Are there any Christians on this site anymore?

[awediot]

You know who you are. Speak up.

[u-dog]

Originally Posted by awediot

You know who you are. Speak up.

Well... what am I? chopped liver?

[tdogg]

Depends on what your definition of "Christian" is.

I have some spiritual beliefs based in Christianity, which to me is the teaching of Christ. I'm not necessarily a "Paulian". But I seriously doubt I would be a Christian by your definition?

[BruceChris]

I am a student of the teachings of Christ. Beyond that, I may or may not fit your definition of a Christian. I would like to live up to my signature line, but I know that I don't, a lot of the time.

Bruce Chris

[Gennee]

I'm a Christian, Bruce. I am also a student of the teachings of Christ.


Gennee

[awediot]

Originally Posted by Gennee

I'm a Christian, Bruce. I am also a student of the teachings of Christ.


Gennee

Thanks for the reply Gennee.

One thing about Christians is they will first just say "yeah, I am...", as though they all know exactly what is being asked and do not have to initially think about the answer... Then they may elaborate and qualify on their affirmative...but the term itself is most importantly an affirmation that doesn't care what this world has done to, nor thinks about it...

~I am too... A rotten, freakishly conservative, hypocritical, way to nonjudgmental, reluctant and blessed Christian who chose to be so, no more than I chose to be gay... Sadly, I am disillusioned by the orthodox/fundamental church that are my brethren who I'm meant to know forever, and often feel shame at the association the label brings. There are more liberal, loving and understanding congregations who radiate spiritual fruits that the mainstream mostly just judges others by... Many refuse to even believe such creatures as us can exist. I am a heretic to them and I may darken their Churches door, but I cannot join, nor so much as break bread with them... I've told many "so don't call me a Christian..." It doesn't change what I believe or who I am...

I am torn between recoiling away from the gay community as I am from what passes as the Christian Organized Religion... I am...just trying to figure out SoulForce again... Who are they, and what do they want, and can I ever call them "we", as I used to feel like doing. ~That God has ensured my knowledge, belief and faith not hinge on men, is a gift I am barely beginning to let myself appreciate.

[awediot]

Originally Posted by BruceChris

I am a student of the teachings of Christ. Beyond that, I may or may not fit your definition of a Christian. I would like to live up to my signature line, but I know that I don't, a lot of the time.

Bruce Chris

my post to tdogg. > Typically a Christians...


Is there anything in particular about how Christians are to treat people that hasn't been expressed by numerous other philosophers and moral teachers? If it's not a belief, but an act which singles out believers, what is the act that distinguishes them?

[pied piper]

Originally Posted by awediot

my post to tdogg. > Typically a Christians...


Is there anything in particular about how Christians are to treat people that hasn't been expressed by numerous other philosophers and moral teachers? If it's not a belief, but an act which singles out believers, what is the act that distinguishes them?

The difference is that the action is motivated by inspiration from God.

[awediot]

Originally Posted by tdogg

Depends on what your definition of "Christian" is.

I have some spiritual beliefs based in Christianity, which to me is the teaching of Christ. I'm not necessarily a "Paulian". But I seriously doubt I would be a Christian by your definition?

Typically a Christians believes in the one of a kind divine nature of Jesus Christ, that His death was the sacrifice we can accept as the price owed for our sins, making Him "The Savior", that He rose from the grave, ascending to His Father's (God's) side, and that He will return as Lord over the new Earth.

Even that may be elaborating on:

Romans 10:9
That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

...but it has been a fairly cut and dried, irreducible description of one who calls them self a Christian for a long time.

[awediot]

Originally Posted by u-dog

Well... what am I? chopped liver?

I do not know... That is why I asked.


(but not chopped liver would be a safe bet...

[Matt Algren]

Um...yeah. Why?

[baumgrenze]

Originally Posted by awediot

You know who you are. Speak up.

I believe I understand how you feel, if a straight, 70-year-old can approach that condition.

Several times I've tried to reach out to this forum community. Others get responses, positive or negative. I seem to get ignored and excluded.

My most recent attempt was yesterday. See response #10 in:

http://www.soulforce.org/forums/showthread.php?t=6114

Perhaps I am approaching the 'wrong' community. I, for one, believe that it is essential that we pray for influential leaders like Rick Warrren, for example. He has involved Saddleback in an AIDS ministry. In the process he has developed a 'friendship' (at least a mutually respectful social relationship) with a married gay couple. I believe we should pray for this relationship. I believe that it can teach Rick Warren things that reasoned argument never will.

