Faith and Controversy

[Gennee]

Through the centuries the church has faced challenges. The early Christian church struggle with much paganism as the apostles instructed the new converts in God's word. Old habits had to be replaced with new ones. When speaking in tongues was introduced by God there was much controversy. Was it from God or just emotional jibberish?

As societies change the church has to change along with it. God moves in mysterious ways and it may involve changes in our lives. Someone told me one time that what worked in one period of time may not be effective now. The challenges the Christian church faced, in my mind, has made it stronger. Once the church supported slavery but later it was shown that this was wrong. Now, the LGBT community is challenging some misconceived notions about gender and sexuality.

I believe that church should be the one place where spirit weary LGBT men and women can find sipirtual nourishment. Sadly, in many churches, we are met with derision, bigotry, and angry remarks from "Christians". There are millions of LGBT men and women who love God, serve in the ministries and are a vitality of their community.

This presents another challenge to the Christian church. God is interested in people, not in buildings, methods, programs, or ideologies. Some of the staunchest supporters of bigotry against LGBT's is nothing more than wanting to stay in control. As a transgender woman, I am great concerned about the spiritual lives of other transgenders. SOme have been hurt so much by so called "Christians" that they will have nothing to do with God, the bible, or Christianity. From some of the stories I have heard I can't really blame them for the way they feel.

In summary, we who are lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, or other gender expressions have a right to be treated as people and worshippers. Jesus shed his blood for everybody. He is an all inclusive God who wants to add more people to his family. Many who followed Jesus were from all stripes of life. They were military leaders, tax collectors, thieves, rich, poor, fishermen and beggars. I will add LGBT also. I have faith to believe that many people who loved Jesus were gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgender, and gender variant. My desire is to see all people welcome into our churches. I desire to see many be saved by Jesus precious blood. He died for all in order that we might live.

Gennee

[andrewlittle]

Gennee, there was nothing you said with which I disagree. So I'll just add my support to your sentiments and wait to see if a dialogue develops.

Andy

[pnggrad79]

Gennee,
Beautiful! Amen!

[Tinkerbell047]

Gennee, if everyone thought like you I don't think I would be between te spiritual rock and hard place I find myself in right now. I agree with you totally. That was beautifully put.

-Tink

[paul]

Originally Posted by Gennee

In summary, we who are lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, or other gender expressions have a right to be treated as people and worshippers. Jesus shed his blood for everybody. He is an all inclusive God who wants to add more people to his family. Many who followed Jesus were from all stripes of life. They were military leaders, tax collectors, thieves, rich, poor, fishermen and beggars. I will add LGBT also. I have faith to believe that many people who loved Jesus were gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgender, and gender variant. My desire is to see all people welcome into our churches. I desire to see many be saved by Jesus precious blood. He died for all in order that we might live.

Gennee

I agree except for the "theives" part. There are all to many Christians who are happy to include lgbt people as long as they will identify as 'theives' (i.e., gay is willfull sin) who need to repent. Who among us would say it's okay to be a thief and keep stealing? The problem we encounter is the "love the sinner, hate the sin" syndrome. I'm not interested in being a second class citizen in that particular community. BTW, I am assuming your inclusion of the word "thieves" was inadvertant?

[u-dog]

Originally Posted by paul

I agree except for the "theives" part. There are all to many Christians who are happy to include lgbt people as long as they will identify as 'theives' (i.e., gay is willfull sin) who need to repent. Who among us would say it's okay to be a thief and keep stealing? The problem we encounter is the "love the sinner, hate the sin" syndrome. I'm not interested in being a second class citizen in that particular community. BTW, I am assuming your inclusion of the word "thieves" was inadvertant?

If you include "tax collectors" your are by definition including "thieves" Stealing was how tax collectors made a living.

[paul]

Originally Posted by u-dog

If you include "tax collectors" your are by definition including "thieves" Stealing was how tax collectors made a living.

Yeah, and some might argue it's no different today.

[BrentRichards]

Originally Posted by u-dog

If you include "tax collectors" your are by definition including "thieves" Stealing was how tax collectors made a living.

My thought was more along the Jean Valjean lines ... in many times in history, stealing was hardly a choice, it was a necessity for survival ... hence, using the term "thief" might be taken as equivalent for using the word "poor."

[Steven E. Webster]

Originally Posted by paul

I agree except for the "theives" part. There are all to many Christians who are happy to include lgbt people as long as they will identify as 'theives' (i.e., gay is willfull sin) who need to repent. Who among us would say it's okay to be a thief and keep stealing? The problem we encounter is the "love the sinner, hate the sin" syndrome. I'm not interested in being a second class citizen in that particular community. BTW, I am assuming your inclusion of the word "thieves" was inadvertant?

