This saddens me...

[kara speltz]

Originally Posted by tdogg

Jennifer, it's really amazing that you can hold the view you have at such a young age. Just a testament to your maturity level. By the way, how is the home work going???

This quote piqued my interest, so I just had to go check your profile Jennifer and I was totally blown away. You are the same age as my grand daughter who is very, very bright, but clearly does not have the comprehension you have. You are obviously a very old soul in a very young body. I honor you for your amazing wisdom. kara

[Jennifer5]

Originally Posted by Giancarlo

If we do not undermine them and stop them, they'll put their beliefs into government. That'll infringe on my civil rights. That I cannot allow.

....and that too can be an opinion, and I respect that you feel that way, but I can't say I'll agree.


Thank you Kara and Tdogg...

Tdogg... thanks for asking, the school work/home work is well not going very well actually, but I'll figure it out.

Kara... thanks but believe me I'm not nearly as mature as it sounds, if you don't remember at the cook-out that Friday in Colorado I was chasing my sister around with ice, before putting down her back... ...this stuff just works for me...

[Jennifer5]

Originally Posted by kara speltz

Oh, I never put it together that we'd met in Colorado - what fun. And never the less, I'm still impressed. And never forget that Jesus said, unless we be as little children.....

Completely understandable... a lot of people there, and thanks

[Giancarlo]

Originally Posted by kara speltz

you are confusing nonviolence with doing nothing. The most powerful force in the world is nonviolence. Gandhi and King both proved that. When we demonize someone else, we start the process of violence. When we help someone understand, we stop the fear and the violence.

I am? When did I say that? I am going to criticize because that is my right. I am not using violence. If I undermine someones beliefs I am not using violence. The world isn't black and white like that.

It is obvious the christian right in this country wants to transform this country into a theocracy.

[Huggins293]

Originally Posted by ladyinred

And even though they may not change their minds, there aren't the derogatory remarks that go on..or the arguments or accusations back and forth. I really defeated my purpose back then. Like I pointed out to one gentlemen because we talk about other things and issues as well. "Well I know you are a sincere Christian but I just don't see it that way." And while I may disagree with you about this, I'm not trying to insult or offend you, this is just something we don't see eye to eye on.

I have made the same mistakes as well. What changed me is that these heterosexists on these forums are no different than heterosexists I know and love in person. They are part of my family, they are my friends, they are my loyal co-workers. Why should I abuse my sense of fearlessness and allow my anger to degenerate opinions represenative of all the people I stated. It is hypocritial in a sense to use gentle arguments in public but use bolder arguments simply because I see no repercussion.

Our heterosexists brothers and sisters are extremely misguided and although some of their harsh attitudes are motivated out of love, they are unjustly imposing harm upon a group of people when it is not neccessary.

[Huggins293]

Originally Posted by Jennifer5

While I understand what everyone is saying about Focus on the Family, I have to ask that we take a time out and look at them....

While they cause a lot of hurt for the GLBT community, they are not all bad and they do a lot of good things. They help a lot of people and a lot of families, getting mad about what they say isn't going to fix anything, it's all about understanding and that has to go both ways if we want change. We can't be unreasonable, if we want them to listen, we have to listen to... Dr. Dobson is not a bad guy, but he is also clearly not fully educated on this topic and doesn't understand. So please I ask that we don't get mad and start saying bad things about Focus on the Family... it won't get us anywhere, and saying bad things about other people only makes us look bad.

I agree. Many of us love people who share his views. The cancer of heterosexism has such a stronghold on his mentality, that he can not see the harm he is inflicting.

[kara speltz]

Originally Posted by Huggins293

Our heterosexists brothers and sisters are extremely misguided and although some of their harsh attitudes are motivated out of love, they are unjustly imposing harm upon a group of people when it is not neccessary.

One of the most important lessons I've learned from Soulforce is that demonizing is the first step of violence. We've all been mistaken at times. I would even venture to guess that most of us have even held racist view points in the past, that we've had to deal with. I do believe that the vast majority of the human race act sincerely and simply need to hear in a loving way our understanding of the truth.

