how ecumenical are you?

[scott snedeker]

Is your approach ecumenical enough to include spiritualty of pagans, buddhists, agnostics and others?

I feel that The biggest crime in the criminal history of the Catholic church is the persecution of one group after another for not bowing to their thought control. The religious right and orthodox remnants of these ancient sanctimonious predators carry on their forebears' barbary today.

I feel Giving attention to them is unworthy because it turns attention away from building a kinder world by opening hearts to those who also practice connection to unconditional love of self and others. And millions of those others are pagans, buddhists, hindus, reiki masters, and others.

[NathanATX]

"In my father's house are many rooms..."

I believe my "house" is and my church, when I become a pastor, will be big enough to hold everyone on their journeys.

Nate

[Diane Vera]

Originally Posted by scott snedeker

I feel that The biggest crime in the criminal history of the Catholic church is the persecution of one group after another for not bowing to their thought control. The religious right and orthodox remnants of these ancient sanctimonious predators carry on their forebears' barbary today.

I feel Giving attention to them is unworthy because it turns attention away from building a kinder world by opening hearts to those who also practice connection to unconditional love of self and others. And millions of those others are pagans, buddhists, hindus, reiki masters, and others.

To defend the rights of Pagans, Buddhists, etc., we cannot take a head-in-the-sand attitude toward the religious right wing. It is necessary to educate the public about the threat that it poses. In my opinion we should avoid exaggerated rhetoric, but it's not a good idea to ignore the religious right wing on the alleged grounds that it is somehow beneath us to pay them any attention.

Also we should not imagine that, by ignoring them, we would be starving them for attention, publicity, and power. Evangelicals constitute a vast, well-organized subculture. Evangelical leaders can easily get all the publicity they need within their own subculture, without any need for publicity from their enemies or from the mass media. Ditto for other branches of Christianity (and Judaism) that are part of the social base of the religious right wing. Most of the religious right wing's activities have taken place under the radar of the mass media, which generally pays attention to them only when either (1) they've won a major political victory or (2) there has been a scandal of some sort. So, by ignoring them, we would not be weakening them in the slightest. We would be weakening only our own side.

[kara speltz]

Originally Posted by scott snedeker

Is your approach ecumenical enough to include spiritualty of pagans, buddhists, agnostics and others?

I feel that The biggest crime in the criminal history of the Catholic church is the persecution of one group after another for not bowing to their thought control. The religious right and orthodox remnants of these ancient sanctimonious predators carry on their forebears' barbary today.

I feel Giving attention to them is unworthy because it turns attention away from building a kinder world by opening hearts to those who also practice connection to unconditional love of self and others. And millions of those others are pagans, buddhists, hindus, reiki masters, and others.

I was raised Roman Catholic and left the Church in my late twenties. I explored all sorts of electic spiritual paths, primarily buddhism, wicca, Yoruban and Huna. Much to my surprise, I found myself back in the Catholic Church as I entered my fifties because I was able to find a really excellent parish.

Now some twenty years later, it feels to me like all of this spiritual searching fits together perfectly. Each practice brings a special aspect for me. I fully believe that God has a unique and special relationship with all of us, and to suggest that there is but one way to seek God, makes no sense to me. kara

[Wanderer]

Scotty--

I was raised in the Catholic Church (...insert "Darth Vader's Theme" from "The Empire Strikes Back," here...no, I'm not serious...) and there the term "ecumenism" was considered to be properly defined as referring to the action of the Holy Spirit upon Christians to seek full, visible unity in teaching and spiritual life. So, from this point of view, "ecumenism" is a Christian "in-house" affair.

That does not mean that Roman Catholic-raised people do not seek constructive relationships with non-Christians. There is simply a different term used for it: "interreligious dialogue." (That said, the late Pope John Paul II once noted that the term "ecumenism" is being used for what was considered "properly" to be interreligious dialogue...and he didn't exactly seem to mind.)

