Barking up the Wrong Tree?

[Pablo Rafael]

Sometimes I wonder whether the struggle to make gay marriage legal is the right approach.

Is marriage a legal matter or is it a religious matter?

I think it might be better for marriage equality if the government simply issued licenses for civil unions to any couple requesting one. Only the government could issue the license, not priests or other religious figures. The government would be in charge of the legal matters. The religious organizations could then perform marriages according to their own preferences and customs.

A majority of people in this country support legal rights for gay couples. The problem comes with marriage which is religious in background.

Maybe separation of church and state would gain us more than fighting for gay marriage state by state. Maybe that is where our energies should go.

[Daniel]

Originally Posted by Pablo Rafael

Sometimes I wonder whether the struggle to make gay marriage legal is the right approach.

Is marriage a legal matter or is it a religious matter?

I think it might be better for marriage equality if the government simply issued licenses for civil unions to any couple requesting one. Only the government could issue the license, not priests or other religious figures. The government would be in charge of the legal matters. The religious organizations could then perform marriages according to their own preferences and customs.

A majority of people in this country support legal rights for gay couples. The problem comes with marriage which is religious in background.

Maybe separation of church and state would gain us more than fighting for gay marriage state by state. Maybe that is where our energies should go.

It's both!

And they've tried Civil Unions in NJ and more than 10 % of couples have had to SUE to have their piece of paper recognized. Gee. Do straight couples have to do that?

I don't think so.

It's about MONEY and RECOGNITION. It's about being able to take care of the person you love. Recognition in the eyes of the God you don't or do believe in.

It's about LOVE.

The RIGHT to LOVE.

Of course you know this. I just don't know what you are losing your NERVE.

[Daniel]

Q. Why aren't straight people clamoring for civil unions?

A. The same reason that gay people aren't.

We all want love, we all want happiness. We all want the same stuff. Marriage. Not a Union.

Johnny...will you union me?

Doesn't sound right. Words really are important.

This boy isn't settling.

[bnmoore]

Opposite sex couples can marry outside of each other's faith without having to ask. Depending on who you ask some don't consider those unions blessed either.

What you're proposing isn't equality.

It also takes away the fun of calling divorced/remarried heteros serial bigamists that are going to burn in hell.

I am also not settling for less than full humanity.

[BenL]

Whoa! What Pablo suggested is the actuality in most of Western Europe ... except for the word "marriage." In most of those countries, a couple gets legally married at the city or town hall or registry office. They then proceed to have a religious ceremony if they wish. If they don't have a church service, they're still just as married in the eyes of the law.

Of course, what's in play here is the word "marriage." And, yes, it carries with it societal recognition of a relationship, hopefully a loving one. And, yes, many hetero couples and religious institutions are hung up on letting queer couples into the marriage club.

I am fortunate to have legal marriage here in Massachusetts. When people ask me if I plan to relocate to warmer climes in retirement, I tell them in no uncertain terms that it won't be until same-sex marriage is fully recognized in those semi-tropical paradises. So, even if civil unions or domestic partnerships carried all the rights of marriage, I think I'd still hold out for marriage. Sorry, Pabs, but your concept is good, but people want equality ... not just legal equality, but social equality too.

[Daniel]

Originally Posted by BenL

Whoa! What Pablo suggested is the actuality in most of Western Europe ... except for the word "marriage." In most of those countries, a couple gets legally married at the city or town hall or registry office. They then proceed to have a religious ceremony if they wish. If they don't have a church service, they're still just as married in the eyes of the law.

Of course, what's in play here is the word "marriage."

And I really wish we were more like them. As it is, you talk to just about any European and find out that they speak fluent English and another language or two. They are educated. Are we? Not quite like they are. However, they do have an advantage: the country next door is a stone's throw away. They have to be bilingual to do business. It's part of the deal. Us? We're so big a country we think we can do without the rest of the world. And how stupid is that?

The powerful United States of America? More like the United States of Ignorance. I'm not hung up on the word marriage as much as I am fighting for the full recognition of rights in the set-up as it is. And when gay couples have to sue in court to get what the law says they already have (in NJ for instance), then something is really really wrong.

This boy is not going to go around begging for people to recognize his civil union.

Lastly: Europe doesn't go to church. By and large, their houses of worshop are tourist destinations. We, as a country, have a much larger attendance record. Faith is very much a part of our lives. And I don't see that changing.

Here's the good thing as I see it: working for full marriage rights is all about people in the pews realizing that God loves gay people. That gay people are not monsters and are indeed blessed as much as anyone else is blessed.

Either we are all children of God or we are not! In this, our country, where we have the right to have faith (and not have faith), we are demanding nothing less than the right to be married just like any idiot who gets drunk in Vegas and falls into a chapel. Why should his union be 'blessed' with full marriage rights, and the long-suffering gay couple not?

It's not about the morality of the person getting married. It's about us all being the same in the eyes of God AND the law.

That's our system. Ain't it grand?

PS- Plablo, I apologize for the caps. They are like yelling. And your post really got me going. Pax.