What if Missionaries came in to your house to protest? Would you have them arrested?

[andrewlittle]

I stepped out of this discussion because of some good advice by keltic, and the realization that this was playing into a whole lot of underlying issues that function as triggers for me.

I'm not going to address the original topic, except to say that activism in an imperfect world is an imperfect approach - the very act of activism is aggressive, while seeking generally to alleviate aggression - it is frought with inherent tensions that raise emotional responses. It is the nature of the beast, I think. Nuff said about that.

What has become apparent is what happens when assumption meets assumption, when reaction meets reaction, when over-reaction meets over-reaction, and when profound pain meets profound pain. This thread is, in some ways, a microcosm of the world.

I'd love to say, "let's all get along", but that would insipid and trite and nice - and for that I would have to set some some example of acting nicely. Well, I've acted, reacted, over-reacted and pained someone else already. Getting along isn't what it's about.

We each come to this place bearing profound hurts - for many of us that's why we're here - for many, it just happens to be what we bring with us.

When hurts confront each other openly, I think there's reasonable evidence that the bearers can embrace each other in love and hope.

When hurt encounters hurt in the process of discussing emotional issues, those hurts can breed assumptions and reactions that are unwarranted and just add pain on top of pain on top ...

A great many things that have been said in this thread are TRUTHS - unassailable truths. They may, however, be truths that apply to our own circumstances and not directly related to others in the discussion. Privilege is undoubtedly one of those. We all operate from a position of privilege, one way or the other, but to assume someone operates from a specific kind of privileged position that we occupy, or as we see it, is not necessarily accurate.

The result can be pained/hurt people talking to each other out of their pain, as opposed to about their pain.

For what it is worth, I pray that we can step back a little, reassess our assumptions, re-evalute out reactions, and maybe embrace each other as hurt people with different experiences and concerns.

I, for one, am so very, very sorry for my part in inciting diatribe, in insulting Jacob with my assumptions, in playing the devil with the details. I can hear the pain that dwells in Kara, in Jacob, in others - and I know the pain that resides in my own soul - and I pray that we can see into those painful places in each other and recognize our own damage and damaging actions/assumptions for what they are.

What began as an argument about private space has ended being a dance of private pains, erupting and convulsing in ways that just lead to further pain. I don't have a solution - I just wanted to voice my apology for my part - and to pray for the invitation to embrace in each of our pains.

Now, back to the story ...

[Alecto]

I really wanted to stay out of this, but I thought I'd throw this out there:

I see on my campus once every couple months a military recruiter. He (I haven't seen females; doesn't mean they're not out there) represents to me a government that does not see me as an equal human being. He represents to me everything that I'm "up against" through no fault of my own. And he is fully within his legal, and arguably moral rights to be there. I think that, once your "home" (however we define that word) is big enough, you're going to have people in it who upset some. Morally speaking, the difference comes down to the level of "upset" (it's a lot worse if someone is being really loud and disruptive; worse again if they're committing acts of vandalism or violence) balanced with their reason for being there. Ending systems of oppression is noble. Ending the loss of life caused by said system of oppression, even moreso (and less ambiguously so).

I could build a case about how recruiting kids to an unjust war blah blah isn't noble, but that's not even my point. My point isn't about the recruiter, perse, but just that there are people willingly brought on campus at least on a weekly basis at my school (which was also on the smaller side, and was definitely my home) who definitely upset a significant portion of that campus. (Aside from GLBT people, we are a New York State public liberal arts campus; MOST people oppose this war, many oppose all war).

[tdogg]

Originally Posted by kara speltz

“If someone had told me at the beginning of the week that I would be deliberately making and spending time with LGBT people, I might have told them they were crazy and laughed it off. I admit that I never had any intention of attending any of the presentations or the panel discussion when you guys were here at Dordt. But because one teacher decided that my Sociology class should attend the presentation instead of holding class, my life has been changed, and in an amazing way! My mind and my heart were really truly opened. Never has something really stuck with me this hard or so clear. Everything I experienced in the past couple of days has been so amazing. I met some incredible people and I have come to cherish every second that I spent in their company. God works in mysterious ways. I felt God pulling at my heart and now I understand why….

“I want to encourage you in that no matter what happens, you have friends here at Dordt College that are praying for you the whole way on your journey. You are warriors on a new battlefield. You are a few against many. But your strength is with each other and with God and you will shake the foundations of this nation and the church down to its core. For with God on your side, who will be able to stand against you? Whether you reach an entire campus or just one person, you have made an impact and you have initiated change. And that is something that will stick for life like it will with me. These past two days and the friendships I’ve made will stay with me my entire life.

