Bisexuality and the Conservative Agenda

[glbt_equality]

Zerbie - you have once again proven to be an invaluable resouce for me, helping, as I form new approaches & ideas, to bounce ideas back & help me in clarifying a position. I would be interested in your take on a rewrite, which I have posted in the tridd (East Texas) forums here:
http://tridd.freeforums.org/viewtopic.php?t=101
(scroll down to "Volume 2").

I am happy also to learn more about many issues faced by bisexuals that I hadn't really considered before, and now more clearly understand how my remarks were initially taken as insensitive. I assure you, however, that my intent was pure.

The phenomenon, interestingly highlighted by the current Senator Craig debacle, is amazing to me in almost every respect... The fact that you can be arrested in an airport for sliding your foot to near the adjacent stall reeks of a "witch hunt." And his repeated insistence that "I am not gay," only serves to make it's antithesis (I AM gay) some kind of enormous indictment. Sen Craig displays all of the dynamics of the conservative bisexual antigay activist I had originally proposed, from being a vocal spokesman against gay rights right down to the apparent embattlement against his own demons (see the Idaho Statesmen article at:
http://www.idahostatesman.com/1264/story/144047.html

I'm just wondering if our understanding of vehement opposition as being an expression of angst among conservative bisexuals might help form an approach in dealing with them. How would we approach the "Focus on the Family" group, for example, armed with the foreknowledge that their extreme bigotry had, at its roots, a basis in their leaders' and members' own sexual orientation?

[paul]

Originally Posted by Zerbie

Wow, this thread just gets curioser and curiouser!!!

Speaking for me, I do not need to have ongoing relationships with partners of both sexes. I did though need to explore dating relationships with both sexes in my young single days in order to know exactly where I stood, orientationally, and how I function in relationship. Once I knew, the only matter was finding out who my partner would be, and then settling down.

Anyway, I had a VERY hard time coming out as bisexual. From my pov it would have been easier to come out as lesbian. Oh, wait, I DID that. Did that first, then came out to myself, and a year later was finally able to accept that the term "bisexual" appeared to fit. I spent about a decade rejecting the BI label, because I had real problems with it.

Curioser indeed, Zerbie. Now that I've said what I said, I guess I need to clarify some stuff. This is all in the interest of honesty and seeing clearly, the eternal process it seems.

There was a point when I actually called myself (to myself) bisexual. I'll take a coin from the ex-gay bank to try and splain. "Gender confusion." I think that's a real phenomenom, but the ex-gay movement has turned it topsy-turvy. That is to say, by taking a real orientation ("gay") and trying to straighten it out, they've caused a great deal of confusion. I know this first hand, as you know, because up until a year and a half ago I believed they were right. So, it's pretty logical that, at this early juncture, I'm still figuring some things out. I'm just being very honest. I have spent my entire life married to a woman, after all, so I have to be a little suspicious that I might just be a closeted bisexual . Still, I do currently identify as "gay" because it seems a pretty safe bet. My wife is the only woman I have ever been with, heck, she's the only woman I ever kissed. My biggest clue, insight, comes from my dream life. When I have 'those' kind of dreams (from the time I started having them as a kid), it's never been with a woman, always a guy. I consider dreams to be where the veil is removed and we can discover what's really there. So, I'm probably not bi, just a mal-adjusted gay.

People who are ssa don't just have the ramifications of the closet to deal with. We do all venture forth from the closet. One of the articles of clothing that many of us keep/kept in our closets, for going out in, was/is a straight jacket (i need to copyright that one ).

[mjules]

Originally Posted by Zerbie

a lot of guys will view a female with a lesbian relationship history as sexy territory, but the converse is not so applicable for how straight women view men.

Which is just CRAZY, 'cause I've got this thing about boys together. I think it's cute. It's a huge joke at work... there are a couple of guys who are bi there, and one who is out as gay (another whom we all suspect of being gay but who won't admit it... he's also in a very against-homosexuality church, so, we blame that...) and anytime the boys start talking about a boy they think is cute, etc., I'm always encouraging them to "go for it! ...but can I at least watch when you cuddle?"

