estranged from family?

[Zerbie]

Originally Posted by sailaway58

This is an interesting look into relationship. I sounds like it is not easy for anyone to deal with these issues.
This past week I have been with my boys and my grand children. The first time we all have been together for a long time. The reason I may be a fake is while I am coming a long way toward acceptance and understanding of GLBT's if one of my boys "came out" I can't say I wouldn't be disappointed. In fact I hope to never have to deal with it.
As I read about what some of you deal with makes it even more understandable as to why I should not be silent about the inclusion of the GLBT community in our faith.
I am uncomfortable reading about your relationships, I can only imagine the difficulty in family relationships coming to terms with reality. My oldest son once came home with a girl we all learned to hate, that was tough enough.
(She is gone)

Originally Posted by pnggrad79

Sailaway,
Why would you feel in conflict with me? I am a lesbian who would like to see the straight world shape up and stop being hypocritical about their own lives and quit pointing fingers at glbt's. I would like to see James Dobson shut his stupid mouth and quit spreading downright lies about us and keep his straight and very narrow opinions to himself. Doesn't he have a life?
I have no conflict with you, but if you really feel conflict being here, why are you here? I love your signature, doesn't it really say how you feel or did you just think it was clever? I guess I am just confused as to what you're really trying to say here.

Hi all,

PNG, as I see it, Sailor is still finding his way through the tar-pit of homophobia and just now unveiling what he knows is true in his heart. For all of us, this was a process of whatever length in time, and Sailor has shown himself a kind, caring, as Dave says "stalwart defender" of gay persons. I think it's very honest of him, and a fact of human nature as well, to admit that he would fear unprepared and tested, if one of his own children were to come out. How would he know how he would react, when this is something still new and theoretical to him? We've all dealt with the homophobic illusions we were taught, and now it is his turn - and he's a champion with a heart of gold. I absolutely expect that if Sailor had a gay family member come out, or close friend, Sailor will absolutely stand by that person in courage and love.

Originally Posted by u-dog

;

Sailaway!

You may not know how you would react if one of your grandkids came out to you... but I do. You'd love him/her and you'd become an even more stalwart defender of equal rights than you are already.

I personally am glad that all 3 of my boys are straight... cuz at this point I'm in it for the grandchildren but it always seemed like bad planning on God's part because I would have made a fantastic Dad of a gay son... anyway I'm hopin that at least one of my grandkids is gay because I will surely be ONE HELL OF A GRANDFATHER to a gay child !!

gay kids can and do grow up and bring home wonderful partners. they can and do make families and have children. They can and do have satisfying careers and can make you as proud as straight kids. the only bad part is having to watch ignorant homophobes disrespecting them.

Whatever brings you here to post... I'm glad you're here.

Me too. Always happy to see you sharing your perspective, Sailor.

[sailaway58]

Originally Posted by pnggrad79

Sailaway,
Why would you feel in conflict with me? I am a lesbian who would like to see the straight world shape up and stop being hypocritical about their own lives and quit pointing fingers at glbt's. I would like to see James Dobson shut his stupid mouth and quit spreading downright lies about us and keep his straight and very narrow opinions to himself. Doesn't he have a life?
I have no conflict with you, but if you really feel conflict being here, why are you here? I love your signature, doesn't it really say how you feel or did you just think it was clever? I guess I am just confused as to what you're really trying to say here.

I may have not made my point very clear. As I am learning about these issues and how it fits into my life I find it easy to be accepting to others in general. If this came home it might be a little tougher for me, thats all. I am trying to be open and honest about my feelings concerning the GLBT subject. I may not always be where you or someone else think I should be and that is okay, I don't mind being challenged or given a different approach to consider. Just don't confuse my honest feelings with some kind of a personal put down or judgment. I am just here to understand, to find our common ground and to shake off some of the hangups I have.
The conflict is in my heart, not with others.
As for the signature I thought it was funny and this is the only place I go that someone else might agree.

[Zerbie]

Originally Posted by Daniel

Though I see my family from time to time, I consider myself estranged from them. The reason for this, of course, is that they are- for the most part- conservative christians. They have a hard time with my being gay.

. One is met with silence.

So- in brief- while we see each other in body, I have struggled my whole life with a feeling of disconnection. Of course, they have too.

It's a matter that's never far from my mind.

Originally Posted by keltic63

let's talk about the weather. let's talk about what happened at the school board meeting. let's talk about doctor's appointments, and what kind of gas mileage we're getting, and how much the electric bill was this month. But don't dare mention how thrilled I am with my relationship, how much I love my boyfriend, or even that we had a delicious dinner at the home of another gay couple.

