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#1
09-04-2009, 09:38 PM
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While we're on the topic of mysticism
What is 'the holy spirit?' Is this one of many 'things' in Christianity that is not agreed upon by various churches and their respective traditions? Or is there general agreement about what it is? And WHAT is it?
Is it an element? Does it have properties? Is it considered alive? Is it considered to be part of God, or Godself, or just what? What does it do? How does one recognize it and discern it from other 'things,' properties or elements? Does it influence human life a little or a lot, and is it difficult to live with?
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*** Never linger too long with the ignorant, throw stones at their talk. Walk only with the lovers, the mirror of the soul gets rusty when dipped in muddy water. -Rumi 
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#2
09-04-2009, 09:51 PM
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It is of God, and it has our best interests at heart
Near the end of one of the gospels, I think it was John, Jesus says that he must leave us, but that he will leave us the Holy Spirit
"But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.” Those who receive the gift of the Holy Ghost and remain worthy can enjoy His companionship throughout their lives. The Holy Ghost provides direction and comfort and testifies of truth". John, 14:26 http://www.theholyspirit.com/ It is part of the Trinity, and there is some dispute about exactly how we should view the Trinity. See also trinitarianism. You can Google most of this stuff yourself, but for some of the fine points, ask udog or Andy Bruce Chris Two trips to Google, and one to Wiki in the five minutes it took me to write this.
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"Christianity is not about what you believe, it is about how you treat other people; - with God's love" Last edited by BruceChris; 09-05-2009 at 09:07 AM.
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#3
09-04-2009, 10:35 PM
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Udog and Andy, and others who like to delve, are probably who/what I'm hoping to hear from in this context. I did once try a google search but what I recall now is that I did not find quite what I was looking for. (Though I could stand to do one again to get the basic points back into mind, since now I can't remember what I read. That was a couple months ago and when I did not find what I was looking for, I put it all out of mind.) There is something I am trying to cipher out which probably requires getting into the finer points of the topic.
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*** Never linger too long with the ignorant, throw stones at their talk. Walk only with the lovers, the mirror of the soul gets rusty when dipped in muddy water. -Rumi
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#5
09-05-2009, 11:33 AM
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Wikipedia
Thought I would check Wikipedia, just for fun, to see what the entry said. There is a lot there. However, the heading notes the entry "has issues". And considering the subject, I'm not surprised!
Make of it what you will. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Spirit Gonna wait to put my two cents in. Off the the Met Museum for the afternoon!
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Be the love you seek.
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#6
09-05-2009, 12:12 PM
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Yes, it is an interesting topic.
Curiosity arose earlier this summer when we were in Germany and all the stores closed in observation of Pentecost. It surprised me that my husband asked "What's Pentecost?" Usually it's me asking and he who explains things like this. But somewhere I had heard what Pentecost was so I explained it to him. That's when I began wondering whether there is a continuing tradition of a descent of fire or birds, of sudden radical transformations of individuals, or of non-ordinary phenomena, that remains within modern Christianity. Is this a subject that gets talked about? In particular, I am interested in the reasons behind the symbology as fire, as doves, and in the property of movement associated with this 'spirit.' What have been the visceral experiences behind assigning it the property of fire, or the body of a dove? Was it hot? Did it move in flickering or wing-like motions? Was there in fact a visceral element to the experience of the original Pentecost receivers and of later Christian mystics and saints? What properties has this spirit that it is called fire? What properties has it when it is called dove? In what ways does it move or produce movement in living beings? Where can I find these questions discussed?
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*** Never linger too long with the ignorant, throw stones at their talk. Walk only with the lovers, the mirror of the soul gets rusty when dipped in muddy water. -Rumi
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#7
09-06-2009, 10:27 PM
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 We've gotten several interesting and varied comments on the subject, but that doesn't mean I wasn't interested to also hear yours. Just in case you thought I wasn't interested, I am.
__________________
*** Never linger too long with the ignorant, throw stones at their talk. Walk only with the lovers, the mirror of the soul gets rusty when dipped in muddy water. -Rumi
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#8
09-06-2009, 10:35 PM
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Following the tangent that was offered
Wow, Daniel - that's overwhelming. So many different names and interpretations. . . is it impossible to sift through all of that, and all the discussions of holy spirits, etc? I think we would be dead before having even accumulated an outline in bullet point format. . . .
 But in brief, is this Sophia concept not talked about much in the mainstream culture? I don't hear about it from the people around me, and never did. Is it common or uncommon then, for people self-described as christians, to anthropomorphize ideals or energies? Meanwhile, reading what Daniel found and posted, I was strongly reminded of Hindu gods and goddesses. There are a lot of fairly direct parallels.
