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Old 10-20-2007, 09:16 PM
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Pablo Rafael Pablo Rafael is offline
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Default BIBLE DISCUSSION: Galatians Chap. 2 - Oct 21-28

This thread is for all study, thoughts and reflections on the second chapter of Galatians.
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For I am convinced that neither life nor death...neither the present nor the future nor anything in all creation will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 8:38-39
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Old 10-21-2007, 06:24 AM
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Pablo Rafael Pablo Rafael is offline
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Default Legalism vs. Faith

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As for those who seemd to be important - whatever they were makes no difference to me; God does not judge by external appearances. v.6

A person is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. v.16
Right now I am reading Bruce Bawer's book Stealing Jesus: How Fundamentalism Betrays Christianity. Though I disagree with him on his undertanding of scripture, he makes a distinction between the two sides of Christianity as "The church of law" and "The church of love".

The "church of the law" are legalists who want to impose man-made rules on others. They want to judge people by outward apperance. They have made "Christianity" a list of rules. People are good "Christians" when they follow the letter of the law. Hellfire awaits those who disagree. I think most people see Christianity as adhereance to the rules. Paul combts this very problem in his day.

The "church of love" are those who believe that we are a people of faith and are motivated by that faith to live out lives of love. The message of Christ is one of love. All the customs, regulations and practices are useful only if they come from faith and are motivated by love.

I see among the LGBT community in general a skepticism (if not downright hostility many times) to Christianity because the "church of law" seems to be the side of Christianity that dominates in American culture. We need Saint Paul to come today and take fundamentalist Christianity to task for making the church a church of rules that ignores the message of faith and refuses to show forth the love of God.
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For I am convinced that neither life nor death...neither the present nor the future nor anything in all creation will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 8:38-39

Last edited by Pablo Rafael; 10-21-2007 at 06:26 AM. Reason: typo
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Old 10-21-2007, 08:45 PM
antonyh antonyh is offline
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Default Justification by faith

Justification, God's act of declaring a sinner righteous by faith alone, is the center of the Christian faith. Martin Luther wrote in the Smalcald Articles:

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The first and chief article is this: Jesus Christ, our God and Lord, died for our sins and was raised again for our justification (Romans 3:24-25). He alone is the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world (John 1:29), and God has laid on Him the iniquity of us all (Isaiah 53:6). All have sinned and are justified freely, without their own works and merits, by His grace, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, in His blood (Romans 3:23-25). This is necessary to believe. This cannot be otherwise acquired or grasped by any work, law, or merit. Therefore, it is clear and certain that this faith alone justifies us... Nothing of this article can be yielded or surrendered, even though heaven and earth and everything else falls (Mark 13:31).
Calvin, in the Institutes, says that we are justified in our union with Christ:

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I acknowledge that we are devoid of this incomparable gift until Christ become ours. Therefore, to that union of the head and members, the residence of Christ in our hearts, in fine, the mystical union, we assign the highest rank, Christ when he becomes ours making us partners with him in the gifts with which he was endued. Hence we do not view him as at a distance and without us, but as we have put him on, and been ingrafted into his body, he deigns to make us one with himself, and, therefore, we glory in having a fellowship of righteousness with him. (Book III, Chapter 11).
This is genuinely an astonishing invitation. There is nothing we can do to be in union with God. No work, no law, no merit will get us there...just faith in the work of Christ on our behalf and our mystical union with Christ.

This is so different from other religions. In Buddhism Enlightenment is no free gift but the result of personal discipline and the hard work of meditation and the eight-fold path.

I think the misunderstanding of Justification (and its implications) stands at the heart of the Religious Right's holy war against LGBT people. By protecting "family values" they are uplifting works, law and merit as the standards of their goodness and godliness. They are establishing a culture of law and misunderstanding their own wickedness (eek I sound like Calvin). Justification by faith says that there is absolutely nothing you can lift up to make you righteous before God. NOTHING.

This is so radical when you think about it.

Last edited by antonyh; 10-21-2007 at 09:27 PM. Reason: minor word changes
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Old 10-23-2007, 02:24 PM
BenL BenL is offline
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Default Speechless

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19 For through the law I died to the law, so that I might live to God. I have been crucified with Christ; 20 and it is no longer I who live, but it is Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. 21 I do not nullify the grace of God; for if justification comes through the law, then Christ died for nothing.
I remain speechless before this passage. It never fails to tie my spiritual tongue. There is so much here. Paul puts us with him on the cross with Jesus, not just taking up our crosses as the Gospel writer exhorts. Contrary to what we have been taught since we were wee ones, the principal work is love, not obedience. The principal identification is spiritual, not tribal. I have hit a rough spot in my counseling, the part where the hard work seems endless and without reward. I cling to this passage: it is no longer I who live but Christ who lives in me.
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When you can transform the war and violence in yourself, then you can truly begin to help others find peace. Thich Nhat Hanh
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Old 10-23-2007, 02:38 PM
BenL BenL is offline
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Default That's me!

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Originally Posted by u-dog View Post
Amen, Brother Ben!
Hey, I used to be Brother Ben! That was a long time ago. Kept it as a nickname.