I was recently at a Catholic Worker gathering where a very sincere woman asked me, after I told her I was a gay rights activist, "Surely you don't condone the practice?" I replied that God blessed our love just as God blessed hers. Later I was able to share with her, that while I knew she didn't mean to be hurtful, it was very arrogant and came out a heterosexist privelege that assumed superiority. When I made a comparison to white skin privelege in her life, I could see she was visibly shaken. We continued this conversation throughout the conference. I believe she returned home with a different view. She thought she'd never met a gay person before, and as an out gay who committed my life to service, she had to confront all of her stereotypes.

Kara

[marutidas]

First I would like to say,
I am humbled to encounter such wisdom.
With closed palms, I bow to the divinity within you all.

Giancarlo, I am not a Christian either, if I were to call myself anything, I am a Hindu-Buddhist and I don't for the reason it leaves out so much about myself and I am seperating myself from others by doing that, but I still believe that Christianity has many lessons to offer. I go to a Catholic church, mainly because I like the priest and the people there, his sermines are very practicle, If Jesus was for anything it was helping the poor and the sick and most importantly, loving your fellow human being.

I know its not always to love or forgive those who hate you, but if you do not learn to forgive, your hatred of them will comsume you. I am not saying that you should not stand up for you believe, I am saying, at least forgive them for your sake.

While I am saddened by what many Conservitive Christians say about us, they are still first and foremost human beings. We are all human beings first, and our religion and identity is secondary.Maybe instead of drawing the line in the sand, it would be good to find some common ground.
My greatest weapon is not using harsh words, but simple truth

[Giancarlo]

Originally Posted by marutidas

Giancarlo, I am not a Christian either, if I were to call myself anything, I am a Hindu-Buddhist and I don't for the reason it leaves out so much about myself and I am seperating myself from others by doing that, but I still believe that Christianity has many lessons to offer. I go to a Catholic church, mainly because I like the priest and the people there, his sermines are very practicle, If Jesus was for anything it was helping the poor and the sick and most importantly, loving your fellow human being.

I'm not religious at all. I am considered atheist. I find lessons in life, not religion. I am separating myself from religion, not from people.

I know its not always to love or forgive those who hate you, but if you do not learn to forgive, your hatred of them will comsume you. I am not saying that you should not stand up for you believe, I am saying, at least forgive them for your sake.

I'm not going to forgive people who actively seek to diminish my civil rights. That's incredibly dangerous. Argentina did that with a general amnesty of military generals from the dirty war period. I don't think you can forgive those who commit crimes against democracy.

While I am saddened by what many Conservitive Christians say about us, they are still first and foremost human beings. We are all human beings first, and our religion and identity is secondary.Maybe instead of drawing the line in the sand, it would be good to find some common ground.
My greatest weapon is not using harsh words, but simple truth

I am not talking about putting them in jail or anything, or silencing them. But I'm talking about reducing their power in this country. They need to be stopped or else we can expect a religious fundamentalist state. If a fundamentalist state would occur, I would take up arms.

[kara speltz]

Originally Posted by Giancarlo

They need to be stopped or else we can expect a religious fundamentalist state. If a fundamentalist state would occur, I would take up arms.

Dear Giancarlo: The piece of this puzzle of nonviolence that it seems to me that you do not comprehend yet, is that violence really solves nothing, it only perpetuates the divisions. And the core truth of nonviolence is the need to change ourselves first. Gandhi said it very clearly, "we must become the change we seek." He required that his followers be believers, not in Hindu, but in the divine, I suspect because nonviolence, as I comprehend it, is not a human trait, but a divine trait. I am capable of loving those who hate me, not because of something I've done, but because I am open to the creative capacity of the divine spirit within me to love in the midst of suffering.

Kara

[Giancarlo]

Originally Posted by kara speltz

Dear Giancarlo: The piece of this puzzle of nonviolence that it seems to me that you do not comprehend yet, is that violence really solves nothing, it only perpetuates the divisions. And the core truth of nonviolence is the need to change ourselves first. Gandhi said it very clearly, "we must become the change we seek." He required that his followers be believers, not in Hindu, but in the divine, I suspect because nonviolence, as I comprehend it, is not a human trait, but a divine trait. I am capable of loving those who hate me, not because of something I've done, but because I am open to the creative capacity of the divine spirit within me to love in the midst of suffering.

