How to respond to fundamentalists...

[NathanATX]

I'm posting this message thread to share how I respond to fundamentalists who use their faith in God as a reason to attack gay people...

This is a post from woman on a "support straight marriage" message board on another site. The names have been changed to protect the "innoncent."

******************
Bob Wrote:
larry- equal rights has nothing to do with liberalism. i'm conservative and i realize that denying equal rights is unjust, unfair an unamerican.

"most people, again...even in Canada...have a clear understanding of the difference between right and wrong."

its amazing how someone so full of hatred, misinformation and ignorance can make concrete statements about right and wrong and even claim to be teaching others such information. you can say "i dont hate" as much as you want but your words say otherwise. just another hypocritical contradiction.

"Take note: PEOPLE ARE TIRED OF THIS GARBAGE!!"

interesting that you think standing up against injustice and fighting for equal rights is garbage...but i have faith deep down that good will eventually triumph over evil so your own personal belief system really doesnt matter too much. mind if i call you hitler from now on?

Suzie wrote:

Rights are not being denied to anybody. I still don't understand how same-sex marriage supporters can say they are being denied equal rights. All U.S. citizens have the right to marry. And by the way, marriage is an individual right, not a group right. As individuals, we all have the right to marry. I have a right to marry and so does everyone in this group, under the very same criteria.

If homosexuals are saying they are being denied equal rights to marry & if that were a fact, then people under the age of 18 could say, "hey, wait a minute..I should be able to marry too. I am being denied my 'right' to marry, only because I am not 18 yet. That's not fair!" This is the same type of principle.

I think certain people in this group are misconstruing what having equal rights really means. Equal rights does not mean having the right to do whatever someone chooses to do. Same-sex marriage is not an issue of rights, this is an issue of trying to change the DEFINITION of marriage to suit homosexuals. Marriage is what it is. Marriage is the union of one man and one woman. That's how it's been since the beginning of time. This is engrained in nature. This is the fabric of a civilization.

Just like Larry pointed out, there have been civilizations where homosexuals were able to form unions, however, those unions were never entirely the same as marriage. And why is that? Because marriage is solely the union of one man and one woman, by DEFINITION not by right. Now something like marriage could be created for homosexual unions, but that union would not ever be marriage because again marriage is between one man and one woman.

You're entitled to your opinion, Bob. Don't you think Larry is as well? You want to call him Hitler?? lol Have you ever studied anything about Hitler? I wouldn't even remotely compare Larry to Hitler. lol However, that does serve for a good laugh!


I responded:


Suzie, you're brighter than this.

Marriage, from a legal standpoint, is a contract between two people. It brings two individual entities together to become one. There are joint responsibilities and many, many joint priviledges to those who enter into this contract.

A contract can only be entered into by consenting adults. A minor isn't legally able to enter into contractual relationships.

If two adult men want to enter into a marriage contract, the only basis for disallowing this currently is the gender of the parties.

That is inequality, pure and simple.

The real basis of your arguement is simple-minded fear. Discrimination, injustice and inequality has kept many, many gay & lesbian people closeted for their entire lives. What if our society becomes more affirming, loving and justice oriented? Then anyone who identifies as gay or lesbian is simply going to come out and live a happy, normal life.

And since your view of God is that He would torture someone for eternity for living the way He made them, a gay or lesbian person loving their life and living out & proud, cause you to feel threatened for your very salvation if you knowingly "allow" these people to live unchallenged. And because you're such a "godly" person, you're not going to let that happen.

There is a saying that speaks to this, "People become like the God they worship."

You believe God would torture gay & lesbian people in hell, so you're going to torture them on earth.

I'm trying to figure out how that fits into what Jesus said were the two greatest commandments: "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind & strength. And love your neighbor as you love yourself."

[Jennifer5]

Great response Nathan! Maybe if enough people here it, over time someone will actually take it in.

[pnggrad79]

I would like to know how saying that homosexuals are NOT being denied civil rights by being denied the right to marry. That is kind of like saying, well you can't vote because you're black, but that is not a denial of civil rights. OMG! And I would like to know who defined what marriage is? And why are straight people so threatened by gay people getting married. We simply want the freedom to live in this country, love our mates, and live our lives without getting a freaking act of Congress just to live together. Let me see, Suzie, if your rights to get married as a straight person were suddenly and maliciously stripped away from you-I wonder what you would do and say then! A woman in Florida just got married last month to a DOLPHIN!!!!! And there was a ceremony, the whole 9 yards! If she can marry a DOLPHIN, why can't gay people marry? Give me a large break!