As for myself, where interreligious dialogue is concerned, I generally follow my own understanding of the Christian interreligious theology of the late Fr. Jacques Dupuis. In a nutshell, God is not ashamed to work with people who are in other religions, and even through those religions. The "God" Who so works is expressly the Christian God--the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. That said, the "other religions" are looked upon as "gifts of God to the nations." While Fr. Dupuis (...and Pope John Paul II...) would say that those other religions contain errors, gaps, and insufficiencies (...remember, this is from a Roman Catholic viewpoint...) my view tends to be that *all* religions have gaps, insufficiencies, and errors. Thus, I would say, that inspiration and prophecy *could* come from any source...as can error. The discernment of prayer and conscience is necessary in any event, to be able to separate the gold from the dross, so to speak.

As for conservative/orthodox Christians...try to be patient with them. The answers they are seeking (...when they are at their best...) are ones that do not involve the surrendering of religious principles. That can be tough, especially when the obvious answers seem to violate those principles. Fr. Dupuis himself was under investigation for a while by the Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, as headed by then-Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, now Pope Benedict XVI. That investigation was initially something of a heresy-hunt...and at the end of it all, the only thing that was actually done was to say that FR. Dupuis seemed to be unclear about certain ideas...which he most expressly affirmed, and included, in his subsequent theology efforts. To my knowledge, Fr. Dupuis was never bothered again. So, again, I would counsel patience. I won't sit here and tell you that it's easy or quick, but sometimes you do live to see some good results.

Wanderer

[u-dog]

a place that the conservative Evangelicals might look for some insight into the issue of inter-faith dialogue is their hero (and mine) C.S. Lewis. In MERE CHRISTIANITY he suggests that it is NOT Christianity which has a corner on the the truth... it is CHRIST (a distinction that Christians have a hard time holding on to) Lewis argued that in Christ, God revealed the truth about God's self and our relationship to God. To the degree that another religion bears witness to the truth that we understand through Christ, that religion is "true". To the degree that another religion contradicts what we know of God through Christ, it is "false". His opinion was that a great deal of what we find revealed in Christ could also be found in other religions. This, it seems to me, provides the basis for actual, substantive dialogue between different faiths without abandoning essential beliefs.

[ladyinred]

I would say while the Christian faith is important and meaningful for many.I also think that Buddhists, Hindus,
Moslems,
Judaism and other religions should be validated as well. There is much wisdom and inspiration in all religions. I say to keep an open mind and while people may not adhere to your faith, it is important to respect others in their convictions and religious views as well.They have much to offer us too.

However, those who adhere to a destructive theology, I will not join forces or ranks with,and will disavow.

[Bearnabas]

Never heard the CS Lewis quote but it helps. I'll agree with a previous poster that "ecumenical" has tended to mean, for me and I think others, a sense of communion with other Christians regardless of denomination. As for pagans, buddhists, agnostics--- I have friends of each, and we find common denominators to talk about.

It's hard though. Raised as a Christian, you tend to want to stamp everyone on the heart as a Christian the moment you find them. "Ah...you think...a soul to be converted or convinced at least..." and that evangelicalism has been hard to get out of my system. But I fear I swing now too far to not even defending my faith (what a poor Knight-Errant I would make on the way to find the Holy Grail...now I would stop off at Greece and look at the ruins in Athens...). I honestly don't know what to do with other faiths...but I don't mind the people in them. They are usually quite nice. And I don't expect them to leave their faith at the door when they come over for coffee....we get some good dialogue about it.

I was raised Southern Baptist (cue the scary music) so it's a residue of strictness that I have to balance (if not subdue) in my thinking that I have it all right. I think what's helped is realizing I don't have it all right. And this leaves me open to considering other faiths...to hear what good things they have to say. It doesn't make me chuck my faith, though, or say that your brand of faith doesn't matter in the long run--it just helps me close my mouth long enough to drink my coffee and listen....