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Originally Posted by u-dog View Post
You are so right. This is the CENTER of Paul's gospel. It is, as Antony points out ... AMAZINGLY RADICAL. It is simply breath-taking. It kicks the legs out from under the Pharisees of every age. I love the phrase "The principal work is love, not obedience!" Did you make that up? If so, can I use it as my signature?
Yeah, I made it up, but I don't suppose I'm the first or will be the last to say it. At least I hope not. Help yourself.
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When you can transform the war and violence in yourself, then you can truly begin to help others find peace. Thich Nhat Hanh
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Old 10-23-2007, 07:35 PM
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Pablo Rafael Pablo Rafael is offline
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...it is Christ who lives in me.
Everyone, your comments have been inspiring. If I could only keep this verse in my mind 24 hours a day, I wonder how my actions would be different. Since we have been saved by the radical idea of salvation from God by grace, we are free to really love others. I like how some of the orthodox Jews wear the Bible verses in those little boxes on their forheads. This verse would be one verse in that box if I were wearing one.

Jesus showed love in all its forms to a world that often didn't accept that love. He was forgiving and compassionate to those who failed or didn't understand. He welcomed the outcasts. In fact the ONLY group of people Jesus really attacks are those church people who have enslaved others by a legalism of their own making, the pharisees.

Legalism seeks to enslave. Those who are bound by a religion of rules are not free to love. God's forgiveness and acceptance of everyone allows us to love freely without fear or punishment. Christ's love can flow out through US. How awesome is that!

Pablo
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For I am convinced that neither life nor death...neither the present nor the future nor anything in all creation will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 8:38-39
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Old 10-23-2007, 09:17 PM
antonyh antonyh is offline
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Default The difficult discussion about sin

I wanted to bring up the difficult subject of sin. I extracted a section from Calvin's Institutes, Book 3, Chapter 12. It is his chapter right after Justification by faith:

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Let us not decline to descend from this contemplation of the divine perfection, to look into ourselves without flattery or blind self-love. It is not strange that we are so deluded in this matter, seeing none of us can avoid that pestilential self-indulgence, which, as Scripture proclaims, is naturally inherent in all: “Every way of a man is right in his own eyes,” says Solomon (Prov. 21:2). And again, “All the ways of a man are clean in his own eyes,” (Prov. 16:2). What then? does this hallucination excuse him? No, indeed, as Solomon immediately adds, “The Lord weigheth the spirits;” that is, while man flatters himself by wearing an external mask of righteousness, the Lord weighs the hidden impurity of the heart in his balance. Seeing, therefore, that nothing is gained by such flattery, let us not voluntarily delude ourselves to our own destruction. To examine ourselves properly, our conscience must be called to the judgment-seat of God. His light is necessary to disclose the secret recesses of wickedness which otherwise lie too deeply hid. Then only shall we clearly perceive what the value of our works is; that man, so far from being just before God, is but rottenness and a worm, abominable and vain, drinking in “iniquity like water.” For “who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? not one,” (Job 14:5). Then we shall experience the truth of what Job said of himself: “If I justify myself, mine own mouth shall condemn me: if I say I am perfect, it shall prove me perverse,” (Job 9:20). Nor does the complaint which the prophet made concerning Israel apply to one age only. It is true of every age, that “all we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way,” (Isaiah 53:6). Indeed, he there comprehends all to whom the gift of redemption was to come. And the strictness of the examination ought to be continued until it have completely alarmed us, and in that way prepared us for receiving the grace of Christ. For he is deceived who thinks himself capable of enjoying it, until he have laid aside all loftiness of mind. There is a well-known declaration, “God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace to the humble,” (1 Pet. 5:5).
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/calvin/institutes.v.xiii.html
The "T" in TULIP for the Presbyterians is Total Depravity. You have to understand your total depravity under the search light of God's judgment before you will fully enjoy the grace of God in Justification.

We have talked on this thread about the beauty of God's unconditional pardon in Justification, but the other side of that is the discussion of sin.

How do you view sin? Can you even begin to be Orthodox without saying you have been delivered by Christ from slavery to sin? What is the core of sinfulness?

Last edited by antonyh; 10-23-2007 at 09:39 PM.
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Old 10-24-2007, 10:13 AM
BenL BenL is offline
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Default Heavy stuff

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Originally Posted by antonyh View Post
We have talked on this thread about the beauty of God's unconditional pardon in Justification, but the other side of that is the discussion of sin.

How do you view sin? Can you even begin to be Orthodox without saying you have been delivered by Christ from slavery to sin? What is the core of sinfulness?
With all due respect to the Calvinists among us, this is heavy stuff that could bear some plain talk in contemporary English.

I have faced my "depravity," and it ain't a pretty sight. After years of trying, I know that I am powerless to atone for my lack of faith -- worse, my lack of love. Even though I have experienced the joy of spirtual healing, I still am aware of sinfulness in my heart of hearts. The hardest thing to do is to own my own s**t and to quit making excuses for it. An equally difficult spiritual task is to celebrate the goodness in myself as a gift from God and not a human accomplishment. I want so much to be the center of my own universe.

Having been brought up Catholic, I have never felt comfortable with the "justification" idiom, although I recognize that this is what I'm talking about. The only way I know how to solve this puzzle is by falling back on this verse in Chapter 2: "It is no longer I who live but Christ who lives in me." It is the only way I can reconcile the war between sin and salvation that I experience at the core of my personhood.

If I am missing the point that Calvin was making, somebody please enlighten me.
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When you can transform the war and violence in yourself, then you can truly begin to help others find peace. Thich Nhat Hanh
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