[Legion]

The dolphin must have been straight.

[NonLemming]

Many good points in this thread. Thank you.

[Joe Brummer]

I noticed this women says that marriage is an individual right not a group right.


I would like to see her get married as an indivdual.


Marriage is a right of couples. Some couples can do it, and some cannot. There is where the inequality lies.

[NathanATX]

On Saturday, I had the dis-pleasure of catching a local pastor's talk show. The topic of the day was "The Hollywood Agenda." And apparently, their agenda is the same as the "gay agenda."

He had a "cute" little skit where these writers were auditioning their scripts to a producer. And every "script" had some inflammatory, derogatory gay theme.

It totally pissed me off. The following is an email conversation that is currently going on.

I want to STRONGLY encourage people to react & respond to things like this that are happening in your local communities.

****************
"Sam", (name changed)
I just saw a segment on your "hollywood agenda" show that portrayed writers auditioning their scripts to a producer.

I think you defame the name and the message of Christ when you defame people God has created. It's abusive and arrogant.

I am personally insulted by your attack on gay people, but more than that, I am offended by your depiction of God and Christianity.

You do not resememble Christ, Sam. You resemble the religious hypocrites that Jesus DID speak out against in Matthew 23:

13"I've had it with you! You're hopeless, you religion scholars, you Pharisees! Frauds! Your lives are roadblocks to God's kingdom. You refuse to enter, and won't let anyone else in either.
15"You're hopeless, you religion scholars and Pharisees! Frauds! You go halfway around the world to make a convert, but once you get him you make him into a replica of yourselves, double-damned.
6"You're hopeless! What arrogant stupidity! You say, "If someone makes a promise with his fingers crossed, that's nothing; but if he swears with his hand on the Bible, that's serious.' 17What ignorance! Does the leather on the Bible carry more weight than the skin on your hands? 18And what about this piece of trivia: "If you shake hands on a promise, that's nothing; but if you raise your hand that God is your witness, that's serious'? 19What ridiculous hairsplitting! What difference does it make whether you shake hands or raise hands? 20-22A promise is a promise. What difference does it make if you make your promise inside or outside a house of worship? A promise is a promise. God is present, watching and holding you to account regardless.
23"You're hopeless, you religion scholars and Pharisees! Frauds! You keep meticulous account books, tithing on every nickel and dime you get, but on the meat of God's Law, things like fairness and compassion and commitment--the absolute basics!-you carelessly take it or leave it. Careful bookkeeping is commendable, but the basics are required. 24Do you have any idea how silly you look, writing a life story that's wrong from start to finish, nitpicking over commas and semicolons?
25"You're hopeless, you religion scholars and Pharisees! Frauds! You burnish the surface of your cups and bowls so they sparkle in the sun, while the insides are maggoty with your greed and gluttony. 26Stupid Pharisee! Scour the insides, and then the gleaming surface will mean something.
27"You're hopeless, you religion scholars and Pharisees! Frauds! You're like manicured grave plots, grass clipped and the flowers bright, but six feet down it's all rotting bones and worm-eaten flesh. 28People look at you and think you're saints, but beneath the skin you're total frauds.
29"You're hopeless, you religion scholars and Pharisees! Frauds! You build granite tombs for your prophets and marble monuments for your saints. 30And you say that if you had lived in the days of your ancestors, no blood would have been on your hands. 31You protest too much! You're cut from the same cloth as those murderers, 32and daily add to the death count.

You should be ashamed of your arrogant and ungodly portayal of what it means to be a Christian.

Nathan

**********************
His wife's response:
Nate

It would appear that you have defamed Jeremy and so fail to meet your own interpretations of Jesus' teaching.

Shame on you.

However - if you stop and re-read the very verses you quoted, then you would see that Jesus is okay with calling out those who are in the wrong.

And since the Bible makes it abundantly clear that homosexuality is wrong, then you are truly at odds with the Bible and not Jeremy.

Please spend some time reading Romans chapter 1.

******************************

My reply:

Susan & Sam,

First, I want to acknowledge I wrote a reactionary/upset email. I don't always speak with compassion, and that is an area I'm committed to growing in. Please accept my apologies for writing from a place of anger.

I also want to acknowledge that your show did make me angry, especially the writers/producer segment. You weren't just teaching or arguing your opposition to homosexuality, you were intentionally debasing gay people, using them as the butt of your jokes, and clearly intending to be offensive. That behavior did not reflect the heart of Christ.