Neither one of us have told our parents about our Commitment Ceremony. He we are, excitedly planning for our big day, and we can't imagine how we're going to tell our parents. We "see" our parents regularly. Scott sees his mom and dad nearly every day. I see mine at least once a week. Shouldn't it be easy to announce that we're getting married? nope, we've been conditioned, much like B.F. Skinner showed with pigeons and Pavlov with his dogs, talk about anything gay, and the room goes silent. How can people in such close proximity be so far apart?

Originally Posted by Daniel

We did tell our families- one sibling of mine sent a horrible letter stating that she didn't think men should be allowed to marry one another, my parents sent a card, and from the rest of my siblings: nada. Not a word. Hubby's elderly mother was a dear- but was not able to come because of her health.

.

Originally Posted by KennethJ

T

Right now how I am feeling is that ABSOLUTELY NO ONE should ever be put in this situation. No one should have to choose between him/herself and their unaccepting family. I devote way too much energy to this conundrum which I cannot win. I could be developing myself in other ways, but instead I spend my days wondering if it is possible to have a relationship with my family and retain an ounce of love for myself. I have had absolutely no support from anyone in my family. I love them dearly, but can't bare the thought of continuing to put on the mask they think is me (the person they are able to tolerate and accept). It's just too difficult... and results in some really messed up states of mind. For a long time, this is what I did, and I developed really debilitating conditions, and at my most vulnerable time, my sisters actually told me that I caused it because of my SIN.
I just split myself in half trying to maintain a relationship with them and also be true to myself. I ultimately crashed, had a breakdown and took 3 months off work.

I'm tired of being a doormat and I reject any god that thinks I need to kill my true self in order to be whole or holy.

Originally Posted by NathanATX

Dear one...
You MUST learn to set strong boundaries with your family or anyone who might take advantage of their relationship with you in order to cause you emotional/mental/spiritual harm.

My mother is extremely fundamentalist.

She has been incredibly emotionally violent towards me because of my sexuality. She has literally been emotionally and mentally abusive.

Thats what it is, ABUSE. Call the shit what it is. And don't let them get away with it.


Peace,
Nate

Originally Posted by BenL

KennethJ,

I'm a gay man married to a transman. Charley, my spouse, began transition from female to male two and a half years ago. When he/we told our son and daughter, who are grown and out of the house, what Charley was doing, both children reacted very angrily.

We haven't spoken to our daughter since. She demanded that we stay out of her life. Last month she and her husband moved to the UK without telling us. We only found out a week or two ago from her brother.

.

This thread should be required reading for every undergraduate in public university in the country.

I'm in that "no word" place, again, and forcing fingers to keyboard because this subject is too important to drop just because it's literally so heavy I can barely lift my hands to type.

I am just - devastated! - at the combined stories from so many of you, who have become my beloved friends in our months and years foruming. To them, I could add further stories of the friend who came out at 16 only to be told to get out of the house, and the friends whose parents still urge them to attend the ex-gay ministries - or my own cousin who was officially "dead" to the family for over 3 decades because he was gay so moved 2000 miles away and created a family of choice to replace us.

We attended a wedding yesterday. As the vows concluded and the just-married couple embraced and retreated hand-in-hand down the aisle, the crowd of combined friends and family rose in joyful standing ovation. Later, I thought of the contrast between the way their vows were received and the way Daniel's family responded to his wedding. I told hubby about the way Daniel's family refused to acknowledge his marriage. DH just looked grave and shook his head, saying sadly, 'that is the essence of the problem right there.' It makes me want to cry that something so important, so joyful, so fundamental to our lives could be ignored, passed-over, treated as shameful - - when it deserves to be celebrated.

Steve and Scott - I hope you will soon overcome your inhibitions about sharing your engagement with your family. I hope they will respond gracefully. The step you are taking is absolutely sacred, and deserves to be held the utmost regard. I hope those close to you respond with the dignity and respect you deserve.

What steps can we take to overcome these problems? I think everyone deserves time and second chances. But mental health is paramount, and if someone is constantly putting you down, you need to not hear those messages.

I love each of you very much, and will hold you and your families in my prayers.

Much love,
Zerbie

[sailaway58]

Originally Posted by u-dog

;

Sailaway!

You may not know how you would react if one of your grandkids came out to you... but I do. You'd love him/her and you'd become an even more stalwart defender of equal rights than you are already.

