One at a time

[keltic63]

Yesterday after church we had a dinner and the kids went outside for an egghunt. I had the chance to sit with some friends and talk. Somehow the conversation with one of the women got to the point of same-sex marriage. She suggested that legal partnerships should be acceptible. I pointed out that the Supreme Court has already stated that "separate is not equal" when it came to southern states wanting to continue with segregated schools. So the conversation continued, and with each point in her argument, I countered, kindly, with the words of truth. she said that she'd like to see in the bible where it says that it's "OK." I offered that eating shrimp and wearing poly-cotton blends aren't "OK" according to the bible. She said "that's old testament" and I said "OK, divorce, there's plenty about that in the NT." I appealed to her reason: Let's say that homosexuality occurs naturally, like left-handedness, or blue-eyes. She agreed. I asked about the "natural" consequences of being straight: meeting someone, commiting to each other, getting married. Then I asked, if homosexuality occurs naturally, then what should gay people expect? I also pointed out that legalizing same-sex marriage would offer civil benefits, and that religious institutions would not be required to perform religious ceremonies if they chose not to. I could tell that it gave her a lot to think about. I hugged her and thanked her that we could talk about it without being angry and hurt.

[Vanessa White]

Your new thread is so timely for me. On Friday, I was sitting with some persons with whom I work, all of whom know that I am lesbian, with a partner and child, and although two of them are Catholic nuns, they treat me respectfully. We were having lunch with a board member from our department, and I commented to one of my co-workers (the nun of the two that is quite embracing) that I had seen Brokeback Mountain this week (she had seen it in the theatre in December). She commented on the sadness of it, and the board member chimed in with "I have no interest in seeing that movie". Now, this story is about me more than her response. Because, under my usual circumstances in a situation where I am uncomfortable to fully express my view, I would have shut up and not said anything else. Instead, on that day, I expressed my feelings on the importance of seeing the film, and that the issues were still contemporary for gay persons today (I think so, anyway.). She did not agree with that either, and went on to tell me how much things have improved, but she definitely does not want gay marriage. Again, I spoke calmly about the scenario of civil rights vs. religious issues regarding marriage, and that if partners are together and committed, shouldn't they be allowed to visit their partner on his/her deathbed even if not a relative? as well as other legal issues. She said that those issues could be resolved under another name besides marriage. It amazes me how much power a mere word can have when for some, the word has more meaning then what the word symbolizes. Anyway, my friends at the table commented after at how well I handled the situation, and the fact is , I like this woman, she is nice, she views things differently than I . However, what saddened me the most is that I don't think it ever occurred to her that the issue could apply to anyone sitting at our table. That hurt- and I could objectively address the issues in a calm fashion, but it still felt personal even though she wouldn't have known it was personal. I made some progress and felt good about that. I guess there is still some "activist" energy in me, although more calm and resolute. WHo knows, am I rambling? Peace, Vanessa

[Daniel]

Keltic and Vanessa,

Kudos to you both of you!

There is a similar and unspoken thread in both your stories that stands out, and that is the fact that marriage isn't, in fact, a religious matter at all. Our constitution provides for the separation of church and state and when marriages are held in church the documentation is a completely legal matter, the sanction of the church another. How they have come to be seen as one and the same is thing is, in my mind, the crux of the matter. Those who oppose 'gay marriage' think the own both words.

"You don't own me......." Lesley Gore

[keltic63]

Originally Posted by Daniel

Keltic and Vanessa,

Kudos to you both of you!

There is a similar and unspoken thread in both your stories that stands out, and that is the fact that marriage isn't, in fact, a religious matter at all. Our constitution provides for the separation of church and state and when marriages are held in church the documentation is a completely legal matter, the sanction of the church another. How they have come to be seen as one and the same is thing is, in my mind, the crux of the matter. Those who oppose 'gay marriage' think the own both words.

"You don't own me......." Lesley Gore

ah yes. that was part of the conversation I had. I've heard that some ministers are refusing to sign marriage certificates as a form of protest: ministers don't want to be "agents of the state" because this is blurring the lines of the church/state separation.

Isn't it funny that the politicians use this issue with all the religious overtones, when, in fact, marriage is a civil contract, often blessed with a religious ceremony.

[Vanessa White]

That separation of the civil vs. religious aspects of it have helped me to discuss the issue with more validity and less emotion (even tho I feel the emotions eating away at me inside) so that I may be taken more seriously as having a valid point. We will just keep plugging away, one at a time like you said, Keltic.

[Mia14]

I think its amazing how angry people are getting over this issue. There's a really wonderful documentary that deals with same-sex marriage, called "Tying the Knot". It goes through how many things that people used to say about interracial marriage are not what we hear about same-sex marriage. It gives me hope that in the future I might be able to marry the woman I love.

I know some people say you don't need to be married in order to be with someone, but I really want to be married. I know it sounds kind of weird, but I'd like to do it the old-fashioned way and ask her father for permission. In reality, she hasn't come out to her father yet because he'd probably kick me out of the house, so I doubt that he'd agree to a marriage.

Us getting married doesn't invalidate heterosexual marriages.