[ladyinred]

We all have much to learn from each other... But in all honesty I cannot say that one particular religion or faith is superior to another , meaning that everyone else who doesn't adhere to a certain dogma or view of religion are inferior or going to hell. In today's world to promote intolerance toward other's of different faiths, creates more problems then it solves..We build barriers and walls rather than bridges of understanding , tolerance, acceptance and dialogue...

I've been exposed to varying religions and have often seen many of the admirable and positive points in them. I might read something about the Catholic church, or a Jewish Rabbi commenting on social issues, or the Buddhist perspective on human nature.... and many times I've found they are often inspirational and enlightening to me as well.

I also heard someone quote that God is " American"....Yeeeeeeeeek. I didn't know Americans had special status or a "hotline" to God that excludes all others.

[Bearnabas]

Ladyinred,

I agree that intolerance is a bad thing...and I don't promote it. But tolerance means understanding another without condemning them... and Christianity, as popularly believed, is a faith that tends to promote a singular path to heaven. It's hard to adhere to Christianity that believes that Christ is the only road to salvation, aka Heaven, and not believe that Christians have the truth... It's so "exclusive" in its very wording and its historical understanding....

This is where it is most difficult I think for Christians to practice the kind of "ecumenical-ness" that Scott was defining in the original post... It's like believing that the doctor who went to medical school knows what he's talking about when referring to your friend's life-threatening illness, and also believing an alternative medicine doctor.... When it comes to your own life or the life of someone you care about, you want to get it right... and if I'm wrong, i want to change. that's why I'm open to discussion.

Christianity tends to dwell on the afterlife, instead of the life here. That's a flaw we can still correct. other faiths--pagan, buddhist--reflect an understanding of the life here and that's what I think would be good to understand from them....a way to make my own faith better, expand my own understanding.... but not leave my faith, not nullify the concepts that I've grown to believe.... just expand the everyday faith i have. I don't see it as intolerance if I'm open to listening and expanding on the Truth that I see present in another faith...but for me tolerance is not negating what you believe in order to believe what each new person believes... and that is a danger too. No one likes the teacher who tells every student they are correct.... or respects a person who has nothing they believe.... (in my experience even agnostics believe something....). I think buddhists, pagans, etc. enjoy having the dialogue with someone who has a christian faith--and believes it-- as much as I enjoy them talking about and believing theirs. Heck I hope they do---maybe they just like my coffee...

[ladyinred]

LOL.. Do you make good coffee? But I guess what you are trying to say is you adhere to what is right for you while respecting those of other faiths.. I hope I'm reading this right?? But I would not say for you to leave your faith if that is what works for you or makes sense.. Nor to abandon what you choose to believe.

But I also see it as the right of others to follow their own convictions and their faith.. without being told they are wrong either. I don't think they would want to abandon their faith either. I for one would never tell a Catholic to become a Baptist or vice versa.. I hope I'm making sense..

[Bearnabas]

Hehe. I make great coffee and sometimes I put some vanilla/caramel creamer and sometimes I don't.... but the coffee is warm and tasty. Used to be I could get a bean called "Christmas Tradition" ---oh, my, it was good. Cinammon and vanilla.... wow. I could have served that coffee to every person in my neighborhood...and one day I will! Hehe.

[ladyinred]

LOL maybe you ought to open your own coffee shop.. you'd probably do good business. I think I'd be one of your first customers, I do know I appreciate a good cup of coffee.

[Bearnabas]

That would be cool. Instead, I frequent a local coffeeshop and try to give them a lot of business. They make excellent coffee. And not too bad withtheir pastries, soups and pizzas either....

It's hard to outdo a good coffeeshop.

It's better to just make a coffeeshop a home.

Perhaps that's a good metaphor for what we're talking about. When you find a faith that fits you...invite others to experience it too. If they like it, they'll come back for the coffee. If they don't then they will find a coffeeshop that fits them. But I can't leave good coffee (and pastries, soups and pizzas) when I've found it! But I don't mind visiting new ones either and sampling their soups, pastries, pizzas and exotic things.... LOL

[ladyinred]

LOL. Good one.( Or as a friend of mine would say,"Bravo!!!")
Makes alot of sense. I also like tea, ever try any good one(s)? ( I've found I like peppermint, Chamomile,Mango, Black currant...)

