Biblical problems with gay marriage?

[pnggrad79]

Originally Posted by ladyinred

Here again you are correct ,Jesus broke the sabbath rules ,even though it in the old testament expressly states those who work on the sabbath shall be put to death, they were not even allowed to light fires in their own homes.( He was often criticized for teaching and healing on the sabbath and for he and the disciples harvesting grain on the sabbath to eat which was considered work by the pharisees,of course according to the bible you cannot even gather sticks on the sabbath in the old testament)

In the old testament ,It says God commanded an eye for an eye ,a tooth for a tooth,Jesus said ye had heard in the days of old where it is written an eye for an eye , a tooth for a tooth, but I say unto you ,Love your enemies and do good to those who persecute you..
If these were apparent mandates given by God why did Jesus change them ,wouldn't that have been against God and his commands? Apparently there was something wrong with the old system in the first place and why Christ came was to correct the erroneous notions people had about God .It also shows(To me PROVES) that the bible is not the inerrant and infallible word of God because Jesus contradicted the old testament mandates and rules many times.(Not fasting for one,associating with the "heathen" for another, and many others)

Personally I haven't seen anything in the bible where it claims it is infallible or inerrant. Have any of you all read that statement or claim in the bible, I haven't.

LadyinRed,
There was something wrong with the OLD system, that is why is called the OLD testament. If Zoom would read his Bible, all of it, he would notice that in Hebrews, it tells us all the way through it that Jesus was the new covenant, the new promise, the hope of salvation. He broke through an obsolete system of rules and regulations that from the outset, God knew creation couldn't meet. Therefore, they had the system of blood sacrifices. Jesus was the finisher of that sacrifice, he paid the final price once and for all, finishing the covenant God wanted with his creation. That is tremendous hope for gays and lesbians, that on that day when Christ died, he became us on the cross, effectively paying the price for us as us, and now God looks at us through the blood of Christ, and not through that old system. We are clean, we are whole, we are free!

A lot of conservative Christians conveniently forget that little part, and like to point fingers because they pay lip service to grace, and speak about it, sing about it, but rarely dispense it as we saw with Zoom. He is just an example of those who hate us and are out to prove we are wrong. He needs our prayers and our compassion. Jesus told us to pray for our accuser and love those who spitefully use us. Hard to do, but....

I am not aware of any place in the Bible that says it is inerrant and infallible. The Bible is replete with examples of how God changes his mind, alters his plan, pursues another course.

Sadly, the Christian community shakes its collective head and says,"God, you're not doing it right, all this grace and love stuff, don't you realize, if we extend grace to all the homosexuals then they are going to infiltrate our churches, and government and poison our children's minds. We can't do that, God. See, where you went wrong is, you said "Whosoever" when we really don't want all the "Undesirables". We can let the divorcees in, because God, if we didn't, our churches would be empty and how are we going to afford that new Lexus and that million dollar home we just bought? But we draw the line at homosexuals, because, well, I love my hairdresser and my mechanic, but that is where they need to stay, as servants and taxpayers to the white, straight establishment. We can't treat them like you do, because well, it would just look bad on us, God. So, forgive us God, but you're not doing it right. We will just correct it for you and you can stay up there in heaven and do your thing, and we will just take care of it for you." And that is exactly what they do, and all the while, the church continues to resemble less and less what Christ intended for the church to be. The church today is losing credibility and stature, people no longer feel the church has anything to offer because it is in the business of condemning people instead of welcoming them, and closing its doors to homosexuals, and encouraging families to disown their gay children, etc.

It is sad, but what we are seeing with this latest bandwagon the Christians are on, is a last desperate attempt to control the hearts and minds of the people. They are losing, and they know it. They won't go down without a fight, but they always lose- slavery (cost this nation a Civil War), women's rights(got the right to vote in 1919 and reproductive freedom in 1973), the Inquisition(lasted 300 years) the Holocaust(last 12 years), the Crusades( lasted about 400 years give or take), all examples of when people used Christianity and the Bible to justify murder and all manner of evil over the centuries. Nowhere does the Bible give permission for any of this, but this is what the Church has done and it just doesn't have much credibility anymore.

So Zoom is just misguided and misinformed and who knows why he joined this forum. He will have to answer to God for that one, but Keltic did the right thing in kicking him out. This needs to be a safe place for gay and lesbian, bi, or trans people to come and feel like they have a place to be free and talk, laugh, argue, love and pray for one another. God knows we need a safe place when so much of our world is not safe, or welcoming.

[ladyinred]

"This needs to be a safe place for gay and lesbian, bi, or trans people to come and feel like they have a place to be free and talk, laugh, argue, love and pray for one another. God knows we need a safe place when so much of our world is not safe, or welcoming. " I agree whole heartledly. I laughed about your bit on the lexus.. LOL Yes true the bible throughout the course of history has proved change is possible and even necessary, that" rules" of the past were many times too rigid or strict to adhere to(as in the case of Jesus breaking the sabbath, think how awful it would be if we took old sabbath rules today and applied them to firemen, medical personnel, policemen ,people who had to work on Sunday would have to be put to death, it sounds ridiculous doesn't it, especially if you were having a heart attack and needed to be rushed to the hospital and there had to be someone driving the ambulance to get you there. But I think the bible isn't the end either, there is still a process going on with God and his creation , call it evolution if you want.
We all now know the earth is not flat and probably several billions of years old, the people in the old testament didn't have the technology back then to understand those things. They couldn't see the world through a microscope, there were no archeologists and scientists back then to prove other -wise.