“What you are all doing is courageous and brave. You face opposition and adversity and yet you continue on. You are all amazing people. I wish you all safe travels and I will pray for your safety as you will probably face communities that were not as pleasant or “accepting” as what you experienced at Dordt. May God watch over you in everything you do and protect you with his loving hands. And may He work in the hearts of those who so strongly stand against you. I love you all and God Bless!”

To me, this is what the ER Riders action is all about - reaching one person is worth others feeling the intrusion. After all, it isn't as if the ER Riders are moving in, they are sticking around a day or two and then they are gone. This person was obviously moved, touched, blessed by the ER visit and his life will never be the same. Likely the Riders have touched others as well, and through those lives, even more will be blessed. For some it may be uncomfortable, there is no denying that. We are not guaranteed a life of comfort 100% of the time - however, our constitution supposedly is to guarantee our civil rights 100% of the time. Unfortunately that is not the case in the gay and lesbian world. I say gay and lesbian world because, although we are supposed to be one world and one nation, under God, it certainly often does not feel like it. There are those who work hard to put us in our own world which is sadly lacking some basic civil rights that others are given.

Andy, thanks for your post. It was very meaningful to me and I will be sure to re-read it now and then. Your words are obviously from your heart and they have touched mine.

Alecto, thanks for your point of view. I agree. My job site is not my home but as I'm there for hours upon hours a day often putting in much overtime and working at the office on my days off (as a manager, I put in a lot of OT hours I never get paid for) - it feels like home. My office is my personal space, containing some personal touches. My work is important to me and means something to me. Upon occasion we have committe meetings held at work where the public are invited in to voice their concerns, often complaints directed at the Department I work for and the people I work with. It's definitely uncomfortable and feels like an invasion to me personally; however, they are well within their right morally and in this case, legally. Then they leave and life goes on for me in the office. A minor pain in the grand scheme of life.

[kara speltz]

Thank you Tdogg for reposting that letter from the student. It's such a powerful witness. I was a bit disappointed that no one mentioned it, because every time I read it, it brings tears to my eyes. And you're absolutely right, this letter reflects everything that the Equality Ride is about. It truly makes me proud that these young people are taking such a courageous stand and that it's paying off. Today is the real difficult day for both busses. The West bus is at BYU, which has gotten even more repressive; and the East bus is Mississippi Christian. Images of the attacks on the Freedom busses, keep running through my mind, so please everyone, keep our Riders in your prayers . Kara

[jerespoon]

Originally Posted by JacoBison

No, OBU does not receive public money. It is a private university and all of its financial support comes from private donations through the Baptist General Convention of Oklahoma, individuals and tuition. It is in fact private property. This is true of BYU, Union, Liberty, Notre Dame and I suspect most if not all of the colleges on the tour.

And the KKK comparison is outrageous - the college has never lynched anyone.

I would disagree with this statement. While I do not know the specifics of OBU, most colleges and universities cannot stay open if their students do not accept Federal Financial Aid. Loans and grants that come from the Department of Education indeed are public monies.

HOWEVER...that said....not every Christian college is teaching students that LGBT's are not equal. Yet, it is pretty clear to see those who do teach that as they are likely not the ones who are welcoming the Equality Riders with open arms.

[Zerbie]

Originally Posted by kara speltz

Thank you Tdogg for reposting that letter from the student. It's such a powerful witness. I was a bit disappointed that no one mentioned it, because every time I read it, it brings tears to my eyes. And you're absolutely right, this letter reflects everything that the Equality Ride is about. . Kara

Don't be disappointed Kara.
I cried when I read it, too.
Nearly posted to tell you so, but then thought there was probably no need. It is extremely touching and I was very glad you shared it with us. So, thank you!

[Diane Vera]

Originally Posted by dewdrop_world

No, these posters do not represent the riders. There are some pretty significant differences between the Equality Ride and this, or any other, web forum.

• The Riders go as a group and can support each other as a group. If one feels threatened or angry, or is just having a bad day, others can help restore him/her to balance before there is an eruption. That kind of support isn't instantly available to a person sitting alone at a computer at home.
• The Riders are chosen for the task and go through non-violence training before setting foot on the bus. The forum is open to anybody, and we have all levels of "practice" of non-violence here. Some people's styles here are not overtly Ghandian but that should not, reasonably, be taken as a measurement of the Ride (just because both are under the Soulforce banner).

So I don't think it's fair to say "these people" when there are totally different dynamics on the Web vs. on the bus.

To the moderators:

Would Soulforce consider offering online classes in Ghandian principles to regulars in the Soulforce forum? I am wondering if perhaps that might help cut down the level of acrimony and make dialogue here more productive. Some threads here, including this one, have gotten very acrimonious lately.

[NathanATX]

Everyone please report any post you feel is possibly in violation of the forum's guidelines. Also, feel free to contact the poster and ask them to restate their post.

Diane, I just created a thread in the "Faith & Nonviolence" forum entitled "NonViolence Training." Does this help?
Nate