Such a relationship changed Jenne Dehmlow (I met her when my wife and I attended the 1999 Evangelicals Concerned Connection in Tacoma.) Other conservative evangelicals have changed, the late Dr. Lewis Smedes (Professor of Christian Ethics at Fuller Seminary,) Dr. Jack Rogers (Professor of Theological Philosophy at Fuller Seminary for 17 years,) Dr. Arlo Duba (Former Director of the Chapel at Princeton Theological Seminary)...If you don't know these names, look them up. Read the stories of how they changed their perspective. Change can happen. One very powerful way we can make it happen in through prayer!

John

[Daniel]

Originally Posted by baumgrenze

I believe I understand how you feel, if a straight, 70-year-old can approach that condition.

Several times I've tried to reach out to this forum community. Others get responses, positive or negative. I seem to get ignored and excluded.

Sorry you feel excluded. However, after being on this forum for over 3 years, I can tell you that I can remember many times when I labored over a post and it didn't get a response.

If you've been around a while you may have noticed that many of the regulars that have been here for a long while are not currently participating. There has even been several threads devoted to the topic. My own participation has ebbed and flowed. My sense is that this forum is in a transition period. What will the future bring? I don't know. But if you stick around, I'm sure you will have ample opportunity to become a potent presence.

[nmwolfboy]

i didn't say that i disbelieved that Christ is the Savior, only with the doctrine of substitutionary atonement, specifically the idea of penal substitution.

Christus Victor, from Theopedia:

Christus Victor (Christ the Victor) is a view of the atonement taken from the title of Gustaf Aulén's groundbreaking book, first published in 1931, where he drew attention back to the early church's Ransom theory. In Christus Victor, the atonement is viewed as divine conflict and victory over the hostile powers that hold humanity in subjection. Aulén argues that the classic Ransom theory is not so much a rational systematic theory as it is a drama, a passion story of God triumphing over the powers and liberating humanity from the bondage of sin. As Gustav Aulén writes, "the work of Christ is first and foremost a victory over the powers which hold mankind in bondage: sin, death, and the devil."[1]

The Ransom Theory was predominant in the early church and for the first thousand years of church history and supported by all Greek Church Fathers from Irenaeus to John of Damascus. To mention only the most important names Origen, Athanasius, Basil the Great, Gregory of Nyssa, Gregory of Nazianzus, and John Chrysostom. The Christus Victor view was also dominant among the Latin Fathers of the Patristic period including Ambrose, Augustine, Leo the Great, and Gregory the Great.

A major shift occurred when Anselm of Canterbury published his Cur Deos Homo around 1097 AD which marks the point where the predominate understanding of the atonement shifted from the ransom theory to the Satisfaction Doctrine in the Roman Catholic Church and subsequently the Protestant Church. The Eastern Orthodox Church still holds to the Ransom or Christus Victor view. This is built upon the understanding of the atonement put forward by Irenaeus, called "recapitulation".[1]

As the term Christus Victor indicates, the idea of “ransom” should not be seen in terms (as Anselm did) of a business transaction, but more of a rescue or liberation of humanity from the slavery of sin. Unlike the Satisfaction or Penal-substitution views of the atonement rooted in the idea of Christ paying the penalty of sin to satisfy the demands of justice, the Christus Victor view is rooted in the incarnation and how Christ entered into human misery and wickedness and thus redeemed it. Irenaeus called this "Recapitulation" (re-creation). As it is often expressed: "Jesus became what we are so that we could become what he is".

These might seem like really tiny theological differences, but i see them as increasingly divergent. The Eastern Orthodox Church still maintains a ransom/Christus Victor stance, though the Western church relegated it into the background around the time of the great East/West Schism.

[baumgrenze]

Originally Posted by nmwolfboy

i didn't say that i disbelieved that Christ is the Savior, only with the doctrine of substitutionary atonement, specifically the idea of penal substitution.

Christus Victor, from Theopedia:

These might seem like really tiny theological differences, but i see them as increasingly divergent. The Eastern Orthodox Church still maintains a ransom/Christus Victor stance, though the Western church relegated it into the background around the time of the great East/West Schism.