__________________
*** Never linger too long with the ignorant, throw stones at their talk. Walk only with the lovers, the mirror of the soul gets rusty when dipped in muddy water. -Rumi
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#9
09-07-2009, 09:36 AM
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I hadn't forgotten about you! My busy day turned into two busy days (actually Sunday is Half a busy day followed by Half a catatonic day -- church really takes it outa me.) Let me start with Sophia. Daniel's excerpt from Wikipedia is fascinating but doesn't seem to touch on the Hebrew beginnings of the idea. In mainstream western Protestantism "Sophia" is a product of the Wisdom tradition in ancient Hebrew thought (Proverbs, Psalms, Ecclesiastes, Job, Song of Solomon) Sophia is the personification of Divine Wisdom. She is understood to have preceded the creation and to have been active in the process of Creation. She is also closely associated with the law of Moses and study of the law is seen as essential in understanding Sophia. Embracing Sophia is associated with happiness and prosperity. Ignoring her or not seeking her is associated with chaos, oppression, and disaster. She is an aspect of God but is often depicted as dancing in the presence of God. She is actually more closely associated with the SECOND PERSON of the Trinity than with the Holy Spirit in Christian thought since the concept of "Sophia" or divine wisdom is very similar to John's concept of the "Logos" or "word" of God. In John the Logos is a personification of an eternal aspect of the divine which is present at and active in creation and also central to the process of the "Re-creation" (or redemption) of humanity. To seek the logos (incarnate in Jesus Christ) is to seek eternal life and happiness (both in this world and the next) and to turn from the logos is to court disaster. The Logos is more than just a person and more than just a "word" it is the internal "logic" of God ... a blueprint of the nature of God ... a glimpse at the heart of the divine. And the Logos is embodied in the life death and resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth. Conservative Christians don't like to think or talk about or even acknowledge Sophia for a couple of reasons. 1. Any aspect of God being feminine seriously freaks them out. Regardless of what they may say ... their God is a MAN. HE is a FATHER. HE is a KING Blah blah blah. Its a form of idolatry because what they are really worshipping is maleness. just my opinion of course. 2. Any suggestion that Christian ideas or concepts are not original to Christianity seriously freaks them out. That there was even a proto-understanding of the LOGOS before there was a Jesus Christ to reveal it undermines their exclusivist claims to truth. In the early 90's the was a PResbyterian women's conference called "Re-imagining" that focused heavily on the concept of "Sophia". ALL HELL BROKE LOOSE. In another age there would have been burnings at the stake. People STILL talk about it almost 20 years later. Yikes. Ok ... the Holy Spirit... in another post.
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#10
09-07-2009, 11:26 AM
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Zerbie, This is a very difficult thing to begin to talk about because it is hard to know where to begin (and where to stop  )Let me start with one REALLY important caveat. Any time a finite being begins to talk about an INfinite being ... the inevitable result is going to be nonsense. Because one definition of human language is "a verbal box" and one definition of "God" is "that which won't fit in a box" Having said that ... lets go. The Holy Spirit is God. It is an aspect of God's being. It is how we talk about our most intimate experiences of the divine. Christians and Jews understand God as being both "transcendant" (totally other) and "immanent" (totally and intimately present). This is paradox -- a mystical form of non-linear thought. The idea that it is possible for two or more logically inconsistent characteristics to be necessary aspects of the same phenomenon. Transcendence and immanence can neither be harmonized nor divided. When they are placed next to each other they create a dynamic tension. It is the dynamic tension which is the truth ... not the two (or more) poles that create the dynamic tension. True Dogmatic or Doctrinal language is always an attempt to create this "dynamic tension" which will reveal a truth that cannot be expressed or revealed in any other way. Think about the high wire acts at the circus. It requires two poles and a cable stretched between. The show cannot happen without these elements ... but they are not the show. The show is the tension contained in the cable that stretches between the poles. The show is what happens on the cable when the lady in the pink tutu and the parasol steps out onto the cable for the first time. The show is the tightness in the chests of the audience watching the lady in the pink tutu. In Christianity the truth is not the humanity of Jesus. The truth is not the divinity of Jesus. The truth is the tension between the humanity and the divinity of Jesus. The truth is what happens inside you when you begin to incorporate that tension between humanity and divinity into your own life. Jesus cannot logically be BOTH human and divine and yet he MUST be both. God CANNOT logically be both ONE and THREE but holding both of these aspects of God at the same time creates a dynamic tension that prevents us from reducing God to a manageable little reality that will fit neatly into our pigeon holes. The truth of who and what God is can only be experienced in the context of this dynamic tension... this paradox... this mystery. In other words, doctrinal language is not primarily descriptive language. It is primarily a creative and functional use of language. I use doctrinal language to create a space wherein I can experience the reality of a God I cannot describe. DOES THIS MAKE ANY SENSE AT ALL? IF So ... What is the Holy Spirit? It is an aspect of God. It is not the WHOLE of what God is. The Holy Spirit is that of God which is nearer to me than my own breath. The Holy Spirit is that which kindles in me the compassion of God when I am moved to respond to the brokeness of another human being. The Holy Spirit is that which gives me the courage to do what I know is right even though it is costly and dangerous. The Holy Spirit is what takes the cold, dead words of Scripture and transforms them into the life-giving word of God. The Holy Spirit is that which gives me words to say in the face of unutterable tragedy. The Holy Spirit is what enables me to find blessing in the midst of the shit that life sometimes dishes out. The Holy Spirit is what enables me to confidently put one foot in front of the other when I am walking around in a darkened world. I will stop now and let you guide me in what else I should say.