I personally am glad that all 3 of my boys are straight... cuz at this point I'm in it for the grandchildren but it always seemed like bad planning on God's part because I would have made a fantastic Dad of a gay son... anyway I'm hopin that at least one of my grandkids is gay because I will surely be ONE HELL OF A GRANDFATHER to a gay child !!

gay kids can and do grow up and bring home wonderful partners. they can and do make families and have children. They can and do have satisfying careers and can make you as proud as straight kids. the only bad part is having to watch ignorant homophobes disrespecting them.

Whatever brings you here to post... I'm glad you're here.

Many many years ago our family had a family friend that married had a child and then discovered her husband was gay. They divorced and her x chose to stay out of their son's life. He didn't want to influence him in a negative way. At the time I thought that was very noble of him and I think he had his son's best interest at heart, but I like your approach better.
That was around 35 years ago and times have changed a little. He was a good guy, a church song leader and looking now from a few years perspective, I am sure he loved his wife. It just wasn't who he was.
I think he and his son have met and have a friendship now, but he missed out on allot.

[pnggrad79]

Sailaway,
I can appreciate your conflict. God knows I struggled against my own internal homophobia for years before I just stopped fighting. Being gay hasn't been easy for me, but I wouldn't go back to what I was for any amount of money. I am proud of what I am, and I wish for the day when it doesn't have to be hard anymore for any gay, lesbian, bisexual, or transgender person.

[tdogg]

Originally Posted by sailaway58

The reason I may be a fake is while I am coming a long way toward acceptance and understanding of GLBT's if one of my boys "came out" I can't say I wouldn't be disappointed. In fact I hope to never have to deal with it.
As I read about what some of you deal with makes it even more understandable as to why I should not be silent about the inclusion of the GLBT community in our faith.
I am uncomfortable reading about your relationships, I can only imagine the difficulty in family relationships coming to terms with reality. My oldest son once came home with a girl we all learned to hate, that was tough enough.
(She is gone)

Ok Sailaway, but the difference is, you are HERE. To get to know us and share with us, and open your mind and heart. That's the difference - you are right here with us. I'm glad you are here!

[KennethJ]

Sailaway: Can you imagine the possibility of meeting your gay family member's partner and really liking that person? Seeing that he/she really loves and cares for your loved one, and that they respect each other, and that the relationship is truly life-giving?

[scott snedeker]

Originally Posted by KennethJ

Sailaway: Can you imagine the possibility of meeting your gay family member's partner and really liking that person? Seeing that he/she really loves and cares for your loved one, and that they respect each other, and that the relationship is truly life-giving?

Wow! that sounds like a good exercise in guided imagery! Maybe practicing it will effect changes! This technique has worked for me to embrace my entitlement to live true to my nature and restore/create self esteem!

[gman620]

I am not estranged from my immediate family, but I am estranged from several members of my extended family (aunts, uncles, cousins), although that has nothing to do with my being gay, and frankly I don't miss them that much at all. Sometimes we're actually better off not being around certain people.

I've been cut off from several friends because of my sexuality, but never anyone in my immediate family. Luckily they've stood by me thick and thin.

If you're estranged from your immediate family, that's undoubtedly the hardest to deal with. I can only advise you to try to cultivate relationships with other relatives or close friends. You can't force other people to accept you, but remember that over time people can change their minds.

Continue to have a strong and solid prayer/spiritual life. Consider getting involved in a gay-friendly church and other social activities.

Sorry I can't offer more. Good luck!

[KennethJ]

I would like to bring the thread back to the original focus of conservation between people who have experienced estrangement from family. I'm really not looking for 'advice' from anyone, ESPECIALLY from people who haven't been there.

[Daniel]

Kenneth- I'm finding the matter of estrangement from biological family to be a life-long journey. And now that I am nearing the half-century mark, certain things have come into perspective.

For one thing, I've made a life for myself, one which hasn't depended on my family. At first, when I was in my 20's, I was royally pissed off that my parents didn't 'understand' me, or 'get' what I was doing. In time, I realized that they hardly understood themselves, much less me. And at that point, I started to see them as people- not my parents. I guess this helped me have a bit of compassion for them- and for myself. I started to pull on them less. Let them off the hook- so to speak.

My parents are in their late 70's now. And I cut them a hell of a lot of slack: their concerns have changed radically in the last few years.

