From a Student at a School The "Equality Ride" is visiting.

[revtj]

I just saw Tammy Faye (Baker) Messner on Larry King Live. It's about the 3rd time she's been on the show since her struggle with cancer began.

How is it that she openly loves gay people, not to mention the self-proclaimed 'agnostic Jew' Larry King, as a Pentecostal?

She is the *only* example of "love the sinner not the sin" I have ever seen that truly lives by the axiom.

In the documentary, "The Eyes of Tammy Faye", narrator RuPaul points out that she was the first and only televangelist in the '80s to mention AIDS and bring HIV+ people on to the show in a loving way. That's pretty amazing when you realize the President of the US wouldn't do as much.

So why can't Tammy Faye set a standard for AofG? I think this woman knows the love of Jesus has no boundaries. <mascara running>

[Jamie McDaniel]

Originally Posted by Venari

Regent cooperated with the Equality Ride and opened their campus to them to dialogue, yet they continued to be smeared to the media by the Equality Ride.

Venari, it annoys me that you give so much credit to Pat Robertson's Regent University (and the other schools with anti-gay policies on the books) and so little to the Equality Ride team. Yes we had a gnat in our soup, but what about the camel?

Smear? Please. The Equality Ride page that contained information on Regent (www.equalityride.com/regent) should have been updated ASAP to reflect the fact that Regent did finally say the Riders would be allowed on campus. Instead that page continued to read "Regent University has refused dialogue thus far with the Equality Ride, but the riders are undeterred in their hope for dialogue with the school." That's it. That's the big offense. It's clear to me that Regent was looking for a reason to uninvite the Equality Ride.

You're free to keep your funny glasses on and see events as you do, but I'm convinced there has to be a certain firmness in demanding justice. Soulforce will certainly apologize where forgiveness is needed, but how wrong it is to call for the oppressed to apologize to the oppressor for every minor misstep in their stride towards freedom.

I do appreciate the fact that you are for equal rights. Yet it seems apparent to me you are very much against what I feel it will take to get there. Here's a quote that speaks to me:

Freedom is not some lavish dish that the white man will pass out on a silver platter while the Negro merely furnishes the appetite.

Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.

[Venari]

Originally Posted by Jamie McDaniel

Venari, it annoys me that you give so much credit to Pat Robertson's Regent University (and the other schools with anti-gay policies on the books) and so little to the Equality Ride team. Yes we had a gnat in our soup, but what about the camel?

Smear? Please. The Equality Ride page that contained information on Regent (www.equalityride.com/regent) should have been updated ASAP to reflect the fact that Regent did finally say the Riders would be allowed on campus. Instead that page continued to read "Regent University has refused dialogue thus far with the Equality Ride, but the riders are undeterred in their hope for dialogue with the school." That's it. That's the big offense. It's clear to me that Regent was looking for a reason to uninvite the Equality Ride.

Jamie,

As I said I can only present my view point. But I think there is a difference between the apology you are thinking of and the one I am thinking of. Basically what I was meaning is a public statement that acknowledges a mistake was made and clarifies there was no intention to "smear" the school.

I brought forth that because that is a major argument against allowing Soulforce to come onto campuses and I was looking for a response why it is untrue. I probably failed in my communication that I know it is "rhetoric" used to discredit Soulforce, which is why I post here ... because in "real-life" only hear one side of this situation... so I come here to being balance to what I am told to what Solforce intentions are. That way I can bring a balance to the discussions I am involved in.

Originally Posted by Jamie McDaniel

You're free to keep your funny glasses on and see events as you do ...

I am not sure what to make of this statement. I have always been upfront that I think both the school and the Equality Ride are partially wrong in how they handle the situation and the policies they have, I have also always been up front that I side with my school and I have made what my intention here are to be very clear ... that is to generate understanding between each "side" so this will not become an "us vs. them" situation.

But if you or anyone else feels that my views are too clouded by my perspective and I have nothing more to offer this community I will freely withdraw and discontinue posting.

-Venari

[Venari]

Originally Posted by revtj

So why can't Tammy Faye set a standard for AofG? I think this woman knows the love of Jesus has no boundaries. <mascara running>

Rev. TJ,

I appreciate your question. Jim Baker and Tammy Faye attended North Central University. But they broke from the denomination, I am not sure when but I believe it was before the start of their TV ministry. If Tammy Faye has rejoined I have no clue and sadly I do not know much about her. But what I will say is I think she is an amaizing person who has survived the extreme highs and the extreme lows of life and held onto her faith in God.

-Venari

[Dash]

Venari,

First things first....Yes, I did see the new Dr. Who on SciFi, and I think it rocked! I keep SciFi on the air, I watch it so much!