Speaking to someone's lack of integrity is not defaming them. Saying you are committed to be like Christ while denigrating children of God is defaming Christ. You become the source of a warped, judgemental view of what it means to be a Christian.

If the world was to only know you were a Christian by your love for others, how would you be known in this situation?

I think the church needs to be concerned with the things that Jesus was concerned about, that we need to have the religion of Jesus, instead of the religion about Jesus.

And the Bible is not "abundantly clear that homosexuality is wrong." Just like the ancient views of menstruation and eating pork, ancient writers had ideas about sexuality that we know today to be false and misinformed.

Jesus never spoke out once against homosexuality. He did, however, speak out against religious leaders using their influence to deride and manipulate the children of God. He did speak out against adultery. He did speak out against the way the poor, the sick and the lonely were treated.

What are you going to speak out against? Are you going to perpetuate the myths & prejudices of fearful uninformed people? Or are you going to speak to the truth that God's love is the same for you as it is for me. That our sameness overpowers any differences we may have. That our goodness and perfection is the result of being created by a holy & loving God, not a result of our selfish, self-centered works.

Nathan

[Zerbie]

I don't believe you could have done any better than you did. Your note to them is so heartfelt and authentic, if they do not take your words to heart, then it is not their time to do so. Thank you for addressing this issue. You have pierced to the center of what is going on with them and their show. Excellent!

Reading that exchange brings me back to what has always dismayed me most about the religion VERSUS homosexuality "debate." As a small child my parents raised me outside the church so that I could grow up to chose a faith, rather than be indoctrinated. How seriously I took that, as a little tiny thing! I remember being 6 or 7 and hearing "religious leaders" say horrid things about gay people and shaking my head. How clear it is, what is going on. Not being well-educated in the Bible, this was the first time I read those words of Jesus you included above, and I am beyond impressed with what perfect clarity of vision He had, and how easily ignored His teachings were and still are.

Thanks Nathan.

[Jamie McDaniel]

Originally Posted by NathanATX

I think the church needs to be concerned with the things that Jesus was concerned about, that we need to have the religion of Jesus, instead of the religion about Jesus.

Most excellent!

[NathanATX]

My Pastor, Rev. Ken Martin of MCC Austin said that in a sermon. He is an AMAZING teacher.

If you're ever in Austin, TX, come visit! www.mccaustin.com

[NathanATX]

That pastor just emailed me back. I'm swamped this week, so if anyone want's to help me creat a response, I'd appreciate it!
Nathan
****************

Nathan - here is my response...

First, I want to acknowledge I wrote a reactionary/upset email. I don't always speak with compassion, and that is an area I'm committed to growing in. Please accept my apologies for writing from a place of anger.

Thanks for your apology - it is accepted.

Please understand that our attempt to bring levity to a topic is not intended to anger people.

I also want to acknowledge that your show did make me angry, especially the writers/producer segment. You weren't just teaching or arguing your opposition to homosexuality, you were intentionally debasing gay people, using them as the butt of your jokes, and clearly intending to be offensive. That behavior did not reflect the heart of Christ.

If you care for my take on the video short, the butt of the joke was hollywood (and New York for that matter) whose agenda is to promote homosexuality. Their agenda is quite clear.


So, homosexuality itself was not fully in our scopes so much as was the producers and writers who are attempting to paint homosexuality as normal.

Speaking to someone's lack of integrity is not defaming them. Saying you are committed to be like Christ while denigrating children of God is defaming Christ. You become the source of a warped, judgemental view of what it means to be a Christian.

First of all - the Bible teaches that the Children of God are adopted by placing their faith in Jesus Christ.

Eph 1:5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,

I challenge you also to read Romans 8 to understand that only those who are in Jesus Christ are children of God.

Therefore, those that have not repented of their sins and turned to Jesus are not children of God.

1 John 2:23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also.

If the world was to only know you were a Christian by your love for others, how would you be known in this situation?

I think the church needs to be concerned with the things that Jesus was concerned about, that we need to have the religion of Jesus, instead of the religion about Jesus.

Jesus rejected the need for religion and pointed us to a relationship with the Father through the Son's bloodshed upon the cross.

During our show, we pointed people away from the hollywood agenda and towards Jesus Christ and this is how true love is demonstrated. Love is not the accepting of sinful behaviors, love is when you stand for truth even if it's not the popular or socially acceptable thing to do. Love, Jesus love, Agape love as shown to the lost world is to call them to repentance and point them to Jesus.

