Parsing out a stance on Israel? Maybe this will help...

[Giancarlo]

Originally Posted by revtj

...but I can't help noting that your (and millions of other Americans) giving up on the issue allows current policy to move dumbly forward, which is precisely what my last paragraph complained about...please don't give up on the issue!

I love my country enough to give a scathing review of bad foreign or domestic policy. I especially love the fact that, although serious efforts are now attempting to take it away, I am still currently free to publicly criticize my nation and my government because that is precisely what makes democracy preferable to other forms of government.

Give up on the issue? Excuse me? I am going for my Masters in Political Science with a strong leaning towards international relations. I am not giving up on the issue, in fact I might work with it. It might be my career. I just get tired hearing about the same old rhetoric from both sides. Maybe we should moderate our views a bit? I get attacked for being a moderate because I don't entirely disagree with current policy.

Don't tell me what to do.

For one don't try to speak for me. I get a little edgy when people do that, and very defensive. Secondly, I'm not an American. I may live in Los Angeles, but I was not born in this country. Thirdly, I do not think you have any evidence to justify your statements. You made several accusations: That the US was behind the assassination of Former Prime Minister Rafic Hariri. That's false because the Syrians were. The US was behind the heart attack of Ariel Sharon. That's false because why would they be? Sharon was the biggest ally in the region.

http://www.rhariri.com - That's a website set up mostly promoting Hariri's policies.

There are some gaping holes in the foreign policy of this country, but to make accusations that serious... well, is almost insulting to anyone who lives in this country. Especially when you do it without evidence. But you know what disturbs me the most is the fact that no one I see, on either the left or right, are capable of coming up with their alternative plan.

Instead of criticizing so much, why not come up with some alternatives?

By the way, I never attacked your freedom of speech and I never said you couldn't speak out. Feel free to.

[zimnah]

Gee, I'm almost afraid to post on this subject, but I don't think I can remain silent.
As I've posted previously, I am a Jew. Not a Messianic Jew, but a Jew. I'm also a cantor trained in the Conservative Movement. I'm also ex-Army. From a military standpoint, there was no other response available to Israel when Hezbollah invaded and kidnapped the two Israelis. It's not the kidnapping, folks. It's the fact that they crossed the border, they INVADED Israel, that prompted the heavy artillary.
As a clergyperson, I have to say that I agree with something I heard on CNN a couple of weeks ago: military action will not solve anything in this conflict. It will only serve to inflame passions more. And as an American, blessedly removed from the violence, I can view the results of the bombings from both sides from the comfort of my livingroom and feel free to comment on what one side or the other should or should not do. Wow, what a luxury.
Here is what I pray is a reality check: even post 9/11, we Americans don't have a clue as to what it is like to live in a country divided right down the middle by a bunch of people claiming to have an equal right to a G-d given land. There's the Israeli side. As for the Palestinian side, their neighborhoods are called refugee camps for a reason: they came into the country after it was awarded to the Jews in '48 to protect Arab interests. The general fear then was that Jewish settlers would outnumber the natives and force them out, so Arab countries in the region began pouring in immigrants of their own. The truth of the matter is that there are precious few Palestinians who hold only one passport: most hold another passport from Syria, Jordan, etc. I will admit to feeling a bit frustrated with the media for referring to well-established concrete apartment buildings as "refugee camps," thus equating them to the sea of tents seen in Rwanda, for example.
Giancarlo, you have it right that we should not indulge in the rhetoric unless we have suggestions for a solution. I have one: we here who have the freedom of rhetoric should take ourselves to the nearest mosque and attend a few services and get to know a few Muslims. Learn a little about Mohammed's (peace be unto him) teachings. Then, we should go to the nearest synagogue, and get to know a few Jews, see what the Sabbath is like for Jews, hear the Torah in Hebrew. Then we should go to a church and get to know a few Christians, hear what Christians have to say about Jesus. The final step? Have a party at your house, invite all your new friends, and introduce them to one another. Encourage cultural exchange. As the old saying goes, if we are not a part of the solution, then we remain part of the problem...and our biggest problem now is ignorance of the cultures we judge. We made that mistake in Westward Expansion here in the US, WW I, WW II, Korea, Vietnam, Bosnia, Somalia...and I've missed a few. G-d forgive us, we sent peanut butter to Iraqis, who've never seen such a thing! (That STILL irks me to no end!) Its not enough that we know history. Our world is so small and interdependent that we have to know each other.
Well, that was a bit more vague than I would have liked, but I hope it was at least English.
Shalom, haverim.

