Just don't know what to do....

[Progo35]

PD-

This thread reminded me of a talk I had with my mom when I was eight. I had stolen a marble from school because I liked it so much and there was a whole basket of them, but afterwards I felt terrible and hid it. I didn't tell anyone for months. Then, one saturday I broke down and told my mom. Like U-Dog's dad, my Mom hugged me and said that it was okay, and that she was really proud of me for having such a strong conscience.

I immediately felt MUCH better...it was like a weight that I'd been carrying around with me inside my chest for months had been lifted. I bet that because of your kind, edifying response, your daughter feels the same kind of relief in knowing that you are not angry at her and (hopefully) that this one mistake does not make her a bad person.

[revcobb]

Czeslaw Milosz died in 2004, soon after this poem was published as part 15of his 23 part poem, "Treatise on Theology," in the book "Second Space." Born in Lithuania in 1911, he survived Nazi occupied Warsaw, defected to France in 1951, and began teaching at UC Berkley in 1960. He won the Nobel Prize for literature in 1980. His Catholic faith comes through in a kind of lovers' quarrel with the church. I like his perspective on religion, ritual, and the the human struggle.

15. Religion Comes

Religion comes from our pity for humans.

They are too weak to live without divine protection.

Too weak to listen to the screeching noise of the turning of infernal wheels.

Who among us would accept a universe in which there was not one voice

Of compassion, pity, understanding?

To be human is to be completely alien amid the galaxies.

Which is sufficent reason for erecting, together with others, the temples of an unimaginable mercy.

[pnggrad79]

Thanks, RevCobb, I hope you have found an affirming congregation in Virginia. My partner and I are going to a UCC church in Spring, but are literally starving for some spiritual "meat". We love, love, love the people, but the teaching is lacking in emphasis on spirituality. I guess I need more than just milk.

Jennifer-I hope to heaven you never find yourself in the same situation my daughter found herself in, because she carried this tremendous guilt around for months, and now wishes that she could go back and undo the damage. Grace is always there, but the damage is done, and all we can do now is move on.

Thanks everyone, and please continue praying. You are the best.

[u-dog]

Originally Posted by pnggrad79

Thanks, RevCobb, I hope you have found an affirming congregation in Virginia. My partner and I are going to a UCC church in Spring, but are literally starving for some spiritual "meat". We love, love, love the people, but the teaching is lacking in emphasis on spirituality. I guess I need more than just milk.

PNG, I've heard you say this before and I may even have said this to yOU before... (my brain is growing older by the day)... IS IT POSSIBLE.. that you are called to bring "the meat" to this particular "potluck"? Someone has labored to create the community that draws all of these people that you love together... that was THEIR offering. But you percieve that there is a certain spiritual piece that isn't there. Maybe that perception is an "itch" that the Holy SPirit is inflicting on you so that you will act to fill the need. I can guarantee you that you are NOT the only person who feels this need. Find them and then enrich your community by building something that meets the need. You are SUCH a mature and competant person. Trust your perception! A church isn't a "grocery store" where we have to be happy with whats there or look elsewhere. Its a spiritual "flea market" where we all bring our stuff and trade it around!

Jennifer-I hope to heaven you never find yourself in the same situation my daughter found herself in, because she carried this tremendous guilt around for months, and now wishes that she could go back and undo the damage. Grace is always there, but the damage is done, and all we can do now is move on.

This language about "damage" being done concerns me a little bit. Your daughter hasn't been "damaged" and she hasn't "damaged" anything. She is still perfectly, totally, wonderfully, beautifully "intact". She is unfolding according to God's plan. She made a painful mistep on the journey of life. She exercised poor judgement in the use of her God given gift of sexuality. Clearly, she wishes and you wish that she had chosen differently... but she didn't. Because the two of you (three of you including your wife) have remained open to one another in love and because you remain open to the healing and leading of God... God can and will use her mistep to shape and guide and strengthen her in ways that would not have been possible had she not made her mistake.

Thats the nature of Grace. We make mistakes ... and if we let him/her do it ... God takes those mistakes and turns them into blessings. As you remarked earlier... "All things work together for good for those who trust God" This may be the experience that allows/prepares your daughter to be a resource to someone else ... perhaps to save another persons life. Who knows?

So lose the "damaged" language! She would only have been damaged by this if she, and you and your wife had acted in a way that shut each other out and shut God out. You didn't and as a result she hasn't been damaged... she has been forged and shaped for service to a hurting world!

Thanks everyone, and please continue praying. You are the best.

[pnggrad79]

Udog- I used "damaged" because to me that is what it did to her emotionally, and really in all aspects. She needs to be healed from it. Damage did occur, and from that she needs to be healed and that is where God's grace comes in. Sin always damages and she knows that, but grace heals. That was my point.