This is exactly what we did.

to quote Jesus, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." (Matt 4:17)

And the Bible is not "abundantly clear that homosexuality is wrong." Just like the ancient views of menstruation and eating pork, ancient writers had ideas about sexuality that we know today to be false and misinformed.

This statement is incorrect on several levels.

First of all - either the Bible is the word of God or it is not.

If it is God's word, then you must accept all that it says, and interpret it according to the hermeneutical rules

If it is not, then where do you get your information about Jesus? The Bible? Why use the Bible if it is full of errors?

So you need to either accept the Bible as God's word or reject it and question everything it says.

If you question it, then don't throw Jesus quotes at me, because I know your only picking and choosing what you like from the Bible which lacks intellectual integrity.

Secondly - the Jewish religious customs regarding the eating of pork and the uncleanliness of menstruation both had to do with ceremony, not science.

and Finally, the Bible is most certainly abundantly clear concerning the sin of homosexuality.

to scratch the surface, consider the following;

Romans 1:26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.

Paul here is describing men who burn in their lust for other men, or women with women as a vile passion, shameful and unnatural.

Furthermore,

Leviticus 18:22 You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination.

It doesn't get much clearer then that!

Consider the last chapter of the last book of the Bible.

Revelation 22:14 Blessed are those who *do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. 15 *But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.

The Greek word for sexually immoral is pornos and it refers to those who practice sexual acts that are unlawful. The law being the levitical law which as I already pointed out specifies the homosexual act as unlawful.

therefore, the Bible clearly teaches that those who commit homosexual acts and are unrepentant will not enter into the gates of heaven.

Therefore, the loving thing to do is warn them of the impending danger of their choices and actions. It would be unloving to let them continue to engage in sexual immorality and never warn them about their final destination.

Jesus never spoke out once against homosexuality. He did, however, speak out against religious leaders using their influence to deride and manipulate the children of God. He did speak out against adultery. He did speak out against the way the poor, the sick and the lonely were treated.

Again, you are misinformed. Jesus affirmed the levitical law and told people to either turn from their sins (including Leviticus 18:22) and turn to Him for salvation or they would die in their sins. (John 8:24)

What are you going to speak out against? Are you going to perpetuate the myths & prejudices of fearful uninformed people? Or are you going to speak to the truth that God's love is the same for you as it is for me. That our sameness overpowers any differences we may have. That our goodness and perfection is the result of being created by a holy & loving God, not a result of our selfish, self-centered works.

The truth is that unrepentant people, regardless of what sins they commit are bound for hell. And yes it is true that God so loves the world and each person equally which is why he sent Jesus to die for our sins. But we must turn away from sexual immorality of every sort and turn to him to be saved.

Jesus wants to save homosexuals but they must be informed according to God's word, not popular lies.

If you will acknowledge that God's word is right and your opinions are wrong, and turn to Jesus, you can be saved right now.

[Jamie McDaniel]

Well, Nathan, you certainly have a full-blown fundamentalist on the line. Only Christians (and probably fundamentalist Christians at that) are children of God??

So you need to either accept the Bible as God's word or reject it and question everything it says.

If you question it, then don't throw Jesus quotes at me, because I know you're only picking and choosing what you like from the Bible which lacks intellectual integrity.

Ridiculous. No Bible scholar or religious historian worth their salt would subscribe to such an approach to studying the books contained in the Bible. Inerrancy is truly a low view of holy scripture masquerading as some type of "high view of the Bible."

A false view of something can never be higher than the true view of that something.

For example, Nathan, if I were to say you are a god, that might sound like a compliment. Some would even say I have a high view of you. But that would not be true. I would actually have a false view of you. And a false view can never be higher than the correct view.

In addition to being a low view of the Bible, inerrancy rhetoric is also a danger to Christianity. God gave us minds in which to reason with, and imposing this "you must believe the Bible is the inerrant word of God" dogma offends the intellect God gave us and thus repels most thinking people.

Secondly - the Jewish religious customs regarding the eating of pork and the uncleanliness of menstruation both had to do with ceremony, not science.

This excuse as to why fundamentalists can ignore certain parts of Leviticus while enforcing others does not stand up under scrutiny. They need to use another filter instead. That being love. There are plenty of things found in the first testament (old testament) that I agree are wrong, but it is because such actions show malice towards another person rather than love. Similiarly there are things that are either supported or condoned in the Bible that people today rightly understand as being wrong. For example, slavery is morally wrong. Limiting women in ministry is morally wrong. Preventing interracial marriages is morally wrong.