Thank you, wolfboy, for the lesson in theology.

I have on my to do list today to write to Atty General Holder. The President sent an email yesterday saying I was to roll up my sleeves.

In addition to a few words about the Justice Department's repulsive response to the Prop 8 federal suit and their inaction on "Don't Ask Don't Tell," I want to draw to his attention this website:

http://change.gov/agenda/civil_rights_agenda/

Just above the section on "Support for the LGBT Community" there is a heading that reads:

Reduce Crime Recidivism by Providing Ex-Offender Support

I will urge him to advocate the approach that seeks to reduce recidivism rather than exacting vengeance for a crime committed. It's not soft on crime or tough on crime, it is smart on crime. I believe this approach also works much better for Matthew 6:12, if we really mean what we pray. Framed properly, this should be a slam-dunk with Republican base. At a minimum it will involve them in spin and squirm on a major scale.

Thanks again,

John

[colinashante]

this post really got me thinking especially once i started reading the responses it made me think even more. it seems to me that people no adays get caught up in the label of "Christian". I grew up in the Seventh-Day Adventist denomination and made the concious decision to leave that denomination for the same reason. People get so caught up in the identification of other christians in human social construct. which my religion and my connection with god is something that is specifically tailored to me, and that the way I express it is wrong because an outsider looking in will never know the depths of struggle on my journey to come to know god.

I really enjoyed your quote from romans up there. I had one to give you in return however the exact reference has escaped me but I think it is in matthew(maybe romans) when he is talking about how hypocrits proclaim that they are christs followers, they demonstrated on street corners how awesome at prayer and the depths of their commitment to god...but those where also the people who were buying and selling merchandise in gods temples...that passage later goes on to state the relationship between a person and god is to be done silently behind closed doors where no one can see you. its a way for you to get intimate with your creator and the god that you serve. it goes on to state fairly shortly after that that christians could identify each other because of the things that they do but od not boast about. to quote the NIV version "you have faith. I have deeds"...people today like people back in the day are so caught up in identifying as christians and linking up as christians when taking on that label(not that there is anything wrong with that because for some people it works really well for and others not so much. again going back to ones relationship to god) can be so devastating to ones faith, because of all the baggage that comes along with being a christian and that it causes such a fracture with in the cultural fabric of all gods children...

I am going to stop myself because I could go on talking about this for hours :0)

thank you! thank you! thank you for this post I have learned alot from the conversation and you from this post!

[koneill08]

I'm new to this site, and this thread is interesting to me. I know it's old and probably won't be responded to now, but...Thought I'd give it a try anyway.

One person asked "Is there anything in particular about how Christians are to treat people that hasn't been expressed by numerous other philosophers and moral teachers? If it's not a belief, but an act which singles out believers, what is the act that distinguishes them?"

I would have to say it's a combination of belief and acts. Because faith without works is dead, but works without faith is equally as dead, at least of any spiritual life. The act that distinguishes Christians is love. John 13:35 says "by this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another."

I think the essence of true christianity is spiritual. There are many things that can be learned from other "religions" that are also true for Christians. It doesn't mean their way is the right way or better way, but it does mean that we all can (regardless of our beliefs) learn something about God and share that with others and there are no property rights to what is or isn't God. Only God can do that. Each person is made differently. No two people are alike, like snowflakes. But each person is made to display something of God that nobody else in the world through time and space has ever displayed about him. He/She is infinite in His/her wonders and I don't think there is anything wrong with "adopting" parts of what another religion has learned about God. It's the take the meat and leave the bones thing, let it work for you. If it doesn't, scrap it. Of course, as one other person said, you can open up a huge can of worms with this discussion, the kind that says is there absolute truth or not. But my journey has led me to believe that there is both absolute and relative truth. And they can co-exist together. That's what makes this journey so interesting. If it was a clearly laid out black and white plan then we really would have no use for our reasoning and judgment skills would we? We would just be robots on an assembly line and life (all of life, not just individual lives) would have no purpose.

Anyway, this probably won't get responded to. Not because nobody is out there, but because it's such an old post most people won't probably look at it. But again, thought I'd give my two cents, for what they are worth in this economy!

Enjoy.