Originally Posted by BrentRichards

My thought was more along the Jean Valjean lines ... in many times in history, stealing was hardly a choice, it was a necessity for survival ... hence, using the term "thief" might be taken as equivalent for using the word "poor."

These are both good thoughts. In the list of people Jesus associated with (rather gladly, it seems) were also prostitutes. Like "thieves," prostitutes in many historical contexts were persons just trying to survive plying the only "trade" that was available to them. The self-righteous now-a-days imagine that Jesus was always saying "go and sin no more" to everyone he met, but I think he was far too kind and gracious to the poor and dispised to be heaping more crap on them. His harshest words are for the oh-so-proper Pharisees.

Sometimes, it appears, in New Testament times, the Pharisees called "sinners" anyone who wasn't part of their "in-group." Gentiles, for instance, were all "sinners" no matter how righteous they were. When the Parisees accused Jesus of "eating with sinners," they didn't like the type of people he was associating with. Jesus said at one point that the prostitutes were getting into "the Kingdom of God" before the Pharisees were.

I'm a United Methodist--my church is supposed to be "main line" and some even think "liberal." We do have a lot of congregations that are LGBT friendly, however there are Fundamentalists among us who bar LGBT people from membership in the church unless they "repent" of being who they are. "Repentence" for someone like me, who is happily married to another man, would mean ending our marriage. Not likely, I'll tell you.

Steven Webster

[Gennee]

Originally Posted by paul

I agree except for the "theives" part. There are all to many Christians who are happy to include lgbt people as long as they will identify as 'theives' (i.e., gay is willfull sin) who need to repent. Who among us would say it's okay to be a thief and keep stealing? The problem we encounter is the "love the sinner, hate the sin" syndrome. I'm not interested in being a second class citizen in that particular community. BTW, I am assuming your inclusion of the word "thieves" was inadvertant?

People who stole to make their living stole no more because Jesus had change them on the inside. His spirit entered in them and they were new people.

Gennee

[Gennee]

Originally Posted by u-dog

If you include "tax collectors" your are by definition including "thieves" Stealing was how tax collectors made a living.

Matthew was a tax collector until Jesus called him. He never went back to being a tax collector.

Gennee

[Gennee]

Originally Posted by Steven E. Webster

These are both good thoughts. In the list of people Jesus associated with (rather gladly, it seems) were also prostitutes. Like "thieves," prostitutes in many historical contexts were persons just trying to survive plying the only "trade" that was available to them. The self-righteous now-a-days imagine that Jesus was always saying "go and sin no more" to everyone he met, but I think he was far too kind and gracious to the poor and dispised to be heaping more crap on them. His harshest words are for the oh-so-proper Pharisees.

Sometimes, it appears, in New Testament times, the Pharisees called "sinners" anyone who wasn't part of their "in-group." Gentiles, for instance, were all "sinners" no matter how righteous they were. When the Parisees accused Jesus of "eating with sinners," they didn't like the type of people he was associating with. Jesus said at one point that the prostitutes were getting into "the Kingdom of God" before the Pharisees were.

I'm a United Methodist--my church is supposed to be "main line" and some even think "liberal." We do have a lot of congregations that are LGBT friendly, however there are Fundamentalists among us who bar LGBT people from membership in the church unless they "repent" of being who they are. "Repentence" for someone like me, who is happily married to another man, would mean ending our marriage. Not likely, I'll tell you.

Steven Webster

You make some good points, Steven. During that time, gentiles were anyone who wasn't Jewish. It did not matter where they were from. People who responded to Jesus were those who knew what they really were. They were honest with themselves. The Pharisees cloaked themselves with an air of being spiritual, but their lives proved that it was not the case.

One thing is evident is that Jesus is not partial. He is inclusive.

Gennee

[skylark]

Regarding your original thoughts about acceptance by Christians as long as you realise you're wrong. I don't rcall Jesus censuring people for their sexual orientation (though this could be because it wasn't an issue then) but from my understanding of Christianity Jesus taught 'Love thy neighbour.
No mention of ..if they have the same ideas as you......if they have a colour of skin like you..... if you like them.
Like most of Jesus's teaching it's unconditional love. Thats what Christianity is about.

Cheers Skylark

[Gennee]

Your right, Skylark. It was one main reason why the religious leaders hated him. Jesus said that the two greatest commandments was 'Love god with all your heart' and 'love thy neighbor as thyself'. The pastor of my church preached this this past Sunday.

Gennee