[Zerbie]

Originally Posted by mjules

Which is just CRAZY, 'cause I've got this thing about boys together. I think it's cute. It's a huge joke at work... there are a couple of guys who are bi there, and one who is out as gay (another whom we all suspect of being gay but who won't admit it... he's also in a very against-homosexuality church, so, we blame that...) and anytime the boys start talking about a boy they think is cute, etc., I'm always encouraging them to "go for it! ...but can I at least watch when you cuddle?"

OMG me too!!!!!!!

I think man on man action is really hot sexy stuff! I think you're the first other girl I've met who thinks so too. So many girls make that "ew" face at the idea of guy on guy, and I DON'T GET IT!! If one is hot, two is hotter, right? Eh. Not to them. Call me weird, again, but some of those movies with boy kissing boy scenes, - ROWR!

Oh but, I wouldn't actually ask my friends to let me watch!!!!!!!!!

[BrentRichards]

Originally Posted by Zerbie

I think man on man action is really hot sexy stuff! If one is hot, two is hotter, right? ... some of those movies with boy kissing boy scenes, - ROWR!

Hey, me too! Oh, wait, that doesn't count, does it?

[mjules]

Originally Posted by Zerbie

OMG me too!!!!!!!

I think man on man action is really hot sexy stuff! I think you're the first other girl I've met who thinks so too. So many girls make that "ew" face at the idea of guy on guy, and I DON'T GET IT!! If one is hot, two is hotter, right? Eh. Not to them. Call me weird, again, but some of those movies with boy kissing boy scenes, - ROWR!

Oh but, I wouldn't actually ask my friends to let me watch!!!!!!!!!

HEE! Oh man, I wouldn't actually WATCH my friends... it's just a joke about my tastes!

And there's actually a huge pocket of girls who think boy on boy is hot. (Amusingly enough, a large number of them turn out to be lesbians or bisexual themselves. ) You told me you'd never heard of manga (Japanese comics) before, right? There's this entire subsection of manga called "yaoi" that is all about boy on boy. It can go from very tame (a little kissing) to very XXX-rated, and is a huge phenomenon over in Japan and gaining popularity by leaps and bounds in the US, and most of its fans are girls. Careful if you decide to go exploring, though - while some of it is very good, with delicious story-telling, some of it is... just... NOT.

(You'd be better off asking someone more experienced for some recommendations. Not that I know anyone like that. )

Also, I dunno if you saw the thread in the General Discussion forum about movies? There's this gorgeous German one called Summer Storm that's just amazing, if a little bit sad. (But kind of explicit in places! )

Hee. It's fun to find friends with similar interests...

Oh and Brent? ...You might count. In an honorary sense. Maybe.

[BrentRichards]

Originally Posted by mjules

Also, I dunno if you saw the thread in the General Discussion forum about movies? There's this gorgeous German one called Summer Storm that's just amazing, if a little bit sad. (But kind of explicit in places! )

Isn't that a GREAT film? I can't tell you how many times I've seen it. Yes, there are some racy scenes, but its so tremendously tender at times, too. Often makes me cry, especially since I know the feeling of falling for a straight best friend and being crushed that they couldn't be physically affectionate (and more) the way I longed for... destroyed more than one best friendship like that in my younger days (and yet, somehow, I could still believe I wasn't REALLY gay ... go figure.

Oh and Brent? ...You might count. In an honorary sense. Maybe.

Yeah, probably not. A wonderful straight ally woman I know once asked me (hopefully, I think) ... so, you're not bi, are you? The honest answer is: not even a little bit. I'm a Kinsey 6 ... make that a 7! And I'm also definitely not a girl ... I'm not even one of those gay guys who had all female friends and understands women so well, and ... My friends have usually been almost exclusively male, and I'm every bit as bad as the average neanderthal when it comes to "understanding" women. Huh?

[tymejumper]

Originally Posted by BrianB

Zerbie, you said it very eloquently. Bisexual people can not turn off their attraction for both sexes. The choice come in when we choose to be faithful to our partner. If my partner happens to be the opposite sex that is not hiding. If my partner happens to be a man that doesn't mean I'll quit appreciating an attractive woman.