Kara

This is misguided thinking. IF anything, India's independence from Britain was only attained by guerrilla warfare. Gandhi had very little to do with these rebel groups that put enormous amounts of strain on the British imperial army. It was mostly these rebel groups that attained independence. Another example of this is that the late dictator of Romania Nicholae Ceaucesu was pushed out by civil strife.

By the way, I believe non-violence is strictly a human trait, and I do believe it is important. However, when we are pushed into a corner by a violent state then there must be an armed insurrection. I would never concede to a religious state, nor would I ever compromise with one.

[kara speltz]

Originally Posted by Giancarlo

This is misguided thinking. IF anything, India's independence from Britain was only attained by guerrilla warfare. Gandhi had very little to do with these rebel groups that put enormous amounts of strain on the British imperial army. .

Fascinating, you've rewritten history now????? Yes in every nonviolent struggle there has always been those who resort to violence. I highly recommend you see a "A Force More Powerful." It's a two set video that shows the overall history of nonviolence. It is only when people finally come to understand that all governments rule with our consent, and refuse to consent any longer that true revolutions happen.

[Giancarlo]

Originally Posted by kara speltz

Fascinating, you've rewritten history now????? Yes in every nonviolent struggle there has always been those who resort to violence. I highly recommend you see a "A Force More Powerful." It's a two set video that shows the overall history of nonviolence. It is only when people finally come to understand that all governments rule with our concent, and refuse to consent any longer that true revolutions happen.

That's a grave accusation. You should not accuse people of history revisionism if you don't know what you're talking about. In India, there were powerful rebel movements against British colonial rule. Many oppressive governments have went down through violent means. Romania, the British colonial government in its colonies, the French colonial governments throughout Africa... or how about the Battle of Dien Bien Phu? Or if we go back to the 1940s, how about the war against the Axis Powers?

I didn't rewrite history. I only state the facts.

[marutidas]

This post I am coming to you not as a Hindu, but as a human being talking to another.
I know that every religion has some kind of conflict on its hands, none are without blame, I know that religious passions are the is most dangerous kind of passion.
But I will still say that there is good that comes from faith, most of the religios violence comes from people placeing to much impoertance on an institution, calling it infalable.
even if it is, we must never make the mistake that our understanding of it is. They do not build there own reliationship with their faith and many take everything at face value.
I am not trying to convert you, or to corerce you into anything you don't believe.
I am not saying that you should not stand up and voice you opinion.
All I want you to do is consider the following

But there are many kinds of violence including verbal. Many conservitive christians do use very negative things against us. But what would happen if we to start using the methods they use, we would no longer be non violent, violence extends to much more than just physical. Verbal abuse (propoganda) is the instigator of many physical and very tragic conflicts. I am not saying to forget any of the sufferings they may have put you or anyone you know through.
But forgiving someone is not just a religious thing. If you can you forgive your greatest enemy, you will be free from all of the suffering they could ever inflict on you. I know this sounds totally of the wall, but if you forgive them you will be free from hate, you find ease in helping others, if that is truely you goal, You would be able to put all you energy in to cutting at the root of the problem. I suggest you read Religion Gone Bad. It talks about all the major conservitives in the country and the dangers of fundamentalism. More importantly it talks of actual non violent means of helping fight fundamentalism. But you will not read one time were Mel White says he hates them.

I am sorry, but you will not find anyone on this site who will join you in demonizing anyone Conservitive, Religious or not. I hope that you can come back and post again. I have read many of you post, you have great ability at research, please use those skills to futher aid to GLBT people.
May you find peace in your heart,
---Marutidas

[Giancarlo]

I at no point advocated using violence against my opponents. I advocate criticizing them because that is my freedom. I advocate constructive criticism to reduce their power amongst the population. I advocate conveying a convincing message to the people.