[Wanderer]

Bearnabas--

Be careful with your understanding, both of Christianity, and of other faiths. There were two things I noticed in your post.

1. You said that Christianity "is a faith that tends to promote a singular path to heaven." That much is true. However, it does not follow from that that no other religion does the same thing--Islam does, at least in some interpretations. There are even strains of Hinduism that teach that one cannot have a happy afterlife without being a member of their particular group, and believing and following their teachings. (Oh...and as a precaution...I hope that you are not permitting conservative Fundamentalists to claim the "Christian" title all to themselves...they don't recognize even mainstream Protestants, let alone Anglicans, the Eastern Orthodox, or Roman Catholics as being Christians *at* *all.*)

2. You also said that Christianity "tends to focus on the afterlife, instead of the life here." That's half true. Christianity does, indeed, focus on the afterlife. But (...and this is especially true of Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholic Christians...) Christians believe that the judgement of their souls for all eternity rests in part on how they have treated their fellow man. (See in the Gospel of St. Matthew, I think it's chapter 25, "Whatsoever you do to the least of my brothers....) So, for Christians to focus on the afterlife, *is* to focus on the here-and-now. The two cannot be separated.

Just my $0.02.

Wanderer

[antonyh]

Originally Posted by Bearnabas

Christianity tends to dwell on the afterlife, instead of the life here. That's a flaw we can still correct.

Excellent point. After studying Buddhism and Stoic Philosophy, I agree that one of the major problems with Christianity is the focus on the after life instead of the present, or a focus on the present only as a means to attain the after life.

Jesus said to worry only about today. So you're right, it is a flaw that can be corrected.

[Blossom]

[QUOTE=Bearnabas;25493]Christianity tends to dwell on the afterlife, instead of the life here. That's a flaw we can still correct. other faiths--pagan, buddhist--reflect an understanding of the life here and that's what I think would be good to understand from them....a way to make my own faith better, expand my own understanding.... but not leave my faith, not nullify the concepts that I've grown to believe.... just expand the everyday faith i have. I don't see it as intolerance if I'm open to listening and expanding on the Truth that I see present in another faith...but for me tolerance is not negating what you believe in order to believe what each new person believes... and that is a danger too. No one likes the teacher who tells every student they are correct.... or respects a person who has nothing they believe.... [QUOTE]

Interesting conversation and a great post (I hated to cut out part of it). There are Christian groups that hold together the already-not yet nature of the Kingdom of God. Historically, the evangelical movement was concerned for both the well-being of people in this life as well as in the next. Although we often see conservative churches focusing on heaven and liberal churches focusing on social justice now, there are many groups that do both (although the media rarely focuses on them). John Wesley (Methodist founder) was a great example of living out God's Kingdom on earth while still looking to the other side of eternity. He actually lived the life of caring for the sick and needy, and giving (very) generously while still preaching the unique and divine nature of Jesus Christ.

[scott snedeker]

Originally Posted by Bearnabas

This is where it is most difficult I think for Christians to practice the kind of "ecumenical-ness" that Scott was defining in the original post... It's like believing that the doctor who went to medical school knows what he's talking about when referring to your friend's life-threatening illness, and also believing an alternative medicine doctor.... When it comes to your own life or the life of someone you care about, you want to get it right...

I hadn't really thought of this fear of divine punishment with eternal damnation in christians if they have a metaphysical deviation from their original paradigm. [ Start the Emperor's theme ]

Yikes! what would you suggest I do to avoid activating this fear in christians?

[Wanderer]

Scotty...

...unfortunately...

...you most likely *can't* avoid activating fear in some Christians...especially those who build their lives around the idea that the whole world is threatening.

I'm sorry. I wish I had better news for you...but I don't. Those who are not threatened by you, you don't have to worry about. Try not to worry about the others--it's wasted energy, I'm afraid.

Wanderer