Troy, it also frustrates me that there are bisexual people that will not stand up and be counted. They have their nice little marriage with their nice job in the nice part of town. However, speaking in generalities about any group of people is dangerous. Many bisexual people are also activists like you.

When I first came out I identified as bisexual, as I have dated both men and women. I found that I prefer women and now identify as lesbian. I actually had to go to therapy to figure out who to identify! how sad is that? I have always identified myself as gay.

The looks a person gets in the gay communtiy when they say they are "bi" is amazing. People think you are cheap, slutty and cant be faithful. They think you are confused and want to savor gay relationships and have hetero privelidge. Actually, it is VERY difficult to be bi as you have 2 closets to come out from, no one accepts you and everyone hates you! Bis have a hard time standing up for gay rights as they are often shunned in the gay community. Did you know some lesbians will not date a bi girl cause they dont trust them to not throw them over for a man? Its actually sad.

Zerbie, I am so glad you are a vocal part of the community and identify as proud and bi. People do not seem to understand that it is not a choice to be atracted to both sexes, it happens. You fall in love with someone and whatever sex they are does not matter. How much more complete could a human be? To be able to look into both sexes for your soulmate is awesome.

We need to understand that sexuality is fluid and we are all along a continum of straight to gay. Some of us are only completely attracted to opposite sex, some only attracted to same sex and the rest fall in between. That scientifically is aproximately 80% of the populace with 10% gay the other 10% straight.

[tymejumper]

Originally Posted by sailaway58

Speaking completely from the outside and with no personal experience, Bisexuality muddies the water a bit when trying to understand the whole Gay thing.
I have always said bisexual's are just people that can't make a commitment.
Don't get mad at me that's just the heterosexual lack of understanding coming out of me.
I tend to agree with Troy but it doesn't effect me the same as some of you which only furthers proof I have know idea what the hell I am talking about.

No, bisexuals just don't have the tendancy to limit themselves to one sex or the other to find their soulmates. They dont need to have a relashionship with both sexes at once either to be considered bisexual. I actually think that idea was a hetero mans fantasy and it sounded good to sterotype people with so it spread!

[rainbow7]

Originally Posted by paul

. For a bisexual to choose is like saying: "which to you want to keep, your right arm or your left arm."

As Zerbie is trying to explain, it isn't like you have this wonderful choice and you can go either way, rather, you feel a loss if you don't have both. Just like you would have a real void if you were forced to be with a woman, a bisexual person has a very real void if they don't have both.
I think it is harder to be bisexual than it is to be gay in some respects.

Paul,

I'm not sure I understand you. I think this is true for some, but not ALL who identify as bisexual. I agree with Zerbie: can't choose attraction, but we can choose what we act on. Research seems to suggest that a very small minority of the population is right in the middle of the Kinsey scale. For some bisexual people, monogamy works, because one falls in love with and commits to a specific partner, rather than to a gender. The attraction to both sexes is always there, but not everyone has to have partners of both sexes.....though certainly some do seem to.

Polly

[tymejumper]

Originally Posted by Zerbie

OMG me too!!!!!!!

I think man on man action is really hot sexy stuff! I think you're the first other girl I've met who thinks so too. So many girls make that "ew" face at the idea of guy on guy, and I DON'T GET IT!! If one is hot, two is hotter, right? Eh. Not to them. Call me weird, again, but some of those movies with boy kissing boy scenes, - ROWR!

Oh but, I wouldn't actually ask my friends to let me watch!!!!!!!!!

I so got into Queer as Folk when Brian and Justin got it on. It was SO hot I could'nt believe it. I still prefer sex with a woman, but I do so love to look at men! LOL LOL

[u-dog]

Originally Posted by Zerbie

Then you do not understand, Dave. It ISN'T a choice. We don't choose attraction!! Only whether or not we act upon it.