And...mistakes... You know, I'm not involved in the Ride process in anyway other than as a passionate supporter. I certainly can't speak to any mistakes, or miscommunications, or poor communication that might come from either party.

I don't doubt that you fully understand how intensely emotional these issues are for both sides. Just the fact that these young people are willing to take these weeks out of their lives and take the risk of awkward confrontation and possible arrest shows how passionate they must be about it. And, those in the Church who see these young people as sinners endorsing and promoting a sinful way of life are no less passionate about protecting their community. With all this passion driving the issue, mistakes will be made...harsh words will be said. It still doesn't mean that there can't be love on both sides. And when the time comes, it doesn't mean we all can't embrace and move forward peacefully, if even in peaceful disagreement.

One of the very few times that I've lost my temper in public as an adult took place several years ago. I was working in an office at Oklahoma State University as staff. We also employed some work study students. Now, once a year, it seemed like there would be a "Gay/Straight" war on campus. Bitter rhetoric would be lobbed back and forth like bombs in the paper and on the sidewalks. Well, during one of these periods, a student worker began making the kind of cruel comments about gays that struck a nerve in me. Though I, much older, was not hurt personally, I felt such a protective indignation for young students on the campus that had to deal with his kind of impertinant attitudes. I turned red and shook and raised my voice to tell him how those kind of statements are what lead young men and women to kill themselves out of desperation. Something I had once tried to do myself (in what must have been the most ineffectual and embarrassing way possible).

Anyway, I was not proud then of my methods in communicating with him. I certainly made an impression, and I hope that in the end it led him to be kinder in his approach to gay people. My point is...we believe this so strongly that sometimes it's all we can do to be civil to a society from which we have received such condemnation. Help us by understanding that we are doing the best we can... I'm so glad you've been here, and I hope that you will stay around long enough to share your experience of having the Equality Riders come to your campus.

I sure hope that it is a good one.

[Jamie McDaniel]

Originally Posted by Venari

But if you or anyone else feels that my views are too clouded by my perspective and I have nothing more to offer this community I will freely withdraw and discontinue posting.

No... your journey, Venari, is now tied up with ours. You'd be missed if you left.

I'm not directly on the Equality Ride team, I offer staff support for our internet presence. So without asking I don't know the exact communications that have taken place between your school and the Equality Ride team. I don't even know which school you're at, though there are clues.

Anyway, a typical adminstration at one of these schools would probably like to come across as polite to the riders while still keeping the current policies in place. I've seen a similiar situation played out at churches that my local Soulforce group went to. Few leaders are actually leaders. Most just like to maintain the peace.

So what to do? Well, the president of the university could take a courageous stand and say that it is a new day at ______ University and call for real changes to anti-gay policies. Such a move would likely get him or her into serious trouble, and though I feel it is the right thing, it is probably not going to happen. For the record, I would also point out that too many GLBT people are unwilling to put their jobs on the line by coming out of the closet, so that problem is not merely one-sided.

Another thing the president could do would be to invite the riders on and through the public meetings try to discover where common ground exists and where differences exist. That information could then be put into a document and distributed to students and the media. I should think the Equality Ride team, in interviews with the media, would still call discrimination what it is -- after all, that's why your school made the list of possible stops. But I imagine handling it that way would make the media cast your school in a more positive light.

Here's a story. I once led a small group to vigil at an anti-gay Baptist church (though the church claimed it was not anti-gay.) The media used a good section of the article to point out that the parishioners brought us donuts. I was like, "Where is all the reporting on their anti-gay policies? They bring me a donut and that gets the attention!? Am I supposed to sell my birthright for a pastry?" So don't believe that GLBT activists control the media.

You school doesn't want the riders to get arrested and Soulforce would like to avoid having to do a civil disobedience as well. Fines are usually $250+ per rider and I understand we also have to get several of the riders back to Lynchburg and also Virginia Beach for court appearances. So that now presents a challenge to the schedule.

[ochast]

Originally Posted by Venari

I guess, my point is the rule of no sexual activity outside of marriage is equally applied to all students and due to events it had to be clarified that same-sex activity was included in that.

Which leaves me confused; removal of the same-sex activity probation would only create a double standard between heterosexual and homosexual students.

Venari,
You make a very good point that the "no extra-marital sex" rule could have used clarification that it applies to all students regardless of the genders involved, given that one student tried to create a loophole. I'd like to suggest a different way to go about this that does not single out homosexual activity -- and thus removes the discriminatory wording that singles out LGB students.