When I was in my mid 30's, I somehow got the idea that I needed to start telling them what I wanted to hear from them: "I love you." Words not in usage at the time. I thought: "Hell! Why am I waiting for them to tell me this? I'm the one who knows what I want.....so I better go first". So I did. Scared the shit out of me. But I did it: I started telling them that I loved them when we talked on the phone. The first three or four times there was silence on the other end. And then the words were croaked back to me in a far away voice. And I thought....."Well....that's a start".

Have we progressed a great deal beyond this? Not really. A little here and there over the years, small changes over a long period of time. While I once dreamed of a grand verbal acceptance, I now know it may never be possible because mine is not a family that 'talks'. At least not in the way that I've come to regard communication- a skill I've had to learn on my own. And their faith- combined with their fears- keep them from from able to engage in conversation about these matters easily. That said, I'm open to being suprised. Does it matter to me? Yes. Do I fuss about it? From time to time. Does it rule my life like it once did? No.

I feel my sometime need for acceptance is a hunger which I have to feed by giving what I want to have. Yes....it's all backwards as far as the world is concerned, which demands that we have what we deserve- now! But I take it as one of the curious things about love. It turns things inside out.

No matter what, I will go to my grave knowing something of the meaning of three little words.

[BrianB]

Originally Posted by KennethJ

I would like to bring the thread back to the original focus of conservation between people who have experienced estrangement from family. I'm really not looking for 'advice' from anyone, ESPECIALLY from people who haven't been there.

It was the fear of estrangement that kept me from telling my parents for so long that I'm bisexual. I truly believed that they would cease talking with me if I came out of the closet. After much thought and prayer I wrote them each a letter to explain that I was involved with gay pride and that several of my friends at school were gay. Then I told them in the letter that I'm bisexual.

I fully expected that they would tell me that I was dead to them. The reality was that my mom said she loved me even though she believed homosexuality is sin. She did not want to hear about anything connected to gay activities. That limited our conversation quite a bit. My dad said he didn't have a problem with it; at the same time he didn't want to discuss it. That was my private life.

Mom asked me not to tell anyone else in the family because she knew that some family members would cease contact if they knew. So far, the issue has not come up with other family members. They live in other states so it's not as important that they know. If they ask me point blank, I will tell them.

[paul]

Originally Posted by sailaway58

Many many years ago our family had a family friend that married had a child and then discovered her husband was gay. They divorced and her x chose to stay out of their son's life. He didn't want to influence him in a negative way. At the time I thought that was very noble of him and I think he had his son's best interest at heart, but I like your approach better.
That was around 35 years ago and times have changed a little. He was a good guy, a church song leader and looking now from a few years perspective, I am sure he loved his wife. It just wasn't who he was.
I think he and his son have met and have a friendship now, but he missed out on allot.

Sailaway,

I knew I was gay when I married (long before actually), but could not own the label because of my very conservative fundamental Christian beliefs. Instead I owned the labels of bent, twisted, sick, deviant, etc., for about 35 years. I disowned all of those labels only a year and a half ago. So, the reality is that I have been estranged from my self most all of my life. Me and my wife raised two sons, now 26 and 28. We were a very tight family, we homeschooled k-12 and both of my sons got full university scholarships based on their sat scores. One's a nuclear engineer, the other a teacher/writer/musician, so they are intelligent, even worldly. We used to talk for hours a week, they were always on the phone to me, never a separation. That all came to a screeching halt in December of 06 when I came out to them, now they want nothing to do with me. Now, lest you get the wrong idea, they have cause to be angry. I cheated on their mom and lied to cover it for a long time. Many can put a period on the end of that sentence and say: "okay, well Paul deserved what he got." And ulitmately, that is true. However, while I am without excuse, I am not without reason or understanding. I won't go into a detailed explanation here, but when you repress yourself, it comes out in weird ways. I fought myself tooth and nail for 35 years, and failed. To give up the fight, in my mind, was to turn my back on "God," and I wanted to be "faithful." I never said "bad" things about gays to my kids or anyone else. But since I owned all those bad labels, I didn't have to. When my kids would crack a joke about gays, I would 'correct' them telling them that gays didn't choose to be that way and that they were in a hard position. That's the only defense I had for gays since I bought into the labels I had been raised with, and it was inadequate. If someone, such as yourself, had had the guts to advocate acceptance of glbt people (i.e., me), in any of the churches I attended, my story might be different. They had the opportunity. I "confessed" my ssa to my church (yep, the whole group including my future wife) at age 19.