Sorry I missed this post Zerbie! no I didn't mean that bi-sexual people can choose who they are attracted to but rather that since they are attracted to both genders they could choose who they had relationships with. So homophobic bisexuals who imagine that their experience is universal also imagine that gay people and straight people have a choice about their partners also.

[Zerbie]

Originally Posted by tymejumper

When I first came out I identified as bisexual, as I have dated both men and women. I found that I prefer women and now identify as lesbian. I actually had to go to therapy to figure out who to identify! how sad is that? I have always identified myself as gay.

The looks a person gets in the gay communtiy when they say they are "bi" is amazing. People think you are cheap, slutty and cant be faithful. They think you are confused and want to savor gay relationships and have hetero privelidge. Actually, it is VERY difficult to be bi as you have 2 closets to come out from, no one accepts you and everyone hates you! Bis have a hard time standing up for gay rights as they are often shunned in the gay community. Did you know some lesbians will not date a bi girl cause they dont trust them to not throw them over for a man? Its actually sad.

Zerbie, I am so glad you are a vocal part of the community and identify as proud and bi. People do not seem to understand that it is not a choice to be atracted to both sexes, it happens. You fall in love with someone and whatever sex they are does not matter. How much more complete could a human be? To be able to look into both sexes for your soulmate is awesome.

We need to understand that sexuality is fluid and we are all along a continum of straight to gay. Some of us are only completely attracted to opposite sex, some only attracted to same sex and the rest fall in between. That scientifically is aproximately 80% of the populace with 10% gay the other 10% straight.

Nice. Thank you Tyme, this helps a great deal.

I've been feeling frustrated with parts of this thread where that godawful word "choice" keeps coming back, again and again. I feel like, "Hey I just TOLD you, aren't you listening?" The choice is not over orientation, it's over whether or not to FOLLOW when the orientation leads you down the socially prohibited path. Same choice a gay person has, although with the merciful difference that a bisexual CAN still find an opposite sex partner and be responsive. THAT is the critical difference, and that's where this entire conversation pivots.

Troy - the re-write is much better. Thank you. It makes a real difference that you don't let readers think you are universalizing about bisexuals. You are very dear to me: thank you for your re-write and your kind remarks.

Ya know. I love BEING bisexual but I hate TELLING people I'm bisexual. As I said (two years ago?) to Awediot, it's MUCH easier telling straight folk I'm bisexual than it is telling gay folk. I'm scared to death of being rejected by my gay friends and colleagues, so I'm much more likely to stay closeted around them. Can't tell you how many times I've let them label me as straight without clarifying, because I'm afraid they'll change their minds about me if I tell them this tidbit. I've even backed away from using gender pronouns when mentioning ex-girlfriends.

As for activism, I've dropped out twice in past years, before because of either something that was directly said about bisexuals being "traitors," or because of a fear that someone would say so. It was like, I have all this passion and energy for the cause, but gay people don't want me, so why am I killing myself for a bunch of people who don't want me around?

I thought I dropped out of activism for good when I got married. The sense that little straight-acting heterosexual privileged me didn't belong anywhere in the gay community was really strong - in my head. Little did I know I would immerse more DEEPLY after that! It was when those marriage amendments swept the elections in 2004 that I thought, Oh my god, that's MY community they're doing this to, I don't give a rat's tail if they want me or not, I'm doing something!!!! I not only signed myself up for LGBT organizational memberships, I signed my husband up as my partner. Even so, I was terrified the first time I went to a gay rights community forum after I got married. I was like: Do I still belong here??

[rainbow7]

Originally Posted by Zerbie

I not only signed myself up for LGBT organizational memberships, I signed my husband up as my partner. Even so, I was terrified the first time I went to a gay rights community forum after I got married. I was like: Do I still belong here??

Zerbie, you SO belong here! If you don't, NO ONE does....your faithfulness and energy are truly appreciated, and I'm glad you didn't drop out permanently!

Polly

[mjules]

Originally Posted by BrentRichards

Isn't that a GREAT film? I can't tell you how many times I've seen it. Yes, there are some racy scenes, but its so tremendously tender at times, too. Often makes me cry, especially since I know the feeling of falling for a straight best friend and being crushed that they couldn't be physically affectionate (and more) the way I longed for... destroyed more than one best friendship like that in my younger days (and yet, somehow, I could still believe I wasn't REALLY gay ... go figure.