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#11
09-07-2009, 12:42 PM
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What I originally wanted to know is asked in post # 6. Meanwhile, back at the ranch:
Gosh, thank you.
There is a lot more substance in Christianity than I ever thought from the way people have talked about it. Why don't people discuss these matters of real interest instead of quoting (and mis-quoting) brief excerpts? In the churches I've visited, the sermons are so short and they never got anyplace near these important topics. Why not? This is the kind of information I was looking for when I was a little girl begging to be sent to Sunday School, which never happened. Based on what I've seen from churches since, I wouldn't have gotten this there. Does this never get discussed in the mainstream culture? And where's Andy? He recommended Juan de la Cruz and I am having an extraordinary time with a translation of Dark Night - every night in fact, for a few minutes before bed. I can hardly put it down to turn the light off. Why did no one recommend me to this book before?! I need to ask Andy some questions about the book - I think the chapter that doesn't make sense to me is because of the translation. The translator took some freedom to change meaning in certain places, which I'm watching for as I read. Quote:
When someone speaks about God nature in this way, just think of the single photon in a sealed experiment which is faced with two perforations and is supposed to choose which hole to travel through. Very simple choice: it travels through both holes simultaneously and emerges at the other side still a single photon. That is the nature of things. The pigeon holes are there in the everyday world for our convenience, but they are somewhat like numbers: representational. Back to the topic. You paint a very beautiful picture of the Holy Spirit. Is it ever harsh? Is it ever difficult to live with? Or only sweet? Does it move in phases? Does it impact your body? Is it distinguishable from the life force in animals and plants, or IS it the life force in animals and plants? As to what I was looking for in the first place with this thread, all my questions that still haven't been answered are in post #6. 
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*** Never linger too long with the ignorant, throw stones at their talk. Walk only with the lovers, the mirror of the soul gets rusty when dipped in muddy water. -Rumi
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#12
09-07-2009, 01:17 PM
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#13
09-07-2009, 03:24 PM
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Udog in black, Zerbie in blue except when in purple
Grrr. I've been typing and typing but because I typed inside the quote brackets the software thinks my message is too short to submit without typing some more. This is the some more.
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__________________
*** Never linger too long with the ignorant, throw stones at their talk. Walk only with the lovers, the mirror of the soul gets rusty when dipped in muddy water. -Rumi
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#14
09-07-2009, 03:35 PM
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So
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Ok. I am trying to be humorous. But it is interesting to think about.
__________________
Be the love you seek.
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#15
09-07-2009, 03:41 PM
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__________________
*** Never linger too long with the ignorant, throw stones at their talk. Walk only with the lovers, the mirror of the soul gets rusty when dipped in muddy water. -Rumi
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#17
09-07-2009, 04:22 PM
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#18
09-07-2009, 09:10 PM
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U are the best!
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__________________
DraneSpout.com
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#19
09-07-2009, 09:26 PM
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Left-brain dominant!
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Women have more access, more connective tissue between the hemisphere's in their brains. They start talking about something and go from thing to thing to thing (going back and forth between hemisphere's - between feeling and thought), and then wind up at their point, while men just go slam bam into what they want (no...I am not talking about sex but the same approach applies!). Why? Because of the connective tissue! It seems like such a simple thing, but it isn't. And yes, it also takes both sides of the brain to appreciate poetry. When I read about this (years ago), I really 'got it'. Those who can see the poetry in scripture express themselves quite differently that those who don't. Sorry for the tangent. But sometimes I think the thing to be able to do is to speak the the person one is speaking with in the manner in which they think, not what they think.
__________________
Be the love you seek.
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#20
12-14-2009, 08:12 AM
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While were on the topic of mysticism
Sister Cyounus,
Granted while this is your opinion, it is not the opinion of Islam. The Prophet was infallible according to Islam. I will ask Brother MPR to come on and elaborate because he is much more versed in this topic than I am. God bless US ALL Lion
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