mardi Gras.
• Swinging Lifestyle, which by the way has more participants by actual numbers than the entire lgbt community.
• Clothing Optional resorts.

If Christians heard the GLBT community talk about abstinence as an important issue TO Gay Marriage, this would dispell the recruitment and pederasty aspect of what many of us see as happening "in" the Gay community TO our children. And on another note, this "questioning youth" aspect of the GLBT community that you neglected, are there ANY instances where a GLBT (PFLAG or GLSEN authority) shows a "questioning youth" that they are NOT indeed G,L,B or, T? Any such examples would go a long way to dispelling uneasiness. I don't visit Gay websites like PFLAG and GLSEN, but wouldn't mind if morality was anything similar to what I see in the Christian worldview.

Perhaps you should go to those sites and find out about what they promote.

[Zerbie]

(Trying not to type in all capital letters. . . . )

It is the straight community that has the hubris (and irrationality) to pronounce that gay kids are straight. The straight community recruits gay people all the time, not just youngsters.

Everyone I have yet encountered in the gay community with whom I have had such a conversation is FAR MORE hesitant about having young people label their sexuality or come out than the youngsters themselves often are. What one usually hears from the gay community is something like: Don't be in a hurry to make a conclusion about who you are. If you're gay, we love you. If you're straight, we love you.

It's not an orientation that matters. It is the heart of the person that matters. That heart which must be respected, validated, and sadly all too often, protected.

[Matt Algren]

Originally Posted by Donny

If Christians heard the GLBT community talk about abstinence as an important issue TO Gay Marriage, this would dispell the recruitment and pederasty aspect of what many of us see as happening "in" the Gay community TO our children.

First things first, did you just insinuate that pederasty is a part of the mainstream gay community? Because if you did, I think we've moved beyond the "Let's talk in the Foyer" stage.

Secondly, yep, there's an abstinence section of the gaychristian.net site. Weird that it took me a whole two seconds to find, but you've just been supposing it doesn't exist because we all know how The Gays are always having sex sex sex. If there aren't any kids around, sometimes They even do it with each other!!!

Also, it's important to note that The Gays are usually excluded by design, since state funding is currently given only for an abstinence-until-marriage program and we can't get married in the first place. Bills to close this loophole have been dead in committee for some time.

Interesting Catch-22, isn't it?