You know, even the racier scenes don't really bother me. (But then, I tend to be very open towards such things.) I mean, it isn't demeaning and pornographic (in the sense that pornos are usually all about the fake physicality and little about the emotional or relationship side), it's actually very beautiful and sensual. (And, okay, yes. Hot.)

And I felt the same pain... my first love was my mostly-straight best friend. At the time, had we had any concept of what homosexuality even *was* (trust me, when I say I grew up sheltered, I mean it) we might have been each others' first lovers. We used to lie in bed, tangled up in each other, and lament that one of us wasn't a boy. But it never even occurred to us to kiss. Now, years later, I identify as bisexual and she identifies as very, very straight. It still makes me a little sad.

Yeah, probably not. A wonderful straight ally woman I know once asked me (hopefully, I think) ... so, you're not bi, are you? The honest answer is: not even a little bit. I'm a Kinsey 6 ... make that a 7! And I'm also definitely not a girl ... I'm not even one of those gay guys who had all female friends and understands women so well, and ... My friends have usually been almost exclusively male, and I'm every bit as bad as the average neanderthal when it comes to "understanding" women. Huh?

Hahaha! That's great. I am definitely smack dab in the middle of the Kinsey scale, which has been a source of frustration for one reason or another for years... mostly because when I was struggling with the "morality" of homosexuality, it bothered me that I wasn't only attracted to guys, and then once I got over that, I dealt with the same issues Zerbie has been talking about, of being afraid to come out as bi to the GLBT community for fear of being rejected, but also not able to lie about the fact that I'm not lesbian, as I'm not *solely* (or even mostly) attracted to women. It's split right down the middle.

[Zerbie]

Originally Posted by rainbow7

Paul,

I'm not sure I understand you. I think this is true for some, but not ALL who identify as bisexual. I agree with Zerbie: can't choose attraction, but we can choose what we act on. Research seems to suggest that a very small minority of the population is right in the middle of the Kinsey scale. For some bisexual people, monogamy works, because one falls in love with and commits to a specific partner, rather than to a gender. The attraction to both sexes is always there, but not everyone has to have partners of both sexes.....though certainly some do seem to.

Polly

The above represents what I've observed of human sexuality as well. The continuum is the fairest description, as it comes closer to what can happen in real life than two, or even three, distinct categories can.

Originally Posted by tymejumper

I so got into Queer as Folk when Brian and Justin got it on. It was SO hot I could'nt believe it. I still prefer sex with a woman, but I do so love to look at men! LOL LOL

Is there any other reason for watching that show?
Though my favorite character was always Emmett. And I live in terror of turning into Debbie someday.

Originally Posted by u-dog

Sorry I missed this post Zerbie! no I didn't mean that bi-sexual people can choose who they are attracted to but rather that since they are attracted to both genders they could choose who they had relationships with. So homophobic bisexuals who imagine that their experience is universal also imagine that gay people and straight people have a choice about their partners also.

Ah. You did understand. Sigh. It's that darned "choice" word muddying things up again. Maybe we should put it this way: bisexuals are, among the Gs Ls and Bs, uniquely equipped to make a quick retreat into heterosexual privilege yet still be able to have a fulfilling relationship.

Now that we have very clear open air in this thread, it seems like a safe time to admit something. Troy could really be onto something about bisexuals assuming that gays can avoid same-sex relationships without cost.

When I was a very little girl, I thought that all "homosexuals" were capable of loving either men OR women, since that's how I was, and because it didn't occur to me that other queer folk were not all bisexual. Gasp!
Proving Troy's point, am I? Well, let's see. . . that was in kindergarten. By about age 10, I had figured out that gay people were uniquely responsive only with ONE sex. And since they had no choice in the matter, it seemed all the more important that they not be denied the chance to love and be loved. So, I really don't "get" why anyone - I don't care what sexuality you are - would tell gay people that they have to change or erase an intrinsic part of their own nature and stifle their ability to give and receive love. What could be more cruel than denying love to someone for an entire lifetime?