As it currently stands:

Originally Posted by North Central University

Student Life Guide: Community Life Expectations: Sexual Behaviors

NCU expects all members of the community to refrain from any form of sexual immorality including but not limited to: adultery, promiscuity, any form of extramarital sexual activity (touching of intimate parts with or without clothing), homosexual behavior, or viewing pornography. Co-habitation is also considered unacceptable. Discretion is expected in the public display of affection.

Admissions Guide: Responsibilities of Membership
Certain practices that are forbidden in Scripture are not permitted in the lives of the members of the North Central Community. Sexual relationships outside of marriage, homosexual relationships, pornography, theft, drunkenness, dishonesty (including cheating and plagiarism), and disobedience to the government (except in those rare instances where obedience to civil authority would violate a biblically informed conscience) are examples of practices that are unacceptable.

What would you say to removing "homosexual behavior" and "homosexual relationships" if there were a phrase added along the lines of "between persons of any genders" or "regardless of the gender of the participants" after the mentions of extramarital sex? This would plug any potential loophole without discriminatory language, without creating a double standard, and Equality Ride would have no need nor interest in coming to your campus.

Problem solved and everyone's happy? If not, could you clarify what I'm not seeing here?

And Venari, I'd like to re-iterate my thanks for being willing to have this dialogue. From some of your comments I'd hazard that it hasn't always been easy for you.

Good wishes, always,
Michael

[Venari]

Originally Posted by Jamie McDaniel

No... your journey, Venari, is now tied up with ours. You'd be missed if you left.

Thank you I do feel honoured to be welcomed into this community.

Originally Posted by Jamie McDaniel

Here's a story. I once led a small group to vigil at an anti-gay Baptist church (though the church claimed it was not anti-gay.) The media used a good section of the article to point out that the parishioners brought us donuts. I was like, "Where is all the reporting on their anti-gay policies? They bring me a donut and that gets the attention!? Am I supposed to sell my birthright for a pastry?" So don't believe that GLBT activists control the media.

I appreciate you sharing this story. One of most common "side-effects" of attending a Christian university is the tendency to live in a bubble where your life at the school becomes a world onto its self ... you live around like minded Christians, you go the same Churches as them and you either work on campus or at a nearby store that should be considered part of the school by the sheer number of students.

But which is why when I made my list of possible way to look at the situation I left the 3rd on blank as I have no doubt there is something I will fail to see that would be obvious to someone else.

I see the value to your story as many people think a good way would to bring food or drinks to the Riders, but I see how that can be almost a condescending gesture. Asking someone to accept the most you'll give them is a mere drink or pastry... but then I guess what has to be weighed is the heart behind the gesture.

-Venari

[Venari]

Originally Posted by ochast

What would you say to removing "homosexual behavior" and "homosexual relationships" if there were a phrase added along the lines of "between persons of any genders" or "regardless of the gender of the participants" after the mentions of extramarital sex? This would plug any potential loophole without discriminatory language, without creating a double standard, and Equality Ride would have no need nor interest in coming to your campus.

Michael,

I want to thank you for your post. In the case of North Centrals rules that could work as a compromise. I will pass the idea along to my fellow students and see what they think and if we can gather enough strength to propose a change along those lines. Either way you have given my a new idea.

-Venari

[Venari]

Below is a link to the official statement made by North Central University about the Equality Ride. Since we have been discussing their policies I thought this would be a good place to post their statement.

-Venari

Statement regarding the Equality Ride on April 17

[Jamie McDaniel]

Originally Posted by Jamie McDaniel

Here's a story. I once led a small group to vigil at an anti-gay Baptist church (though the church claimed it was not anti-gay.) The media used a good section of the article to point out that the parishioners brought us donuts. I was like, "Where is all the reporting on their anti-gay policies? They bring me a donut and that gets the attention!? Am I supposed to sell my birthright for a pastry?" So don't believe that GLBT activists control the media.

Originally Posted by Venari

I see the value to your story as many people think a good way would to bring food or drinks to the Riders, but I see how that can be almost a condescending gesture. Asking someone to accept the most you'll give them is a mere drink or pastry... but then I guess what has to be weighed is the heart behind the gesture.

I would like to add that there was one exception and it happened at Thomas Road Baptist church. Two young women brought water and donuts to the Soulforce volunteers on the vigil line. We recognized their courage because at a fundamentalist church that calls women to be submissive to male leadership, their act could have got them into trouble. But whenever the gesture is made by those in power, I always feel conflict about whether to accept. Others may feel differently and this might make a good thread since it seems to happen frequently.

On the postive side, I thought the students at Lee coming out to clean the defacement off the Equality Ride bus was a really super thing to do.