[Zerbie]

My take? There is no open door there for you to dialogue with this "pastor." Anyone who sees division as sharply as he sees it, cannot dialogue on the subject.

If he does not see you and me as children of God, then he is incapable of seeing the very soul of love when it stands before his eyes. I would never believe a pastor who tried to teach that most people in the world are NOT children of God. And I would shudder to think what he imagines us all to be, instead. Anyone who divides human souls into 'God's children because they believe a specific set of rules that I believe', and Not God's children (because they do not so believe) is incapable of knowing God. It's a social club - my team versus all the other teams. Has nothing to do with spirituality. He has a very long road to travel ahead.

I do not think anyone is able to persuade someone like this. There is a reason we use the expression "a closed mind." This one is hermetically sealed.

[Joe Brummer]

Originally Posted by Zerbie

My take? There is no open door there for you to dialogue with this "pastor." Anyone who sees division as sharply as he sees it, cannot dialogue on the subject.

If he does not see you and me as children of God, then he is incapable of seeing the very soul of love when it stands before his eyes. I would never believe a pastor who tried to teach that most people in the world are NOT children of God. And I would shudder to think what he imagines us all to be, instead. Anyone who divides human souls into 'God's children because they believe a specific set of rules that I believe', and Not God's children (because they do not so believe) is incapable of knowing God. It's a social club - my team versus all the other teams. Has nothing to do with spirituality. He has a very long road to travel ahead.

I do not think anyone is able to persuade someone like this. There is a reason we use the expression "a closed mind." This one is hermetically sealed.

Ask this pastor out to lunch. Take him out to talk. Bring with you a copt of Stranger at the gate. Closed minds are open through compassion. Tell this pastor you don't have to agree, you just have to understand each other and the results of each others actions. It is all about understanding.

No point in debating the bible, but there is a point is learning about each other and understanding each other. Only then will this pastor know how his message hurts people. I bet, he doesn't know, but you could bring him that truth in love. I am sure he is a great person too! But needs understanding. I also bet he could show you things about the bible you would love. I bet you can show him things he would love. Never know until you try. Invite the man to lunch! You have nothing to lose, and much to gain. The worst is, he won't come or he won't listen, but I doubt that. Give it a shot, and do it with love.

[Zerbie]

That's a wonderful idea Joe, I love it!

Nathan, if you could actually get away from this picking at details kind of argument you've got going on with him, and on to more tangential subjects, you could find some common ground, and connect as people. Better done in a social setting like lunch out, than via correspondence. Once that human connection happens, things can only get better.

(Don't laugh at me, ya'll, but I actually spent a minute or two the other day wondering what would happen if S & I Bennett ever sat down to dinner with me and hubby. I'm betting the 4 of us wouldn't get into the same room, but it's kinda weird to ponder what might happen if we DID. But it won't - we have NO plans of asking them out to dinner!!!)

Confused Joe ,why you quoted my post in yours?

(edited because it wasn't clear when I was talking to Joe and when to Nathan. (-

[Joe Brummer]

sorry Zerbie,
No reason at all. Just clicked a button and that is what happen. Balme the cold meds!

[pnggrad79]

Nate,
This pastor is so blinded he crashes into his own walls. I was amazed by his definition of love-what was it?-standing for truth and repenting of your sins? Maybe I misunderstood. I never once read that definition in the Bible. True love was shown by Christ when he died for us. Paul provided a definition for love in I Corinthians 13. Nowhere do I ever remember love being described as pounding people over the head with someone else's truth. If some biblical scholar can show me, I would be glad to read it. This pastor is a whitewashed pharisee and he is just as blinded as Jesus said those other ones were 2000 years ago. Of all the verses in the Bible only 6 talk about (questionably) homosexuality. To me the Bible wasn't very loud about it. Jesus wasn't loud about it. To me, the Bible was loud about God's abounding love and mercy and grace, so the Pharisees of today can hairsplit all they want, I am going to be loud about the things God is loud about, and if it wasn't a big deal to him, why should it be to me? Get a life pastor.

[Legion]

This pastor brings up good issues though. Just because he makes himself unlikable does not mean that he is wrong.

[NathanATX]

Originally Posted by Legion

This pastor brings up good issues though. Just because he makes himself unlikable does not mean that he is wrong.

He's not wrong because he is unlikable. He's just wrong.

And not "wrong" in the sense of being an intrinsically wrong/evil person, he just has some misguided beliefs and understanding of the Bible.

[Legion]

What did he specifically say that was wrong?