[Zerbie]

Originally Posted by mjules

Ylso not able to lie about the fact that I'm not lesbian, as I'm not *solely* (or even mostly) attracted to women. It's split right down the middle.

Me too, pretty much.

Now, this movie you and Brent are talkin' about - it's starting to sound really, reeeeeally good. Yummy love scenes? Okay - this movie doesn't have any Nazis in it, does it? (so many have, and I so can't watch that stuff)
If it's Nazi-free, I'm renting it.

[mjules]

Originally Posted by Zerbie

Me too, pretty much.

Now, this movie you and Brent are talkin' about - it's starting to sound really, reeeeeally good. Yummy love scenes? Okay - this movie doesn't have any Nazis in it, does it? (so many have, and I so can't watch that stuff)
If it's Nazi-free, I'm renting it.

Ooooo, it IS reeeeaaalllly good. And since we've been talking about it, I am thinking that a stop into Blockbuster on my way home from work tomorrow is in order, since it's been a while since I saw it and I watched it three times in a row last time I rented it. Maybe I should just buy it already.

And no, no Nazis! Fairly modern setting, I believe, and has to do with rowing teams. I can't wait 'til you see it and tell me what you think!

[glbt_equality]

Originally Posted by Zerbie

As for activism, I've dropped out twice in past years, before because of either something that was directly said about bisexuals being "traitors," or because of a fear that someone would say so. It was like, I have all this passion and energy for the cause, but gay people don't want me, so why am I killing myself for a bunch of people who don't want me around?

I thought I dropped out of activism for good when I got married. The sense that little straight-acting heterosexual privileged me didn't belong anywhere in the gay community was really strong - in my head. Little did I know I would immerse more DEEPLY after that! It was when those marriage amendments swept the elections in 2004 that I thought, Oh my god, that's MY community they're doing this to, I don't give a rat's tail if they want me or not, I'm doing something!!!! I not only signed myself up for LGBT organizational memberships, I signed my husband up as my partner. Even so, I was terrified the first time I went to a gay rights community forum after I got married. I was like: Do I still belong here??

Zerbie - I think that the most anyone could ask of any of us is to be a "part-time" or "now & again" activist -- and hats off to you for the work you have done. It would be hypocritical of me to indict anyone for taking a "break" from activism after I have spent most of my own life on the sidelines. Moreover, I could have just as easily said that gay people don't show up at meetings -- because by and large, people who aren't personally affected by bigotry tend to wonder what all the fuss is about (the "fuss" about LGBT rights).

The heart of my personal revelation had more to do with the "Anti-Gay" activists... and that I'm wondering if their activism might not be fueled in large part by their own personal sexual identity embattlements.

Wouldn't it be remarkable to discover the people we are debating are, in reality, themselves trying to keep at bay their own demons and temptations. Maybe Senator Craig and James Dobson and many (most?) others are hoping, in the way of affirmation, that their struggle against recognizing the humanity of our community will somehow provide them with the strength to keep their own "straight masks" firmly in place!

... and how would the foreknowledge of such a remarkable dynamic inform our own activism? How different would be our approach if we understood, for example that -- "of course he will believe that my lifestyle was a choice... because for him, it was a choice!"

Anyway - that's my thought for the day. And I love the discussion all this has stirred. Of course, there may be no way of knowing for sure, but wouldn't it be incredible to discover that the 80% of all people are bisexual? Then we would really have to ask how 90% of a population (LGBT) could be so oppressed by 10% (totally straight) for so long. Now there's some food for thought!

Peace & love, Troy

[sailaway58]

Originally Posted by glbt_equality

Anyway - that's my thought for the day. And I love the discussion all this has stirred. Of course, there may be no way of knowing for sure, but wouldn't it be incredible to discover that the 80% of all people are bisexual? Then we would really have to ask how 90% of a population (LGBT) could be so oppressed by 10% (totally straight) for so long. Now there's some food for thought!

Peace & love, Troy

I find no comfort here.