[revtj]

Zimnah, your ideas are fantastic. I do wonder, however, whether we as a nation and as a planet are in any way moving toward this type of listening and learning. But it would do the whole world a lot of good!

Giancarlo, you certainly lack diplomacy skills so I'm praying an important part of your training will be self-reflection on the overbearing defensiveness that will keep you from being heard. I know that recently news media like Fox and others have made it appear that screaming at each other is somehow a healthy listening & learning process, but it is not. It is polarizing and ultimately violent.

Dialoguing with people you disagree with is a foundational principle of Soulforce. I have made it clear in all my posts that I don't know the answer to the region's woes, and I am very unhappy with the popular solutions, all of which involve war. But I feel you read some kind of personal attack into my words. That's the downside of email, but, I assure you, there was no attack on you, there was an attempt to speak truth to the power of the current administration in Washington which is hellbent on military solutions to MidEast squabbles.

You ask for evidence. Of what? Torture? War-profiteering? There is so much evidence for these 2 alone it would require a 2 volume set. If you're unaware of that evidence start with the torture prisons named in previous posts (including Uzbekistan, and other outsourcing by the CIA), then research Halliburton. That should highlight my evidence for you.

As for the strange deaths of the area leaders, all I said was I think it is strange. No, I cannot trust that Arafat wasn't poisoned, nor that America had something to gain by the assassination of Hariri, nor do I trust that some zionists weren't hugely relieved that Sharon had his heart attack when he did. I said it was strange, that's all. Likewise, I made it clear that I trust NONE of the governments represented. I do not think it is impossible that America is in bed with Syria, but that is about lack of trust for a corrupt adminstration, not something I can prove.

Can you engage my ideas which I, as an American, feel to be the truth in the context of the history of the USA as I have lived it and known it for 47 years? I already know my ideas are considered radical so a sniping rant is hardly going to change my mind. The odd thing to me is, 4-6 years ago my ideas were considered moderate. Live and learn!

[Giancarlo]

Originally Posted by revtj

Giancarlo, you certainly lack diplomacy skills so I'm praying an important part of your training will be self-reflection on the overbearing defensiveness that will keep you from being heard. I know that recently news media like Fox and others have made it appear that screaming at each other is somehow a healthy listening & learning process, but it is not. It is polarizing and ultimately violent.

That's incredibly rude, and incredibly overbearing on me as a person. I do not appreciate people making judgements calls based on one post. I may appear to be defensive, but to say I lack diplomacy skills is an insult to me as a person. I'm far more diplomatic then you are, and I was trying to engage in a conversation. You however resorted to making judgement calls on me as a person. It is that attitude which leads to international stand-offs and disputes. Not only that what you just said is utterly unacceptable in any realm of debate. Ad hominems are totally INAPPROPRIATE!

I don't watch Fox News, CNN or the like. I prefer to get my news from elsewhere.

Dialoguing with people you disagree with is a foundational principle of Soulforce. I have made it clear in all my posts that I don't know the answer to the region's woes, and I am very unhappy with the popular solutions, all of which involve war. But I feel you read some kind of personal attack into my words. That's the downside of email, but, I assure you, there was no attack on you, there was an attempt to speak truth to the power of the current administration in Washington which is hellbent on military solutions to MidEast squabbles.