But how does God's grace speak to LGBT people as Alakazoom speaks of it. How many LGBT people have cried in the dark begging God to change them but to no avail only to commit suicide and feel like they were outcasts and unloved by God..That's not God's grace and mercy when it speaks to their own destruction, how does that save a person? I've even written FRC years ago on this , their answer? God is convicting them of their sin. Like who cares. Go drop dead , God is convicting you of your "evil" ways. They just don't get it.They were impervious to the pain .Their words were like hollow registers. No compassion, no ,"Gee, that sounds so horrible is there any way we can help this person,we don't want that to happen." Nothing.
Imagine someone you dearly loved and cared about who became suicidal and distraught,would you say ,"Gee honey, I guess God is convicting you of your evil ways"? Doesn't that sound preposterous? You would probably go out of your way to get them help so they won't do something that drastic.You would not want them to suffer and hurt that way.And you certainly wouldn't want to compound the problem by making it worse for them.

[Emproph]

Originally Posted by fredyboy

I wouldn't understand why people would do it.

"One common misunderstanding is that we DO gay."
~awediot

[pnggrad79]

Originally Posted by Emproph

"One common misunderstanding is that we DO gay."
~awediot

Zoom wouldn't understand because he is not gay. And typically when things happen that we don't understand, we automatically assume they are bad. That is what Zoom is doing and the larger Christian church as a whole. The only people who do understand what it is to be gay and Christian are gay Christians.

Zoom is a "ro"(as Keltic says) who thinks that anyone who doesn't think he does is wrong, and he is wrong. He likes to put God in a tiny little box and use him to further his misguided, and warped agenda. I feel sorry for people like him. They are sad little people who have too much time on their hands, and who have something to prove. He needs to just go on with himself and leave us alone.

[d_pedr]

Originally Posted by alakazoom87

I'm trying to follow what you are saying here:

Are you saying that by having sex you are automatically married?

Hi, maybe in some way I am, as that is an interpretation that could be given.

Many times in the Bible it talks of weddings (like Jacob and Leah) and then says something like he took her into his tent and slept with her and she became his wife - then in the morning, he finds its Leah not Rachel whom he wanted to marry.
i.e. its not the wedding that does it.

I think that it needs the committed relationship too, to realy be a marriage.

One thing I am sure of is that sex changes the nature of a relationship.

In some ways I was trying to get more discussion, maybe I'll start another thread.

love and hugs

[tymejumper]

Originally Posted by ladyinred

tymejumper, it is silly to believe that God's wrath is on homosexuals by punnishing them with aids. Look at Africa with the 12 million + children being orphaned because of the aids epidemic, do you honestly think God would punnish children by making them orphaned and left to fend on their own with no parents and to roam the streets without a home.Does that sound fair? Does that sound like what a loving merciful God would do? Do you think children should have to suffer because of parents mistakes.If people believe that aids has anything to do with God's wrath, he must be pretty cruel to take it out on innocent children who have no control over their parents behavior.

better put than in my reply!

[tymejumper]

Originally Posted by Daniel

If this is your version of compassion and Christian love, you have a long way to go.

You don't understand gay people because you are busy judging them, and perhaps, even yourself.

You think your message that I and my husband of 15 years are detestable is a 'good work'? Sorry. Doesn't feel good to me.

You views are oppressive and misguided if only from a lack of knowledge and understanding of scripture itself. Maybe you will come to see this in this lifetime.

Love will find a way.

I talked to my mother about this forum. She had the best answer. God don't make junk!

I believe that one can find anything they want to in the Bible. When afican americans were fighting for freedom, people used the Bible to "prove" that God didn't want them to be free! The problem comes in when people attempt to interpret the Bible and put their own spin on it. They read whatever they wish to into it. Many books were taken out or edited over the two thousand odd years it has been around and unless we actually go back and sit at Jesus' knee and ask him, we will never truly know what was said. It is in my opinion, best to use the Bible as guide book, not as an EXACT plan for living. The basics being : be good to each other, love each other, don't lie,cheat or steal from each other, help others in need, respect your elders and love your children, find someone to love for your life and be faithful to that person and love them with a full heart, be happy, and be happy with what you have not always yearning for what others have.

Congrats on 15 years!!!!!

[tdogg]

Zoom/Fredy/Matthew, if you are reading this, in your future endeavors it would be helpful for you to understand the meaning of the word "gospel".

It means GOOD NEWS, which is not what you have been 'witnessing' here on these threads. It does not mean hell and condemnation, hate or accusation.

I truly pray that God will help you to open your eyes, ears and then your mind and heart. That way you will be prepared to spread the GOOD NEWS for which you feel such a calling.

Compassion and love to you...