[revcobb]

Yes, png, I found a wonderful open and affirming church in central VA. Several folks here are connected to SF. I miss our face-to-face conversations, though. I'm sorry you're having trouble finding a "meaty" church, but I'd have to agree with u-dog that it may be up to you to bring some of the deeper spiritual stuff to the table. God knows you've got the gifts for it!

[pnggrad79]

Udog and Rev,

Would I , a mere congregant, be overstepping my bounds by bringing the "meat" per se? I mean, I tend to approach things with gusto and this church is how shall I say, dry.... I wouldn't even know how to begin! I know what feeds me. I know what I need. I guess I just need to talk to the pastor. She has said she can't be very deep with the general congregation because she says that she can't assume that they understand anything. But what is wrong with ok assuming that and then teaching them and bringing them along? I assume my kids at school don't know anything, so I teach them, and bring them up to speed with where I want them to be. The same thing needs to happen spiritually, don't you think? Maybe I am just impatient. Maybe I just haven't given it time. This church seems to be filled with people who have been burned out on church, left it for various reasons and don't really want to be "preached" at and maybe they want milky sermons that don't carry a lot of weight. I want to hear from God. I don't want daisies and toast. I want steak and potatoes. I am a carnivore!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!ugh!!!!! Can't a lesbian get some good preaching around here?!!!!!

[u-dog]

Originally Posted by pnggrad79

Udog and Rev,

Would I , a mere congregant, be overstepping my bounds by bringing the "meat" per se? I mean, I tend to approach things with gusto and this church is how shall I say, dry.... I wouldn't even know how to begin! I know what feeds me. I know what I need. I guess I just need to talk to the pastor. She has said she can't be very deep with the general congregation because she says that she can't assume that they understand anything. But what is wrong with ok assuming that and then teaching them and bringing them along? I assume my kids at school don't know anything, so I teach them, and bring them up to speed with where I want them to be. The same thing needs to happen spiritually, don't you think? Maybe I am just impatient. Maybe I just haven't given it time. This church seems to be filled with people who have been burned out on church, left it for various reasons and don't really want to be "preached" at and maybe they want milky sermons that don't carry a lot of weight. I want to hear from God. I don't want daisies and toast. I want steak and potatoes. I am a carnivore!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!ugh!!!!! Can't a lesbian get some good preaching around here?!!!!!

Definately speak to the pastor! ask her if she can start a a bible study or prayer group for people who need more grown-up faith. Or ask her if she can help you find resources to start such a group yourself. I don't know what you are looking for exactly but I used a resource out of the United Methodist Church that I liked very much. It was called "Companions in Christ" It explores the nature prayer and the role of Scripture in the life of prayer. It explores a whole range of prayer traditions and practices and gives people the opportunity to practice them together. It can be gotten from Cokesbury or Amazon.

as for meaty preaching... I don't know. You may need to visit less affirming congregations just to get a fix?

[andrewlittle]

Originally Posted by pnggrad79

Udog and Rev,

Would I , a mere congregant, be overstepping my bounds by bringing the "meat" per se? I mean, I tend to approach things with gusto and this church is how shall I say, dry.... I wouldn't even know how to begin! I know what feeds me. I know what I need. I guess I just need to talk to the pastor. She has said she can't be very deep with the general congregation because she says that she can't assume that they understand anything. But what is wrong with ok assuming that and then teaching them and bringing them along? I assume my kids at school don't know anything, so I teach them, and bring them up to speed with where I want them to be. The same thing needs to happen spiritually, don't you think? Maybe I am just impatient. Maybe I just haven't given it time. This church seems to be filled with people who have been burned out on church, left it for various reasons and don't really want to be "preached" at and maybe they want milky sermons that don't carry a lot of weight. I want to hear from God. I don't want daisies and toast. I want steak and potatoes. I am a carnivore!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!ugh!!!!! Can't a lesbian get some good preaching around here?!!!!!

Sigh! I know the feeling. You're promised a banquet at the table, but only find a few crackers and a piece of cheese.

For what it is worth, the pastor at the church in which I interned said essentially the same thing as yours did. I took a stab and said, "you sound kind of sad about that", to which he agreed. I asked him if he couldn't have pidgeon-holed himself by assuming what the church needed at the beginning of his ministry is what they still needed. He looked at me and asked me if I was brave enough to try reaching a deeper level, to which I replied, "Yes." I started two deep Bible studies - one on ethics and Christian living, the other on the mission of the laity - and they were well attended and the participants were very active. He has since ramped up his preaching and teaching.

Not all conversations will go this way, but I know a good number of ministers who feel like they can ONLY deliver dessert because the congregation ain't hungry. Sometimes, they need to see that there are folks out there who need a damn good meal on Sundays because they're starving.

[revcobb]

I've gotta agree with u-dog and andrew. As a pastor, I love it when someone comes up and says, "Y'know, I've been sensing a calling to go deeper. How about if I start a new Bible study/spirituality group/worship experience/some other ministry?" I'd jump at it. Especially since the social and political barriers aren't an issue there. At least I assume they aren't. If you're in the congregation I think you are, it's got a history of activism that's an easy foundation to build on.