I have made it incredibly clear of what I believe in and that I typically side with the Israelis on issues. I'm unhappy with the present state of policy making. I also am dissatisfied with the opposition's inability to come up with a coherent plan. I have not seen a plan or an alternative from those who oppose Bush, and I have not seen a viable plan from Bush himself. I did back the Iraq war, and I did back Israel in this recent crisis... however, I would like to see a much clearer strategy. I did not read any personal attack, I just felt a bit intruded on.

You ask for evidence. Of what? Torture? War-profiteering? There is so much evidence for these 2 alone it would require a 2 volume set. If you're unaware of that evidence start with the torture prisons named in previous posts (including Uzbekistan, and other outsourcing by the CIA), then research Halliburton. That should highlight my evidence for you.

I didn't say there wasn't any evidence. I think there is plenty, Haditha is another place of interest. But these abuses are being prosecuted by military authorities. By the way, I have nothing against Halliburton and my father used to work for them. They are a respectable company.

As for the strange deaths of the area leaders, all I said was I think it is strange. No, I cannot trust that Arafat wasn't poisoned, nor that America had something to gain by the assassination of Hariri, nor do I trust that some zionists weren't hugely relieved that Sharon had his heart attack when he did. I said it was strange, that's all. Likewise, I made it clear that I trust NONE of the governments represented. I do not think it is impossible that America is in bed with Syria, but that is about lack of trust for a corrupt adminstration, not something I can prove.

I do not think Arafat was poisoned at all. And your accusation that America has something to gain by the assassination of Hariri is a false one. For one, Hariri was America's biggest ally after Faoud Siniora. Hariri was out of office when he was assassinated, and the concrete evidence points to the fact that he was killed by the Syrians. The Americans do not like the Syrians and have very little diplomatic ties with them. Sharon had a heart attack because of his bad diet. I would of hoped that Ehud Olmert would of continued his legacy, but it appears that might be on hold.

Additionally, it is an insult to this country to suggest that the US is in bed with Syria. RIDICULOUS, false and utterly slanderous. I do not like Bush one bit, and do not trust him... but I do not make utterly contrived statements like that one. If anything, the US is heavily funding inititatives done by anti-Syrian sources within Syria, and in Lebanon.

Can you engage my ideas which I, as an American, feel to be the truth in the context of the history of the USA as I have lived it and known it for 47 years? I already know my ideas are considered radical so a sniping rant is hardly going to change my mind. The odd thing to me is, 4-6 years ago my ideas were considered moderate. Live and learn!

I may be only 21, and I may not have lived through some things that have happened in this world, but I feel I do have an adequate grasp of the situation.

I'm a moderate, and I can find a compromise on a situation. I also am a realist. I know that peace... well peace is impossible in this world. Live and learn huh? So you're calling me ignorant? I think if you live and learn, being a moderate will be the likely option.

[revtj]

For one don't try to speak for me. I get a little edgy when people do that, and very defensive.

Giancarlo, these were your words and I agreed with them. I have not called you ignorant nor attacked you personally but that is how you are receiving everything I post.

I am bowing out of this thread and I suggest you study the Soulforce principles longer before engaging dialogue on this site. Please don't take that as an insult, it's meant to be an opportunity for you!

[Giancarlo]

Originally Posted by revtj

Giancarlo, these were your words and I agreed with them. I have not called you ignorant nor attacked you personally but that is how you are receiving everything I post.

I am bowing out of this thread and I suggest you study the Soulforce principles longer before engaging dialogue on this site. Please don't take that as an insult, it's meant to be an opportunity for you!

I said that out of notice. I was not being insulting. There is a difference between being defensive and insulting. When being defensive I may defend my views more vehemently.

Study soulforce principles? I think I am very well in principle and am not insulting anyone. I afterall wasn't the one who employed ad hominem attacks. I think I will withdraw from this website.

[hankzzz]

I'm sure they will argue like heck over the lands, but the only way Israel can continue to exist is to be recognized by more of it's neighbors.

As those are American tanks, planes and bombs being used in Israel's military actions, we have an obligation to hold them to account if their (defensive) operations are too heavy handed. So far, the U.S. has given only unconditional support for anything Israel does.

To me, people are all equally precious and have a right to live in peace.