You say you want to understand, and I for one am grateful for your presence here. Gay people probably need straight friends as much, if not more, than they need gay friends. I have spent my life in fundamental Christian circles. Not once in all those years did I ever meet a "Christian" who had an affirming thing to say of gays. That could have been a rescue for me and my family. No, quite the opposite. They reinforced the aforementioned labels and added some of their own. At best, that part of who I am was a joke among my "brothers and sisters in Christ." My sons made similar jokes growing up. So I hid until the day that God would change or deliver me from being gay. I think that the worst estrangement a person can experience is estrangement from themselves.

[pnggrad79]

Originally Posted by paul

Sailaway,

I knew I was gay when I married (long before actually), but could not own the label because of my very conservative fundamental Christian beliefs. Instead I owned the labels of bent, twisted, sick, deviant, etc., for about 35 years. I disowned all of those labels only a year and a half ago. So, the reality is that I have been estranged from my self most all of my life. Me and my wife raised two sons, now 26 and 28. We were a very tight family, we homeschooled k-12 and both of my sons got full university scholarships based on their sat scores. One's a nuclear engineer, the other a teacher/writer/musician, so they are intelligent, even worldly. We used to talk for hours a week, they were always on the phone to me, never a separation. That all came to a screeching halt in December of 06 when I came out to them, now they want nothing to do with me. Now, lest you get the wrong idea, they have cause to be angry. I cheated on their mom and lied to cover it for a long time. Many can put a period on the end of that sentence and say: "okay, well Paul deserved what he got." And ulitmately, that is true. However, while I am without excuse, I am not without reason or understanding. I won't go into a detailed explanation here, but when you repress yourself, it comes out in weird ways. I fought myself tooth and nail for 35 years, and failed. To give up the fight, in my mind, was to turn my back on "God," and I wanted to be "faithful." I never said "bad" things about gays to my kids or anyone else. But since I owned all those bad labels, I didn't have to. When my kids would crack a joke about gays, I would 'correct' them telling them that gays didn't choose to be that way and that they were in a hard position. That's the only defense I had for gays since I bought into the labels I had been raised with, and it was inadequate. If someone, such as yourself, had had the guts to advocate acceptance of glbt people (i.e., me), in any of the churches I attended, my story might be different. They had the opportunity. I "confessed" my ssa to my church (yep, the whole group including my future wife) at age 19.

You say you want to understand, and I for one am grateful for your presence here. Gay people probably need straight friends as much, if not more, than they need gay friends. I have spent my life in fundamental Christian circles. Not once in all those years did I ever meet a "Christian" who had an affirming thing to say of gays. That could have been a rescue for me and my family. No, quite the opposite. They reinforced the aforementioned labels and added some of their own. At best, that part of who I am was a joke among my "brothers and sisters in Christ." My sons made similar jokes growing up. So I hid until the day that God would change or deliver me from being gay. I think that the worst estrangement a person can experience is estrangement from themselves.

Paul,
Please don't feel like you had anything coming to you, like your kids being angry at you. You simply fell into the trap of the fundamentalist lie that you are bad and unredeemable, and you felt like you had to sneak around because society and the church has so brazenly shamed us into back room behavior where we had to live out who we were in the shadows. I don't feel like you did anything wrong. I feel like what happened to you by those forcing their beliefs on you was wrong. What you did was a result of it.
I hope that your kids come around. Mine did. I hope you don't still struggle with this. It is a hard road, I know, but there is a lively, wonderful community out there to support you.

[RedneckDyke]

Hi everybody.

I don't know what my relationship with my family is. Most of them don't talk about it at all. My parents and my partner's dad did go to the union ceremony. Her dad helped out, driving a truck of chairs and stuff. My folks were a bit more passive-agressive about it. They put off getting dressed untill 15 miuntes into it. So we were late to our own wedding.

I think my mom secretly likes me being gay. she likes being a martyr at times. She told her pastor what a trial it is having a gay daughter who wants to get married, and a straight son who doesn't. ( brother is not legally married but has been with the same wonderful woman for 6 years and has 2 kids with her.)

I have been with my partner for 9 years but my folks seem to think it's a phase I'll grow out of. Everytime I talk to them on the phone they tell me "We just want you to be happy. "
Drives me nuts.

[pnggrad79]

Originally Posted by RedneckDyke

Hi everybody.

I don't know what my relationship with my family is. Most of them don't talk about it at all. My parents and my partner's dad did go to the union ceremony. Her dad helped out, driving a truck of chairs and stuff. My folks were a bit more passive-agressive about it. They put off getting dressed untill 15 miuntes into it. So we were late to our own wedding.