Companions in Christ is good--it's based on Stephen Ministry, and is a good model for starting a new group. Other good resources that come to mind: Living the Questions and Nooma. Both use video and can get a new group into some serious conversation on a deep and meaningful level. Of course, that doesn't meet your need for a powerful, high energy worship experience, but as Andrew suggested, sometimes it takes a change in the way the congregation does things to change the way the pastor does things.

Of course, the pastor could be starving for something meaty, too. Frankly, there's not a lot of collegial support for female pastors in that part of Texas, and I'm sure she doesn't have many UCC colleagues close by.

[pnggrad79]

Maybe there is more than meets the eye here, and patience has never been one of my virtues. I will talk with the pastor and see where she is. I love the rabbits we chase here.

You guys are great! Thanks for your advice.

[pnggrad79]

My 16 yo daughter went out with this guy from Virginia last night, who moved to TX this past summer to our neighborhood. He goes to her school and although he is older than she is, he is in her grade level because they start school later than we do here in TX. Anyway, she says he is a Christian unlike the guy she was going out with this summer. I was my typical self and a little paranoid. So I said, "No going to his room, blah, blah, blah." She rolled her eyes, and said, "Mom, please, that's is not going to happen. We're just friends, Quit freaking out." I said, "Moms freak out, it's part of the job description." So I said, "Are his parents going to be there? What is their number? Can I meet them?" She said, "We are going to be at his house for a total of 3 minutes, then going to a movie."

She came home by 10 and said they got to his house, and he said, "Let's take a tour." They came to his room, and he said, "This is my room, and we won't ever come in here." She said he shut off the light, and she said she smiled and whispered, "I love you, Jesus."

I think I like this guy.

[u-dog]

Originally Posted by pnggrad79

My 16 yo daughter went out with this guy from Virginia last night, who moved to TX this past summer to our neighborhood. He goes to her school and although he is older than she is, he is in her grade level because they start school later than we do here in TX. Anyway, she says he is a Christian unlike the guy she was going out with this summer. I was my typical self and a little paranoid. So I said, "No going to his room, blah, blah, blah." She rolled her eyes, and said, "Mom, please, that's is not going to happen. We're just friends, Quit freaking out." I said, "Moms freak out, it's part of the job description." So I said, "Are his parents going to be there? What is their number? Can I meet them?" She said, "We are going to be at his house for a total of 3 minutes, then going to a movie."

She came home by 10 and said they got to his house, and he said, "Let's take a tour." They came to his room, and he said, "This is my room, and we won't ever come in here." She said he shut off the light, and she said she smiled and whispered, "I love you, Jesus."

I think I like this guy.

Didn't the Buddha say, "When the girlfriend is ready, the boyfriend will appear?" He sounds like a nice boy.

Let's all start praying right now that he can get his mind around her two mommies

[pnggrad79]

Oh that's the best part! When she introduced him to us originally last Sunday, she said, "This is my mom and her partner." Later, she said, "Mom, I don't think he comprehended what that meant." This past Friday, when his parents dropped her off,she came in saying, " He wanted to know why Partner's car is always in the drive way and I told him that she lives here." She said he kinda stared at her for a minute and then the "OHHHH!!!!" She said, " Are you ok with that?" He said, "Yeah, sure, it's all good." Later he called and told her that he told his parents and they are cool with it, too.

I love it when my daughter has to come out to her boyfriends....

[Zerbie]

That's very nice.

[pnggrad79]

I asked her one day, "What are you going to do if one day the guy you love refuses to let you come home to see us ( me and my wife) or if you have kids, and he refuses to let your children come to see us?" She said, "Well first of all, when I start to date a guy, it just has to be alright that you are gay. It it ain't, it just doesn't happen between us. Mom there is just no point in going with anyone who doesn't love my mom and who she loves. " I said, "Good for you. I am glad you aren't willing to throw us under the bus." She said, "Why would I? Mom, nobody cares anymore who's gay and who isn't." I wish it were true, especially in the state legislatures. Maybe when the kids get grown and able to vote, we could see a real change in the marriage laws and some real change in equality.

[u-dog]

Originally Posted by pnggrad79

I asked her one day, "What are you going to do if one day the guy you love refuses to let you come home to see us ( me and my wife) or if you have kids, and he refuses to let your children come to see us?" She said, "Well first of all, when I start to date a guy, it just has to be alright that you are gay. It it ain't, it just doesn't happen between us. Mom there is just no point in going with anyone who doesn't love my mom and who she loves. " I said, "Good for you. I am glad you aren't willing to throw us under the bus." She said, "Why would I? Mom, nobody cares anymore who's gay and who isn't." I wish it were true, especially in the state legislatures. Maybe when the kids get grown and able to vote, we could see a real change in the marriage laws and some real change in equality.

Thats exactly what will happen, PNG. Thats why I say that although there are many battles left to fight... the war is already won.