[Masood]

Yes I am a Child of God and i am a christian , I wrote a full letter but I have no Idea where it went! I'll write again as it is very important to me. I am a christian from a Muslim Gay back Ground 22 years ago Jesus came to my heart and changed my life and asked me to follow him, I left my country my siblings and my profession and all that I had and followed him for the past twenty one years I thought Jesus has made me a heterosexual though deep within me I knew my orientation has not changed but because of the family and the beautiful children he had gave me I chose to think of myself as a heterosexual man and it is only one year that I have decided to be who I am and I want the whole world to know that I am a Homosexual Christian Man who has been saved by the Grace of Jesus and I call myself a born again Christian who is following his saviour irrespective of his sexual orientation and when I go to Glory I am sure many saints from GLBT community who are sitting along with Paul and Peter and the rest of the followers including Merry Megdalen and other Merry's at the feet of Jesus Oh yes we will all be there and I am sure what we have seen and tasted partly in this world we will see and feel in full God bless you Masood.

[baumgrenze]

Originally Posted by nmwolfboy

i didn't say that i disbelieved that Christ is the Savior, only with the doctrine of substitutionary atonement, specifically the idea of penal substitution.

Christus Victor, from Theopedia:

These might seem like really tiny theological differences, but i see them as increasingly divergent. The Eastern Orthodox Church still maintains a ransom/Christus Victor stance, though the Western church relegated it into the background around the time of the great East/West Schism.

On the 23d I thanked nmwolfboy for his lesson in theology. Like any good chemist, I went off to do research. I found something I think others might appreciate. Be patient, it is long, but it is interesting teaching. Take a look at:

http://sharktacos.com/God/cross_intro.shtml

and follow the several sections of the website. I've read that Derek Flood, the author, it thinking about publishing this material as a small book. See if you don't think we should encourage him to do so.

John

[awediot]

Originally Posted by baumgrenze

I believe I understand how you feel, if a straight, 70-year-old can approach that condition.

Several times I've tried to reach out to this forum community. Others get responses, positive or negative. I seem to get ignored and excluded.

hi John...it is nice to meet you... I'm 44, a strangely conservative, comfortably heretical Christian since I can remember, who happens to be gay...

~I've got a squirming can of worms I'm feeling compelled to open about and on this forum. It is clearly not a Christ centered site or discussion board (not that there's anything wrong with that)... I thought it was when I first came here, but found it to be more ecumenical, "Spiritual but not religious" and deeply entrenched in "New Age", polytheistic thought and hopes... (I could and will go on at some point...)

Not to steal away the dwindling membership (like, where is everybody?), but you may really enjoy GCN - The gay Christian network site and forum. It is much more geared toward the unique issues surrounding homosexuality and Christianity, and is not so much politically/activist motivated, as theologically and philosophically. (it is also much larger and more active) (I'm "Gamel" over there...and my real name is Dean)

~I'm happy to have met you, and even though a straight, 70 year old man can't really "get" the whole queer experience, your obvious empathy, open mindedness and under-appreciated wisdom will more than make up for the flaw of your heterosexuality ...

My most recent attempt was yesterday. See response #10 in:

http://www.soulforce.org/forums/showthread.php?t=6114

Perhaps I am approaching the 'wrong' community. I, for one, believe that it is essential that we pray for influential leaders like Rick Warrren, for example. He has involved Saddleback in an AIDS ministry. In the process he has developed a 'friendship' (at least a mutually respectful social relationship) with a married gay couple. I believe we should pray for this relationship. I believe that it can teach Rick Warren things that reasoned argument never will.

Such a relationship changed Jenne Dehmlow (I met her when my wife and I attended the 1999 Evangelicals Concerned Connection in Tacoma.) Other conservative evangelicals have changed, the late Dr. Lewis Smedes (Professor of Christian Ethics at Fuller Seminary,) Dr. Jack Rogers (Professor of Theological Philosophy at Fuller Seminary for 17 years,) Dr. Arlo Duba (Former Director of the Chapel at Princeton Theological Seminary)...If you don't know these names, look them up. Read the stories of how they changed their perspective. Change can happen. One very powerful way we can make it happen in through prayer!

John

I agree in principle, but have some block on petitioning for prayer chains and the like... Prayer is a very interesting topic in general... maybe a new thread on it specifically...

See ya around, and thanks for the ... AND mutual perspective... hope to see ya at GCN.