Mystery and Uncertainty in Christian Belief

[Steven E. Webster]

Originally Posted by U-dog

I believe this too, Sailaway! but I always have to remind myself that the scripture on which this belief is based is John's gospel where Jesus is understood to be the incarnation of the Eternal Logos. So when Jesus says "I am the way, the truth, and the light and no one comes to the father but by me" is it Jesus of Nazareth speaking? or the Divine Logos.. the Word of God? I rather think that its the latter rather than the former. And while Jesus Christ is the perfect manifestation of the Logos, nowhere in Scripture does it say that the Logos is ONLY manisfested in Christ.

Zerbie wrote:

I didn't know that this was a Christian thing to believe. Is this common? Did you come to this on your own or from someone else?

U-dog wrote"

I have personally known MANY people who don't claim the name of Jesus but who nonetheless have clearly been transformed by the Word of God that Jesus manifested. Some of them even post on this forum!!

Zerbie,
U-dog's view is not peculiar at all. The "Logos" or "Word of God" manifested in Jesus in the New Testament is described as a woman in the Old Testament--Lady Wisdom or Sophia. The huge church (now a mosque) in Istanbul was named St. Sophia in honor of Lady Wisdom. Lady Wisdom, like the Logos or Word in John was with God at the beginning of Creation and helped bring the whole thing about. (Fundamentalists, naturally, dismiss all this as "Goddess worship.")

While there seems to be a predominant notion that right-believing Christians think they have the only way to God, the fact is that there are alternative Christian views on that in both Protestant and Catholic theology. The disputed Christian doctrine that God is going to save everyone is called "Universalism" and has an ancient history in the church. My own (Methodist) denominational hero, John Wesley, taught that God's grace was universal and is the source of all the good in the world--including all the good that comes from what he called "honest heathen"--in various places Wesley makes it clear that he thinks "honest heathen" are among "the saved." You, too, might be an "honest heathen," Zerbie!

Christianity simply cannot be at war for ever with all the other faiths of the world! At least I hope not! Fundamentalists really despise interfaith cooperation that doesn't insist that the non-Christians must eventually convert or burn--but that's not the universal view among Christians.

I'm really excited about this story at Ex-Gay Watch:
http://www.exgaywatch.com/wp/2007/06...-gays-ex-gays/
This is an example of a Pentecostal preacher who is both a Universalist and LGBT friendly!

Steven Webster

[Zerbie]

Originally Posted by u-dog

I thought of it on my own and then I read it... I'm not certain but I think it was in Mere Christianity by CS Lewis... Brent? Andy? a little help here. Is that a CS Lewis thing? or was it somebody else?

Hmm. I doubt it. That's about the only "christian" book I've ever read, and I don't recall ever coming across that description of Jesus in any christian sources.

And Zerb! I had to think of SOME WAY to get you in to heaven cuz it shor wouldn't be much of a party without you!

Um. . . thanks for the plane ticket. . .?

Zerb calls: Party in heaven!! Bring the food!!

[antonyh]

Originally Posted by u-dog

And while Jesus Christ is the perfect manifestation of the Logos, nowhere in Scripture does it say that the Logos is ONLY manisfested in Christ. I have personally known MANY people who don't claim the name of Jesus but who nonetheless have clearly been transformed by the Word of God that Jesus manifested. Some of them even post on this forum!!

It is interesting to understand the Logos in the context of ancient philosophy. According to Pierre Haddot:

Originally Posted by Haddot

Christian philosophy was made possible by the ambiguity of the Greek word Logos. Since Heraclitus, the notion of the Logos has been a central concept of Greek philosophy, since it could signify "word" and "discourse" as well as "reason." In particular, the Stoics believed that the Logos, conceived as a rational force, was immanent in the world, in human beings, and in each individual...

Beginning in the second century A.D., Christian authors--called "Apologists" because they tried to present Christianity in a form understandable to the Greco-Roman world--used the notion of the Logos to define Christianity as the philosophy. Greek philosophers, they claimed, had thus far possessed only portions of the Logos, mere elements of the True Discourse and of perfect Reason; but Christians were in possession of the Logos-- that is, the True Discourse and perfect Reason incarnate in Jesus Christ...

The transformation of Christianity into philosophy became even more marked with Clement of Alexandria, in third-century Alexandria. For Clement, Christianity, as the complete revelation of the Logos, was the true philosophy, which "teaches us to conduct ourselves so as to resemble God, and accept the divine plan as the guiding principle of all our education." 238-239

http://astore.amazon.com/thst-20/det...479871-3835611

For me personally, I've back tracked to the original Greek concept of Logos, that there is a rational force immanent in the world, in human beings and in creation. I am very uncomfortable with the New Testament adding labels to the Logos, i.e. Jesus Christ.

I think the ancient Greeks were right to maintain the ambiguity around the concept of the Logos.

Hence my caution in the meditation posted earlier in the thread about "labeling" my experience of the divine:
http://www.soulforce.org/forums/show...0&postcount=10

[Zerbie]

Originally Posted by u-dog

Jesus is understood to be the incarnation of the Eternal Logos. So when Jesus says "I am the way, the truth, and the light and no one comes to the father but by me" is it Jesus of Nazareth speaking? or the Divine Logos.. the Word of God? I rather think that its the latter rather than the former. And while Jesus Christ is the perfect manifestation of the Logos, nowhere in Scripture does it say that the Logos is ONLY manisfested in Christ.

!

Dave, Stephen,

The above paragraph describes my understanding of Jesus perfectly. What was significant about the man Jesus was that he embodied the Word.

There are two reasons why I am not Christian:

1. because perfect embodiment manifests in beings other than the physical body of Jesus

and
2. the terrible blasphemous thing that was done by a Christian leader when I was a little girl, which led to many thousands of deaths, and since he was the first Christian I ever saw, he defined them all.

[antonyh]

Originally Posted by Zerbie

2. the terrible blasphemous thing that was done by a Christian leader when I was a little girl, which led to many thousands of deaths, and since he was the first Christian I ever saw, he defined them all.

Can you elaborate on this Zerbie.

[Zerbie]

Originally Posted by antonyh

Can you elaborate on this Zerbie.

Might be better if it was its own thread, to not hijack this one.

[BrentRichards]

Originally Posted by u-dog

I thought of it on my own and then I read it... I'm not certain but I think it was in Mere Christianity by CS Lewis... Brent? Andy? a little help here. Is that a CS Lewis thing? or was it somebody else?

Yes and no ... I'm not aware of Lewis making the incarnate Jesus/eternal Logos distinction, but he definitely posited (in MC, yes) that it might be possible to be saved THROUGH Christ without an overt faith IN Christ, by name. This, to my mind, is a natural outgrowth of the "true faith" (humble, arent' I?) that salvation is not, as often misstated, through FAITH alone, but rather through GRACE alone ... God's work, beginning to end, not ours: "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy." I like to tell fundies ... "Don't tell God who He can't save."

[paul]

Pablo,
Your a man after my own heart, I like your take.

Something happens when we say "I know." Suddenly we go deaf and blind, but not mute...our mouth goes into high gear when we "know." But when we know we stop looking and listening, there's no need, we "know" already.

Was it the mistake of the pharisees that they followed a knowledge of God written down instead of following God? In so doing, did they miss God when God stood before them?
I guess it will be left to the heathen to quote scripture since everyone else has already been brilliant. I'll have to rely on someone elses brilliance with a few thoughts you evoke. (sorry to you purists, this is from memory)

to know is to see but "the righteous walk by faith, not by sight."

"we see through a glass darkly, so these three things are very important: faith, hope and love, but the greatest is love."