Recipe to condemn with impunity: Using Corinthians to define homosexuality as a sin

[Daniel]

Originally Posted by zimnah

The specific verse dealing with " man lying with man as if he were a woman" in Hebrew is MUCH differnt. It is better translated as " man who lies with man in his wife's bed." And that's a loose translation. The verses in Leviticus are all geared toward ensuring the propogation of the human race: don't waste the seed, gentlemen. But regulation regarding love is not mentioned, nor regulated. The main issue in this particular verse is deception of a married man and the lies he will tell as a result of his infidelity.

You are so welcome here zimnah!

Your words are illuminating regarding the infidelity of married- that is- men who have sex with men and are married to women. An article in the NYTTimes last week addressed the matter- excerpted in part below:

Originally Posted by NYTimes

When the Beard Is Too Painful to Remove

By JANE GROSS (NYT)
Published: August 3, 2006

THEY spend decades denying their sexual confusion to themselves and others. They generally limit their encounters with men to anonymous one-night stands and tell all manner of lies if their wives suspect.
They consider themselves to be devoted husbands, conscientious fathers and suburban homeowners, and what typically brings them to the point of crisis in their 40's, 50's and even 60's is their first emotional connection with another man.


For gay men in heterosexual marriages, even after the status quo becomes unbearable, the pull of domestic life remains powerful. Many are desperate to preserve their marriages -- to continue reaping the emotional and financial support of wives, and domestic pleasures like tucking children in at night.

The demand for support groups for gay, married men, as well as traffic in Internet chat rooms, shows that so-called ''Brokeback'' marriages have hardly disappeared, as many experts assumed they would, even in an age when gay couples, in certain parts of the country, live openly and raise children just like any family.

Leaving a marriage and setting up housekeeping with a gay partner is not what most married gay men have in mind when they join a support group, according to Stephen McFadden, a clinical social worker, who runs such groups in Manhattan. Instead, Mr. McFadden and others in the field say, their clients generally start out committed to the opposite goal.

Even after a pained awakening or acknowledgment of their sexual orientation, these men want to save their marriages, Mr. McFadden and others say, either by lying, promising their wives they will not have sex with men or persuading them to accept their double lives.

Yet, such arrangements succeed for only ''a small percentage'' of couples, Mr. McFadden and other therapists said, but the stubborn attempt often makes these men unwelcome or uncomfortable in support groups for gay fathers, which are easy to find but largely the province of men who are long divorced.

A subqequent letter to the editor addressed the matter as far the female partner is concerned.

Originally Posted by NYtimes

August 10, 2006
Married Gay Men

To the Editor:

You describe vividly and accurately the pain of married gay men as they try to deal with the conflict of loving their wives and wanting to satisfy their same-sex attractions in “When the Beard Is Too Painful to Remove” (Thursday Styles, Aug. 3). I have heard many similar stories as I studied spouses in such mixed-orientation marriages over the last 20 years.

To grasp the whole picture, however, the gay husbands’ struggle needs to be matched by the later turmoil of their wives as they sense that something is not right in their marriages, discover that they have been deceived, and in most cases, find themselves in a divorce situation.

From the straight spouse’s perspective, the article is a powerful argument for allowing gay men who want lifelong partners to seek a marital union with other gay men, rather than struggle to fit the mold of a heterosexual marriage in which everyone involved gets hurt.

Codifying marriage as legal only if it is between a man and a woman, as has been proposed or passed in constitutional amendments across the country, will perpetuate these kinds of tragedies for gay husbands (and lesbian wives), straight spouses and their children.

Amity P. Buxton
Oakland, Calif., Aug. 3, 2006
The writer is the author of a book about the effect of gay, lesbian and bisexual spouses’ disclosure on their straight partners and children.

I believe you hit the nail on the head: it's about deception. And having the right to marry would go a long way in taking the need for deception away.

Whether this line of argument can be 'heard' or 'pierce the armour' as Liberal has so aply put it, is, of course, an entirely different matter. But with those who have ears to hear, the message rings loud and clear. It's not only closeted gay men that have problems with deception, but also those who want to see things as they are not- like those of the brick wall type.

[NathanATX]

Originally Posted by zimnah

I did not have a clear idea before now of what a dilemna it must be to be gay and Christian. I am VERY familiar with the verses in the Pentateuch that most ministers base there arguments on, and I know intimately the Hebrew involved (I was a cantor by trade before my usband and I decided to leave the pulpit). The specific verse dealing with " man lying with man as if he were a woman" in Hebrew is MUCH differnt. It is better translated as " man who lies with man in his wife's bed." And that's a loose translation. The verses in Leviticus are all geared toward ensuring the propogation of the human race: don't waste the seed, gentlemen. But regulation regarding love is not mentioned, nor regulated. The main issue in this particular verse is deception of a married man and the lies he will tell as a result of his infidelity. The entire message of the Torah (Pentateuch) is to be true to yourself and to G-d, and to regulate your seed to appropriate persons. Judaism today suggests that responsibility to "Tikkun Olam" (Care fo the World) suggests that we only seek to replace ourselves in propogation, so as not to over-populate the world. I happen to agree with that concept, however it may be accomplished.

For those who may not know, Jews are not permitted to put G-d's name into print. To avoid that, we avoid even putting His title of "G-d" completely into print...that is why I always have a Gee-dash--Dee instead of the normal designation.
Peace!!

What a great post! Welcome to our little family!

[tdogg]

Zim, I'm so glad you're here! Just one post, and I have new insight (and tools for some of my struggles - not myself, with a few family members). What great information - keep it comin'!

Those who are doing God's work on the CARM and other not-so-nice forums - the others are right, the work isn't for those who are stuck in cement on their own narrow views. It's for the lurkers, the seekers, the researchers, the people who aren't ready to engage in the dialogue but for those who are looking for answers to their own issues, their own faith, their own sexuality. Those are the people who need the work to continue. While I don't feel particularly called to engage, although if I ever visited those sites most likely would feel called, to those of you who do (Emproph, Dash, Awe, Keltic, and anyone else I might have missed), a HUGE thanks and my appreciation, prayers and love. You are doing such a great service for humanity and the Lord. Strive on!

[BruceChris]

I do not spend that much time reading the bible, as I do reading books by biblical scholars. People who have spent many years studying Greek, Hebrew, Aramaic, and other languages that the books of the bible were written in, to gain their best understanding of how these languages were used, at the time that the books were written. These scholars frely admit that they don't know exactly what any given verse means, or that they may have many translations of what the verse means. I read a lot of Spong, and maybe all I have really gained is a better understanding of what it is that we don't know. And I freely admit that I am an amateur.

Zim, I welcome anything that you have to offer us. I seriously doubt that you are going to offer us absolute truth any time soon. I believe you are only offering us your understandings of what you have learned.

By the way, it is not against MY religion to use God's name, as long as I do so respectfully. If you have a concern with that, please tell me.

Peace, Love, and more of your postings, BruceChris