I think my mom secretly likes me being gay. she likes being a martyr at times. She told her pastor what a trial it is having a gay daughter who wants to get married, and a straight son who doesn't. ( brother is not legally married but has been with the same wonderful woman for 6 years and has 2 kids with her.)

I have been with my partner for 9 years but my folks seem to think it's a phase I'll grow out of. Everytime I talk to them on the phone they tell me "We just want you to be happy. "
Drives me nuts.

Hey Red,
My parents couldn't give a rat's ass about my happiness. They said, "Being a Christian may not always make you happy. It isn't about your happiness, it is about obedience to the law." I am glad your parents at least participated in your ceremony. Mine would heartily protest and probably have Fred Phelps out in front with his signs.
9 years together! Wow! Congratulations! Keep showing them your love is real! I hope you never outgrow it.

[paul]

Originally Posted by pnggrad79

Paul,
Please don't feel like you had anything coming to you, like your kids being angry at you. You simply fell into the trap of the fundamentalist lie that you are bad and unredeemable, and you felt like you had to sneak around because society and the church has so brazenly shamed us into back room behavior where we had to live out who we were in the shadows. I don't feel like you did anything wrong. I feel like what happened to you by those forcing their beliefs on you was wrong. What you did was a result of it.
I hope that your kids come around. Mine did. I hope you don't still struggle with this. It is a hard road, I know, but there is a lively, wonderful community out there to support you.

pnggrad,

Thank you for your kind words, your being very sweet. I'm not trying to be self depricating, just ruthlessly honest. If we don't deal with the truth, what else do we have beyond delusion? I do understand the fundamentalist trap you speak of and find it astounding that it took me so long to extricate myself from it. One thing I did buy for myself, on time (whew, that was expensive), was the knowledge that I sincerely wanted to change. I believed at the time that's what "God" wanted as part of that "redemption." If there is a God out there who knows all and sees all, then I know that God has record of the almost constant 35 years of daily prayers, tears, and begging. For what? Not even deliverance, just the ability to not act on my ssa. That was probably the most devasting part, believing in a God who was watching me go through this but didn't intervene. The jokes on me, the God I was begging with probably doesn't exist. Not that there is no God (I don't know), just not the one I believed in. The rotten thing about the struggle being mostly secret is that my family doesn't have a clue. My sons both accuse me of not "having any balls" because I am not fighting this, they tell me to "man up." But honestly, I "did do something wrong." I broke my vows to my wife repeatedly and then lied to cover it up. There is no pretty way to put that and it is just simply true. I do understand why I did it and I have been able to forgive myself. My wife and kids still operate under the old label system so they cannot understand the why while maintaining their fundamental beliefs, so the estrangement continues. My wife does forgive me, and it's better than nothing, I suppose. But, it's without understanding, and there's certainly no acceptance of my ssa. That's the most challenging estrangement. Being married to, living with and trying to love someone who thinks you are broken.

[u-dog]

Originally Posted by paul

My sons both accuse me of not "having any balls" because I am not fighting this, they tell me to "man up."

Well, you didn't believe it when YOU were 28 and it was happening TO YOU. You can sort of understand why THEY don't know what the hell they're talking about. All they have to go on is an ideology. You had ideology AND personal experience and had to wait years to figure out which one was true. Someday they will want to know and understand you and will be ready to abandon the ideology that seperates them from you. Ideology is such a barren and unsatisfying substitute for love.

But honestly, I "did do something wrong." I broke my vows to my wife repeatedly and then lied to cover it up. There is no pretty way to put that and it is just simply true. I do understand why I did it and I have been able to forgive myself.

Like I told you in private, Paul.. Its the whole Jesus thing: "You suck... go and suck no more"

[paul]

Originally Posted by u-dog

Well, you didn't believe it when YOU were 28 and it was happening TO YOU. You can sort of understand why THEY don't know what the hell they're talking about. All they have to go on is an ideology. You had ideology AND personal experience and had to wait years to figure out which one was true. Someday they will want to know and understand you and will be ready to abandon the ideology that seperates them from you. Ideology is such a barren and unsatisfying substitute for love.




Like I told you in private, Paul.. Its the whole Jesus thing: "You suck... go and suck no more"

u-dog,

yep, I understand, I think I've even made the same point elswhere in their defense. Re the second paragraph and accompanying directive. I haven't for a whole year now.

[u-dog]

Originally Posted by paul

u-dog,

yep, I understand, I think I've even made the same point elswhere in their defense. Re the second paragraph and accompanying directive. I haven't for a whole year now.

That is NOT what I meant ()